What does the confederate flag mean to you? (2 Viewers)

[Jayrod]

Our new (Confederate) Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

So having a t-shirt or a hat or the flag (symbol) or something means you have to believe everything about that group or culture? Can I wear a star of David and not be Jewish? Can I fly (or even own) a flag with a crescent moon and a single star and not be Islamic? Up until yesterday I drove a Mini Cooper and put a Union Jack symbol on it (to show the car's heritage), but I'm not British and the car itself was made in Germany.

Looking at your avatar, do you believe in everything that the Dark Side stands for, and thus against the Jedi?

You don’t have to believe anything about the group or culture however you shouldn’t be surprise when you are treated as if you do believe in everything about that group or culture.

Great, so the next time someone sees my Dave Matthews Band "firewalker" sticker they are going to assume I like the song Satellite. Or if they see my Rolling Stones "tongue" sticker they'll think I enjoyed their "Dirty Work" album.

No, this is like you having a sticker with the artwork from the Dirty Work album and people assuming you like the Dirty Work album....because you know, the Confederate flag was actually created for and used by the armies that fought against the US government for the right to continue to treat black people like cattle.

You fly the confederate flag, that's the legacy. That's what the flag was created for and that's what it represents.

I was making a joke, but your analogy is off not mine. What's the most well known symbol of the Confederacy, of the Dave Matthews Band, and of The Rolling Stones? The flag isn't associated with the army of the Confederate states at this point in time nearly as much as it is with the Confederacy in general, or as the recent CNN poll shows - to Southern Pride.

Oh, OK. If you say so.

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

 

[matttyl]

I think it's strange to see it flying over a State House. Considering those states left the US during the Civil War, I have no problems with them taking the flag down from State Houses.

Interesting (to me) that you would say this with your avatar picture. Don't get me wrong, I love the Maryland flag and find it to be not only beautiful but also one of the most historically based of all US state flags. Anyway, the "Crossland banner" (the sideways red and white cross) on the Maryland flag was used during the Civil War by Marylanders fighting for the South under Robert E. Lee in the Army of Northern Virginia. The black and gold part of the flag (the Calvert family colors) were used by Marylanders fighting for the North.

 

[General Malaise]

Bobby Jindal continues to fascinate me...I almost feel like he is a creation of The Onion.

Baton Rouge, LA – Louisiana Governor and GOP presidential candidate, Piyush “Bobby” Jindal, 44, spoke with Phil Hemmer via satellite on Fox News’ Happening Now this morning to discuss the ever-growing Confederate flag controversy. However, it wasn’t Jindal’s opinion on what states should do about the flag that had people talking afterwords.

While discussing the historic South Carolina Senate vote to have the flag removed from statehouse grounds, Jindal told Hemmer, “Like the same-sex marriage issue, I believe this should be decided on by the states, not the courts. Let the people’s voices be heard. Like many others who hail from the great Creole state, the Confederate flag is a symbol of my heritage, and that heritage has nothing to do with racism or hate.”

It would seem Bobby is once again trying to put mileage between himself and his family’s immigrant past. It’s no secret that Jindal, the first Indian-American governor in US history, is uncomfortable in his own skin. For years now he has tried to distance himself from his Indian roots, and his remarks this morning are just the latest in a long line of bizarre statements and actions.

Nothing beats this, though.

 

[Joe Summer]

For the record, I'm not offended. But I do recognize that others could be. Who am I to tell others how to feel - especially when the origin of the flag represented rebels who took up arms against my country. And I certainly don't advocate the outright banning of the flag. It just doesn't belong flying over an American government building.

They can feel however they want. Everyone's free to view it as they see fit. But it doesn't belong over a statehouse. Or do you disagree?

I don't really know if it belongs over a statehouse in the south or not? I am not from their and don't have any feelings one way or the other. I find it fascinating people are all up in arms over the flag now (today) as opposed to 10 years ago. I don't view it any differently....

I think it's strange to see it flying over a State House. Considering those states left the US during the Civil War, I have no problems with them taking the flag down from State Houses.

But if Jim Bob Johnson in middle of nowhere Alabama wants to fly it, go for it. I think he's crazy, but whatever.

Good thing they took off of the State house 15 years ago.

It's a distinction without much difference. The Confederate flag is being flown on the State House grounds. Not "over" the government building, but next to it.

 

[Amused to Death]

For the record, I'm not offended. But I do recognize that others could be. Who am I to tell others how to feel - especially when the origin of the flag represented rebels who took up arms against my country. And I certainly don't advocate the outright banning of the flag. It just doesn't belong flying over an American government building.

They can feel however they want. Everyone's free to view it as they see fit. But it doesn't belong over a statehouse. Or do you disagree?

