Who is the #14 best basketball player of all-time? (1 Viewer)

[TripItUp]

With Jokic, he is hands down the most atypical center ever with his outside shooting, bringing the ball up the court, outlet passes and passing in general. Dude was 9 assists away this season from averaging a triple double.

Sure, but can he create his own shot on the ball vs anybody like Kobe, MJ and Durant couild?

Yes.

Here's a 10 1/2 minute long video of him doing just that in every way imaginable.

certainly he can do it, but the bar here is "greatest of all time."

 

[nysfl2]

I'd argue LeBron is probably a better overall offensive player than Durant due to his ability to control the offensive end with scoring & passing.

I'd argue that Lebron is overrated offensively(when compared to the GOATs) due to his inability to create his own shot to the same degree Kobe, MJ, Durant and others could.

But this is a rabbithole I don't want to go down.

This is a terrible argument. Lebron in his prime was pretty much unstoppable offensively. He either scored, got fouled, or drew two defenders and passed to the open man.

To keep it really simple, during his prime, Lebron's lowest FG% was 48%, and most years was north of 50%. Kobe's best FG% year in his career was 47%.

 

[Jayrod]

With Jokic, he is hands down the most atypical center ever with his outside shooting, bringing the ball up the court, outlet passes and passing in general. Dude was 9 assists away this season from averaging a triple double.

Sure, but can he create his own shot on the ball vs anybody like Kobe, MJ and Durant couild?

Yes.

Here's a 10 1/2 minute long video of him doing just that in every way imaginable.

certainly he can do it, but the bar he is greatest of all time.

He's as unstoppable as anyone has ever been. And unlike those other three, you cannot consistently double team him or they get even higher % shots off his passing. He has put together the greatest 3-year advanced stats stretch in NBA history. His got the numbers, the accolades and now the ring to prove it. Only difference is he looks like a guy playing pickup at the YMCA while doing it.

 

[TripItUp]

To keep it really simple, during his prime, Lebron's lowest FG% was 48%, and most years was north of 50%. Kobe's best FG% year in his career was 47%.

Do you think simply looking at fg% over the course of the season is the only important metric here?

Further, without Kyrie's ability to create on the ball in the final minutes of playoff games does Lebron ever get that Cleveland chip?

 

[thecatch]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

 

[Jayrod]

I finally voted Moses Malone. I think he is just a hair better overall basketball player than Dr J. If Dr J had done all of his damage after the merger, he would have been my pick, but the talent level was still diluted no matter which league you were in and Moses' greatest years were all after the merger. Dr. J had a bigger impact on the game, but Moses was a better basketball player which is what we are doing here (I think).

 

[Kev4029]

With Jokic, he is hands down the most atypical center ever with his outside shooting, bringing the ball up the court, outlet passes and passing in general. Dude was 9 assists away this season from averaging a triple double.

Sure, but can he create his own shot on the ball vs anybody like Kobe, MJ and Durant could?

And how much do you value that attribute? To me, it's one of the most important and a major reason Kobe and MJ have 11 rings.

Jokic is an all timer, so I'm not dissing him...I just don't put him in the GOAT scorer/offensive player discussion.

Now you are moving the goalposts. Obviously scoring is the most important part of being a good offensive player but there is a lot more to being a great offensive player than just scoring. That's why we haven't had a lot of people pushing for Karl Malone or Dirk or Carmelo in these discussions yet.

 

[Kev4029]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

Fun fact - Malone made 4 All-Defense teams. And raped a 13 year old.

 

[Jayrod]

With Jokic, he is hands down the most atypical center ever with his outside shooting, bringing the ball up the court, outlet passes and passing in general. Dude was 9 assists away this season from averaging a triple double.

Sure, but can he create his own shot on the ball vs anybody like Kobe, MJ and Durant could?

And how much do you value that attribute? To me, it's one of the most important and a major reason Kobe and MJ have 11 rings.

Jokic is an all timer, so I'm not dissing him...I just don't put him in the GOAT scorer/offensive player discussion.

Now you are moving the goalposts. Obviously scoring is the most important part of being a good offensive player but there is a lot more to being a great offensive player than just scoring. That's why we haven't had a lot of people pushing for Karl Malone or Dirk or Carmelo in these discussions yet.

Great point.

Moses was a great offensive player for one reason...his offensive rebounding. Guy literally added like 6 possessions a game to his team every game off the boards. That kind of stuff adds up to points and wins, which is what offense is about.

 

[thecatch]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

Fun fact - Malone made 4 All-Defense teams. And raped a 13 year old.

he wouldn’t be the first rapist picked in this exercise.

 

[Jayrod]

Fun fact

fun fact:

You guys keep using this phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Zow]

With Jokic, he is hands down the most atypical center ever with his outside shooting, bringing the ball up the court, outlet passes and passing in general. Dude was 9 assists away this season from averaging a triple double.

Sure, but can he create his own shot on the ball vs anybody like Kobe, MJ and Durant couild?

Yes.

Here's a 10 1/2 minute long video of him doing just that in every way imaginable.

certainly he can do it, but the bar he is greatest of all time.

He's as unstoppable as anyone has ever been. And unlike those other three, you cannot consistently double team him or they get even higher % shots off his passing. He has put together the greatest 3-year advanced stats stretch in NBA history. His got the numbers, the accolades and now the ring to prove it. Only difference is he looks like a guy playing pickup at the YMCA while doing it.

