Who's at fault here? Driving discussion (1 Viewer)

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

honorary 2014 MOP mathelete award winner™

 

[Fat Nick]

Bottom line is that, and I'll say it just to be clear, assuming you didn't intentionally hit him (gianmarco's hypothetical "playing chicken" scenario), it's likely going to be his fault because he was the one who had to yield.

I'd generally agree, but if you're at a stop and start driving, I'm presuming either (A) you saw what is in front of you and intentionally or recklessly drove into that vehicle or (B) you didn't look where you were driving and negligently operated your vehicle.

I guess it goes back to how you actually play chicken with someone. There's a pretty pre-defined arc that a turning car will take. I can typically move off the "line" enough to make them realize that they can't complete that turn without ever actually entering that arc. I also often have started to go when I see cars that I'm not sure are going to stop. Not saying I would hit them if they did, but I'm not sitting at a dead stop basically begging them to just go ahead either. Moving to indicate my intent to go, and not being passive and waiting for them to break the law.

It's truely hypothetical. I guess everyone says they can play chicken without hitting the other car until they actually hit them.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I honestly don't know how you can pin this on a car with the right-of-way unless he's just flat out hitting someone on purpose...not sure if that's the intent here or not. If it is, my apologies, but that's kind of irrational. There is an expectation that when the light turns green, you get to go. I agree with GDogg that if you don't have that expectation, the left-turning traffic would just keep going on and on and on.

I have an intersection like this on my way home, and every time, the cars turning left just keep going until the guy going straight mans up and goes. You basically have to play chicken with them to get them to stop because the traffic turning left usually sits for a while and gets impatient. I've basically come nose-to-nose with someone trying to turn several times. I won't hit them, but I try my darndest to make them think I would, while blaring my horn and flashing my lights, becuase they thought they could beat me across. Tailing the car in front of you as the arrow goes from yellow to just yield/green is one thing, entering the intersection to make a turn well after the green arrow is done and just assuming that you can get through b/c somebody won't hit you is another. Major doosh move.

This is exactly the situation. Now, let's say, while playing chicken, you actually hit their car (even if accidental). Who is at fault?

I once had a traffic cop tell me that regardless of right of way and following motoring laws, if you have the ability to prevent a collision and you don't, you can be ticketed. No idea how accurate that is, but if true applies to the chicken player.

Keep in mind, it takes two to tang....er...play chicken.

This is one of those highly circumstantial things that a cop probably says. I don't know of many people who would intentionally cause a collision. I'm not saying people don't do things that might increase their odds of a collision (speeding, squeaking through yellows, etc.) but I don't know anyone who would intentionally cause a collision.

OP's scenario seems to be exactly this. stopped at a red light, light turns green, sees cars in front blocking path, steps on gas and plows into them.

edit: this has been covered already. I missed it. carry on.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

For the record, I'm also a big fan of moving right up on top of a late left turn intersection-blocker and using horns, fingers, and blue language.

 

[Reegus]

For the record, I'm also a big fan of moving right up on top of a late left turn intersection-blocker and using horns, fingers, and blue language.

My favorite tactic is speeding at them and getting so close to them they panic veer and crash into something. I may or may not have made someone crash into someone else.

 

[larch]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

 

[FUBAR]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

That part seems like a horrible traffic concept. The sign might say to yield on green but how many drivers yield on green?

 

[GDogg]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

That part seems like a horrible traffic concept. The sign might say to yield on green but how many drivers yield on green?

It's probably 50-50 in L.A. County as to whether they switch to a green yield or whether it turns to a red arrow. There really aren't many problems and 99% of drivers yield when they are supposed to.

I make lefts at these type of intersections several times a day without problems or freaking out in confusion.

 

[Ignoramus]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

 

[TakiToki]

Obviously it's not okay to just floor it and slam into some piece of #### that runs the light because his time is more important than anyone else's. But I don't think I'd hate a world in which it were okay to do so.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

That part seems like a horrible traffic concept. The sign might say to yield on green but how many drivers yield on green?

The ones that don't get hit by on-coming traffic.

 

[FUBAR]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

That part seems like a horrible traffic concept. The sign might say to yield on green but how many drivers yield on green?