I don't really know if it belongs over a statehouse in the south or not? I am not from their and don't have any feelings one way or the other. I find it fascinating people are all up in arms over the flag now (today) as opposed to 10 years ago. I don't view it any differently....

I think it's strange to see it flying over a State House. Considering those states left the US during the Civil War, I have no problems with them taking the flag down from State Houses.

But if Jim Bob Johnson in middle of nowhere Alabama wants to fly it, go for it. I think he's crazy, but whatever.

Good thing they took off of the State house 15 years ago.

If you say so...

COLUMBIA, S.C. — The future of the Confederate battle flag at the South Carolina State House remained unresolved Wednesday afternoon, as members of the state House of Representatives considered, and then rejected, a number of amendments to a bill that would remove the controversial symbol from the Capitol grounds.

ETA: Oh, you're splitting hairs I see. OK - take if off the State House grounds.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Our new (Confederate) Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

So having a t-shirt or a hat or the flag (symbol) or something means you have to believe everything about that group or culture? Can I wear a star of David and not be Jewish? Can I fly (or even own) a flag with a crescent moon and a single star and not be Islamic? Up until yesterday I drove a Mini Cooper and put a Union Jack symbol on it (to show the car's heritage), but I'm not British and the car itself was made in Germany.

Looking at your avatar, do you believe in everything that the Dark Side stands for, and thus against the Jedi?

You don’t have to believe anything about the group or culture however you shouldn’t be surprise when you are treated as if you do believe in everything about that group or culture.

Great, so the next time someone sees my Dave Matthews Band "firewalker" sticker they are going to assume I like the song Satellite. Or if they see my Rolling Stones "tongue" sticker they'll think I enjoyed their "Dirty Work" album.

No, this is like you having a sticker with the artwork from the Dirty Work album and people assuming you like the Dirty Work album....because you know, the Confederate flag was actually created for and used by the armies that fought against the US government for the right to continue to treat black people like cattle.

You fly the confederate flag, that's the legacy. That's what the flag was created for and that's what it represents.

I was making a joke, but your analogy is off not mine. What's the most well known symbol of the Confederacy, of the Dave Matthews Band, and of The Rolling Stones? The flag isn't associated with the army of the Confederate states at this point in time nearly as much as it is with the Confederacy in general, or as the recent CNN poll shows - to Southern Pride.

Oh, OK. If you say so.

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

People have pride from all over the world. Having southern pride is not the evil you make it out to be.

 

[The Commish]

it's clearly wrong to judge a book by it's cover, but there is nothing wrong with judging people by how they choose to represent themselves to the world.

As long as you "judge" them by the entirety of the presentation and not just one facet.

 

[njherdfan]

Our new (Confederate) Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

So having a t-shirt or a hat or the flag (symbol) or something means you have to believe everything about that group or culture? Can I wear a star of David and not be Jewish? Can I fly (or even own) a flag with a crescent moon and a single star and not be Islamic? Up until yesterday I drove a Mini Cooper and put a Union Jack symbol on it (to show the car's heritage), but I'm not British and the car itself was made in Germany.

Looking at your avatar, do you believe in everything that the Dark Side stands for, and thus against the Jedi?

You don’t have to believe anything about the group or culture however you shouldn’t be surprise when you are treated as if you do believe in everything about that group or culture.

Great, so the next time someone sees my Dave Matthews Band "firewalker" sticker they are going to assume I like the song Satellite. Or if they see my Rolling Stones "tongue" sticker they'll think I enjoyed their "Dirty Work" album.

No, this is like you having a sticker with the artwork from the Dirty Work album and people assuming you like the Dirty Work album....because you know, the Confederate flag was actually created for and used by the armies that fought against the US government for the right to continue to treat black people like cattle.

You fly the confederate flag, that's the legacy. That's what the flag was created for and that's what it represents.

I was making a joke, but your analogy is off not mine. What's the most well known symbol of the Confederacy, of the Dave Matthews Band, and of The Rolling Stones? The flag isn't associated with the army of the Confederate states at this point in time nearly as much as it is with the Confederacy in general, or as the recent CNN poll shows - to Southern Pride.

Oh, OK. If you say so.

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

People have pride from all over the world. Having southern pride is not the evil you make it out to be.

Sure. But why can't it be expressed in any other way than by flying a battle flag of an army who fought to continue slavery?

 

[GoFishTN]

Our new (Confederate) Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

So having a t-shirt or a hat or the flag (symbol) or something means you have to believe everything about that group or culture? Can I wear a star of David and not be Jewish? Can I fly (or even own) a flag with a crescent moon and a single star and not be Islamic? Up until yesterday I drove a Mini Cooper and put a Union Jack symbol on it (to show the car's heritage), but I'm not British and the car itself was made in Germany.

Looking at your avatar, do you believe in everything that the Dark Side stands for, and thus against the Jedi?

