Who's better, MJD or Bush (1 Viewer)

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

This will be a fun thread to revisit in about 7 months.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

Funny that MJD enthusiasts are pouring on this "don't confuse didn't with can't" thing while refusing to think that the same might apply to Bush as more of a pure RB. I realize that I'm the minority here, but I think Bush would do even better playing the role of a traditional RB than he does playing this insane role the Saints have him in.And the Jags run-blocking line was probably the most underrated thing in all of football this past year.

 

[GDogg]

For those that think Maurice came out of nowhere to do what he did last year, here's a sampling from college where his receiving skills, return skills, rushing skills, and speed are all on display:

 

[GDogg]

It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

Funny that MJD enthusiasts are pouring on this "don't confuse didn't with can't" thing while refusing to think that the same might apply to Bush as more of a pure RB. I realize that I'm the minority here, but I think Bush would do even better playing the role of a traditional RB than he does playing this insane role the Saints have him in.And the Jags run-blocking line was probably the most underrated thing in all of football this past year.

How many games of Drew's, pro and college, have you seen? I have seen every single of one of them. Drew can catch from the slot and out as WR. UCLA did this with him. Jacksonville does not split their RBs wide. They run a different offense than the Saints. This isn't really that confusing.When did I even mention Bush in my post with regard to his ability as a RB, much less "refus[e]" anything about him?

 

[SSOG]

For you that don't know The Fanatic just recieved MJD in a trade and is now showing his homerism for the guy.

Is Fanatic an MJD fan because he just acquired him in a trade? Personally, I think it's *FAR* more likely that Fanatic acquired MJD in a trade because he's an MJD fan.Seriously, I hate all these "homer" accusations that fly around here. If I said that Steven Jackson was the best fantasy player available this year for months and months, people might disagree with it, but they'd at least listen. If I then got the #1 overall draft pick and picked up Jackson, everyone would call me a homer and dismiss my opinions outright. Apparently the only way I'm qualified to say that Steven Jackson is the #1 player in fantasy football is if I grab Tomlinson #1 overall.

Jurb, I respect your opinion and I think the numbers do show that MJD clearly had the better year and even a very slight edge in the 2nd half.

That being said, I do think that it is possible that MJD "snuck" up on the league a little bit. Teams did not spend the hours dissecting his tendencies as of yet, but teams were clearly preparing for Bush. Now this does not mean that I think Bush is better, I am just stating that it would be unfair to say that teams were as worried about MJD as they were Bush even if the talent around Bush was better. Watching film, there were times Bush was doubled coming out of the backfield which is really rare.

I think you can "sneak up" on the league for the first couple of games, maybe the first half of the season... but by the second half of the year, MJD was a known quantity. He was averaging over 5 yards per carry and getting a TD almost every game. Defensive coordinators knew who he was and what he was capable of, and his YPC only *INCREASED*.The "snuck up on the league" comment applies for a rookie Anquan Boldin (who saw a clear decline in his numbers in the second half), but not for a rookie MJD (who saw a clear increase).

Understand being a huge Jags fan I am somewhat biased, but

1. Given that one would be your feature back, which would you choose?

Running-Advantage MJD isn't speed and elusiveness running?

Running is taking the ball and producing yards- something that MJD is demonstrably better at than Reggie Bush. Running is not how you did in cone drills or on the 40.

 

[Sleeper 43]

Also "fanatic" if the Bucs throw the ball twice to Alstott and he comes down with both....does that mean he is a better wr than both Bush and MJD because his completition percentage is better? Might be the most flawed comment that I've ever heard come out of your mouth (or from your keyboard). It's probably alittle harder to get Reggie the ball when defenses know it is coming and are trying to defend it more.

"I've got a phenomenal RB with great hands. You have a pretty mediocre RB with pretty good hands. Remember, Quantity does not equal Quality."

You obviously didn't watch any games of Bush last year to make this statement...nevermind that is the most flawed comment to ever come out of your mouth (keyboard).

Tim, I hate to do this to you but you are asking me to make a fool of you so I shall. The comment about comparable stats means that you can't just look at two numbers and assume one makes a player better than another. In this case total number of receptions can't be looked at in order to assume who has the better hands. Opportunity plays a big role. These numbers are for arguments sake, because I don't know the actual targets. For arguments sake, if Bush had 150 targets and caught 89 of them and MJD had 60 targets and caught 46 of them, which has the better hands? Which made the most of the opportunities given. We all know that Bush got a lot of opportunities to catch the ball. Did he make more of those opportunities than what MJD with his? I don't know. But if you simply look at the number of catches a guy has and assume he has better hands then you are very short sighted which is pretty much evident by this post which shows an utter lack of understanding of statistics. Sure you can't say that a guy that was targetted twice and caught both is better because the two catches doesn't have enough statistical weight to be calculated. It's called statistical power.....Oh, never mind....Might as well

Oh, and gotta love you comment that the stats we are comparing are from last year Of course they are. What else are we supposed to compare? College stats? I'm sure those are comparable too, right. Reggie had a much better year so he must be the better back, right? What did I say all last offseason? With that O-Line at USC Bush never ran through holes. He ran through hallways opened by that massive O-line. Nobody gets that kinda room in the NFL and Reggie is behind the curve on running between the tackles because of it. Sure, he got better as the season went on, but not as much as MJD did.

I also loved how you wanted to take out MJD's long runs because they inflate his YPC Comedy. If we do the same for Bush, his numbers drop too. Maybe head back to college for a stats class.