So totally fightable is what you're saying?

 

[Kev4029]

Fun fact

fun fact:

You guys keep using this phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The fun fact was that he made the all-defense teams. The second fact was just a fact.

 

[Zow]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

He was certainly in the consideration for me. Probably the greatest stat compiler of all-time. He was very good for a very long time, but I just don't think he ever touched greatness.

And of course the off the court stuff just taints him a bit (though shouldn't be considered for this exercise).

 

[thecatch]

Fun fact

fun fact:

You guys keep using this phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fair point

 

[thecatch]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

He was certainly in the consideration for me. Probably the greatest stat compiler of all-time. He was very good for a very long time, but I just don't think he ever touched greatness.

And of course the off the court stuff just taints him a bit (though shouldn't be considered for this exercise).

He made 14 all NBA teams, he wasn’t someone who was just grinding out 10 ppg until he was 45.

 

[Zow]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

He was certainly in the consideration for me. Probably the greatest stat compiler of all-time. He was very good for a very long time, but I just don't think he ever touched greatness.

And of course the off the court stuff just taints him a bit (though shouldn't be considered for this exercise).

He made 14 all NBA teams, he wasn’t someone who was just grinding out 10 ppg until he was 45.

The bold isn't what I meant, so if my post suggested it my apologies as it's not at all what I intended. Malone was very good for a very long time (hence the 14 all-nbas). He's like the NBA's better version of Frank Gore or Cal Ripken.

 

[Kev4029]

To keep it really simple, during his prime, Lebron's lowest FG% was 48%, and most years was north of 50%. Kobe's best FG% year in his career was 47%.

Do you think simply looking at fg% over the course of the season is the only important metric here?

Further, without Kyrie's ability to create on the ball in the final minutes of playoff games does Lebron ever get that Cleveland chip?

For his career, Kobe had a TS% that was 4% (like 1.04x, not +0.04) higher than league average. Lebron's is 8%, Durant is 13%, Jerry West was 12%, Robertson was 15%, Magic was 13%, and Curry is 14%.

 

[thecatch]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

He was certainly in the consideration for me. Probably the greatest stat compiler of all-time. He was very good for a very long time, but I just don't think he ever touched greatness.

And of course the off the court stuff just taints him a bit (though shouldn't be considered for this exercise).

He made 14 all NBA teams, he wasn’t someone who was just grinding out 10 ppg until he was 45.

The bold isn't what I meant, so if my post suggested it my apologies as it's not at all what I intended. Malone was very good for a very long time (hence the 14 all-nbas). He's like the NBA's better version of Frank Gore or Cal Ripken.

I love Gore as a Niners fan, but he’s more the type of stat compiler I took you to be referencing (only 2x all pro) and isn’t comparable to what Malone did at all.

 

[Zow]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

He was certainly in the consideration for me. Probably the greatest stat compiler of all-time. He was very good for a very long time, but I just don't think he ever touched greatness.

And of course the off the court stuff just taints him a bit (though shouldn't be considered for this exercise).

He made 14 all NBA teams, he wasn’t someone who was just grinding out 10 ppg until he was 45.

The bold isn't what I meant, so if my post suggested it my apologies as it's not at all what I intended. Malone was very good for a very long time (hence the 14 all-nbas). He's like the NBA's better version of Frank Gore or Cal Ripken.

I love Gore as a Niners fan, but he’s more the type of stat compiler I took you to be referencing (only 2x all pro) and isn’t comparable to what Malone did at all.

I did say that Malone was the NBA's better version. And I think we're saying close to the same with perhaps you suggesting Malone should be ranked in the top 15 all-time with me saying top-20 due to the amazing stats but no moment of true greatness.

 

[Frostillicus]

Karl Malone understandably gets knocked for a variety of reasons but he deserves to be in this conversation. His resume is unbelievable even if we can agree he never had the impact at the highest levels that you’d expect from someone with said resume.

Fun fact - Malone made 4 All-Defense teams. And raped a 13 year old.

Well that was a roller coaster.

 

[Frostillicus]

I voted Jerry West. After all the discussion in here I actually decided to look up these guys and I changed my vote to Moses.

F Karl Malone.

 

[Gally]

Further, without Kyrie's ability to create on the ball in the final minutes of playoff games does Lebron ever get that Cleveland chip?

And without Shaq or Gasol does Kobe ever get a title? It's easy to keep playing this type of game.

 

[msudaisy26]

I love the fact that we are all biased to the numbers, but former players could never be biased for players they played with or that died tragically in an accident.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Dr. J is not close to the basketball player that Durant was.

If you want to give him style point, or "influence/impact" points fine, but don't pretend that Dr. J could hold a candle to peak Durant.

I think we found Durant’s newest burner account…

 

[Zow]

Dr. J is not close to the basketball player that Durant was.

If you want to give him style point, or "influence/impact" points fine, but don't pretend that Dr. J could hold a candle to peak Durant.

I think we found Durant’s newest burner account…

That he shares with Kenneth Walker?

 

[The Z Machine]

No mention of how illegal defense rules helped a variety of players in the 90s though.

I do wonder a bit about those rule changes to defend against Shaq in the post. Could teams more effectively double him or force him to receive the ball further from the bucket? Probably. But he could still make moves in the paint and put a lot of people in foul trouble, same as always.