You don’t have to believe anything about the group or culture however you shouldn’t be surprise when you are treated as if you do believe in everything about that group or culture.

Great, so the next time someone sees my Dave Matthews Band "firewalker" sticker they are going to assume I like the song Satellite. Or if they see my Rolling Stones "tongue" sticker they'll think I enjoyed their "Dirty Work" album.

No, this is like you having a sticker with the artwork from the Dirty Work album and people assuming you like the Dirty Work album....because you know, the Confederate flag was actually created for and used by the armies that fought against the US government for the right to continue to treat black people like cattle.

You fly the confederate flag, that's the legacy. That's what the flag was created for and that's what it represents.

I was making a joke, but your analogy is off not mine. What's the most well known symbol of the Confederacy, of the Dave Matthews Band, and of The Rolling Stones? The flag isn't associated with the army of the Confederate states at this point in time nearly as much as it is with the Confederacy in general, or as the recent CNN poll shows - to Southern Pride.

Oh, OK. If you say so.

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

You seem more upset about this than anyone else in this thread. Did some Confederates kill one of your ancestors or something?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/06/prof-minnesotas-state-flag-is-racist-too/

Ah hell.

 

[moleculo]

it's clearly wrong to judge a book by it's cover, but there is nothing wrong with judging people by how they choose to represent themselves to the world.

As long as you "judge" them by the entirety of the presentation and not just one facet.

sure, but it's pretty hard to change first impressions.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Good thing they took off of the State house 15 years ago.

It's a distinction without much difference. The Confederate flag is being flown on the State House grounds. Not "over" the government building, but next to it.

There is a distinction and quite a bit was made of the distinction 15 years ago leading up to the compromise. Flying above a government building was considered flying in a position of sovereignty. Moving the flag to a confederate monument on State House grounds was removing it from a position of sovereignty and to a memorial position. Multiple posters keep saying "over a state house", and I feel it necessary to clarify where it actually is.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Good thing they took off of the State house 15 years ago.

It's a distinction without much difference. The Confederate flag is being flown on the State House grounds. Not "over" the government building, but next to it.

There is a distinction and quite a bit was made of the distinction 15 years ago leading up to the compromise. Flying above a government building was considered flying in a position of sovereignty. Moving the flag to a confederate monument on State House grounds was removing it from a position of sovereignty and to a memorial position. Multiple posters keep saying "over a state house", and I feel it necessary to clarify where it actually is.

Hasn't been much discussion of it but Democrats and all were pretty darn satisfied about that decision to move the flag to the front of the capitol. The Senate vote was very similar to the one today and something like 6 of 7 black Senators voted for it.

 

[Jayrod]

Oh, OK. If you say so.


And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

You seem more upset about this than anyone else in this thread. Did some Confederates kill one of your ancestors or something?

Not that I know of. I have just studied the history of the Civil War and American slavery. Both were completely awful, vile things.

In one, men were treated like cattle; bred, beaten, sold, bought and traded like a commodity. In the other, men were killed by the thousands and many thousands more had their limbs cut off from wounds. Entire families and towns were wiped out. Everyone suffered.

And for what? To keep the institution of slavery alive. The whole thing was sick and twisted and disgusting.

For people to celebrate that, to honor the Confederate soldiers, to continue to honor the cause by flying the flag is very disturbing to me. I don't get those that don't understand. I think they are either ignorant or racist. There is no in between. You either don't know or you do know and don't care. In my opinion, the confederate soldiers, generals and their supporters were all criminals both against their nation and humanity. They aren't worthy of honor, but of shame and dishonor. And their symbols should be treated with disdain, not honor.

I'm just very confused as to what people are arguing for/defending. It doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing? What is this "Southern Pride" that uses the Confederate flag, yet doesn't include the Civil War and slavery?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

 

[meanjoegreen]

For people to celebrate that, to honor the Confederate soldiers, to continue to honor the cause by flying the flag is very disturbing to me. I don't get those that don't understand. I think they are either ignorant or racist. There is no in between. You either don't know or you do know and don't care. In my opinion, the confederate soldiers, generals and their supporters were all criminals both against their nation and humanity. They aren't worthy of honor, but of shame and dishonor.

Most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves.

 

[Joe Summer]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

If only you could have found a way to slip "Benghazi" in there somewhere.

 

[Joe Summer]

For people to celebrate that, to honor the Confederate soldiers, to continue to honor the cause by flying the flag is very disturbing to me. I don't get those that don't understand. I think they are either ignorant or racist. There is no in between. You either don't know or you do know and don't care. In my opinion, the confederate soldiers, generals and their supporters were all criminals both against their nation and humanity. They aren't worthy of honor, but of shame and dishonor.

Most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves.

Most soldiers in the Iraq wars didn't own oil refineries.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

If only you could have found a way to slip "Benghazi" in there somewhere.

