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Whom would you rather have? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cobalt_27
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Do I get to bring their current set of receivers with them? Or do I just get the quarterback?
bostonfred
Footballguy
Neither statement is according to bostonfred. Please don't put words in my mouth. First, I never said Peyton "can't win the big one". I've been exceptionally clear on this. I've said that he tends to make game-losing mistakes in playoff games. I've also said that his play in the AFCCG made me a Manning believer. So please don't misrepresent me on that.
As for the statement that he's a cancer, my statement was a comparison, not a statement of Manning specifically. And I stand by that comparison. Manning has lost more games for the Colts than Owens has lost for his teams. He may play at a higher profile position, but Manning's game-losing mistakes have been too much for the team to overcome in the past. Even this year, he threw 5 INTs in the first two playoff games, and 7 INTs in four playoff games.
The reason I've come around on Manning is not that he's eliminated his postseason turnover problem, but that he's shown a newfound ability to overcome the pressure of a playoff game and not only win a game, but make a comeback. To me, Manning's performance in the AFCCG is as good as any one of Brady's wins (with the possible exception of the 2003 Superbowl, which really was incredible). Until this year, I had seen no reason to expect he was capable of that, and now that I have, I have no reason to expect he'll suddenly revert to his previous form next year.
But while I appreciate your drunken poll, I don't think the fact you misunderstand my statements gives you the right to misrepresent them.
In this postseason, Peyton Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs. That's not in one game - that's over the course of 4 games! Quite frankly, he was nowhere near the top of his game this postseason. Even in his "MVP" performance, he threw 1 TD and 1 INT in the super bowl. Meh.
Look further back. he has thrown 9 TDs / 13 INTs over his last 8 playoff games.
For his career, Manning has thrown 18 TDs / 15 INTs in the postseason. Most of that is built in two games where he went 5/0 and 3/0 back to back.
Tom Brady has 20 TDs to 9 INTs in the playoffs. Brady has played in 8 playoff games where he hasn't even thrown an interception.
One could argue that Tom Brady has the luxury of never having to face a Belichick defense in postseason (or any other time for that matter). Manning has faced a Belichick defense 3x in postseason and has thrown a combined 2 TDs / 6 INTs. But even with that said, Brady's career playoff numbers are mind-bogglingly good. Very, very, few QBs in history have put up the numbers Brady has. Joe Montana is one of the few.
Brady obviously doesn't have the regular season numbers Manning has, but Manning has nowhere near the postseason numbers Brady has. I value the postseason numbers a LOT more.
Look further back. he has thrown 9 TDs / 13 INTs over his last 8 playoff games.
For his career, Manning has thrown 18 TDs / 15 INTs in the postseason. Most of that is built in two games where he went 5/0 and 3/0 back to back.
Tom Brady has 20 TDs to 9 INTs in the playoffs. Brady has played in 8 playoff games where he hasn't even thrown an interception.
One could argue that Tom Brady has the luxury of never having to face a Belichick defense in postseason (or any other time for that matter). Manning has faced a Belichick defense 3x in postseason and has thrown a combined 2 TDs / 6 INTs. But even with that said, Brady's career playoff numbers are mind-bogglingly good. Very, very, few QBs in history have put up the numbers Brady has. Joe Montana is one of the few.
Brady obviously doesn't have the regular season numbers Manning has, but Manning has nowhere near the postseason numbers Brady has. I value the postseason numbers a LOT more.
I'd take Brady still.
Why? We've seen what both can do. Manning has put up better numbers. But, his numbers are behind the same line, throwing to the same receivers, with the same OC, and even a longer career. Brady on the other hand has had a revolving door or receivers, 2 OC's, and less time.
Manning has now put together one postseason run where he made good decisions. Brady did it 3x. I'd consider them pretty much on par with one another, but because of the proven ability to perform in adverse conditions, I take Brady.
Why? We've seen what both can do. Manning has put up better numbers. But, his numbers are behind the same line, throwing to the same receivers, with the same OC, and even a longer career. Brady on the other hand has had a revolving door or receivers, 2 OC's, and less time.
Manning has now put together one postseason run where he made good decisions. Brady did it 3x. I'd consider them pretty much on par with one another, but because of the proven ability to perform in adverse conditions, I take Brady.
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
It will just never be enough for some people.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Brady.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
It's simple. Brady plays with a chip on his shoulder.
