Such an embarrassment. Then she tries to throw her staffers under the bus by saying they gave her the wrong information. Excuse me? Is it common for them to tell you what color the host is?
Not a good look in this day and age.Such an embarrassment. Then she tries to throw her staffers under the bus by saying they gave her the wrong information. Excuse me? Is it common for them to tell you what color the host is?
wutDoes the left still support white privilege? And are we passing that to our children? They are clueless to the idea, but may one day be accused of it. Should I prepare them now?
I'm just saying is white privilege real? And if so should I talk to my kids about it?
Yes. Why not?I'm just saying is white privilege real? And if so should I talk to my kids about it?
Just in the course of normal conversations about life in America. I'm not being snarky, either. Kids absorb things their parents say and do; my kids know that I have a keen sensitivity to unfairness of all stripes. Having a gay child/sibling has helped all of us in my family to understand discrimination of all types, even if it's kinda muted. They can easily see that people of color are held in a different light than the average white person.Not snarky. Tell me how you did it.
The problem is the term 'white privilege' comes across to many as derogatory, suggesting any success a white person has is because of some special privilege and not earned. Most poorer whites do not believe they ever have any such privilege, while many others laugh at them for suggesting they don't.Just in the course of normal conversations about life in America. I'm not being snarky, either. Kids absorb things their parents say and do; my kids know that I have a keen sensitivity to unfairness of all stripes. Having a gay child/sibling has helped all of us in my family to understand discrimination of all types, even if it's kinda muted. They can easily see that people of color are held in a different light than the average white person.
I don't want to sound preachy about this but every minority in this country understands what I'm saying, even if many white people don't believe it.
I disagree with this. Acknowledging you have a natural advantage does not take away from one's accomplishments. For example, people born with extreme athletic gifts still need to work hard and nurture those gifts to maximize them. Same for those born incredibly smart. Without education and hard work it's likely those smarts are largely wasted.The problem is the term 'white privilege' comes across to many as derogatory, suggesting any success a white person has is because of some special privilege and not earned. Most poorer whites do not believe they ever have any such privilege, while many others laugh at them for suggesting they don't.
Exactly...I know very well I was born with an advantage over some. In a middle class home I a safe neighborhood...we didn’t get everything we wanted but we got what we needed. Went on vacations...but not lavish things. Just a very good stable upbringing. It wasn’t without struggle (parents divorced when I was 2, both remarried...moving to Tennessee when I was 15...).I disagree with this. Acknowledging you have a natural advantage does not take away from one's accomplishments. For example, people born with extreme athletic gifts still need to work hard and nurture those gifts to maximize them. Same for those born incredibly smart. Without education and hard work it's likely those smarts are largely wasted.
One subset of people feel threatened by the continued "less whitening" of this country. So they've decided to work an us vs them angle, and pretending that whites are routinely discriminated against or are thought to have everything handed to them. These are their rallying cries to drive a wedge between those who believe like they do and those who don't.
What's that saying, "the absence of privilege can feel like oppression."
Don't fall for that jon.
Then I would propose that those people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify. It doesn't mean that nothing you did was earned, it means that statistically you had a head start in the race. Everything from odds of having 2 parents around to chances of getting jail time to access to tudors, on and on.... it all adds up in the overall scheme of things. No, most poor whites probably don't think they had much of an advantage, but historically that was still better than being a poor minority.The problem is the term 'white privilege' comes across to many as derogatory, suggesting any success a white person has is because of some special privilege and not earned. Most poorer whites do not believe they ever have any such privilege, while many others laugh at them for suggesting they don't.
Sounds like Economic Privilege not White Privilege.Then I would propose that those people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify. It doesn't mean that nothing you did was earned, it means that statistically you had a head start in the race. Everything from odds of having 2 parents around to chances of getting jail time to access to tudors, on and on.... it all adds up in the overall scheme of things. No, most poor whites probably don't think they had much of an advantage, but historically that was still better than being a poor minority.