Awe, boo. I knew that was a bad idea. Substantive replies invited.

 

[timschochet]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as Americans and they are NOT criminals or traitors.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

 

[njherdfan]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

I was wondering when the whole "Democrats were the ones responsible for segregation, you know" thing to come up. Maybe it came up earlier, and I missed it.

Also, the battle flag was put up in SC in the 1960s as an Eff You to the north as the "Democrats" were fleeing the party because they were so frustrated about the commitment to any sort of racial progress.

I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make above. There's no disagreement that the reason the south continued to function as a society where blacks were not treated as human beings was because the Confederacy's leaders were allowed into positions of power as soon as reconstruction ended. Shouldn't that be even more conclusive proof that the Confederacy's flag is not something to be celebrated?

 

[timschochet]

No matter how you feel about slavery, if you were living in Louisiana when it voted to secede, and if you refused to defend the state and actively helped the North, then YOU would be the traitor, not the Confederates. We're talking about defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, and your land. And that is somehow "criminal"? That's crap.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

I was wondering when the whole "Democrats were the ones responsible for segregation, you know" thing to come up. Maybe it came up earlier, and I missed it.

Also, the battle flag was put up in SC in the 1960s as an Eff You to the north as the "Democrats" were fleeing the party because they were so frustrated about the commitment to any sort of racial progress.

I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make above. There's no disagreement that the reason the south continued to function as a society where blacks were not treated as human beings was because the Confederacy's leaders were allowed into positions of power as soon as reconstruction ended. Shouldn't that be even more conclusive proof that the Confederacy's flag is not something to be celebrated?

Ok leave that whole segregation line out of it (and if you notice it's not actually in there), I'm not accusing the Democrats of anything and I mean that. People have repeatedly asked how the flag is even here, it's a losing flag flown by losing losers in the losingest non-cause ever. Yes, but that's how it came to be here today, it was permitted so the North and the South could move on and yes the Northern Democrats - and many Republicans - wanted it. I mentioned Lincoln, McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Nixon, Grant, Hayes. That's 6 GOP presidents. I mentioned 6 Democratic presidents. It was an even deal, they were both "responsible" because the country needed it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as Americans and they are NOT criminals or traitors.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Tim, thanks, I stuck my neck out on that one. Prepared to duck.

 

[timschochet]

And let's stop with the Democrats are responsible for segregation. Conservative southern racists were responsible for segregation. They were Democrats for a long time. When the Democratic Party turned away from their views they became independent and then Republicans. Their grandchildren aren't racist any more but they're still conservative and still Republican.

 

[njherdfan]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as against Americans.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Fixed that for you.

I don't say that every individual soldier from the Confederacy is terrible, but saying you're proud to be associated with them is ridiculous.

 

[Mister CIA]

Bobby Jindal continues to fascinate me...I almost feel like he is a creation of The Onion.

Baton Rouge, LA – Louisiana Governor and GOP presidential candidate, Piyush “Bobby” Jindal, 44, spoke with Phil Hemmer via satellite on Fox News’ Happening Now this morning to discuss the ever-growing Confederate flag controversy. However, it wasn’t Jindal’s opinion on what states should do about the flag that had people talking afterwords.

While discussing the historic South Carolina Senate vote to have the flag removed from statehouse grounds, Jindal told Hemmer, “Like the same-sex marriage issue, I believe this should be decided on by the states, not the courts. Let the people’s voices be heard. Like many others who hail from the great Creole state, the Confederate flag is a symbol of my heritage, and that heritage has nothing to do with racism or hate.”

It would seem Bobby is once again trying to put mileage between himself and his family’s immigrant past. It’s no secret that Jindal, the first Indian-American governor in US history, is uncomfortable in his own skin. For years now he has tried to distance himself from his Indian roots, and his remarks this morning are just the latest in a long line of bizarre statements and actions.

Nothing beats this, though.

Painted by the same guy who does all of the Jesus portraits.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as against Americans.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Fixed that for you.

I don't say that every individual soldier from the Confederacy is terrible, but saying you're proud to be associated with them is ridiculous.

I also don't have that in my post either. My people got here after the turn of the century, I am not of Anglo decent, I am not of that time or ilk, I do not identify with the confederacy and I don't espouse "southern pride" or speak up for State's Rights (which I don't think is even in the constitution, though federalism obviously is). I'm just speaking to the constant question marks in this thread about, "er, what's this flag doing here anyway when the south plainly lost." That's how, everyone agreed to move on.

 

[timschochet]

Saints, I would add to your explanation that historians can be pretty powerful long term, and that the Lost Cause movement is the most successful historical revisionism in the history of this country. Much credit should also be given to DW Griffith and even more to Margaret Mitchell, Clark Gable, and Vivian Leigh for defining decades of American cultural viewpoint about the Civil War era.