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets becasue they a regarded by thier staff as a better reciever? I promise you MJD wont ever ever line up at WR like Bush will and run crisp routes.The rest of your comments i agree on.

It's pretty clear you never watched Maurice in college. He did just that in college. But, this is not part of Jacksonville's offensive scheme.It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

And, as for your numerous comments about speed - they are very close in speed. Reggie might beat him by a step in the 100, but that really isn't going to matter that much in the NFL. They both have elite speed.

Its also pretty clear college is a little different than the NFL. Hollar at me when MJD is lining up wide for the Jags at 5'7 (and yes they do have 3/4 wr sets). Theres TONS of players who play multiple positons in college due to athletic ability becasue theres only so much talent on said college team. They dont need to do that in the NFL. MJD also played Linebacker in high-school but they didnt untilize him as a LB at Cal. No one here will convince me MJD has Reggie's hands period , im not stubborn but Bush is more than a Runningback with good hands people.

 

[Sleeper 43]

It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

Funny that MJD enthusiasts are pouring on this "don't confuse didn't with can't" thing while refusing to think that the same might apply to Bush as more of a pure RB. I realize that I'm the minority here, but I think Bush would do even better playing the role of a traditional RB than he does playing this insane role the Saints have him in.And the Jags run-blocking line was probably the most underrated thing in all of football this past year.

How many games of Drew's, pro and college, have you seen? I have seen every single of one of them. Drew can catch from the slot and out as WR. UCLA did this with him. Jacksonville does not split their RBs wide. They run a different offense than the Saints. This isn't really that confusing.When did I even mention Bush in my post with regard to his ability as a RB, much less "refus[e]" anything about him?

So teams wont change there playbook up if they have such a sure handed RB, funny other teams seem ot implment new lays all the time because teams try to maximize the talent they have. The problem is he's 5 foot 7 , hell most corners now are 6 ft, this aint college ball anymore.

 

[Sleeper 43]

For those that think Maurice came out of nowhere to do what he did last year, here's a sampling from college where his receiving skills, return skills, rushing skills, and speed are all on display:

This isnt a war on MJD its just people are trying to compare him to Reggie Bush, arguably the most versatile player the NFL has seen based off everything leading to this point , everything that we have to look at .1 year of NFL , College and High School

AND god forbid you start a highlight war........

 

[Sleeper 43]

I think Reggie is the whole key to that offense and D coordiantors do plan to take him out of the game. MJD isn't half the wr that Bush is or they would have passed it more to him considering no one else could catch the ball on that team lst year. Now I'll agree short yardage MJD is definetly the better back and probably inbetween the tackles also but give Reggie time. Just like the second half of the season last year all he needs is one play to get his #'s.

Before you dismiss the small guy's receiving talents, MJD did have 46 receptions (3 games he had 0 receptions) so he seems to be a serviceable receiver out of the backfield. Now his being 5'6" wont make him the best option to split out in the slot or wide like Reggie Bush occasionally would line up for the Saints.MJD seems like the kind of reliable, consistent week to week 80-100 combined yards & 1 TD, while Bush is feast or famine--50 combined yards, or 150-200 total yards and 3-4 TDs.

Try comparing their gamelogs from last season and see if you still feel that way.

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets becasue they a regarded by thier staff as a better reciever?

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets because his team made him the highest paid RB in the entire NFL and figured since they were paying him such an insane amount of money, they had to use him a lot?Unless, of course, you think Ryan Leaf got so many pass attempts because he had his team convinced that he was the best player on the roster. And Boller lasted so long with Baltimore because he kept showing the coaches so much on the field.

Now SSOG you really believe come play-off time they went to Bush because of his salary or maybe because hes the most explosive weapon they have on there team any given play? I tend to believe coaches goto the people they believe in when it counts. And if Del Rio felt MJD was a great reciever perhaps he would have utilized him more.

 

[GDogg]

Also "fanatic" if the Bucs throw the ball twice to Alstott and he comes down with both....does that mean he is a better wr than both Bush and MJD because his completition percentage is better? Might be the most flawed comment that I've ever heard come out of your mouth (or from your keyboard). It's probably alittle harder to get Reggie the ball when defenses know it is coming and are trying to defend it more.

"I've got a phenomenal RB with great hands. You have a pretty mediocre RB with pretty good hands. Remember, Quantity does not equal Quality."

You obviously didn't watch any games of Bush last year to make this statement...nevermind that is the most flawed comment to ever come out of your mouth (keyboard).

Tim, I hate to do this to you but you are asking me to make a fool of you so I shall. The comment about comparable stats means that you can't just look at two numbers and assume one makes a player better than another. In this case total number of receptions can't be looked at in order to assume who has the better hands. Opportunity plays a big role. These numbers are for arguments sake, because I don't know the actual targets. For arguments sake, if Bush had 150 targets and caught 89 of them and MJD had 60 targets and caught 46 of them, which has the better hands? Which made the most of the opportunities given. We all know that Bush got a lot of opportunities to catch the ball. Did he make more of those opportunities than what MJD with his? I don't know. But if you simply look at the number of catches a guy has and assume he has better hands then you are very short sighted which is pretty much evident by this post which shows an utter lack of understanding of statistics. Sure you can't say that a guy that was targetted twice and caught both is better because the two catches doesn't have enough statistical weight to be calculated. It's called statistical power.....Oh, never mind....Might as well

Oh, and gotta love you comment that the stats we are comparing are from last year Of course they are. What else are we supposed to compare? College stats? I'm sure those are comparable too, right. Reggie had a much better year so he must be the better back, right? What did I say all last offseason? With that O-Line at USC Bush never ran through holes. He ran through hallways opened by that massive O-line. Nobody gets that kinda room in the NFL and Reggie is behind the curve on running between the tackles because of it. Sure, he got better as the season went on, but not as much as MJD did.