ETA: it also means that you have the benefit of not having to think about the multitude of things other people have to. I'll never know the nervousness of what it feels like to be a female getting in an elevator with a strange guy, or having to worry about what I am wearing, or how I should act if a cop pulls me over, etc..
I said in that post that poor white is still ahead of poor minority, so not sure what you are getting at.Sounds like Economic Privilege not White Privilege.
Just quoted your post because it was last one in the thread. Was responding more towards the entire thread topic. Sorry for not clarifying.I said in that post that poor white is still ahead of poor minority, so not sure what you are getting at.
ETA: admittedly, my off the top of my head examples might not best the best.
I often hear people say the term is not meant to suggest white people don't have to work hard nor is it intended to diminish their accomplishments. Yet, in practice, that is often exactly what it does. Prime example is just upthread a bit. Areva Martin hastily dismissed David Webb's accomplishments as a product of his being a white man. As if that wasn't bad enough, she went with a condescending (paraphrasing) I don't have time to explain it to you. She obviously had no idea he is black, too. This is not some random lady getting a little reckless on the twitters. This woman is a "Civil Rights Attorney, Advocate, Commentator, Author, TV Host & Producer| Cohost of Face the Truth on CBS| CNN Legal Analyst" (according to her bio) who went on a radio show chomping at the bit to use that term. Now, I am not going to rip entire groups of people over one woman's gaffe but I also know she's not alone. The term has been weaponized. That may help explain why "people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify".KarmaPolice said:Then I would propose that those people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify. It doesn't mean that nothing you did was earned, it means that statistically you had a head start in the race. Everything from odds of having 2 parents around to chances of getting jail time to access to tudors, on and on.... it all adds up in the overall scheme of things. No, most poor whites probably don't think they had much of an advantage, but historically that was still better than being a poor minority.
ETA: it also means that you have the benefit of not having to think about the multitude of things other people have to. I'll never know the nervousness of what it feels like to be a female getting in an elevator with a strange guy, or having to worry about what I am wearing, or how I should act if a cop pulls me over, etc..
Yeah, this totally ignores the generational impact-the fundamental damage to the social infrastructure-of institutional racism. White people making that happen “at a higher rate” and that somehow being a “credit” to them is laughable, bordering on implicit racism. They’re “making that happen” for a gazillion reasons that have nothing to do with anything inherent to “white people”.Lets stop finding reasons to arrest black males more often, incarcerating them more often for longer sentences, etc etc. Let’s not deny job interviews for those with “black sounding names” so that job access can be increased, housing, could go on and on."having 2 parents around" is definitely an advantage in several ways. A two parent household is also an accomplishment. Relationships take (among many things) effort and commitment. Lasting relationships are not an accident. So while a child obviously has no say in the parents he/she is born to, its insulting to the people (who make it work) to list this advantage as an example of white privilege because it discounts the work that went into that kid having that advantage. There are kids of all races that enjoy this advantage and kids of all races that don't. If white people are making that happen at a higher rate than others, that's a credit to them. That "head start" is earned.
Maybe people should take it upon themselves to learn what it means.jon_mx said:The problem is the term 'white privilege' comes across to many as derogatory, suggesting any success a white person has is because of some special privilege and not earned. Most poorer whites do not believe they ever have any such privilege, while many others laugh at them for suggesting they don't.
That’s quite the word salad.Maybe people should take it upon themselves to learn what it means.
It is the peak of white privilege to refuse to discuss a topic unless other people change the tone one listener is perceiving in their words because that listener doesn’t understand the topic has existed for a long time.
If it reads like word salad, I recommend looking into the topic.That’s quite the word salad.