It's probably 50-50 in L.A. County as to whether they switch to a green yield or whether it turns to a red arrow. There really aren't many problems and 99% of drivers yield when they are supposed to.

I make lefts at these type of intersections several times a day without problems or freaking out in confusion.

Good to see you won't freak about it.

I'm just saying it can't be that surprising that people will push it when they still see green. It isn't complicated but seems a yellow would make more sense.

 

[GDogg]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

That part seems like a horrible traffic concept. The sign might say to yield on green but how many drivers yield on green?

It's probably 50-50 in L.A. County as to whether they switch to a green yield or whether it turns to a red arrow. There really aren't many problems and 99% of drivers yield when they are supposed to.

I make lefts at these type of intersections several times a day without problems or freaking out in confusion.

Good to see you won't freak about it.

I'm just saying it can't be that surprising that people will push it when they still see green. It isn't complicated but seems a yellow would make more sense.

A yellow makes more sense? I've only lived in two states, but I've never seen a yellow used as anything more than a 3-6 second warning that a red light is coming. There are flashing yellows that are used to warn the driver to proceed with caution, but no constantly illuminated yellows anywhere I've ever been or lived in the United States.

I think a constantly illuminated yellow would confuse the hell out of people unless they forced everyone to re-take driver's ed to learn about this new traffic signal.

 

[belljr]

When I win the lottery you know damn well when my light turns green, I'm going. A car illegally turning , tough #### you're getting hit

 

[gianmarco]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

The 2 turning lanes oppose each other. The intersection is large enough that the turns can be made without difficulty.

 

[gianmarco]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

Oh, it's there. The stupid thing is that the northbound traffic has a sign that specifically says "turn only on green arrow". No such sign exists for the southbound traffic so that it's ok to turn when it's just green as long as you yield (I believe there is a sign stating to yield on green). This is why the issue only occurs in one direction.

 

[sdp1226]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

 

[SWC]

here is what i do brohans i just let the intersection clear and then go on my way i get there about a minute or so longer than otherwise and my blood pressure stays low and then i do not have anything to feel like a jackalope about later and hey jagatoochies it is only driving if it gets you that worked up time to sit down and think about where you are heading and what matters take that to the truth bank bromigos

 

[Instinctive]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

 

[gianmarco]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

 

[mr roboto]

2 left turn lanes in each direction? So 4 total turn lanes?

 

[Instinctive]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

 

[sdp1226]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

No wonder there are so many accidents on this road.

 

[gianmarco]

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[gianmarco]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

No wonder there are so many accidents on this road.

There are no accidents. But this guy played the chicken game and almost hit one of the turning cars and I was wondering who would be at fault.

Also, I checked, and there's a sign that says "only turn on green arrow" in both directions. The reason it's an issue in only one direction is that the southbound side turns green first (both through lanes and both turn lanes). When the turn arrow goes from yellow to gone, then the northbound 2 through lanes get the green light. The northbound turn light doesn't come on until the southbound through lanes get a red light.

 

[Apple Jack]

So what you are essentially saying is, the northbound car hit the turning car on purpose. If that is the case, I find it hard to believe they are not at fault regardless of right of way.

It's up to the car turning at that point to yield. He disregarded his obligation to yield and just went hoping that nobody would hit him. They're both #######s, but the turner should be at fault legally.

You can't just hit the turning car intentionally.What if he had started to make the turn when the light was green but his car stalled in the intersection? When the light turns are you allowed to plow into him because you have the green light?

You can't SAY you hit the car intentionally. I thought that was the point of the exercise. Figured it goes without saying that you cannot deliberately hit somebody, as that might be i dunno maybe vehicular assault? attempted manslaughter?

 

[sdp1226]

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[FUBAR]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

The whole setup sounds like a death trap

 

[gianmarco]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

The whole setup sounds like a death trap

It's just a regular intersection.

 

[mr roboto]

Actually based on the drawing it's not that weird. Although there should absolutely be a clear red arrow for a double turn lane. No double turn lane should be allowed to turn left across traffic on green only. People have a hard enough ####### time staying in their own lane when the have a green arrow on a double left turn light.

 

[renesauz]

Don't insurance companies establish percentages in cases like this? I'd be generous and put it at 50/50. Someone breaking the rules of the road is no excuse not to exercise common sense and good judgment behind the wheel.

