What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[TobiasFunke]

"They can join this other group" is not an answer to the question "why can't they join your group." It's changing the subject so you don't have to admit to being discriminatory.

I can see I'm getting nowhere. You appear to be more interested in protecting people's ability to adorn gravestones with confederate flags (something that's actually not a right- the owner of the cemetery property is the one who makes that call in every instance, not the descendants of the dead) than with the fact that people are using the symbol as one of hatred and racism constantly.

If you want to continue to be linked to hatred and racism, that's your business. But stop trying to convince people that your motivations are decent and inclusive. They may well have been at one point- I don't doubt you at all. But you lost the ability to plead ignorance about how the symbol is being used by many other people and what it means to black people in America a long time ago. You're now someone who thinks those undeniable negative associations and repercussions are outweighed by your interest in protecting some vague notion of "heritage."

Wait -- are you attacking the SCV because they won't let go of the Battle Flag? Or because of exclusionary admission policy?

Do you feel like similar exclusionary organizations (which are legion) are not problematic, because at least they don't use the Confederate Battle Flag for anything?

Because they won't let go of the Battle Flag.

Their argument, as I understand it, is that they are an organization motivated by a deep desire to "preserve history and legacy," and the flag is a part of that. However if that's their true motivation there's no need to exclude those who want to further those interests. If instead they're just a bunch of guys in a social club like a Masonic lodge, great, have fun. I'm all for that kind of thing. But what does that have to do with keeping and protecting the widespread usage of a flag of the Confederacy and the anti-civil rights movement?

 

[timschochet]

Isn't it time to forgive Longstreet, Mjolnirs? He was a great general, unfairly treated.

 

[Slapdash]

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior ...

You're putting words in their mouths. This is something you think, not objective truth. The Civil War ended 150 years ago, and the present-day members of the SCV did not grow up in the antebellum South. Therefore, I think it is more reasonable to believe that SCV members in 2015 do not espouse the mindsets and beliefs of their great-great-great grandfathers.

And frankly, though you posit a negative motive, the reason the SCV doesn't allow women is likely nothing more than benign carry-over from "the way its always been, being there is a UDC and all". Seems likely to me that the two organizations often work together and share resources (people) anyhow ... perhaps those directly involved don't see the need to formally merge?

The SCV's admission criteria doesn't take money out of any minority's pockets, doesn't prevent minority school admissions or employment, etc. It's nothing more than free association, isn't it? Kind of a social club, or a Masonic Lodge? You're ascribing fairly heinous motives to the SCV without demonstrating any harm done.

I would even disagree with your earlier "Can't claim the moral high ground!" take. Who's claiming moral high ground? The next time anyone from the SCV goes public with a "we've got the moral high ground" position will be the first time I've ever noticed. It seems, really, that the SCV kind of keeps to itself and does get into political scraps. I will grant that the SCV might be a bigger deal and more ingrained in the social fabric of South Carolina than it is in New Orleans -- though there are re-enactors and such locally.

... as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

Many, many -- if not most -- organizations limit membership based on more or less arbitrary criteria. Gulf War vets can't join the Vietnam Veterans of America, though their service was certainly meritorious. Students from Southern University can't join LSU's Student Government Association (and vice versa) even though both school are located in the same city, share similar admission requirements, and are located close enough for easy travel between the two campuses..

OK for me to join the alumni association of a public college I didn't attend? I do have a college degree from another public institution, after all ... so I can't be kept out on merits.

Some really odd arguments over the last page.

 

[Doug B]

But what does that have to do with keeping and protecting the widespread usage of a flag of the Confederacy and the anti-civil rights movement?

Why conflate the two? I know you, Tobias Funke, feel like the Battle Flag can't credibly stand for anything but (fundamentally) racism ... but if others earnestly disagree, let 'em be. You don't have to hang with them, and vice versa. They won't affect your life, and -- unlike the Klan or Westboro Baptist Church -- they'll stay out of your way and out of the ways of those they might offend with their symbolism.