Kyzersosik
Footballguy
Since you asked, I`ll take Brady. 
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
By the same token, Brady has NEVER won without a great defense. In the last 5 years they've finished with a top 10 defense three times and a bottom 15 defense twice. I'll let you guess which years they won the Super Bowl...
Workhorse
Footballguy
If you look at this year's playoff run, Peyton hasn't won without a great defense either. The Colts defense played better than Peyton over the past 4 games.
H.K.
Footballguy
Congrats to Manning, he proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he had a great defense and a great running game, that he could win a Super Bowl. He did it with composure and leadership, and when it mattered, he finally came up big vs. NE. He didn't need gaudy stats to get the job done, he didn't need to place blame on others, he simply needed to lead. Good for him.The Colts are an amazing team, their defense was bad in the regular season this year due to injuries, but when they got everyone back, they were a buzz saw in the post season. Let's not forget that the Colts had the #2 D for points against last year and almost went unbeaten....before they flopped vs. Pitt. If Dungy did not suffer his personal tragedy, 2006 may have had a different ending. Indy is so freaking talented on both sides of the ball, that they should win at least one more before its all over.For now 3 rings > 1 ring. Brady has proved he can put up huge stats if thats what his team needs to win, so its not hard to see him putting up Manning numbers in the Colts system. Brady is still the obvious choice, but if Manning gets two more rings, it will be a real interesting debate.Here's the cool thing: Manning and Brady are in their prime - both have teams good enough to get to the playoffs - so we should have some pretty games games to watch in the future.
Banger
Footballguy
If he gets two more there will be no debate.
H.K.
Footballguy
Agreed. If Brady gets 5 rings, that would be unprecedented.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Exactly. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. Peyton couldn't carry the team to a championship, Brady never had to.I'll take Brady
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Brady. Manning is a great QB, one of the greatest of all time, but nothing seems to shake Brady.
That said I hope neither one ever sniffs another Super Bowl.
That said I hope neither one ever sniffs another Super Bowl.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
I think one thing is for sure - I'm going to enjoy the Manning Vs. Brady debates a lot more now. Brady is my guy, huge Pats homer, but even for me it gets tedious when everyone here can just rely on "Manning can't win the big game."
FWIW, I voted Manning but it's very close. I think any fan would be crazy to be anything than thrilled to have either guy as their QB.
Can't go wrong with either guy, they're both great.
J
Can't go wrong with either guy, they're both great.
J
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Kevin Ashcraft
Footballguy
Agreed, it comes down to preference, they are clearly the top 2 in the league. But my preference is towards Manning.The need to claim either guy is better, is preposterous.EDIT: I am a KC Homer....and Manning has knocked us out of the playoffs in '03 and '06....and I would still take him.
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mcintyre1
Footballguy
Tom Brady, Pittsburgh Steelers.
I have never seen Peyton Manning as a high character guy. He comes off as smug and arrogant to me. Whiny when losing. Yells at his teammates. Not what I want in the leadership role.
Not to say I think that highly of Tom Brady, but I do acknowledge his accomplishments, and to me, 3x SB rings >> Gaudy stats.
I have never seen Peyton Manning as a high character guy. He comes off as smug and arrogant to me. Whiny when losing. Yells at his teammates. Not what I want in the leadership role.
Not to say I think that highly of Tom Brady, but I do acknowledge his accomplishments, and to me, 3x SB rings >> Gaudy stats.
And if you acknowledge reality, Peyton has had just as good a defense in these playoffs as Brady has ever had. This playoff run by the Colts, and all except for the Colts 41-0 loss, the Colts D's have played just as well as the Pats D's. They've never given up more than 24 in a loss, outside of the 41 mentioned above. Regular season stats don't matter in the playoffs. This year, the Pats were the #2 defense in points against, set a team record, and still gave up 38 in the AFCCG. Facts matter in discussing these little issues. Without the Colts great D, Mannings abyssmal game against the Chiefs takes them out, regardless of where the D was ranked during the regular season. In reality, the offense led them to one vicotry, and that was the AFCCG. The rest of the run was all about the defense and running game. The rest was running the ball, defense and ball control dumping the ball off. Just like the Patriot wins. IT's a team game. The QB is there to make plays when they're needed. Manning was brilliant in second half of the AFCCG. That's what great players are there for, but to pretend that his horrible regular season defense wasn't one of the best defenses in the playoffs is just crazy.