Again, nobody is taking away that the relationship takes effort and that part is earned. Just saying that statistically there are a lot of background factors (as a couple others pointed out - ones that have taken years and years to build up) that would make a white couple have a head start over a minority couple in accomplishing this task.I often hear people say the term is not meant to suggest white people don't have to work hard nor is it intended to diminish their accomplishments. Yet, in practice, that is often exactly what it does. Prime example is just upthread a bit. Areva Martin hastily dismissed David Webb's accomplishments as a product of his being a white man. As if that wasn't bad enough, she went with a condescending (paraphrasing) I don't have time to explain it to you. She obviously had no idea he is black, too. This is not some random lady getting a little reckless on the twitters. This woman is a "Civil Rights Attorney, Advocate, Commentator, Author, TV Host & Producer| Cohost of Face the Truth on CBS| CNN Legal Analyst" (according to her bio) who went on a radio show chomping at the bit to use that term. Now, I am not going to rip entire groups of people over one woman's gaffe but I also know she's not alone. The term has been weaponized. That may help explain why "people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify".
"having 2 parents around" is definitely an advantage in several ways. A two parent household is also an accomplishment. Relationships take (among many things) effort and commitment. Lasting relationships are not an accident. So while a child obviously has no say in the parents he/she is born to, its insulting to the people (who make it work) to list this advantage as an example of white privilege because it discounts the work that went into that kid having that advantage. There are kids of all races that enjoy this advantage and kids of all races that don't. If white people are making that happen at a higher rate than others, that's a credit to them. That "head start" is earned.
Even with this 'head start' of being in a middle/upper-class two-parent home, black children are far likelier to end up in a lower income bracket than other races.Again, nobody is taking away that the relationship takes effort and that part is earned. Just saying that statistically there are a lot of background factors (as a couple others pointed out - ones that have taken years and years to build up) that would make a white couple have a head start over a minority couple in accomplishing this task.
Let’s start here: do you think things were equal enough for a black person to be able to compete in this country on the day of Martin Luther King, Jr.’s death? Because a child who was born in that day could very well have a child who is a freshman in college today.Even with this 'head start' of being in a middle/upper-class two-parent home, black children are far likelier to end up in a lower income bracket than other races.
No, there were still a lot of significant changes a good 25 years after that. And there are still improvements which need to be made. But the biggest obstacles today which need to be overcome are within the black community itself. The segregation, the ghettos, the gangs, the fatherless homes. The resentment, anger and dispare needs to be replaced by hope, pride and success. There are no easy answers, but for some reason they are in a holding pattern when they really should not be.Let’s start here: do you think things were equal enough for a black person to be able to compete in this country on the day of Martin Luther King, Jr.’s death? Because a child who was born in that day could very well have a child who is a freshman in college today.
So, they segregated themselves, put themselves in lower property areas, and decided to lock up their males at a much higher rate? They are still choosing that today?No, there were still a lot of significant changes a good 25 years after that. And there are still improvements which need to be made. But the biggest obstacles today which need to be overcome are within the black community itself. The segregation, the ghettos, the gangs, the fatherless homes. The resentment, anger and dispare needs to be replaced by hope, pride and success. There are no easy answers, but for some reason they are in a holding pattern when they really should not be.
A holding pattern?No, there were still a lot of significant changes a good 25 years after that. And there are still improvements which need to be made. But the biggest obstacles today which need to be overcome are within the black community itself. The segregation, the ghettos, the gangs, the fatherless homes. The resentment, anger and dispare needs to be replaced by hope, pride and success. There are no easy answers, but for some reason they are in a holding pattern when they really should not be.
The income gap today is similar to what it was in the 50s. The well educated are doing well, but that is about it.
The well educated are also not doing well comparatively. At least not the well educated black men. All across the board black men have lower incomes than white men - even the top 1% is over a 12% pay gap.The income gap today is similar to what it was in the 50s. The well educated are doing well, but that is about it.
