What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

I hate slippery slope arguments. Hate hate hate! You look at each situation separately and stop trying to apply the same rules for everything.

Yes the battle flag should be removed from the state Capitol. No the Stars and Bars shouldn't be removed from Fort Sumter because there's historical context. Yes some streets named after racists should be renamed. No, statues of confederate icons should not be removed.

It's really not that difficult.

Why do you get to choose? And what is the basis of your choice? And why is your basis greater or better than someone else's? And why should some guy in California get a say anyway for something in South Carolina - you are the guy that wants smaller states to lose their power in the Congress because your state is more important. Now you want them to do what you say. And you are the one that hates slippery slope arguments? Seems to me you're sliding down one like Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation.

I'm hopeful that one day California actually becomes the Federal government. How ya like them slaloms?

 

[msommer]

Not at all. Do you? Those are two very different things. In fact in the very next sentence he says "I'm not sure there is anything we can/should do about it now." Yeah, he's saying there may be nothing we should do now.

I would say OPM saying that he thought it never should have gone up in the first place qualifies as thinking it would be reasonable or appropriate to change it, no? Perhaps it wasn't accurate to say that I remembered "many" people thinking that, but at least a couple did, including me. And when someone said they thought maybe the feds would withhold funding to state and local parks/rec who had these sorts of things on display I said great, sounds good to me.

And nobody was laughing at it as impossible. That is a quick rewrite of history. One person maybe laughed at the idea of blowing a mountain up, but nobody's proposing that as far as I can tell
And the NAACP isn't asking for it to be "changed", they're asking for it to be removed. Quote - "The Atlanta branch of the NAACP is calling for the immediate removal of all Confederate symbols from Stone Mountain Park". They've suggested sand blasting it off.

And again, I don't see anyone who posted that they felt it "reasonable or appropriate" to remove or change the carvings in any way.

Yeah you seem to be right- nobody really said they thought it was reasonable/appropriate to change it. My bad. Although I'd also say that nobody was laughing at it as impossible, either.

As for what I think - if I lived in Georgia I'd obviously consider it an embarrassment and I'd want it changed. It's a celebration of the men who fought to retain slavery. It confirms so many negative stereotypes about the the state and the region. But I don't live in Georgia, so I don't really care that much what they do. If they want to continue to salute their losing effort to keep black people as slaves, so be it. They can do what they want, and the rest of the country/planet will perceive them accordingly.

So I guess you'd feel the same about Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA - and most if not all other memorials and such? You already posted your thoughts on the stained glass windows at the National Cathedral. See why I shook my head a few weeks ago when you said that this was a "slippery slope argument"? I think you called it an "Icy elevator shaft".

And if you're right?

Where does it end? How much history will be rewritten? Mt. Rushmore has depictions of men who owned other men - should that be sand blasted as well?

Where do you think it ends?

I don't know, and that's kinda the point. Where do you think it should end?

Getting rid of the confederate flag on government/public properties sounds great to me. I'm cool with those municipalities deciding amongst themselves on various statues/memorials a la what Tobias said earlier. I live in MN, so I don't have to live with it much thankfully.

If in the end all of these statues and memorials went away I'd be totaly fine with it. They're never going to sandblast Mount Rushmore, so that's an absurdity I don't need to consider.

Someone once said that they would never get the Dukes of Hazzard off of TV either.

Just sayin'

Are you saying that's a bad thing?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I like this tidbit:

TV Land already is getting angry calls from Dukes Of Hazzard fans after the network this week yanked the show out of rotation. The Viacom network had only begun airing repeats of the decades-old CBS series on June 10.

We have removed it from the schedule and have no further comment,” A TV Land rep told Deadline.

The Viacom-owned network’s decision follows by about a week Warner Bros. Consumer Products’ announcement it would stop participating in Confederate flag merchandising. Warner Bros. had produced the CBS series that first aired in the late 1970s-early ’80s, and co-starred a car named General Lee that was festooned with a large Confederate flag on its roof.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Wait. Are we sure slavery was bad? Just want to get a clarification on that.

I went blueberry picking once. Once. I would have much preferred someone else do it for me.

