What should we do about Saudi Arabia? (1 Viewer)

[The Commish]

Jordan and Kuwait are already U.S. allies, though they don't have a ton of weight to throw around. I had thought the UAE were allied with the U.S., as well, but they may more like Swiss-style neutral -- not sure.

Yes...and I'd rather be allies with them than SA, but I fully admit I don't come at this from a "do everything to protect our oil interests even though they really aren't our interests because we are independent" angle either....that hurts my fingers to even type out  

 

[The Commish]

I'm not as familiar with the costs of transportation of oil but isn't the main issue with this part of the pipeline the shale deposits in Alberta?  I used to work for an aggregate company, transportation was always the most expensive piece.  I'm assuming oil is very similar.  There's an economic price in that we are going to pay for the transportation one way or the other if we are the end consumer. 

As far as the EO, I don't know domestically what was done.  I had heard some of the leases for the Gulf were being taken off bid.  I don't believe there is much activity there right now as the cost of extracting in that area in the current price environment isn't favorable.  However, as oil prices rise as they have been, I think these would become viable again and could help us fill the need.   The below is what I found on it:

https://www.houmatoday.com/story/business/2021/02/12/debate-continues-biden-administration-cancels-march-oil-lease-sale-gulf-mexico/6744827002/

If I had to guess, I'd say it has a TON more to do with cost of oil to us than being "energy independent".  What you post here makes infinitely more sense than anything presented in talking points so far.

 

[stlrams]

I have some concerns about Palestinian genocide and ongoing human rights abuses.  But hey, they buy weapons and worship the same god as the Christian west, so we can overlook that, right?

I don’t think we get a ton of benefit out of their “stabilizing” influence. 

How about avoiding more wars and genocides...

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

While the U.S. is energy independent many of our allies and customers and suppliers aren't.   Japan and Europe would have a bad time if middle east oil stopped flowing.   Really the whole  world would because the price would shoot up.  But at least we would have access to energy we could use.  It is hard to find a more strategic area.  What ever we do we can't ignore it unless we are going to be willing to drill enough we that we can replace their production. 

 

[the rover]

How about avoiding more wars and genocides...

Has Israel prevented any wars or genocides?  

 

[Jayrod]

Has Israel prevented any wars or genocides?  

Besides their own?

Genocide has a very specific definition.  What Israel is doing to Palestine is not genocide, not even close.

 

[stlrams]

Has Israel prevented any wars or genocides?  

I believe so. They provide stability and police the region.  For example, Iran would have a nuclear weapon if Israel has not thru covert operations destroy the operation numerous times. 

 

[the rover]

I believe so. They provide stability and police the region.  For example, Iran would have a nuclear weapon if Israel has not thru covert operations destroy the operation numerous times. 

Besides their own?

Genocide has a very specific definition.  What Israel is doing to Palestine is not genocide, not even close.

yes, the definition is quite specific:

Cleveland Peace Action (CPA) condemns, without reservation, the acts of violence and repression committed by Israel against the people of Palestine. Many of those who  wish to defend  the actions of the Israeli government contend that the term “genocide” only refers to mass killing and therefore does not apply. CPA points to the fact that the term “genocide” was first used in 1944 by Professor Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jewish legal scholar who wrote in 1945, Genocide: A Modern Crime. In his book, Professor Lemkin writes: “Genocide does not necessarily signify mass killing. More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight.”

He goes on to write that: “The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, the culture of the people, their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health, and dignity. When those means fail, the machine gun can always be used as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”

Since Professor Lemkin first coined the term, genocide is now seen by historians, scientists, and other scholars as a separate category of collective violence aimed at the erasure of the identity and security of ethnic, religious or other national groups. Many scholars  now agree that from 1947 until the present, Israel has used ethnic cleansing of Arab villages, as well as the murder of civilians as exemplified by the mass killings at Deir Yasin. More than 700 Arab villages were destroyed with the consequent forced transfer of more than 750,000 Arabs. Many now live in refugee camps while their homes and farms were either confiscated by the Israeli government or given to Israeli families. In 2014, Israel bombed Gaza for almost 50 days resulting in the murder of 2,300 people, 600 of whom were children. The bombings also destroyed schools, hospitals, roads, bridges and other key elements of civil society in Gaza. Seeking to justify this killing, Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked posted a statement on Facebook in 2014 claiming that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.” She also called for the military destruction of Palestine, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” Ms. Shaked’s FB post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers, “who give birth to little snakes.” Not to be outdone, Moshe Feiglin, who was deputy speaker of the Knesset at the time, called for concentration  camps in Gaza.
 

How many Palestinians do they need to kill before it’s genocide?  How about war crimes?  Targeting civilians, including children? 
 

 

[the rover]

Sorry, quoting and linking from my phone doesn’t always work

 

[ShamrockPride]

IMO the entire middle east.  Yes, done. Get OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!        Let them do what they do, which is kill each other over religion.  they have over a 1000 years of history.  nothing changes.   get our military home & let those in the middle east kill each other, just like they like to do.

 we have young Americans coming home dead or mangled on an almost daily basis all in order to further our interests in that cesspool of religious zealots?  for oil?

complete lunacy on our part.  IMHO

Establishment voters (both left and right) love war...just like the leaders they vote for.