I also loved how you wanted to take out MJD's long runs because they inflate his YPC Comedy. If we do the same for Bush, his numbers drop too. Maybe head back to college for a stats class.

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets becasue they a regarded by thier staff as a better reciever? I promise you MJD wont ever ever line up at WR like Bush will and run crisp routes.The rest of your comments i agree on.

It's pretty clear you never watched Maurice in college. He did just that in college. But, this is not part of Jacksonville's offensive scheme.It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

And, as for your numerous comments about speed - they are very close in speed. Reggie might beat him by a step in the 100, but that really isn't going to matter that much in the NFL. They both have elite speed.

Its also pretty clear college is a little different than the NFL. Hollar at me when MJD is lining up wide for the Jags at 5'7 (and yes they do have 3/4 wr sets). Theres TONS of players who play multiple positons in college due to athletic ability becasue theres only so much talent on said college team. They dont need to do that in the NFL. MJD also played Linebacker in high-school but they didnt untilize him as a LB at Cal. No one here will convince me MJD has Reggie's hands period , im not stubborn but Bush is more than a Runningback with good hands people.

I never said the NFL was the same as college. Can you name me the TONS of players who play multiple positions in college? I can only think of a few right now. Maurice Drew couldn't have been utilized as a linebacker at Cal. He didn't go to Cal. He went to UCLA.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply refuting your claim that Drew will "never line up at WR and run crisp routes." Never is an awful long time. He's had one year in the NFL. He did it a lot in college. I'm not saying that he will, but I am saying that he can and has demonstrated that before.

No one here will convince you that he has Reggie's hands because it's clear you won't allow yourself to be convinced. It doesn't appear that any argument will sway you. Drew has a better reception %. You reply that this isn't indicative of his hands because Reggie had more targets, and thus, more faith from his coaching staff. If you say so...

 

[Sleeper 43]

Understand being a huge Jags fan I am somewhat biased, but1. Given that one would be your feature back, which would you choose?Running-Advantage MJDBlocking- Advantage MJDRecieveing- Advantage BushGoaline running- Advantage MJDDuarability- Advantage MJD2. In their current situations for the 2007 year I have a feeling that from a FF standpoint GJones is going to have a much lareger impact on MJD than most anticpate. Nearly 70% of his Tds were 8 yards and in, he will not get those carries with a healthy GJones, Del Rio loves this guy and he will get the mass majority of short yardage and goal line carries. For these reasons I would take Bush before MJD as a FF owner.

1- Running - Between the tackles Drew / on the outside Bush2- Blocking - Ok sure ill give it to MJD3 Receiving - Bush 4- Goaline Running - up the gut MJD / on the outside or a pass on the goaline Bush (Ive seen Bush hop over a pile with the best of them too)5 -Durability - this is toss upForgot one6- Game-Breaking potential Bush7 - Versatility - Bush 8 -Quick Twitch - Bush (can stop on a dime and resume full speed faster than anyone Ive ever seen play)

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Jones-Drew:

155 rushes, 7 of them for 20+ yards

46 receptions, 5 of them for 20+ yards

Bush:

166 rushes, zero for 20+ yards

88 receptions, 5 of them for 20+ yards

So with the application of a complicated new invention I like to call "math," I come up with the following...

Bush 254 touches, 5 over 20 yards = 1/51 touches

Jones-Drew 212 touches, 12 over 20 yards = 1/18 touches

In other words, Drew was ~3x more likely to bust a long play than Bush. So how exactly is Bush the more elusive, shiftier, more dangerous player again? How is Bush the one that causes D Coordinators to game plan for him?

 

[Sleeper 43]

Also "fanatic" if the Bucs throw the ball twice to Alstott and he comes down with both....does that mean he is a better wr than both Bush and MJD because his completition percentage is better? Might be the most flawed comment that I've ever heard come out of your mouth (or from your keyboard). It's probably alittle harder to get Reggie the ball when defenses know it is coming and are trying to defend it more.

"I've got a phenomenal RB with great hands. You have a pretty mediocre RB with pretty good hands. Remember, Quantity does not equal Quality."

You obviously didn't watch any games of Bush last year to make this statement...nevermind that is the most flawed comment to ever come out of your mouth (keyboard).

Tim, I hate to do this to you but you are asking me to make a fool of you so I shall. The comment about comparable stats means that you can't just look at two numbers and assume one makes a player better than another. In this case total number of receptions can't be looked at in order to assume who has the better hands. Opportunity plays a big role. These numbers are for arguments sake, because I don't know the actual targets. For arguments sake, if Bush had 150 targets and caught 89 of them and MJD had 60 targets and caught 46 of them, which has the better hands? Which made the most of the opportunities given. We all know that Bush got a lot of opportunities to catch the ball. Did he make more of those opportunities than what MJD with his? I don't know. But if you simply look at the number of catches a guy has and assume he has better hands then you are very short sighted which is pretty much evident by this post which shows an utter lack of understanding of statistics. Sure you can't say that a guy that was targetted twice and caught both is better because the two catches doesn't have enough statistical weight to be calculated. It's called statistical power.....Oh, never mind....Might as well

Oh, and gotta love you comment that the stats we are comparing are from last year Of course they are. What else are we supposed to compare? College stats? I'm sure those are comparable too, right. Reggie had a much better year so he must be the better back, right? What did I say all last offseason? With that O-Line at USC Bush never ran through holes. He ran through hallways opened by that massive O-line. Nobody gets that kinda room in the NFL and Reggie is behind the curve on running between the tackles because of it. Sure, he got better as the season went on, but not as much as MJD did.