 

[msommer]

I hate slippery slope arguments. Hate hate hate! You look at each situation separately and stop trying to apply the same rules for everything.

Yes the battle flag should be removed from the state Capitol. No the Stars and Bars shouldn't be removed from Fort Sumter because there's historical context. Yes some streets named after racists should be renamed. No, statues of confederate icons should not be removed.

It's really not that difficult.

Why do you get to choose? And what is the basis of your choice? And why is your basis greater or better than someone else's? And why should some guy in California get a say anyway for something in South Carolina - you are the guy that wants smaller states to lose their power in the Congress because your state is more important. Now you want them to do what you say. And you are the one that hates slippery slope arguments? Seems to me you're sliding down one like Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation.

I'm hopeful that one day California actually becomes the Federal government. How ya like them slaloms?

I like down hill better

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Not at all. Do you? Those are two very different things. In fact in the very next sentence he says "I'm not sure there is anything we can/should do about it now." Yeah, he's saying there may be nothing we should do now.

I would say OPM saying that he thought it never should have gone up in the first place qualifies as thinking it would be reasonable or appropriate to change it, no? Perhaps it wasn't accurate to say that I remembered "many" people thinking that, but at least a couple did, including me. And when someone said they thought maybe the feds would withhold funding to state and local parks/rec who had these sorts of things on display I said great, sounds good to me.

And nobody was laughing at it as impossible. That is a quick rewrite of history. One person maybe laughed at the idea of blowing a mountain up, but nobody's proposing that as far as I can tell
And the NAACP isn't asking for it to be "changed", they're asking for it to be removed. Quote - "The Atlanta branch of the NAACP is calling for the immediate removal of all Confederate symbols from Stone Mountain Park". They've suggested sand blasting it off.

And again, I don't see anyone who posted that they felt it "reasonable or appropriate" to remove or change the carvings in any way.

Yeah you seem to be right- nobody really said they thought it was reasonable/appropriate to change it. My bad. Although I'd also say that nobody was laughing at it as impossible, either.

As for what I think - if I lived in Georgia I'd obviously consider it an embarrassment and I'd want it changed. It's a celebration of the men who fought to retain slavery. It confirms so many negative stereotypes about the the state and the region. But I don't live in Georgia, so I don't really care that much what they do. If they want to continue to salute their losing effort to keep black people as slaves, so be it. They can do what they want, and the rest of the country/planet will perceive them accordingly.

So I guess you'd feel the same about Monument Avenue in Richmond, VA - and most if not all other memorials and such? You already posted your thoughts on the stained glass windows at the National Cathedral. See why I shook my head a few weeks ago when you said that this was a "slippery slope argument"? I think you called it an "Icy elevator shaft".

And if you're right?

Where does it end? How much history will be rewritten? Mt. Rushmore has depictions of men who owned other men - should that be sand blasted as well?

Where do you think it ends?

I don't know, and that's kinda the point. Where do you think it should end?

Getting rid of the confederate flag on government/public properties sounds great to me. I'm cool with those municipalities deciding amongst themselves on various statues/memorials a la what Tobias said earlier. I live in MN, so I don't have to live with it much thankfully.

If in the end all of these statues and memorials went away I'd be totaly fine with it. They're never going to sandblast Mount Rushmore, so that's an absurdity I don't need to consider.

Someone once said that they would never get the Dukes of Hazzard off of TV either.

Just sayin'

Are you saying that's a bad thing?

Again - orange car. Cool horn. Jumped in front of green screens. And Daisy.

Of course it was a bad thing. I want my childhood back. They made Indiana Jones 4 and I said nothing... The Red Sox won the World Series and I said nothing.... They took away the General Lee and I said nothing.....

..... I really don't know what comes next, but the Bourbon Supremacy movement is going to get really annoyed soon and start doing things. Like only grabbing two ice cubes. Then it's on.

 

[cstu]

Nothing awesome about DoH had anything to do with the racist flag on it. Replacing it with the American flag would be an improvement.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Again - orange car. Cool horn. Jumped in front of green screens. And Daisy.