That actually points to a reason the SCV might want to proscribe admissions (though not in the way you meant): they want to be able to keep the SCV from becoming a puppet organizations of something like the KKK or Aryan Brotherhood. I would bet that, in 2015, being an open racist gets one summarily barred from SCV participation.

 

[matttyl]

Tobias, I honestly don't understand the uproar you're attempting to create with the SCV.

My son was born 13 days ago, and no matter how much he or I or his mother love the mission and ideals of the Girl Scouts, he'll never be able to join that group. Maybe he'll grow up and want nothing more than to help in "building girls of courage, confidence, and character, who make the world a better place" (their mission), but he'll never be able to be a member. Oh, the outrage!!!

As much as I'm a huge advocate for the Police force in general and the great work (most of them) do, I can not be a member of the Fraternal Order of Police. I can't even be in the Fraternal Order of Police Auxiliary. Since all the Order wants to do is "to improve the working conditions of law enforcement officers and the safety of those they serve through education, legislation, information, community involvement, and employee representation" wouldn't they want to include any and every person willing?

 

[jonessed]

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior ...

You're putting words in their mouths. This is something you think, not objective truth. The Civil War ended 150 years ago, and the present-day members of the SCV did not grow up in the antebellum South. Therefore, I think it is more reasonable to believe that SCV members in 2015 do not espouse the mindsets and beliefs of their great-great-great grandfathers.

And frankly, though you posit a negative motive, the reason the SCV doesn't allow women is likely nothing more than benign carry-over from "the way its always been, being there is a UDC and all". Seems likely to me that the two organizations often work together and share resources (people) anyhow ... perhaps those directly involved don't see the need to formally merge?

The SCV's admission criteria doesn't take money out of any minority's pockets, doesn't prevent minority school admissions or employment, etc. It's nothing more than free association, isn't it? Kind of a social club, or a Masonic Lodge? You're ascribing fairly heinous motives to the SCV without demonstrating any harm done.

I would even disagree with your earlier "Can't claim the moral high ground!" take. Who's claiming moral high ground? The next time anyone from the SCV goes public with a "we've got the moral high ground" position will be the first time I've ever noticed. It seems, really, that the SCV kind of keeps to itself and does get into political scraps. I will grant that the SCV might be a bigger deal and more ingrained in the social fabric of South Carolina than it is in New Orleans -- though there are re-enactors and such locally.

... as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

Many, many -- if not most -- organizations limit membership based on more or less arbitrary criteria. Gulf War vets can't join the Vietnam Veterans of America, though their service was certainly meritorious. Students from Southern University can't join LSU's Student Government Association (and vice versa) even though both school are located in the same city, share similar admission requirements, and are located close enough for easy travel between the two campuses..

OK for me to join the alumni association of a public college I didn't attend? I do have a college degree from another public institution, after all ... so I can't be kept out on merits.

Some really odd arguments over the last page.

Some people just get angry and start lashing out all over the place. It tends to lead to weird tangents.

 

[Doug B]

Yes a wonderful tribute to all of the traitors who fought against their country for the right of their state to secede so they could still keep black people like cattle.

If that's the heritage you want to celebrate....

Memorialization is not the same as celebration, and is not an affirmation of the goals of an erstwhile secessionist government. Germany, for example, has a holiday similar to Memorial Day. The graves of German WWII veterans still get flowers and commemorations (however, no Nazi symbolism is present). But no one says "Grandpa Fritz fought for a nation that sanctioned the Holocaust -- get those flowers off his grave!".

 

[Mjolnirs]

So much to reply to, so little time.

Don't take my absence in replying as avoiding the subject over the next few days.

I have a big family event this weekend that, from here forward, will severely limit my message board time.

 

[TobiasFunke]

But what does that have to do with keeping and protecting the widespread usage of a flag of the Confederacy and the anti-civil rights movement?

Why conflate the two? I know you, Tobias Funke, feel like the Battle Flag can't credibly stand for anything but (fundamentally) racism ... but if others earnestly disagree, let 'em be. You don't have to hang with them, and vice versa. They won't affect your life, and -- unlike the Klan or Westboro Baptist Church -- they'll stay out of your way and out of the ways of those they might offend with their symbolism.