I also loved how you wanted to take out MJD's long runs because they inflate his YPC Comedy. If we do the same for Bush, his numbers drop too. Maybe head back to college for a stats class.

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets becasue they a regarded by thier staff as a better reciever? I promise you MJD wont ever ever line up at WR like Bush will and run crisp routes.The rest of your comments i agree on.

It's pretty clear you never watched Maurice in college. He did just that in college. But, this is not part of Jacksonville's offensive scheme.It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

And, as for your numerous comments about speed - they are very close in speed. Reggie might beat him by a step in the 100, but that really isn't going to matter that much in the NFL. They both have elite speed.

Its also pretty clear college is a little different than the NFL. Hollar at me when MJD is lining up wide for the Jags at 5'7 (and yes they do have 3/4 wr sets). Theres TONS of players who play multiple positons in college due to athletic ability becasue theres only so much talent on said college team. They dont need to do that in the NFL. MJD also played Linebacker in high-school but they didnt untilize him as a LB at Cal. No one here will convince me MJD has Reggie's hands period , im not stubborn but Bush is more than a Runningback with good hands people.

I never said the NFL was the same as college. Can you name me the TONS of players who play multiple positions in college? I can only think of a few right now. Maurice Drew couldn't have been utilized as a linebacker at Cal. He didn't go to Cal. He went to UCLA.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply refuting your claim that Drew will "never line up at WR and run crisp routes." Never is an awful long time. He's had one year in the NFL. He did it a lot in college. I'm not saying that he will, but I am saying that he can and has demonstrated that before.

No one here will convince you that he has Reggie's hands because it's clear you won't allow yourself to be convinced. It doesn't appear that any argument will sway you. Drew has a better reception %. You reply that this isn't indicative of his hands because Reggie had more targets, and thus, more faith from his coaching staff. If you say so...

So yes UCLA not Cal my bad, yet you still did'nt address the question, fact remains he played LB in High school not in college, point is as you go up the ladder in sports you get used for you very best abilities and I have yet to see the Jags make adjustments becasue MJD is a superior catcher. Ok lets simplify here, how many just plain Wideouts in the NFL are 5'7 ? Then how many WR's are 5'7 and successful?

O and off the top of my head Eric Whettle (sp?) played 3+ postions

 

[Sleeper 43]

Jones-Drew:155 rushes, 7 of them for 20+ yards46 receptions, 5 of them for 20+ yardsBush:166 rushes, zero for 20+ yards88 receptions, 5 of them for 20+ yardsSo with the application of a complicated new invention I like to call "math," I come up with the following...Bush 254 touches, 5 over 20 yards = 1/51 touchesJones-Drew 212 touches, 12 over 20 yards = 1/18 touchesIn other words, Drew was ~3x more likely to bust a long play than Bush. So how exactly is Bush the more elusive, shiftier, more dangerous player again? How is Bush the one that causes D Coordinators to game plan for him?

Bro - I've seen these stats in 20 diff formats, MJD's got the stats I concede.but a. its been 1 year and b. I think Reggie Bush hasnt maxed out what he can do and I think MJD cant do much more than he did last year not stats wise but with his talent.Lets just be happy Drew is one of the few short people that got an opportunity to play and took advantage of it. I like the little guy I really do, hes a stud, but Reggie Bush is Reggie Bush, its always easier to root for the underdog but im stickin to my guns, its not Reggie fault he been hyped for so long.

 

[GDogg]

For those that think Maurice came out of nowhere to do what he did last year, here's a sampling from college where his receiving skills, return skills, rushing skills, and speed are all on display:

In what way is Reggie more versatile? They both play RB. Drew put up better numbers. They both catch balls out of the backfield. Drew was more productive in those opportunities. They both were returners. Drew was 3rd in the league in yards/return (kickoffs). Bush was taken off punt return duties and was 25th in the league in yards/return (punts).So, which is the more versatile player? I guess Reggie did throw an INT in his only pass attempt.

You say everything (NFL, college, and high school), but you discounted college stats in your previous post. Besides, their stats weren't really that far off from each other. In 2004, Drew rushed for more yards and averaged 6.3 ypc. Reggie averaged 6.4 ypc. In 2005, Reggie had a much better year running the ball, but their receiving stats were comparable; Reggie had 37 rec., 478 yards (12.9 avg.); Maurice had 31 rec., 453 yards (14.6 avg.).

I'm not starting a highlight war. It was supposed to be educational. I honestly don't think very many people on this board saw Maurice Drew play in college. UCLA's games were either on Fox Sports Net (regional) or ABC (regional).

 

[GDogg]

Also "fanatic" if the Bucs throw the ball twice to Alstott and he comes down with both....does that mean he is a better wr than both Bush and MJD because his completition percentage is better? Might be the most flawed comment that I've ever heard come out of your mouth (or from your keyboard). It's probably alittle harder to get Reggie the ball when defenses know it is coming and are trying to defend it more.

"I've got a phenomenal RB with great hands. You have a pretty mediocre RB with pretty good hands. Remember, Quantity does not equal Quality."