MelKiperJr
Footballguy
Tom Brady and Jessica Alba - no doubt
bostonfred
Footballguy
Tom Brady's definitely hotter.
Case Ace
Footballguy
Manning still only has 1 Super Bowl to Brady's 3. So, it should be fairly obvious that Brady is 3 times as good as Manning. Here's the math: 3/1 = 3. Manning supporters shouldn't be too upset, however, because prior to last night Brady was infinitely better than Manning. Actually, it was undefined (3/0 = undefined). Fortunately, Manning won the Super Bowl (all by himself) last night, so now we are at least able to define how much better Brady is than Manning.
Despite the overwhelming evidence against him, I voted for Manning.
Despite the overwhelming evidence against him, I voted for Manning.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
It depends. Are we JUST TAKING the QB and no one else from these teams? By that I am making sure that you don't get the Pats defense and coaching staff if you take Brady and you don't get the Colts receivers and OL if you take Manning.
If that is the criteria, Manning is probably a more gifted QB skills wise, so I'm thinking he would help a majority of other teams more than Brady would. IMO, Brady is great for New England's system and philosophy but that wouldn't help a mediocre team as much as Manning would.
If that is the criteria, Manning is probably a more gifted QB skills wise, so I'm thinking he would help a majority of other teams more than Brady would. IMO, Brady is great for New England's system and philosophy but that wouldn't help a mediocre team as much as Manning would.
dparker713
Footballguy
For all the people that just count championships, why isnt Bradshaw tied with Montana as the best of all time. You dont count championships to determine greatness at any other position in the NFL, and its silly to have it be the primary determination of greatness for QBs.
BTW, I'd take McNabb before Brady too.
BTW, I'd take McNabb before Brady too.
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Thanks case.Jmatt jones
Footballguy
There is a reason Manning was the first overall pick and Brady was a sixth round pick... Manning is a two-time league MVP, Brady has never been a league MVP. The Colt's defense played great this time and he won the super bowl... Also, the Colts are going to repeat, write it down.
Tom Brady has been terrific. I call him Terrific Tom. But his name is Tom and that's only 3, where as Peyton, well that's 6. Also, those amazing receivers that Manning has, are never really amazing come post-season. As much as I like Marvin Harrison, he always is pedestrian come playoff time, he's small and plays the sidelines. Wayne is the guy come post-season. Also, wasn't the tight end the leading receiver?
Anywho they're both tastey but if I can have just one for the night, I'm going with Manning because he's huge.
Tom Brady has been terrific. I call him Terrific Tom. But his name is Tom and that's only 3, where as Peyton, well that's 6. Also, those amazing receivers that Manning has, are never really amazing come post-season. As much as I like Marvin Harrison, he always is pedestrian come playoff time, he's small and plays the sidelines. Wayne is the guy come post-season. Also, wasn't the tight end the leading receiver?
Anywho they're both tastey but if I can have just one for the night, I'm going with Manning because he's huge.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Really, I saw Bart Starr win five championships.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I'll take whichever allows me the greatest salary cap room and flexibility so that I have the best opportunity to build around them.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
IIRC, Brady was a backup at Michigan behind Brian Griese and Drew Henson before starting his last two seasons when he went 20-5. He was nowhere near as touted as Manning was, so draft position is a bit misleading (and doesn't matter at this point anyway).
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
It used to be Brady for me. But now it's a tie with regards to ability. Manning's character breaks the tie.
Case Ace
Footballguy
You're welcome.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Manning led Brady by 868 yards, 7 TDs, and 3 fewer INTs this year. That's impressive.
But take Harrison (95 receptions, 1366 yards, 12 TDs) off the team, and replace him with Troy Brown (35 years old, plays defense, 43 catches for 384 yards and 4 TDs this year) . How many yards and TDs do you think Manning drops off by?
Take Wayne (86 receptions, 1310 yards, 9 TDs) off the team, and replace him with Reche Caldwell (61 catches, 760 yards, 4 TDs). How many yards and TDs do you think Manning drops off by?
Just looking at the dropoff at the two starting wideout positions accounts for almost 1600 yards. Manning led Brady by 868 yards. Wayne and Harrison combined for 21 TDs. That's exactly how many were caught by all of Brady's tight ends and receivers put together.