I do not believe this is accurate. These numbers are a decade old, but "blacks with a college diploma now have a median income that is 90 percent of the median income of similarly educated non-Hispanic whites. Blacks with a master’s degree have incomes nearly equal to those of whites with a master’s degree. Blacks with a doctorate actually have higher incomes than similarly educated non-Hispanic whites.".....I have seen more recent numbers, but I can't locate which as similar at 87%. The difference in pay for college degrees between races can generally be explained by experience, occupation/industry, and location. For non-college eduated black males, the pay gap is more glaring (70-75% of whites) and only about half to two-thirds of the gap can be explained by measureable factors.The well educated are also not doing well comparatively. At least not the well educated black men. All across the board black men have lower incomes than white men - even the top 1% is over a 12% pay gap.
White women and black women are pretty similar to one another, obviously still lower than white men
But you can choose to get an education. You can’t choose what people are willing to pay you.
Doesn’t that suggest to you that maybe it’s not the black community choosing not to make more money?
Looks like that data blends both genders when comparing blacks and whites.I do not believe this is accurate. These numbers are a decade old, but "blacks with a college diploma now have a median income that is 90 percent of the median income of similarly educated non-Hispanic whites. Blacks with a master’s degree have incomes nearly equal to those of whites with a master’s degree. Blacks with a doctorate actually have higher incomes than similarly educated non-Hispanic whites.".....I have seen more recent numbers, but I can't locate which as similar at 87%. The difference in pay for college degrees between races can generally be explained by experience, occupation/industry, and location. For non-college eduated black males, the pay gap is more glaring (70-75% of whites) and only about half to two-thirds of the gap can be explained by measureable factors.
September 2016 dataEducation is supposed to be the nation’s great socioeconomic leveler. That belief, however, is not borne out in the data. Pay gaps between white and black workers have grown since 1979, even after controlling for education, experience and location, according to research by the Economic Policy Institute. In fact, racial pay gaps have expanded the most for college graduates, which makes it seem clear that discrimination is a leading cause.
Last year [2016], black college graduates earned about 21 percent less per hour on average than white college graduates; in 1979, the gap was 13 percent. The racial disparity in earnings is even greater for men: Last year, the average hourly earnings of black college-educated men were about 25 percent less than of white college-educated men. The gaps widen up the economic ladder. The top 5 percent of black male earners make about 47 percent less than the top-earning white men.
That would most likely surprise many Americans, according to a study by Yale researchers, which found that the nation’s progress toward economic equality was broadly overestimated, with wealthy white people the most inclined to overstate the economic progress of African-Americans. The misperception is probably rooted in resistance to evidence that race, and not just individual effort, determines success and achievement.
The racial pay gap is narrower among women, but the gender pay gap in average hourly earnings is large. Last year, white college-educated women made 31 percent less than white college-educated men, while black college-educated women made 38 percent less than white college-educated men. Those gaps are reflected in other data, too. Specifically, white college-educated women consistently have a lower employment rate (currently, 67.2 percent) than similarly educated white men (76.1 percent), black men (75.4 percent) and black women (72.7 percent).
The obvious explanation, that these women’s husbands are more likely to make enough to be the sole support of a family, is basically correct, but glib. White women are also likelier to be married than black women. The racial marriage gap, which is attributed in part to tougher overall economic situations for black Americans, narrows with education level, but it does not close. As a result, black women at all education levels are likelier to be their family’s sole or primary provider, and thus more attached to the work force.
Even among white and black couples with similar earnings, however, differences in wealth make it easier for a white family to opt to have a stay-at-home spouse. That’s because wealth — home equity, savings, investments — provides a cushion to fall back on. At every income level, black households possess only a small fraction of the net worth of white households. In black families whose head of household had a college degree, median net worth was recently one-eighth that of comparable white families — $23,400 versus $180,500.