Of course it was a bad thing. I want my childhood back. They made Indiana Jones 4 and I said nothing... The Red Sox won the World Series and I said nothing.... They took away the General Lee and I said nothing.....

..... I really don't know what comes next, but the Bourbon Supremacy movement is going to get really annoyed soon and start doing things. Like only grabbing two ice cubes. Then it's on.

At least we all enjoyed the Star Wars prequels. And all the edits to the originals.

 

[cstu]

Wait. Are we sure slavery was bad? Just want to get a clarification on that.

I went blueberry picking once. Once. I would have much preferred someone else do it for me.

Even strawberry picking leaves much to be desired. That's why I generally leave it to today's slaves - illegal immigrants.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Again - orange car. Cool horn. Jumped in front of green screens. And Daisy.

Of course it was a bad thing. I want my childhood back. They made Indiana Jones 4 and I said nothing... The Red Sox won the World Series and I said nothing.... They took away the General Lee and I said nothing.....

..... I really don't know what comes next, but the Bourbon Supremacy movement is going to get really annoyed soon and start doing things. Like only grabbing two ice cubes. Then it's on.

At least we all enjoyed the Star Wars prequels. And all the edits to the originals.

See there is just so much destruction of the way things used to be when they were perfect that I can't even keep track anymore. Just watch eventually a black guy will be President.... wait.

No, next thing you know, someone will give Rosie O'Donnell a TV talk show...... wait

No, next thing you know, they will remake RoboCop...... wait

No, next thing you know, they will start trying to remake Escape from New York..... wait.

Oh screw it. My childhood has been rewritten. Viva la' revolution. Arm yourselves boys. Bourbon, a good sturdy glass and readily available ice cubes need be at the ready. It's going to be a long war.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Wait. Are we sure slavery was bad? Just want to get a clarification on that.

I went blueberry picking once. Once. I would have much preferred someone else do it for me.

Even strawberry picking leaves much to be desired. That's why I generally leave it to today's slaves - illegal immigrants.

My wife thinks a fun autumn weekend thing for the family is to go apple picking. My response every year is, you know, there are people that do that for you now.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I don't even require the ice cubes. Flex.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Anybody post this video yet? Goober in Arkansas rips traitor flags from some woman's truck.

http://m.4029tv.com/news/video-shows-men-ripping-confederate-flags-from-truck-while-driving-in-fort-smith/34149646

Shirtless wonder is a moron for sure but the real star of the video is the truck drivin' lady.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I don't even require the ice cubes. Flex.

Ah, a neat guy. It's ok. We're good.

 

[Slapdash]

Prefer rocks, at least for the first cup.

Four Roses = SPEED

 

[Yankee23Fan]

See, we've gone from our racist history to a more important topic over an ultimate good thing. This movement has legs.

Until you drink like 6 of them and then your legs are at best tripping hazards.

 

[matttyl]

See, we've gone from our racist history to a more important topic over an ultimate good thing. This movement has legs.

Until you drink like 6 of them and then your legs are at best tripping hazards.

Racists.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

See, we've gone from our racist history to a more important topic over an ultimate good thing. This movement has legs.

Until you drink like 6 of them and then your legs are at best tripping hazards.

Racists.

I really didn't mean any harm.

 

[Mr. Cross]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

I will not eat Kentucky Fried Chicken with the racist slave master and feel stupid now for eating the Lees fried chicken that has his name. Guess I will have to eat at Popeyes now.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I don't even require the ice cubes. Flex.

Ah, a neat guy. It's ok. We're good.

Actually kind of depends on a number of factors: the bourbon, proof, if its hot, etc. I'm flexible though.

 

[msommer]

Anybody post this video yet? Goober in Arkansas rips traitor flags from some woman's truck.

http://m.4029tv.com/news/video-shows-men-ripping-confederate-flags-from-truck-while-driving-in-fort-smith/34149646

Shirtless wonder is a moron for sure but the real star of the video is the truck drivin' lady.

Nope, the real star is the presenter

 

[TheIronSheik]

Luckily everyone in the North can be considered saints. Makes these black and white issues so much easier to get outraged by on the internet.