And speaking of tight ends, I've seen the argument made that Brady's tight ends are much better receiving options than Manning's. But if you swap Manning's tight ends (85 receptions for 950 yards) for Brady's (81 receptions for 1040), there's not a huge dropoff. Graham is mostly an extra blocker, Watson is good but his hands were really inconsistent this year, and David Thomas is just learning the game. Clark and Utecht are both good receiving options, and Fletcher is outstanding for a TE3.
Then of course Brady would have to throw more to his running backs, right? Nope. Swap Manning's running backs (76 receptions for 556 yards) for Brady's (89 receptions for 755 yards) and it looks like there's a slight advantage to Brady, although it's hard to say because Brady throws more screen passes.
I think if you look at what Brady did this year with virtually zero wide receiver talent, it's every bit as impressive as what Manning did with the guys he has. If I were starting a team that didn't have a hall of fame wide receiver or a bunch of first rounders, I'd take the guy who could make my team a top passing offense by himself, over the guy who may or may not be able to do it.
But take Harrison (95 receptions, 1366 yards, 12 TDs) off the team, and replace him with Troy Brown (35 years old, plays defense, 43 catches for 384 yards and 4 TDs this year) . How many yards and TDs do you think Manning drops off by?
Take Wayne (86 receptions, 1310 yards, 9 TDs) off the team, and replace him with Reche Caldwell (61 catches, 760 yards, 4 TDs). How many yards and TDs do you think Manning drops off by?
Just looking at the dropoff at the two starting wideout positions accounts for almost 1600 yards. Manning led Brady by 868 yards. Wayne and Harrison combined for 21 TDs. That's exactly how many were caught by all of Brady's tight ends and receivers put together.
And speaking of tight ends, I've seen the argument made that Brady's tight ends are much better receiving options than Manning's. But if you swap Manning's tight ends (85 receptions for 950 yards) for Brady's (81 receptions for 1040), there's not a huge dropoff. Graham is mostly an extra blocker, Watson is good but his hands were really inconsistent this year, and David Thomas is just learning the game. Clark and Utecht are both good receiving options, and Fletcher is outstanding for a TE3.
Then of course Brady would have to throw more to his running backs, right? Nope. Swap Manning's running backs (76 receptions for 556 yards) for Brady's (89 receptions for 755 yards) and it looks like there's a slight advantage to Brady, although it's hard to say because Brady throws more screen passes.
I think if you look at what Brady did this year with virtually zero wide receiver talent, it's every bit as impressive as what Manning did with the guys he has. If I were starting a team that didn't have a hall of fame wide receiver or a bunch of first rounders, I'd take the guy who could make my team a top passing offense by himself, over the guy who may or may not be able to do it.
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
Can you help me out?Many times I hear one of Brady's amazing talents is to spread the ball around. Then I hear "give Brady Harrison and Wayne and see what happens"I hear the Patriots are nearly in perpetual rebuilding mode, have horrible WRs, always need LBs, etc yet Belichick and Polio are masters at managing the cap.I hear Manning is a choker and doesn't have "it" (well I probably won't hear that anymore) referring to his poor play in the playoffs, most notably again the Patriots time and time again. Then I hear the Patriots dynasty never gets enough credit for it's dominance.These are just a few examples that are confusing to me.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
redman
Footballguy
They've both shown without doubt that they set the standard for active QB's. Not even close.
Case Ace
Footballguy
If Manning hits Wayne for a 50-yard pass, that's great. However, if you take away Wayne's 50-yard reception, what does that leave Manning with? Zero yards passing ... pitiful.If QB A throws for alot more yards than QB B, you can't just say A's receivers had more yards so lets take away those yards & re-do the QB comparison. Obviously A's receivers are going to have noticeably better numbers because QB A is putting up better stats & he must be throwing to somebody.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Broncos fan here. I'd take Brady -- it's close, but I wouldn't hesitate.
Last night's game didn't make it any closer, although the AFC Championship comeback certainly did.
Given that Indy gets to host the Patriots this year, do you think this will be the league season opener? Or will Indy host someone else (Denver or New Orleans probably the best bets)?
Last night's game didn't make it any closer, although the AFC Championship comeback certainly did.
Given that Indy gets to host the Patriots this year, do you think this will be the league season opener? Or will Indy host someone else (Denver or New Orleans probably the best bets)?