That actually points to a reason the SCV might want to proscribe admissions (though not in the way you meant): they want to be able to keep the SCV from becoming a puppet organizations of something like the KKK or Aryan Brotherhood. I would bet that, in 2015, being an open racist gets one summarily barred from SCV participation.

I'm not the one that conflated the two- that was the SCV. And they don't stay out of the way of those that might be offended by their symbolism. mjolnirs loves to point to the Confederate flags at grave sites- are they staying out of the way of, say, a black family on its way to mourn a great-grandparent buried nearby who was lynched? Or any black family in mourning, really?

Look, others aren't seeing the inconsistency I'm seeing. That's fine, I'm happy to drop it. Plenty of other evidence of hatred and racism associated with the flag to discuss. The thing about the flag being draped on the Atlanta MLK center and the food truck getting torched for its anti-flag efforts both popped into my Twitter timeline within a half-hour of each other.

 

[Jayrod]

Yes a wonderful tribute to all of the traitors who fought against their country for the right of their state to secede so they could still keep black people like cattle.

If that's the heritage you want to celebrate....

Memorialization is not the same as celebration, and is not an affirmation of the goals of an erstwhile secessionist government. Germany, for example, has a holiday similar to Memorial Day. The graves of German WWII veterans still get flowers and commemorations (however, no Nazi symbolism is present). But no one says "Grandpa Fritz fought for a nation that sanctioned the Holocaust -- get those flowers off his grave!".

Fair point on memorialization instead of celebration.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with putting flowers on their graves. However, putting the symbol of the organization that stood for exactly what I posted is memorialization of that as opposed to the person who died. Drop the flag and it isn't a memorilization of the Confederacy, but a lost loved one.

 

[Doug B]

Mjolnirs loves to point to the Confederate flags at grave sites- are they staying out of the way of, say, a black family on its way to mourn, say, a great-grandparent buried nearby who was lynched?

A flag stuck in the ground is harmless,. It's not the same as, say, a gaggle of supremacist activists getting in the black family's face as they walk through the cemetery grounds. The Confederate Battle Flag, in situ, can be viewed by an African-American without harm being done. You walk by it briskly, and that's it.

Seeing a flag on a grave plot, in and of itself, is problematic? That grave does not stand for the united people of a state the way, say, a state capitol building does. Now, if a racist jack-hole knows where the black family's grand-dad's grave is, and he goes and puts a Battle Flag on that grave -- yeah, very different thing.

 

[Doug B]

However, putting the symbol of the organization that stood for exactly what I posted is memorialization of that as opposed to the person who died. Drop the flag and it isn't a memorilization of the Confederacy, but a lost loved one.

From your point of view, however. No problem that this is your truth, but it's not everyone's. You have an aversion to that symbol that others don't.

And for those with a different perspective from your own, they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as members of polite society based solely** on the knowledge that they've placed a Battle Flag on an ancestor's grave.

** though I realize it is human nature to extrapolate from limited information and draw conclusions.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Mjolnirs loves to point to the Confederate flags at grave sites- are they staying out of the way of, say, a black family on its way to mourn, say, a great-grandparent buried nearby who was lynched?

A flag stuck in the ground is harmless,. It's not the same as, say, a gaggle of supremacist activists getting in the black family's face as they walk through the cemetery grounds. The Confederate Battle Flag, in situ, can be viewed by an African-American without harm being done. You walk by it briskly, and that's it.

Seeing a flag on a grave plot, in and of itself, is problematic? That grave does not stand for the united people of a state the way, say, a state capitol building does. Now, if a racist jack-hole knows where the black family's grand-dad's grave is, and he goes and puts a Battle Flag on that grave -- yeah, very different thing.

I don't know for certain how a black person feels when they see the flag in the ground or anywhere else, and neither do you. I only know that a significant majority (72% according to this poll) see it as a symbol of racism. That by itself allows me to conclude that I don't like people who value whatever notion of heritage they connect with the flag over antagonizing that majority of black people with a symbol of racism.