 

[njherdfan]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

I was wondering when the whole "Democrats were the ones responsible for segregation, you know" thing to come up. Maybe it came up earlier, and I missed it.

Also, the battle flag was put up in SC in the 1960s as an Eff You to the north as the "Democrats" were fleeing the party because they were so frustrated about the commitment to any sort of racial progress.

I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make above. There's no disagreement that the reason the south continued to function as a society where blacks were not treated as human beings was because the Confederacy's leaders were allowed into positions of power as soon as reconstruction ended. Shouldn't that be even more conclusive proof that the Confederacy's flag is not something to be celebrated?

Ok leave that whole segregation line out of it (and if you notice it's not actually in there), I'm not accusing the Democrats of anything and I mean that. People have repeatedly asked how the flag is even here, it's a losing flag flown by losing losers in the losingest non-cause ever. Yes, but that's how it came to be here today, it was permitted so the North and the South could move on and yes the Northern Democrats - and many Republicans - wanted it. I mentioned Lincoln, McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Nixon, Grant, Hayes. That's 6 GOP presidents. I mentioned 6 Democratic presidents. It was an even deal, they were both "responsible" because the country needed it.

Really? I haven't seen anyone asking that. It seems pretty clear how it got to this point. Now it needs to come down (it needed to come down a long time ago, but here we are). Going into long digressions about the history behind it reminds me of the reps in S.C's house today, offering pointless amendments as a way of avoiding the fact that we're in 2015 and a state is still (not technically!) flying the flag of a nation whose founding principle was the right to own slaves.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, I would add to your explanation that historians can be pretty powerful long term, and that the Lost Cause movement is the most successful historical revisionism in the history of this country. Much credit should also be given to DW Griffith and even more to Margaret Mitchell, Clark Gable, and Vivian Leigh for defining decades of American cultural viewpoint about the Civil War era.

I'll also add that Tim (I do believe) knows his business when it comes to the CW, I defer to the thread by him on that subject.

I think of the Lost Cause concept as classically romantic in nature, and as we all knows those appeals can be extremely powerful even centuries down the road.

 

[timschochet]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as against Americans.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Fixed that for you.I don't say that every individual soldier from the Confederacy is terrible, but saying you're proud to be associated with them is ridiculous.

First off they were Americans too. The correct name of their government was the Confederate States of America. They never stopped being Americans. So while it's true that they fought Americans, so did the Union army. Second, though I am not from the South hell yeah I am proud of their exploits as Americans. For 4 years they held off forces much greater than their own through incredible efforts of heroism. When I read of extraordinary men like Lee, Jackson, Stuart, Gorgas, Pickett, and the soldiers that followed them, or the citizens of Vicksburg who survived on grass before surrendering, etc, I get proud. Americans are pretty damn tough.

 

[Mr. Cross]

I hope all of you heritage folk has your family torn apart tortured and killed for generations so you can appreciate an African perspective of Southern pride.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm going to try to take a shot (foolishly I'm sure) at explaining the cognitive dissonance here. I probably agree on 90% of how most of the people here arguing against the flag here feel, but some seem confused how the flag came to remain even after the confederacy lost the war.

People like to bring up Nazi Germany as a comparison. Ok, Nazi Germany's flag was a party flag. The flag like the party was eradicated. Boom, [dusts hands], gone. The Allies fought for complete, unconditional surrender and won it.

In the South after the war, the party that drove the South and the Confederacy, the Democratic Party, was allowed to continue. The surrender was not unconditional, unlike WW2.

When Reconstruction started things started out very harshly, ex-confederates who did not take a loyalty oath could not vote or run for office. Democrats were by and large excluded from office, only Republicans could run. What developed was that the Union / US was faced with a future in which the Southern states were not really becoming States or part of the Union again but rather just angry wards.

The agreement at Appomattox - called the Gentlemen's Agreement - was itself based on concession and reconciliation. The North and the South were brothers who nearly destroyed each other fighting.

As the South continued to wane the US realized that reconciliation would be the key. This was always Lincoln's policy and it was lost during the term of Andrew Johnson, but it was picked up again by the hero President US Grant. With the election of President Rutherford Hayes, the South - and the Democratic Party as part of it and as its leadership - was welcomes back into the Union.

The key word then and for a long time was "reconciliation." All these things that people are pulling their hair for and gnashing teeth on was an accepted fact as part of US policy, reconciliation. And that policy has continued until now, and continues at this moment. Republican and Democratic presidential candidates alike traveled to the South and appealed to regional pride, even the song Dixie was played. This included people like Teddy Roosevelt, William McKinley, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR.

Here is a picture of JFK being presented with a confederate flag.