You obviously didn't watch any games of Bush last year to make this statement...nevermind that is the most flawed comment to ever come out of your mouth (keyboard).

Tim, I hate to do this to you but you are asking me to make a fool of you so I shall. The comment about comparable stats means that you can't just look at two numbers and assume one makes a player better than another. In this case total number of receptions can't be looked at in order to assume who has the better hands. Opportunity plays a big role. These numbers are for arguments sake, because I don't know the actual targets. For arguments sake, if Bush had 150 targets and caught 89 of them and MJD had 60 targets and caught 46 of them, which has the better hands? Which made the most of the opportunities given. We all know that Bush got a lot of opportunities to catch the ball. Did he make more of those opportunities than what MJD with his? I don't know. But if you simply look at the number of catches a guy has and assume he has better hands then you are very short sighted which is pretty much evident by this post which shows an utter lack of understanding of statistics. Sure you can't say that a guy that was targetted twice and caught both is better because the two catches doesn't have enough statistical weight to be calculated. It's called statistical power.....Oh, never mind....Might as well

Oh, and gotta love you comment that the stats we are comparing are from last year Of course they are. What else are we supposed to compare? College stats? I'm sure those are comparable too, right. Reggie had a much better year so he must be the better back, right? What did I say all last offseason? With that O-Line at USC Bush never ran through holes. He ran through hallways opened by that massive O-line. Nobody gets that kinda room in the NFL and Reggie is behind the curve on running between the tackles because of it. Sure, he got better as the season went on, but not as much as MJD did.

I also loved how you wanted to take out MJD's long runs because they inflate his YPC Comedy. If we do the same for Bush, his numbers drop too. Maybe head back to college for a stats class.

Is it fair to say one person might get more targets becasue they a regarded by thier staff as a better reciever? I promise you MJD wont ever ever line up at WR like Bush will and run crisp routes.The rest of your comments i agree on.

It's pretty clear you never watched Maurice in college. He did just that in college. But, this is not part of Jacksonville's offensive scheme.It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

And, as for your numerous comments about speed - they are very close in speed. Reggie might beat him by a step in the 100, but that really isn't going to matter that much in the NFL. They both have elite speed.

Its also pretty clear college is a little different than the NFL. Hollar at me when MJD is lining up wide for the Jags at 5'7 (and yes they do have 3/4 wr sets). Theres TONS of players who play multiple positons in college due to athletic ability becasue theres only so much talent on said college team. They dont need to do that in the NFL. MJD also played Linebacker in high-school but they didnt untilize him as a LB at Cal. No one here will convince me MJD has Reggie's hands period , im not stubborn but Bush is more than a Runningback with good hands people.

I never said the NFL was the same as college. Can you name me the TONS of players who play multiple positions in college? I can only think of a few right now. Maurice Drew couldn't have been utilized as a linebacker at Cal. He didn't go to Cal. He went to UCLA.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply refuting your claim that Drew will "never line up at WR and run crisp routes." Never is an awful long time. He's had one year in the NFL. He did it a lot in college. I'm not saying that he will, but I am saying that he can and has demonstrated that before.

No one here will convince you that he has Reggie's hands because it's clear you won't allow yourself to be convinced. It doesn't appear that any argument will sway you. Drew has a better reception %. You reply that this isn't indicative of his hands because Reggie had more targets, and thus, more faith from his coaching staff. If you say so...

So yes UCLA not Cal my bad, yet you still did'nt address the question, fact remains he played LB in High school not in college, point is as you go up the ladder in sports you get used for you very best abilities and I have yet to see the Jags make adjustments becasue MJD is a superior catcher. Ok lets simplify here, how many just plain Wideouts in the NFL are 5'7 ? Then how many WR's are 5'7 and successful?

O and off the top of my head Eric Whettle (sp?) played 3+ postions

Eric Weddle makes up TONS of players in college playing multiple positions?Here's a pretty good receiver that is only two inches taller than Drew: Midget. I think he's pretty successful.

He didn't play LB in college because he played RB. There are very, very few players that go both ways in college, notwithstanding the mounds of evidence you have given to the contrary (Eric Weddle). The Jags have made adjustments for Drew being a superior catcher - they have him returning kicks.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It's not that Maurice can't, but that Jacksonville won't put him out there.

Funny that MJD enthusiasts are pouring on this "don't confuse didn't with can't" thing while refusing to think that the same might apply to Bush as more of a pure RB. I realize that I'm the minority here, but I think Bush would do even better playing the role of a traditional RB than he does playing this insane role the Saints have him in.And the Jags run-blocking line was probably the most underrated thing in all of football this past year.

How many games of Drew's, pro and college, have you seen? I have seen every single of one of them. Drew can catch from the slot and out as WR. UCLA did this with him. Jacksonville does not split their RBs wide. They run a different offense than the Saints. This isn't really that confusing.When did I even mention Bush in my post with regard to his ability as a RB, much less "refus[e]" anything about him?

I was in no way saying that MJD couldn't split out a WR, nor did I mean to incinuate that you personally said any of those things about Bush. I just found it comical that there have been at least a half dozen people come into this thread and say that Reggie was a bad inside runner and/or that Reggie can't be a feature back just because he (like MJD with lining up at WR) wasn't asked to do it last year. Then, someone comes on here and says that it's ridiculous to claim MJD can't do something just because he wasn't asked to when the same has been done to Bush 10 times over in this thread, even if it wasn't by you personally. It's not like Bush's heisman numbers at USC all came on screen passes and toss plays.And FWIW, I saw quite a bit of MJD in college as I'm a huuuuuuuuge college football fan and love the draft as well. I made a point to watch him a few times and while I don't claim to have seen nearly as much of him as you have, I would say that I've seen plenty to make a pretty decent judgement about him. And of course, everyone saw lots of Bush.I am in no way trying to say anything bad about MJD, and I happen to think he's underrated as a RB myself (anyone that says he can't handle the full time gig is kidding themselves - this guy is going to be even more of a monster when Taylor gets outta town), I just think Bush is better.