And the notion that a symbol in a grave site can't be problematic sure seems baseless. After all there has to be a reason there's zero Nazi symbolism at German WWII graveyards and memorial sites.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hum yeah Henry about that avatar if yours, been doing a little research and as it turns out.... you *do* associate yourself with all aspects of that symbol you post under, don't you?

Saints:

I view Henry Ford as an innovative but deeply flawed man who was absolutely a racist living in a racist society, privileged in ways that he didn't even understand as a white man living in that time.

Yeah, I absolutely associate myself with all aspects of that, and hope regularly to be able to become a better person than that. And while I put Henry Ford as my board name, in an effort to remind myself to try not to be a narcissistic, privileged ###hole when I respond to people, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over his name being removed from a dinner.

Ford wasn't all bad. He at one point tried to: Pay his workers more, give them health insurance, and lower the price of the Model T all at the same time. Ford's shareholders filed a derivative action against him to prevent all that, and won. God Bless America.

I agree. But he was deeply flawed as a human being.

 

[Doug B]

I don't know for certain how a black person feels when they see the flag in the ground or anywhere else, and neither do you.

I'm talking about harm, not about feelings or offense. That's our disconnect. There may, however, be no single covering rule about inanimate symbolic objects causing harm, A burning cross on a private lawn causes direct intimidation, for example. A flag placed at a grave is different because it is not "aimed" at other people. It's presence in someone's view is incidental. IMHO, at a graveyard it's not reasonable to interpret a discreet gravetopper as a public "your kind not welcome" signal. YMMV.

After all there has to be a reason there's zero Nazi symbolism at German WWII graveyards and memorial sites.

Germany's line of thinking, as I understand it, is that they didn't prohibit displays of Nazism to avoid offending people. Denazification was/is a complicated issue, but the perceived dangers of Nazi symbolism were originally articulated and addressed while many ex-Nazis were alive and active in German society. There was valid concern that Nazism could rise again from the ashes. There is no similar concern for discreet display of the Battle Flag in 2015 -- there will be no rolling back of the 13th Amendment or the 1964 Civil Rights act or anything like that.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

 

[jonessed]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

 

[jonessed]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

 

[jonessed]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

I agree, but we live in a polarized society that thrives on instant gratification. Hard to get around that.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

I agree, but we live in a polarized society that thrives on instant gratification. Hard to get around that.

I'd argue that it's pretty easy in this context, just no one's doing it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

I think it's fairly clear at this point why people disagree. The flag is seen by a large majority of black people as a symbol of racism and perhaps a longing for the South's segregated past. And I think most everyone understands that there are a lot of people that don't intend to make that statement by flying the flag. But at this point, its impossible for anyone to not be aware of the fact that a large majority of black people see it that way. Thus, it seems that some people value heritage or honoring deceased relatives or whatever else it is they gain when they fly the flag over the now well-established negative consequence of making black people feel unwelcome or discriminated against (at this point they can't plead ignorance about that consequence, intended or not). Other people don't understand how someone could possibly make that choice. That's why they are being, to use your word, "demonized." I don't think it would have been the case 5 years ago or even one year ago, but at this point it's fair to assume knowledge of how your action will be interpreted by black people, whether the animosity is intended or not.

That's what I see, anyway. I'd be happy to hear someone who thinks there's more to it explain that to me. I promise I'll be open-minded.

 

[Henry Ford]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

I think it's fairly clear at this point why people disagree. The flag is seen by a large majority of black people as a symbol of racism and perhaps a longing for the South's segregated past. And I think most everyone understands that there are a lot of people that don't intend to make that statement by flying the flag. But at this point, its impossible for anyone to not be aware of the fact that a large majority of black people see it that way. Thus, it seems that some people value heritage or honoring deceased relatives or whatever else it is they gain when they fly the flag over the now well-established negative consequence of making black people feel unwelcome or discriminated against (at this point they can't plead ignorance about that consequence, intended or not). Other people don't understand how someone could possibly make that choice. That's why they are being, to use your word, "demonized." I don't think it would have been the case 5 years ago or even one year ago, but at this point it's fair to assume knowledge of how your action will be interpreted by black people, whether the animosity is intended or not.