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. I wasn't saying that, if you subtract out all the yards and touchdowns that Harrison and Wayne got, he'd have worse numbers than Brady. I think Manning would still have had very good numbers. The question I asked is how much would those numbers have dropped off if you swapped out two guys who caught 180 passes for 2700 yards and 21 TDs for the kind of receivers that Brady has played with for his career. If you don't think there would be any dropoff, then can you explain why the team is paying those two so much money? If you think there would be a dropoff, how much of one would you expect?
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't know if I can help you out because I don't understand what you're asking, but I'll try. Give Brady a #1 receiver, and he does throw to the guy. Troy Brown had 198 receptions in 2001-2002. They only went for 2100 yards and 8 TDs, though, because Brown is no Harrison. Harrison had 211 receptions in those same two years for 2937 yards and 29 TDs, and followed it up with a record breaking 143 reception season where he had 1722 yards. Brady has never had a guy like that. It's not inconsistent to ask what Brady could do with a hall of fame receiver like Harrison. The 2000 Patriots were a 5-11 team. The 2001 Patriots won the Superbowl. The reason people said that Belichick and Pioli had done such a great job at managing the cap is that they brought in a ton of quality free agents that nobody else chased after, got them cheaply, and massively upgraded the team. A guy like Antowain Smith, who was not a highly sought after running back, put up 1100 yards. A guy like Rodney Harrison, who was generally considered to be on the downside of his career, made a huge comeback with the Patriots. And the receivers have never been that good, but Brady's been able to find them. As for the last one, Manning had bad performances against lots of other teams besides the Patriots, and the Patriots beat lots of teams besides the Colts. I don't see why those two are incompatible at all.Hope that helps.
Jagerbomber
Footballguy
Peyton has had some less than stellar post-season stats but at the same time he's learning to manage the game and use what opposing defenses give him rather than force the issue. Peyton also calls his plays. Does that make him more impressive? (honestly I don't know, maybe this is a stupid point of comparison)
I think I'd be happy with either guy. It would all depend on what team you put around them. I'd still say Brady. for now.
I think I'd be happy with either guy. It would all depend on what team you put around them. I'd still say Brady. for now.
dparker713
Footballguy
You act like Harrison doesn't benefit from having Manning throwing to him. Its not just Brown's ability that causes the gap in stats between him and Harrison in this comparision. He also has a QB does not throw downfield nearly as much. He doesn't have the same ability to throw downfield that Peyton does. The offense and the schemes have reflected Brady's strength - short and screen passes. Occassionally they go slightly deeper.Put it to you this way, Peyton could run the Pats offense, Brady couldn't run the Colts.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm acting that. I didn't say that Harrison doesn't benefit from having Manning throw to him. I said Brady's never had a guy like Harrison, and I asked how much Manning's numbers would drop off if you replaced Harrison with Brown. I agree with you that Manning has helped Harrison's numbers. I think he's helped them lot more than, say, David Carr has helped Andre Johnson. If you put Manning on the Texans, I think Johnson's numbers would probably look closer to Harrison's. As another example, I think Favre has helped guys like Antonio Freeman and Greg Jennings look like upper echelon guys, when in reality they're decent receivers at best. I think Favre helped Javon Walker, but that Walker also helped Favre's numbers quite a bit, too, and this seems to have been borne out by Walker's numbers in Denver, the spike in Favre's numbers when Walker broke out, and the dropoff in his numbers when Walker left. So I think we can agree that there's a bit of a symbiotic relationship there. The thing is, I disagree that Brady can't throw it downfield. That used to be true, but he's really improved. It's hard to say how much, because he had no real deep threats this year, but most people who have watched Brady agree that he can go vertical when he wants to. If he had a guy like Harrison, I think we'd see him go deep a lot more often, and successfully. I agree that Manning throws a good deep ball, though, and probably better than Brady's. I don't think Manning throws the screen pass as well as Brady. You have to sell a screen, you have to time it, you have to have good enough footwork to avoid the sack, and you have to get touch on the pass while backpedaling. I don't think it would be impossible for Manning to learn to run the Patriots offense, but I don't give him the same credit you do as being able to run it with no problem while assuming that Brady would struggle to adjust to the Colts' offense. There are things that each does well. When all is said and done, they're both elite quarterbacks. I just think that we've seen that Brady can still play well without the offensive talent around him, while we haven't seen what Manning could do if he didn't have a fast receiver with good hands who could run every route in "the tree" without tipping off his route.