 

[Dirty Weasel]

I was in no way saying that MJD couldn't split out a WR, nor did I mean to incinuate that you personally said any of those things about Bush. I just found it comical that there have been at least a half dozen people come into this thread and say that Reggie was a bad inside runner and/or that Reggie can't be a feature back just because he (like MJD with lining up at WR) wasn't asked to do it last year. Then, someone comes on here and says that it's ridiculous to claim MJD can't do something just because he wasn't asked to when the same has been done to Bush 10 times over in this thread, even if it wasn't by you personally. It's not like Bush's heisman numbers at USC all came on screen passes and toss plays.

And FWIW, I saw quite a bit of MJD in college as I'm a huuuuuuuuge college football fan and love the draft as well. I made a point to watch him a few times and while I don't claim to have seen nearly as much of him as you have, I would say that I've seen plenty to make a pretty decent judgement about him. And of course, everyone saw lots of Bush.

I am in no way trying to say anything bad about MJD, and I happen to think he's underrated as a RB myself (anyone that says he can't handle the full time gig is kidding themselves - this guy is going to be even more of a monster when Taylor gets outta town), I just think Bush is better.

 

[Buttmonkey]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

I MJD.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1975 chi |  13 |   196	679	3.5	7 |	33	213   6.5	0 |

Notice the ypc there. I'm just saying...

 

[Zigg]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

And another argument from someone who has never seen Bush play and just looks at stats. Over his last 10 games:90/429 4.8 pc - 52/589 11.2 pr - 10 TDsIf you want to argue that MJD had a better season and has a brighter future, you have a solid case to make. If you think Bush supporters are funny and can't see the forest through the trees, then fantasy football might not be for you.I would just like to add two more things:1)For people comparing blocking, Bush is actually a pretty solid pass blocker2)Why GMs discount RBs because of height confuses me

 

[TheFanatic]

And another argument from someone who has never seen Bush play and just looks at stats. Over his last 10 games:90/429 4.8 pc - 52/589 11.2 pr - 10 TDsIf you want to argue that MJD had a better season and has a brighter future, you have a solid case to make. If you think Bush supporters are funny and can't see the forest through the trees, then fantasy football might not be for you.I would just like to add two more things:1)For people comparing blocking, Bush is actually a pretty solid pass blocker2)Why GMs discount RBs because of height confuses me

Someone who obviously jumped into this thread late without reading the entire thing. This was addressed already. Sure, Bush's YPC over the second half was much higher than his season average of 3.6. But what the blind Bush supporters like you fail to take into account is that MJD had a much higher YPC in the second half than his 5.6 YPC season average. Bush's second half YPC wasn't even up to what MJD had for the season and that's with you trying to cherry pick the stats. MJD for the second half was at something like 6.27. Got anything else? Wanna take out MJD's long runs to even out the stats because Bush didn't have any? Shall we look at just even numbered Sundays? I know, let's look at just plays Bush did well and none of the plays MJD did well. That will paint a much clearer picture of this and show Bush to be the better RB.

 

[switz]

MJD is a better runner, almost as good a receiver, and a better returner. Better at the goalline, better at scoring TD's overall. Just as explosive and elusive. MJD had a 74 yd run, a 51 yd Rec and a 93 yd return. Bush had an 18 yd run( ), a 74 yd rec and a 65 yd return. The ONLY thing you can maybe say is Bush is a slightly better receiver, but then again, he had Brees checking down to him versus Garrard and Leftwich.The numbers don't lie. If you want to use them to prove that Bush is the better receiver, then you must give MJD the edge in EVERY other category.

Sounds like an MJD fan here. Drew is good, but anyone wathcing the games would say Bush is better. Huge margin? No. But is there a difference? Clearly yes.Stats don't tell a complete story. There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.One thing is for sure... as far as value goes, MJD was a far better value last year. Who knows about this year yet, it's not written in the history books.

 

[switz]

point is as you go up the ladder in sports you get used for you very best abilities and I have yet to see the Jags make adjustments becasue MJD is a superior catcher.

The Jags have made adjustments for Drew being a superior catcher - they have him returning kicks.

Umm... you do know returning kicks is not an indication of being a superior receiver, right? Come on this is football 101. That argument should get you banned from the shark pool.

 

[GDogg]

point is as you go up the ladder in sports you get used for you very best abilities and I have yet to see the Jags make adjustments becasue MJD is a superior catcher.

The Jags have made adjustments for Drew being a superior catcher - they have him returning kicks.

Umm... you do know returning kicks is not an indication of being a superior receiver, right? Come on this is football 101. That argument should get you banned from the shark pool.