That's what I see, anyway. I'd be happy to hear someone who thinks there's more to it explain that to me. I promise I'll be open-minded.

You can't tell me that the disagreement is "fairly clear" and then say that it's over "whatever else it is they gain when they fly the flag."

 

[Henry Ford]

That "whatever else" is what makes this important to them. I mean, I can guess that "whatever else" includes some need to feel like they haven't been following the wrong path for decades. The desire to feel like this flag they've flown - and their mothers and fathers have flown, and their grandparents have flown, hasn't been the family crest of racism. That might be something. That having to take it down because it represents racism and bigotry in an unceremonious act of derision feels like the mob is trampling over their entire lives. And that's a real thing - and a major shift in life for these people. It's been decades coming for people who want it to come down, but it's been pretty quick for people to realize they're suddenly on the wrong side of the debate.

I fall on the side of taking down the flag - but I can certainly see why some people who aren't gigantic racist scumbags (or at least not moreso than the rest of us) are a little freaked out.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

Well put.

I do my best.

It pains me to see political arguments reduced to demonizing the other side. We're all just trying to get along in this crazy world, man. About time someone just said "hey, I know we disagree, but let's try to figure out why instead of just deciding to call each other names."

I think it's fairly clear at this point why people disagree. The flag is seen by a large majority of black people as a symbol of racism and perhaps a longing for the South's segregated past. And I think most everyone understands that there are a lot of people that don't intend to make that statement by flying the flag. But at this point, its impossible for anyone to not be aware of the fact that a large majority of black people see it that way. Thus, it seems that some people value heritage or honoring deceased relatives or whatever else it is they gain when they fly the flag over the now well-established negative consequence of making black people feel unwelcome or discriminated against (at this point they can't plead ignorance about that consequence, intended or not). Other people don't understand how someone could possibly make that choice. That's why they are being, to use your word, "demonized." I don't think it would have been the case 5 years ago or even one year ago, but at this point it's fair to assume knowledge of how your action will be interpreted by black people, whether the animosity is intended or not.

That's what I see, anyway. I'd be happy to hear someone who thinks there's more to it explain that to me. I promise I'll be open-minded.

You can't tell me that the disagreement is "fairly clear" and then say that it's over "whatever else it is they gain when they fly the flag."

The only benefits I've heard associated with flying the flag are vague references to concepts like "heritage" and "southern pride" along with claims that it honors long-dead relatives. I would welcome the chance to read a clearer and more logical explanation of the benefit derived from flying the flag. But I've read most of this 54 page thread and I haven't been given that chance yet. As I said in my post I'm happy to hear someone explain it to me and I promise to be open-minded about it.

 

[Doug B]

I would welcome the chance to read a clearer and more logical explanation of the benefit derived from flying the flag.

Unfair standard -- logic absolutely cannot be applied to this situation. You don't believe that the opinions of many African-Americans on the Battle Flag are based on cold mathematical logic, I am sure.

A black person raised in, say, a pre-modern culture in Africa -- with no exposure to American culture or history -- would not instantly feel aversion upon being presented with a Confederate Battle Flag. That association has to be culturally learned. It's not an instinctual human aversion such as physical pain, getting too close to flame, noxious odors, etc.

I realize that the house understands all this, but I am making a point -- that the Battle Flag is granted its symbolism by observers. The symbolism is not intrinsic to the flag. I feel that is important because standards of propriety and offense change over time. It is often the case when those who are not offended by a symbol or action (e.g. standards of dress) coexist with those who are offended by the same. It's a challenge for both society and the law (when applicable) to balance the competing standards.