This was a deal that made the Democratic Party whole and competitive. Yes the South largely went Republican after Nixon, though of course Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won much of the South anyway. But the reality is the Democratic Party would not have survived to this day without it and thrived as a result through 1999 at least (when Clinton won LA, FL, KY, WVA, AR & TN, he also won GA in 92).

So people ask, well how did we get here? We got here after 150 years of compromise and reconciliation following 4+ years of the bloodiest killing and devastation that most of us thankfully cannot imagine, but it is still the worst this country has ever seen. It should not be surprising that then people wanted to put it behind them. The North, and the Democratic Party, accepted the battle flag as part of that.

I was wondering when the whole "Democrats were the ones responsible for segregation, you know" thing to come up. Maybe it came up earlier, and I missed it.

Also, the battle flag was put up in SC in the 1960s as an Eff You to the north as the "Democrats" were fleeing the party because they were so frustrated about the commitment to any sort of racial progress.

I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make above. There's no disagreement that the reason the south continued to function as a society where blacks were not treated as human beings was because the Confederacy's leaders were allowed into positions of power as soon as reconstruction ended. Shouldn't that be even more conclusive proof that the Confederacy's flag is not something to be celebrated?

Ok leave that whole segregation line out of it (and if you notice it's not actually in there), I'm not accusing the Democrats of anything and I mean that. People have repeatedly asked how the flag is even here, it's a losing flag flown by losing losers in the losingest non-cause ever. Yes, but that's how it came to be here today, it was permitted so the North and the South could move on and yes the Northern Democrats - and many Republicans - wanted it. I mentioned Lincoln, McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Nixon, Grant, Hayes. That's 6 GOP presidents. I mentioned 6 Democratic presidents. It was an even deal, they were both "responsible" because the country needed it.

Really? I haven't seen anyone asking that. It seems pretty clear how it got to this point. Now it needs to come down (it needed to come down a long time ago, but here we are). Going into long digressions about the history behind it reminds me of the reps in S.C's house today, offering pointless amendments as a way of avoiding the fact that we're in 2015 and a state is still (not technically!) flying the flag of a nation whose founding principle was the right to own slaves.

It's entirely possible or even likely I misread Jayrod's post.

For people to celebrate that, to honor the Confederate soldiers, to continue to honor the cause by flying the flag is very disturbing to me.

I took that to mean, essentially, how did this come to be?

And Hooper, further up:

This said, I think they're silly. There may be some folks clinging to some sense of good-ole-times, but the confederate flag is a symbol of institutionalized bigotry IMO.

At the racetrack last Saturday night I lost count of the bumper stickers, t-shirts, and random confederate flags all over the place. Disappointing in some ways. Not sure how to react to all of them. I just tried to ignore it as much as I could. This said, I think the vast majority of people there didn't embrace it. Not sure. Just a hunch. Its not like I could read their minds.

That was in PA btw. It just seems like people are mystified how these things are here, what are they doing here when the South plainly lost. And then all of a sudden people seem dismayed or shocked at the presence of these flags and the question arises, what are these people thinking, are they really that hateful of others? I thought there could be a dichotomy between what they felt and how others felt when seeing the flag.

I guess maybe you are correct though, I clearly either over or under thought this one because perhaps the answer is obvious.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Our new (Confederate) Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

So having a t-shirt or a hat or the flag (symbol) or something means you have to believe everything about that group or culture? Can I wear a star of David and not be Jewish? Can I fly (or even own) a flag with a crescent moon and a single star and not be Islamic? Up until yesterday I drove a Mini Cooper and put a Union Jack symbol on it (to show the car's heritage), but I'm not British and the car itself was made in Germany.

Looking at your avatar, do you believe in everything that the Dark Side stands for, and thus against the Jedi?

You don’t have to believe anything about the group or culture however you shouldn’t be surprise when you are treated as if you do believe in everything about that group or culture.

Great, so the next time someone sees my Dave Matthews Band "firewalker" sticker they are going to assume I like the song Satellite. Or if they see my Rolling Stones "tongue" sticker they'll think I enjoyed their "Dirty Work" album.

No, this is like you having a sticker with the artwork from the Dirty Work album and people assuming you like the Dirty Work album....because you know, the Confederate flag was actually created for and used by the armies that fought against the US government for the right to continue to treat black people like cattle.

You fly the confederate flag, that's the legacy. That's what the flag was created for and that's what it represents.

I was making a joke, but your analogy is off not mine. What's the most well known symbol of the Confederacy, of the Dave Matthews Band, and of The Rolling Stones? The flag isn't associated with the army of the Confederate states at this point in time nearly as much as it is with the Confederacy in general, or as the recent CNN poll shows - to Southern Pride.

Oh, OK. If you say so.

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway? I mean is there Northern Pride and Western Pride and Midwestern Pride? No, just the South is so special.