It was a half joke.But, you do know that coaches aren't going to put players back to receive punts or kicks who can't catch, right? Come on this is football 101.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

And another argument from someone who has never seen Bush play and just looks at stats. Over his last 10 games:90/429 4.8 pc - 52/589 11.2 pr - 10 TDsIf you want to argue that MJD had a better season and has a brighter future, you have a solid case to make. If you think Bush supporters are funny and can't see the forest through the trees, then fantasy football might not be for you.I would just like to add two more things:1)For people comparing blocking, Bush is actually a pretty solid pass blocker2)Why GMs discount RBs because of height confuses me

Someone who obviously jumped into this thread late without reading the entire thing. This was addressed already. Sure, Bush's YPC over the second half was much higher than his season average of 3.6. But what the blind Bush supporters like you fail to take into account is that MJD had a much higher YPC in the second half than his 5.6 YPC season average. Bush's second half YPC wasn't even up to what MJD had for the season and that's with you trying to cherry pick the stats. MJD for the second half was at something like 6.27. Got anything else? Wanna take out MJD's long runs to even out the stats because Bush didn't have any? Shall we look at just even numbered Sundays? I know, let's look at just plays Bush did well and none of the plays MJD did well. That will paint a much clearer picture of this and show Bush to be the better RB.

While you're on the subject of people not reading things, maybe you should read the post that that guy was replying to.I don't think it was ever his intent to say that Bush's second half was better than MJD's, but rather he was just replying to the guy who basically insinuated that Bush was an awful RB because his YPC was 3.6 and anyone that thought differently was a hype-driven #######.It's called context.

 

[Wadsworth]

MJD is a better runner, almost as good a receiver, and a better returner. Better at the goalline, better at scoring TD's overall. Just as explosive and elusive. MJD had a 74 yd run, a 51 yd Rec and a 93 yd return. Bush had an 18 yd run( ), a 74 yd rec and a 65 yd return.

The ONLY thing you can maybe say is Bush is a slightly better receiver, but then again, he had Brees checking down to him versus Garrard and Leftwich.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to use them to prove that Bush is the better receiver, then you must give MJD the edge in EVERY other category.

Sounds like an MJD fan here. Drew is good, but anyone wathcing the games would say Bush is better. Huge margin? No. But is there a difference? Clearly yes.

Stats don't tell a complete story. There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.

One thing is for sure... as far as value goes, MJD was a far better value last year. Who knows about this year yet, it's not written in the history books.

Both guys have one year in the NFL. In that season Drew averged almost 2 yards more per carry and slightly more per catch, scored more TDs and you say Bush is clearly the better? Come on. Bush is much better at making defenders miss completely, but Drew can make them miss or can run through arm tackles. Sure, Bush looked All-World on a few plays from last season but over the course of the season Drew was much more productive both fantasy and NFL wise. Breaking an arm tackle might not look as good on ESPN as faking a guy out of his shoes, but it works just as well or better. Does Bush have a higher ceiling? Perhaps, but I thought we were talking about who was better right now. This thread really drives home the lack of national exposure for the Jaguars because I can only assume that some people have the opinions they have from lack of exposure. Drew was a first down machine and a threat to break a long one everytime he touched the ball. He ran around, through, over and past defenders all season long. The guy was electric. Is Bush also electric? Without a doubt, but to say Bush was clearly better is a dumbfounding statement. What is clear is that Drew outperformed Bush in almost every possible way you'd want to measure a RBs production inspite of playing on a less than dynamic offensive team.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Both guys have one year in the NFL. In that season Drew averged almost 2 yards more per carry and slightly more per catch, scored more TDs and you say Bush is clearly the better? Come on. Bush is much better at making defenders miss completely, but Drew can make them miss or can run through arm tackles. Sure, Bush looked All-World on a few plays from last season but over the course of the season Drew was much more productive both fantasy and NFL wise. Breaking an arm tackle might not look as good on ESPN as faking a guy out of his shoes, but it works just as well or better. Does Bush have a higher ceiling? Perhaps, but I thought we were talking about who was better right now. This thread really drives home the lack of national exposure for the Jaguars because I can only assume that some people have the opinions they have from lack of exposure. Drew was a first down machine and a threat to break a long one everytime he touched the ball. He ran around, through, over and past defenders all season long. The guy was electric. Is Bush also electric? Without a doubt, but to say Bush was clearly better is a dumbfounding statement. What is clear is that Drew outperformed Bush in almost every possible way you'd want to measure a RBs production inspite of playing on a less than dynamic offensive team.

Ya know, I'm one of the Bush supporters in here and I agree with a lot of what you said about MJD. I happen to think MJD is underrated himself, but still not as good as Bush.To your last point about exposure, I live in Gainesville and as such get just about every Jags game on TV here. While it did lead to me seeing a lot of the same that you saw in MJD, what I saw is that not only is MJD underrated as a RB, but the Jags run-blocking line is probably even MORE underrated, and may be the most underrated thing I saw in the entire NFL this year.I honestly believe that if you take the player that Bush is right now and stick him in last year's Jags offense and give him the same opportunities as MJD that he puts up even better numbers. I realize I'm in the minority in that because there are these stigmas that Bush is only a gimmick player and that the New Orleans offense was so good that it is was the ideal situation for a RB, but if I were given the choice of Jax or New Orleans for any of the RBs on my fantasy squad I would pick Jax and I saw a lot of both last year (though granted I saw more of Jacksonville).

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

MJD is a better runner, almost as good a receiver, and a better returner. Better at the goalline, better at scoring TD's overall. Just as explosive and elusive. MJD had a 74 yd run, a 51 yd Rec and a 93 yd return. Bush had an 18 yd run( ), a 74 yd rec and a 65 yd return.

The ONLY thing you can maybe say is Bush is a slightly better receiver, but then again, he had Brees checking down to him versus Garrard and Leftwich.