Therefore to me, when evaluating the propriety of a symbol or action at a point in time, it makes sense to consider above all the level of physical harm, economic harm, and impingement of freedom (whether by society or the government). Given that, I feel there should be consideration of the way a symbol is used and the context in which it is used -- even though that complicates matters and prevents singular covering rules regarding the social acceptability of a given symbol. I can't think of another way to balance the desires (not needs) of all involved other than to apply case-by-case evaluations of symbol usage. To me, passers-by observing a 6" x 9" Confederate Battle Flag on a gravestone is a far, far different matter than loud gathering mob, shouting down African-American speakers and carrying huge Battle Flags on the SC State Grounds as that same flag is ceremonially lowered from public land.

Others mileage may vary.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I would welcome the chance to read a clearer and more logical explanation of the benefit derived from flying the flag.

Unfair standard -- logic absolutely cannot be applied to this situation. You don't believe that the opinions of many African-Americans on the Battle Flag are based on cold mathematical logic, I am sure.

A black person raised in, say, a pre-modern culture in Africa -- with no exposure to American culture or history -- would not instantly feel aversion upon being presented with a Confederate Battle Flag. That association has to be culturally learned. It's not an instinctual human aversion such as physical pain, getting too close to flame, noxious odors, etc.

I realize that the house understands all this, but I am making a point -- that the Battle Flag is granted its symbolism by observers. They are not intrinsic to the flag. I feel that is important because standards of propriety and offense change over time. It is often the case when those who are not offended by a symbol or action (e.g. standards of dress) coexist with those who are offended by the same. It's a challenge for both society and the law (when applicable) to balance the competing standards.

Therefore to me, when evaluating the propriety of a symbol or action at a point in time, it makes sense to consider above all the level of physical harm, economic harm, and impingement of freedom (whether by society or the government). Given that, I feel there should be consideration of the way a symbol is used and the context in which it is used -- even though that complicates matters and prevents singular covering rules regarding the social acceptability of a given symbol. I can't think of another way to balance the desires (not needs) of all involved other than to apply case-by-case evaluations of symbol usage. To me, passers-by observing a 6" x 9" Confederate Battle Flag on a gravestone is a far, far different matter than loud gathering mob, shouting down African-American speakers and carrying huge Battle Flags on the SC State Grounds as that same flag is ceremonially lowered from public land.

Others mileage may vary.

I agree with all of this, well said.

Replace "logical" with "fleshed out" or "detailed" or whatever other word you like, then. My point is this: I've not heard an explanation of the benefit a person derives from flying the flag in an average, mostly context-neutral situation (say from one's car or in one's front yard) that comes within a mile of the obvious costs associated with that sort of behavior- reminding black people of the deeply ingrained heritage and culture of racism and making them feel less welcome in your town, state, region or whatever. Despite the protests of others in this thread, at some point it becomes acceptable and reasonable to "demonize" certain behavior even if nobody is physically harmed by it. I'm looking for a well-articulated reason why this behavior doesn't deserve that treatment. I haven't heard one yet. I don't need one I agree with, I just need one that I can understand. And you can't just say "well we're all different people with different values, so can't you just accept that people value certain things differently?" Because I can come up with a list of behaviors a mile long that no decent person would dismiss, differences or not.

 

[Hooper31]

Went to the King of the Wing races last night at Evergreen Speedway in Monroe, WA. One of the sprint cars was decorated with a large confederate flag on the front wing. Just looked odd. Hard not to notice. Dude was black-flagged in the feature.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Is it bad that whenever I see someone with a confederate flag my first thought is in-breeders?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people.

I never said inbreeders are monsters, more like uneducated and unaware.

 

[Fennis]

Guy burns and tramples confederate flag at a flag pride rally at Stone Mountain

http://imgur.com/fDoeH1T

 

[Fennis]

No surprise here, protect the flag

http://i.imgur.com/knFLjw1.jpg

 

[chauncey]

Nothing more homosexual than a bunch of fat middle aged white guys from the midwest and California pretending to be upset about a flag. Oh, and Tobias. You are a disgrace to the old north state. I'm guessing your family must have moved down from Ohio or Pennsylvania when you were a kid. No chance a native Carolinian could be such a #####. (p-u-s-s-y)

Frankly, if you are black (Arizona Ron, maybe Fennis?) or your ancestors were from the South you have a right to an opinion on the Confederate flag. Otherwise you are just talking out of your ###.