Then what is Southern Pride if not a celebration of the south's history. And what is that history? Oh, just a separatist entity that fought against the United States of America to keep other people like animals. That's what it is, what it was, and what it will always be. Southern Pride is just a euphemism for support of the Confederacy and its ideals centered around white supremacy. Those that INSIST on flying the flag to support "Southern Pride" still support the confederate ideals of a separate nation and its right to own slaves. They may not want it to mean that, but to the educated and informed, that's what it means.

If I decide to flip people off and say that it is simply a friendly greeting, does that mean the very definition of the bird has changed? No, it still means F-U to other people. And that's what flying the confederate flag is saying. F-U to black people, "I want to celebrate my right to support the heritage of slave owning states".

Luckily, we live in the USA where that is a protected right. But it is also the right of the rest of us to call someone out. A spade is a spade and the confederate flag and Southern Pride are racist at their core.

Black people changed the most offensive word I know by removing the -er and adding an -a to the end of it. Did that change the meaning? Is everyone that uses the word a racist?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

And what the hell is "Southern Pride", anyway?

S-E-C. S-E-C. S-E-C

 

[Slapdash]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as Americans and they are NOT criminals or traitors.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Tim, thanks, I stuck my neck out on that one. Prepared to duck.

Good posts from both you in here.

 

[Christo]

I hope all of you heritage folk has your family torn apart tortured and killed for generations so you can appreciate an African perspective of Southern pride.

I'm sure you similarly hope all Americans have their families run from their lands, slaughtered, given small pox, and forced to live on reservations so they can appreciate a Native American perspective of Manifest Destiny.

 

[timschochet]

I hope all of you heritage folk has your family torn apart tortured and killed for generations so you can appreciate an African perspective of Southern pride.

Can't say I have. But I did lose many family members in the Holocaust, and I honestly try to understand everyone's perspective.

 

[Thunderlips]

Are Confederate Flag/Southern Pride enthusiasts as eager to defend the right of the Mexican Flag being flown by "Mexican Pride" enthusiasts? If the situation presented itself, I wonder if they'd be fully behind a Mexican Flag being flown in over State/Federal land/buildings in The United States.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Of all Americans, 59% see it as a symbol of Southern pride. 33% see it as a symbol of racism. 5% say both equally. 5% say neither, and 1% had "no opinion".

That is not what that survey question asks

Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?

38% is the floor on how many see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Ignoring the rounding error some percentage of the other 65% (59% + 5% neither + 1% no opinion) can also see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism even it is not their primary view. The survey doesn't tell us if that is 0% or 100% so it can't answer the question of how many Americans see it as a symbol of racism beyond at least 38%.

 

[Jayrod]

No matter how you feel about slavery, if you were living in Louisiana when it voted to secede, and if you refused to defend the state and actively helped the North, then YOU would be the traitor, not the Confederates. We're talking about defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, and your land. And that is somehow "criminal"? That's crap.

Bad choice of states. Louisiana had a bunch of people that sided with the union. It was more like Missouri than South Carolina. The Union held portions of Louisiana throughout the CW. There were Inion sympathizers and abolitionists all cross the South, not to mention, you know, slaves.

The Confederate soldiers were indeed traitors and either owned slaves or supported the right to own slaves.

Tell me, Tim, how much sympathy do you show towards the German people who watched their Jewish neighbors get dragged off to concentration camps?

 

[jonessed]

Of all Americans, 59% see it as a symbol of Southern pride. 33% see it as a symbol of racism. 5% say both equally. 5% say neither, and 1% had "no opinion".

That is not what that survey question asks

Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?

38% is the floor on how many see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Ignoring the rounding error some percentage of the other 65% (59% + 5% neither + 1% no opinion) can also see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism even it is not their primary view. The survey doesn't tell us if that is 0% or 100% so it can't answer the question of how many Americans see it as a symbol of racism beyond at least 38%.

Some also might see it as a giant napkin, but it's not their primary view.

 

[timschochet]

No matter how you feel about slavery, if you were living in Louisiana when it voted to secede, and if you refused to defend the state and actively helped the North, then YOU would be the traitor, not the Confederates. We're talking about defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, and your land. And that is somehow "criminal"? That's crap.

Bad choice of states. Louisiana had a bunch of people that sided with the union. It was more like Missouri than South Carolina. The Union held portions of Louisiana throughout the CW.There were Inion sympathizers and abolitionists all cross the South, not to mention, you know, slaves.

The Confederate soldiers were indeed traitors and either owned slaves or supported the right to own slaves.

Tell me, Tim, how much sympathy do you show towards the German people who watched their Jewish neighbors get dragged off to concentration camps?

Woah, wait a minute. Louisiana did NOT have a "bunch of people" who sided with the Union. And the only reason the Union held portions of Louisiana was because the navy invaded New Orleans.