College educated black people of similar ability making 90% of what white people make is not “doing well.” And I’d be interested to see the current numbers on Ph.D recipients - I have a feeling there was some “Randall Cunningham Sydrome” going on for awhile; you’d have to be a superstar to have gotten a Ph.D before about 1990, which weights salaries. If the only black quarterback is Randall Cunningham, yeah, black QB salaries are bound to be higher on average than white QB salaries.I do not believe this is accurate. These numbers are a decade old, but "blacks with a college diploma now have a median income that is 90 percent of the median income of similarly educated non-Hispanic whites. Blacks with a master’s degree have incomes nearly equal to those of whites with a master’s degree. Blacks with a doctorate actually have higher incomes than similarly educated non-Hispanic whites.".....I have seen more recent numbers, but I can't locate which as similar at 87%. The difference in pay for college degrees between races can generally be explained by experience, occupation/industry, and location. For non-college eduated black males, the pay gap is more glaring (70-75% of whites) and only about half to two-thirds of the gap can be explained by measureable factors.
Still most of the difference in income can be explained by measured factors occupation, industry, experience and other. Wealth is a big issue. Hispanics have a similar issue. Hispanics are even lagging further behind in education. The way to fix the wealth issues is to have new generations build off the success of previous generations. The amount of reparations required to make such a shift in wealth will never fly in this or any other country for that matter. There has been progress made, but not nearly enough. The last 50 years have been focused mostly on improving the racial discrimination angle and eliminating institutionalized racism. The improvements there have been very big, but they have not translated into huge results.College educated black people of similar ability making 90% of what white people make is not “doing well.” And I’d be interested to see the current numbers on Ph.D recipients - I have a feeling there was some “Randall Cunningham Sydrome” going on for awhile; you’d have to be a superstar to have gotten a Ph.D before about 1990, which weights salaries. If the only black quarterback is Randall Cunningham, yeah, black QB salaries are bound to be higher on average than white QB salaries.
Regardless, even education doesn’t do one big thing for black families: generate wealth.
https://www.futurity.org/education-racial-wealth-gap-1813672/
Wealth is a generational thing, so even in 50 you probably wouldn't see a ton of shift.Still most of the difference in income can be explained by measured factors occupation, industry, experience and other. Wealth is a big issue. Hispanics have a similar issue. Hispanics are even lagging further behind in education. The way to fix the wealth issues is to have new generations build off the success of previous generations. The amount of reparations required to make such a shift in wealth will never fly in this or any other country for that matter. There has been progress made, but not nearly enough. The last 50 years have been focused mostly on improving the racial discrimination angle and eliminating institutionalized racism. The improvements there have been very big, but they have not translated into huge results.
The government owes the people equal treatment. It does not owe everyone an equal starting point. America is the land of opportunity. Governments can help its people succeed, but it is ultimately up to the individual.Wealth is a generational thing, so even in 50 you probably wouldn't see a ton of shift.
It also feels like you are acknowledging that there is a big problem, but that type of wealth redistribution wouldn't fly here, so now it's on them to help themselves.
I also dont think the barriers to success have been corrected nearly enough even the playing field at the start of the race.
The point of the thread is that it's probably really easy for us to say that.The government owes the people equal treatment. It does not owe everyone an equal starting point. America is the land of opportunity. Governments can help its people succeed, but it is ultimately up to the individual.
Would you say, taking the long view, that the US government has treated persons of African descent equally to how it has treated persons of European descent?The government owes the people equal treatment. It does not owe everyone an equal starting point. America is the land of opportunity. Governments can help its people succeed, but it is ultimately up to the individual.
That is kind of what we fought a war over. We can only strive to get better. The way to reverse past sins of racisal discrimination is not by creating new rules which racially discriminate. The only way we can get beyond this is to become a color blind society.Would you say, taking the long view, that the US government has treated persons of African descent equally to how it has treated persons of European descent?
No, it isn’t. It’s to acknowledge that we are not color blind and figure out what we can do to fix what we destroyed. We are not going to be color blind any time soon and it is unconscionable to make entire races of people wait for that to happen to be treated equally in our society.That is kind of what we fought a war over. We can only strive to get better. The way to reverse past sins of racisal discrimination is not by creating new rules which racially discriminate. The only way we can get beyond this is to become a color blind society.