Carry on sheep.

 

[General Tso]

Guy burns and tramples confederate flag at a flag pride rally at Stone Mountain

http://imgur.com/fDoeH1T

For some reason that picture led my mind to this thought... People think the term redneck comes from Southern farmers getting burnt necks because of all the time spent under the blazing hot sun. The word, however, is rooted in something more interesting, and more relevant as respects the flag issue.

In Scotland in the 1640s, the a group of "Covenanters" rejected rule by Bishops, often signing manifestos using their own blood. Some wore red cloth around their neck to signify their position, and were called rednecks by the Scottish ruling class to denote that they were the rebels in what would come to be known as The Bishop's War. Eventually, the term began to mean simply "Presbyterian". Later this term was used to denote the large number of Scottish immigrants who settled in the pre-revolutionary American South.

I hate to generalize behaviors in any region or culture, but it's interesting that the South was founded, in part, by a group of people known for being fiercely loyal to their heritage, very stubborn, and committed to broadcasting their beliefs visually in the form of a symbolic piece of cloth.

 

[squistion]

Nothing more homosexual than a bunch of fat middle aged white guys from the midwest and California pretending to be upset about a flag. Oh, and Tobias. You are a disgrace to the old north state. I'm guessing your family must have moved down from Ohio or Pennsylvania when you were a kid. No chance a native Carolinian could be such a #####. (p-u-s-s-y)

Frankly, if you are black (Arizona Ron, maybe Fennis?) or your ancestors were from the South you have a right to an opinion on the Confederate flag. Otherwise you are just talking out of your ###.

Carry on sheep.

Similarly, if you are Jewish or your ancestors were from Germany, you have a right to an opinion on the Swastika. Otherwise, you are just talking out of your hat.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Has this wedding pic been posted yet? http://imgur.com/w1fgTRK

That kid is now his own cousin-in-law

 

[General Tso]

Has this wedding pic been posted yet? http://imgur.com/w1fgTRK

That kid is now his own cousin-in-law

LOL. He got dressed up for the occasion. And is he dipping? Nothing completes the "you may kiss the bride" moment like a pinch of Copenhagen.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Has this wedding pic been posted yet? http://imgur.com/w1fgTRK

That kid is now his own cousin-in-law

LOL. He got dressed up for the occasion. And is he dipping? Nothing completes the "you may kiss the bride" moment like a pinch of Copenhagen.

Just ask Woz

 

[squistion]

Has this wedding pic been posted yet? http://imgur.com/w1fgTRK

That kid is now his own cousin-in-law

From the comments at link:

skunkydrunk

pssssssssst! y'all lost...time to throw in the flag

 

[msommer]

Guy burns and tramples confederate flag at a flag pride rally at Stone Mountain

http://imgur.com/fDoeH1T

For some reason that picture led my mind to this thought... People think the term redneck comes from Southern farmers getting burnt necks because of all the time spent under the blazing hot sun. The word, however, is rooted in something more interesting, and more relevant as respects the flag issue.

In Scotland in the 1640s, the a group of "Covenanters" rejected rule by Bishops, often signing manifestos using their own blood. Some wore red cloth around their neck to signify their position, and were called rednecks by the Scottish ruling class to denote that they were the rebels in what would come to be known as The Bishop's War. Eventually, the term began to mean simply "Presbyterian". Later this term was used to denote the large number of Scottish immigrants who settled in the pre-revolutionary American South.

I hate to generalize behaviors in any region or culture, but it's interesting that the South was founded, in part, by a group of people known for being fiercely loyal to their heritage, very stubborn, and committed to broadcasting their beliefs visually in the form of a symbolic piece of cloth.

Did they have slaves?