Nor were there "Union Sympathizers and abolitionists" all over the South.

As to the bolded, not much. But I can distinguish between them and the men who fought bravely and died for the German armed forces. And if I was German, I would be proud of many of them, while despising the SS and the Nazis.

 

[jonessed]

No matter how you feel about slavery, if you were living in Louisiana when it voted to secede, and if you refused to defend the state and actively helped the North, then YOU would be the traitor, not the Confederates. We're talking about defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, and your land. And that is somehow "criminal"? That's crap.

Bad choice of states. Louisiana had a bunch of people that sided with the union. It was more like Missouri than South Carolina. The Union held portions of Louisiana throughout the CW.There were Inion sympathizers and abolitionists all cross the South, not to mention, you know, slaves.

The Confederate soldiers were indeed traitors and either owned slaves or supported the right to own slaves.

Tell me, Tim, how much sympathy do you show towards the German people who watched their Jewish neighbors get dragged off to concentration camps?

Woah, wait a minute. Louisiana did NOT have a "bunch of people" who sided with the Union. And the only reason the Union held portions of Louisiana was because the navy invaded New Orleans.Nor were there "Union Sympathizers and abolitionists" all over the South.

As to the bolded, not much. But I can distinguish between them and the men who fought bravely and died for the German armed forces. And if I was German, I would be proud of many of them, while despising the SS and the Nazis.

Very, very few people are going to step in and get shot over a neighbor being dragged to a prison camp. You guys are setting a pretty high bar here.

 

[Jayrod]

No matter how you feel about slavery, if you were living in Louisiana when it voted to secede, and if you refused to defend the state and actively helped the North, then YOU would be the traitor, not the Confederates. We're talking about defending your neighbors, your family, your friends, and your land. And that is somehow "criminal"? That's crap.

Bad choice of states. Louisiana had a bunch of people that sided with the union. It was more like Missouri than South Carolina. The Union held portions of Louisiana throughout the CW.There were Inion sympathizers and abolitionists all cross the South, not to mention, you know, slaves.

The Confederate soldiers were indeed traitors and either owned slaves or supported the right to own slaves.

Tell me, Tim, how much sympathy do you show towards the German people who watched their Jewish neighbors get dragged off to concentration camps?

Woah, wait a minute. Louisiana did NOT have a "bunch of people" who sided with the Union. And the only reason the Union held portions of Louisiana was because the navy invaded New Orleans.Nor were there "Union Sympathizers and abolitionists" all over the South.

As to the bolded, not much. But I can distinguish between them and the men who fought bravely and died for the German armed forces. And if I was German, I would be proud of many of them, while despising the SS and the Nazis.

Very, very few people are going to step in and get shot over a neighbor being dragged to prison. You guys are setting a pretty high bar here.

Just trying to get a feel for where pride ends and shame begins.

 

[timschochet]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

 

[tdoss]

Just so I understand the new teaching...we're saying that most, if not all, of those who fought on the Confederate side did so because they either owned slaves or fought simply for the right to own slaves?

There's now very little chance that most were fighting to keep the Federal gov't from dictating their lives from afar (much like the Revolutionary War)?

 

[timschochet]

Just so I understand the new teaching...we're saying that most, if not all, of those who fought on the Confederate side did so because they either owned slaves or fought simply for the right to own slaves?

There's now very little chance that most were fighting to keep the Federal gov't from dictating their lives from afar (much like the Revolutionary War)?

Actually, neither is the correct answer IMO.

The correct answer is that most Americans who fought in the Civil War, on both sides, fought because it was a matter of life and death. Events and motivations overwhelmed them, and so they fought on their side because their loved ones and friends fought alongside them and because it was a matter of life and death. For most of the war very very few soldiers gave serious thought as to their reasons for fighting other than to win or die.

And this is the ultimate truth for most wars in history.

 

[In The Zone]

Mjolnirs, on 08 Jul 2015 - 3:30 PM, said:

For the record, I'm not offended. But I do recognize that others could be. Who am I to tell others how to feel - especially when the origin of the flag represented rebels who took up arms against my country. And I certainly don't advocate the outright banning of the flag. It just doesn't belong flying over an American government building.

They can feel however they want. Everyone's free to view it as they see fit. But it doesn't belong over a statehouse. Or do you disagree?

I don't really know if it belongs over a statehouse in the south or not? I am not from their and don't have any feelings one way or the other. I find it fascinating people are all up in arms over the flag now (today) as opposed to 10 years ago. I don't view it any differently....

I think it's strange to see it flying over a State House. Considering those states left the US during the Civil War, I have no problems with them taking the flag down from State Houses.

But if Jim Bob Johnson in middle of nowhere Alabama wants to fly it, go for it. I think he's crazy, but whatever.

Good thing they took off of the State house 15 years ago.