The way to get respect in our society is to succeed. Nobody should be waiting for or expecting anything to be given to them.No, it isn’t. It’s to acknowledge that we are not color blind and figure out what we can do to fix what we destroyed. We are not going to be color blind any time soon and it is unconscionable to make entire races of people wait for that to happen to be treated equally in our society.
This is the first mention of the word respect and the first mention of "giving things" to someone in the conversation, but I'm happy to address that.The way to get respect in our society is to succeed. Nobody should be waiting for or expecting anything to be given to them.
Who alive today has had everything taken from them? Are we going to go back a dozen gernerations and figure out what is owed to everyone.This is the first mention of the word respect and the first mention of "giving things" to someone in the conversation, but I'm happy to address that.
When people have had everything taken from them, and then you return a little something, that's not a handout.
There are also multiple ways to discuss respect.
Sometimes we discuss "respect" in terms of high standing or authority. "I have a lot of respect for that guy."
Sometimes we discuss "respect" in terms of standing as a human being or person worthy of basic dignity. "Any society must have respect for its citizens."
The first kind is earned, and its status (getting it or not getting it) often says something about the person who receives respect or doesn't. The second kind is de facto, and its status (getting it or not getting it) often says something about the person who is or is not giving that respect.
A dozen?Who alive today has had everything taken from them? Are we going to go back a dozen gernerations and figure out what is owed to everyone.
Seems a bit different than having everything taken from them.A dozen?
I thought we just established that someone born the day Martin Luther King, Jr. died would quite likely have kids in college today.
I don't mean to be flippant, but live under Jim Crow and watch your leaders get murdered in front of you, and your neighbors lynched. Tell me what you've got left after a few years.Seems a bit different than having everything taken from them.
or have been an innocent african american man in Chicago in the 70s tortured to confess by the CPD.I don't mean to be flippant, but live under Jim Crow and watch your leaders get murdered in front of you, and your neighbors lynched. Tell me what you've got left after a few years.
Sure, but at least they got 10 cents an hour working at the prisons. It's not like it's slavery.or have been an innocent african american man in Chicago in the 70s tortured to confess by the CPD.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-jon-burge-chicago-police-torture-timeline-20180919-htmlstory.html
Why is this a white advantage?I often hear people say the term is not meant to suggest white people don't have to work hard nor is it intended to diminish their accomplishments. Yet, in practice, that is often exactly what it does. Prime example is just upthread a bit. Areva Martin hastily dismissed David Webb's accomplishments as a product of his being a white man. As if that wasn't bad enough, she went with a condescending (paraphrasing) I don't have time to explain it to you. She obviously had no idea he is black, too. This is not some random lady getting a little reckless on the twitters. This woman is a "Civil Rights Attorney, Advocate, Commentator, Author, TV Host & Producer| Cohost of Face the Truth on CBS| CNN Legal Analyst" (according to her bio) who went on a radio show chomping at the bit to use that term. Now, I am not going to rip entire groups of people over one woman's gaffe but I also know she's not alone. The term has been weaponized. That may help explain why "people aren't getting what the term is usually used to signify".
"having 2 parents around" is definitely an advantage in several ways. A two parent household is also an accomplishment. Relationships take (among many things) effort and commitment. Lasting relationships are not an accident. So while a child obviously has no say in the parents he/she is born to, its insulting to the people (who make it work) to list this advantage as an example of white privilege because it discounts the work that went into that kid having that advantage. There are kids of all races that enjoy this advantage and kids of all races that don't. If white people are making that happen at a higher rate than others, that's a credit to them. That "head start" is earned.
Its not, IMO. Its an earned advantage for anyone who manages to accomplish it.Why is this a white advantage?
I mean, I agree with you. But the poster above you stated that this was a white advantage. I just don't get that.Its not, IMO. Its an earned advantage for anyone who manages to accomplish it.