 

[urbanhack]

Has this wedding pic been posted yet? http://imgur.com/w1fgTRK

That kid is now his own cousin-in-law

the groom's best man's cousin has a black friend.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Nothing more homosexual than a bunch of fat middle aged white guys from the midwest and California pretending to be upset about a flag. Oh, and Tobias. You are a disgrace to the old north state. I'm guessing your family must have moved down from Ohio or Pennsylvania when you were a kid. No chance a native Carolinian could be such a #####. (p-u-s-s-y)

Frankly, if you are black (Arizona Ron, maybe Fennis?) or your ancestors were from the South you have a right to an opinion on the Confederate flag. Otherwise you are just talking out of your ###.

Carry on sheep.

Thanks, my friend I'm not a native Carolinian and never said I was. But reading comprehension issues aside, you seem like a kind, intelligent and open-minded person. I'm delighted to have made your acquaintance. I look forward to more of your thoughtful insight in the coming weeks and months.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I can see I'm getting nowhere. You appear to be more interested in protecting people's ability to adorn gravestones with confederate flags than with the fact that people are using the symbol as one of hatred and racism constantly.

But you lost the ability to plead ignorance about how the symbol is being used by many other people and what it means to black people in America a long time ago.

I don't think you've seen me pleading ignorance at all.I am more concerned with my ability to remember these men than I am with the use of the flag for hatred. I can do nothing about the hatred use other than voice my disagreement with it and be an example of what I represent as an alternative to them. So, correct, you are getting nowhere.

mjolnirs loves to point to the Confederate flags at grave sites- are they staying out of the way of, say, a black family on its way to mourn a great-grandparent buried nearby who was lynched? Or any black family in mourning, really?

Most of the cemeteries with Confederate veterans wouldn't usually have blacks buried in them. Most are back in the woods on private property and are family cemeteries, and all of them are generally old cemeteries. This doesn't really answer what you are saying, but I figured I would point it out.A couple of years ago my father and I were the next county over searching for my G-G-Grandfather's grave and were in an old cemetery looking at headstones while a black woman was putting flowers on a grave. She saw the SCV license plate on our car and came over to tell us we weren't going to have any luck because we were in the old black cemetery. She then directed us to the old cemetery the whites were buried in.

The only benefits I've heard associated with flying the flag are vague references to concepts like "heritage" and "southern pride" along with claims that it honors long-dead relatives. I would welcome the chance to read a clearer and more logical explanation of the benefit derived from flying the flag. But I've read most of this 54 page thread and I haven't been given that chance yet. As I said in my post I'm happy to hear someone explain it to me and I promise to be open-minded about it.

Benefit?So, when I fly a US flag, what is my benefit? Every year when I put up the Ft. Sullivan flag in honor of Carolina Day, I didn't realize I was doing it for my benefit. Am I supposed to be getting a benefit from my avatar?

I've expressed my point of view a couple of times in this thread. I explained why I am in the SCV and my view on my heritage. I've also said that I know not everyone will understand. If you've read it, and you don't ... well, there you go.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I would bet that, in 2015, being an open racist gets one summarily barred from SCV participation.

To me, passers-by observing a 6" x 9" Confederate Battle Flag on a gravestone is a far, far different matter than loud gathering mob, shouting down African-American speakers and carrying huge Battle Flags on the SC State Grounds as that same flag is ceremonially lowered from public land.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Isn't it time to forgive Longstreet, Mjolnirs? He was a great general, unfairly treated.

Agreed. I have no problem with Longstreet.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I appreciate the info, mjolnirs. If a flag helps you remember your ancestors, that's great. I'd consider that a "benefit." And of course ultimately the cost/benefit determination on whether, when and where to do something is yours alone. All I can do is point out that I think flying it publicly makes some people feel very unwelcome, explain the reasons it makes them feel unwelcome as I understand them, and offer my opinion that it's generally a very bad look for your state or your region and I hope people take that into account when they make their decisions. I've done that like ten times now, I don't really feel like doing it ten more times. Cheers and thanks for the mostly respectful exchanges.