This. Both are at fault. You could call it 70-30, 50-50, or 30-70, depending on exactly how much time has passed, but both drivers share at least SOME blame.

 

[gianmarco]

Actually based on the drawing it's not that weird. Although there should absolutely be a clear red arrow for a double turn lane. No double turn lane should be allowed to turn left across traffic on green only. People have a hard enough ####### time staying in their own lane when the have a green arrow on a double left turn light.

I agree. Instead, they have "left turn only on green arrow", which is the same thing functionally but encourages the kind of behavior I described where multiple cars go well beyond the left turning arrow.

 

[17seconds]

If one of those northbound cars just decided to go when it was green and hits one of the left turning vehicles, whose fault would it be?

The city for creating the situation. Change how the lights work.

 

[mr roboto]

What state/municipality is this?

 

[sbonomo]

I hit a guy who did this. I was coming up to a red light and was slowing down. Light turned gree when I was doing like 25 mph and about 500 ft from the light. The turn lanes in my scenario turn to red so no turn on simple green.

A guy ran the red arrow and turned in front of me. I was plenty of distance away so he completed his turn about 1 second before I got into the intersection. As I got into the intersection (going prob 25) the guy BEHIND the truck that blew the red arrow (and had completely turned in front of me) went for it. I never saw him flying up the turn lane and nailed his front right bumper (he was at a 45 when I hit him and was ####### flying). Totaled my Escape. He was driving a Silverado.

Cops didn't declare fault. They couldn't understand why I was traveling into the intersection at that speed if I saw the previous cars turning illegally. But I hadn't been stopped at the red. I was traveling with speed when the light turned green and I timed my entry based on the one turner.

how close was the Silverado to the previous car? A turn at 45 in that truck had to have been "drifting". He must have been one hell of a driver...

 

[mr roboto]

I hit a guy who did this. I was coming up to a red light and was slowing down. Light turned gree when I was doing like 25 mph and about 500 ft from the light. The turn lanes in my scenario turn to red so no turn on simple green.

A guy ran the red arrow and turned in front of me. I was plenty of distance away so he completed his turn about 1 second before I got into the intersection. As I got into the intersection (going prob 25) the guy BEHIND the truck that blew the red arrow (and had completely turned in front of me) went for it. I never saw him flying up the turn lane and nailed his front right bumper (he was at a 45 when I hit him and was ####### flying). Totaled my Escape. He was driving a Silverado.

Cops didn't declare fault. They couldn't understand why I was traveling into the intersection at that speed if I saw the previous cars turning illegally. But I hadn't been stopped at the red. I was traveling with speed when the light turned green and I timed my entry based on the one turner.

how close was the Silverado to the previous car? A turn at 45 in that truck had to have been "drifting". He must have been one hell of a driver...

Huh? I'm just saying he completed about half his turn before I hit him. So when I struck his front right corner his Silverado was at a 45 degree angle to the road. Don't know if I'm saying this wrong or confusing. Before you start your turn you are parallel to the road you are traveling on. After you complete your turn you are at 90 degrees (if it's a right angle). HalfwY through your turn you are 45 degrees in relation to the road you are turning from.

 

[FUBAR]

Here's the scenario:

It's a 6 lane road... (effectively 4 lanes in each direction)...

Wait, this complicates things a bit.

Two left turn lanes that stay green after the turn arrow is off? Unlikely.

No. 4 lanes going north and four lanes going south equalling a 6 lane road.

4 + 4 = 6?

4 lanes + 2 turn lanes = 6 lanes. Each way. He meant 12 lane highway?Which still leaves a very odd double green yield turn lane problem.

No. 2 lanes for through traffic going north, 2 lanes for through traffic going south, and 2 left turn lanes in each direction that directly oppose each other. Total of 6 lanes for the entire street, no median.

So the 2 turn lanes in each direction overlap perfectly, no median is really the deal?That seems like terrible design.

The whole setup sounds like a death trap

It's just a regular intersection.

The intersection, sure.

But as your original post said, it's customary for 4-5 cars to go illegally. If it's customary, the city should know this happens and apparently hasn't done anything to fix it.