 

[msommer]

Luckily everyone in the North can be considered saints. Makes these black and white issues so much easier to get outraged by on the internet.

An error has occured

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Luckily everyone in the North can be considered saints. Makes these black and white issues so much easier to get outraged by on the internet.

Link?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Luckily everyone in the North can be considered saints. Makes these black and white issues so much easier to get outraged by on the internet.

Tu quoque

 

[GoFishTN]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

 

[Kal El]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

Technically, the Founding Fathers were traitors to the British Crown, but we won, so their opinion doesn't matter.

 

[cstu]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

No, because the Scottish people were never given a choice to merge with England as it was a decision by the King and rubberstamped by Parliament.

 

[msommer]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

No, because the Scottish people were never given a choice to merge with England as it was a decision by the King and rubberstamped by Parliament.

They just had a referendum a few months ago though

 

[Mjolnirs]

...

secede

 

[jonessed]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

No, because the Scottish people were never given a choice to merge with England as it was a decision by the King and rubberstamped by Parliament.

They just had a referendum a few months ago though

Definitely traitors.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Would Scottish leaders have been traitors if they had seceded from the UK?

Ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?

 

[GilbertGrape]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Just like George Washington.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Just like George Washington.

This again?

 

[GilbertGrape]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Just like George Washington.

This again?

Truth hurts?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Just like George Washington.

This again?

Truth hurts?

Washington's tooth hurts for sure.

 

[GilbertGrape]

Neat historical anecdotes aside, those soldiers and generals fought for the wrong side.

The second Lee turned down Lincoln and chose to fight for his "country" he became a traitor.

Just like George Washington.

This again?

Truth hurts?

Washington's tooth hurts for sure.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I can't wait until the last Confederate flag is removed........racism will cease to exist.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can't wait until the last Confederate flag is removed........racism will cease to exist.

That is what the racists and their sympathizers will tell us. Just like what they were saying two months ago.

 

[meanjoegreen]

So why fight the Civil War if the North was willing to give the South slaves? Racism?

The North didn't give the South slaves, they sold their slaves to the South once slavery began to be abolished in the North.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Anybody post this video yet? Goober in Arkansas rips traitor flags from some woman's truck.

http://m.4029tv.com/news/video-shows-men-ripping-confederate-flags-from-truck-while-driving-in-fort-smith/34149646

Shirtless wonder is a moron for sure but the real star of the video is the truck drivin' lady.

For me the real star was the female reporter.

 

[AAABatteries]

Is this thread as much of a cluster#### as I imagine it is?

 

[chauncey]

So if we are banning the Confederate flag, the Dukes of Hazzard, and any statue, monument, and record of those racist slave owning southerners from before any of our great grandparents were alive then what are we supposed to do with the racist and slave owning northerners and their history/legacy?

In the words of Abraham Lincoln:

I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. [Great applause.]

The north participated in slavery too?

 

[Jayrod]

That's a HOT history take.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So now we're cycling back to the Lincoln Was A Racist Too angle. Cool.

 

[TobiasFunke]

That's a HOT history take.

Crazy that this thread is 49 pages long and nobody's pointed out that the founding fathers owned slaves and that the north was not a perfect utopia of racial harmony during the 1800s. This changes EVERYTHING.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

That's a HOT history take.

Crazy that this thread is 49 pages long and nobody's pointed out that the founding fathers owned slaves and that the north was not a perfect utopia of racial harmony during the 1800s. This changes EVERYTHING.

With that information, I think we should put up MORE memorials to the Souf.

 

[Sammy3469]

STAY CLASSY OKC!

http://images.politico.com/global/2015/07/16/150726_confederate_flags_obama_1160_gty_956x519.jpg

 

[TobiasFunke]

STAY CLASSY OKC!

http://images.politico.com/global/2015/07/16/150726_confederate_flags_obama_1160_gty_956x519.jpg

#KD2DC

 

[Sammy3469]

STAY CLASSY OKC!

http://images.politico.com/global/2015/07/16/150726_confederate_flags_obama_1160_gty_956x519.jpg

#KD2DC

Pretty sure this shouldn't sway him as they're just honoring their heroic ancestors