 

[Jayrod]

yes, the definition is quite specific:

Cleveland Peace Action (CPA) condemns, without reservation, the acts of violence and repression committed by Israel against the people of Palestine. Many of those who  wish to defend  the actions of the Israeli government contend that the term “genocide” only refers to mass killing and therefore does not apply. CPA points to the fact that the term “genocide” was first used in 1944 by Professor Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jewish legal scholar who wrote in 1945, Genocide: A Modern Crime. In his book, Professor Lemkin writes: “Genocide does not necessarily signify mass killing. More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight.”

He goes on to write that: “The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, the culture of the people, their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health, and dignity. When those means fail, the machine gun can always be used as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”

Since Professor Lemkin first coined the term, genocide is now seen by historians, scientists, and other scholars as a separate category of collective violence aimed at the erasure of the identity and security of ethnic, religious or other national groups. Many scholars  now agree that from 1947 until the present, Israel has used ethnic cleansing of Arab villages, as well as the murder of civilians as exemplified by the mass killings at Deir Yasin. More than 700 Arab villages were destroyed with the consequent forced transfer of more than 750,000 Arabs. Many now live in refugee camps while their homes and farms were either confiscated by the Israeli government or given to Israeli families. In 2014, Israel bombed Gaza for almost 50 days resulting in the murder of 2,300 people, 600 of whom were children. The bombings also destroyed schools, hospitals, roads, bridges and other key elements of civil society in Gaza. Seeking to justify this killing, Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked posted a statement on Facebook in 2014 claiming that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.” She also called for the military destruction of Palestine, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” Ms. Shaked’s FB post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers, “who give birth to little snakes.” Not to be outdone, Moshe Feiglin, who was deputy speaker of the Knesset at the time, called for concentration  camps in Gaza.
 

How many Palestinians do they need to kill before it’s genocide?  How about war crimes?  Targeting civilians, including children? 
 

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/2020/08/07/genocide-warning-report-israelpalestine

Israel is essentially at war with Hamas, a terrorist group harbored by Palestine.  What they are doing is not genocide and everyone without an agenda knows it.  They are likely too harsh on the Palestinian people, but discrimination is not genocide.  Plus they have a lot more at stake since many in their region would actively commit genocide against the Jews if they could.

 

[stlrams]

yes, the definition is quite specific:

Cleveland Peace Action (CPA) condemns, without reservation, the acts of violence and repression committed by Israel against the people of Palestine. Many of those who  wish to defend  the actions of the Israeli government contend that the term “genocide” only refers to mass killing and therefore does not apply. CPA points to the fact that the term “genocide” was first used in 1944 by Professor Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jewish legal scholar who wrote in 1945, Genocide: A Modern Crime. In his book, Professor Lemkin writes: “Genocide does not necessarily signify mass killing. More often it refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight.”

He goes on to write that: “The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, the culture of the people, their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health, and dignity. When those means fail, the machine gun can always be used as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”

Since Professor Lemkin first coined the term, genocide is now seen by historians, scientists, and other scholars as a separate category of collective violence aimed at the erasure of the identity and security of ethnic, religious or other national groups. Many scholars  now agree that from 1947 until the present, Israel has used ethnic cleansing of Arab villages, as well as the murder of civilians as exemplified by the mass killings at Deir Yasin. More than 700 Arab villages were destroyed with the consequent forced transfer of more than 750,000 Arabs. Many now live in refugee camps while their homes and farms were either confiscated by the Israeli government or given to Israeli families. In 2014, Israel bombed Gaza for almost 50 days resulting in the murder of 2,300 people, 600 of whom were children. The bombings also destroyed schools, hospitals, roads, bridges and other key elements of civil society in Gaza. Seeking to justify this killing, Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked posted a statement on Facebook in 2014 claiming that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy.” She also called for the military destruction of Palestine, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” Ms. Shaked’s FB post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers, “who give birth to little snakes.” Not to be outdone, Moshe Feiglin, who was deputy speaker of the Knesset at the time, called for concentration  camps in Gaza.
 

How many Palestinians do they need to kill before it’s genocide?  How about war crimes?  Targeting civilians, including children? 
 

I’m not condoning war crimes but we don’t have a stellar record either.  Israel has essentially been at war ever since their existence so yes they are systematically suppressing the Palestinians who largely support a terrorist groups including hamas.

 

[the rover]

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/2020/08/07/genocide-warning-report-israelpalestine

Israel is essentially at war with Hamas, a terrorist group harbored by Palestine.  What they are doing is not genocide and everyone without an agenda knows it.  They are likely too harsh on the Palestinian people, but discrimination is not genocide.  Plus they have a lot more at stake since many in their region would actively commit genocide against the Jews if they could.

The guy who literally wrote the book on genocide and created the phrase disagrees with you.  Targeting civilians including children is “likely too harsh?”  It’s a war crime.