The numbers don't lie. If you want to use them to prove that Bush is the better receiver, then you must give MJD the edge in EVERY other category.

Sounds like an MJD fan here. Drew is good, but anyone wathcing the games would say Bush is better. Huge margin? No. But is there a difference? Clearly yes.

Stats don't tell a complete story. There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.

One thing is for sure... as far as value goes, MJD was a far better value last year. Who knows about this year yet, it's not written in the history books.

Both guys have one year in the NFL. In that season Drew averged almost 2 yards more per carry and slightly more per catch, scored more TDs and you say Bush is clearly the better? Come on. Bush is much better at making defenders miss completely, but Drew can make them miss or can run through arm tackles. Sure, Bush looked All-World on a few plays from last season but over the course of the season Drew was much more productive both fantasy and NFL wise. Breaking an arm tackle might not look as good on ESPN as faking a guy out of his shoes, but it works just as well or better. Does Bush have a higher ceiling? Perhaps, but I thought we were talking about who was better right now. This thread really drives home the lack of national exposure for the Jaguars because I can only assume that some people have the opinions they have from lack of exposure. Drew was a first down machine and a threat to break a long one everytime he touched the ball. He ran around, through, over and past defenders all season long. The guy was electric. Is Bush also electric? Without a doubt, but to say Bush was clearly better is a dumbfounding statement. What is clear is that Drew outperformed Bush in almost every possible way you'd want to measure a RBs production inspite of playing on a less than dynamic offensive team.

 

[Sleeper 43]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

 

[Jiggyonthehut]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Weren't Bush supporters insistent upon using 2nd half stats as a measure of potential? Give me a break.

 

[TheFanatic]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

So you are actually looking at hype as the reason to target someone in Fantasy Football? I remember all the hype about Ricky Williams. Ditka traded nearly his entire draft for him. Edge was the less well known guy that the Colts stunned everyone by taking him ahead of Ricky. Since we are talking long term, how did that turn out?I remember Ryan Leaf getting a lot of hype. Same with Joey Harrington. What about Charles Rogers. That guy had a lot of hype. What about Mike Williams. Broke all of Keyshaun's records at USC. I remember Ron Dayne getting a lot of hype. The Giants actually had a bronze life size Great Dane put outside the locker room before he even played a down. at someone thinking hype somehow equates to on the field success.....

 

[GDogg]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

I have both of them on my team (although I'll be throwing Drew back in hopes of getting him back), so I support them both.Thus far, it is clear that Maurice Drew is the better professional football player.

 

[Blackjacks]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgementPlain and simple. Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

So you are actually looking at hype as the reason to target someone in Fantasy Football? I remember all the hype about Ricky Williams. Ditka traded nearly his entire draft for him. Edge was the less well known guy that the Colts stunned everyone by taking him ahead of Ricky. Since we are talking long term, how did that turn out?I remember Ryan Leaf getting a lot of hype. Same with Joey Harrington. What about Charles Rogers. That guy had a lot of hype. What about Mike Williams. Broke all of Keyshaun's records at USC. I remember Ron Dayne getting a lot of hype. The Giants actually had a bronze life size Great Dane put outside the locker room before he even played a down. at someone thinking hype somehow equates to on the field success.....

I would say the difference with Bush and the guys you mention here are Bush wasn't a bust last year. He led his team to the playoffs and was an all around threat. I'm not talking about him and Drew here, done with that fight but Bush definetly wasn't a bust like the others. The guy had 1300 yards and 9 td's...not bad for a rookie year hype or no hype.

 

[switz]

MJD came into the NFL closer to his ceiling IMO. Bush still has tremendous room to grow.

Overall I see Bush having a better career.

 

[GDogg]

MJD came into the NFL closer to his ceiling IMO.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but this is based on what?Didn't Reggie Bush come from a college program that models itself closer to an NFL program than perhaps any other school in the country (USC)? Pete Carroll sells recruits on how well-prepared (ready) for the NFL they will be when they are declare for the draft (or their eligibility expires).Isn't it more probable that Bush came into the NFL at or closer to his ceiling than most other NFL rookies? Or, at the very least, more "NFL-ready" than his peers that went to other schools?

 

[Wadsworth]

MJD came into the NFL closer to his ceiling IMO. Bush still has tremendous room to grow.

I wouldn't disagree with this statement. As much as I am a fan of Drew, Bush does have amazing skills. In a strange way this debate is starting to remind me of the old Emmitt vs Barry debates. Just an FYI, Drew came into minicamp 10 pounds lighter than last year. He still has the huge legs, just a little more cut and might have lost some upper body. He is noticably quicker at the lower weigh.

 

[jurb26]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Weren't Bush supporters insistent upon using 2nd half stats as a measure of potential? Give me a break.

:X

 

[switz]

Understand being a huge Jags fan I am somewhat biased, but1. Given that one would be your feature back, which would you choose?Running-Advantage MJDBlocking- Advantage MJDRecieveing- Advantage BushGoaline running- Advantage MJDDuarability- Advantage MJD2. In their current situations for the 2007 year I have a feeling that from a FF standpoint GJones is going to have a much lareger impact on MJD than most anticpate. Nearly 70% of his Tds were 8 yards and in, he will not get those carries with a healthy GJones, Del Rio loves this guy and he will get the mass majority of short yardage and goal line carries. For these reasons I would take Bush before MJD as a FF owner.

1- Running - Between the tackles Drew / on the outside Bush2- Blocking - Ok sure ill give it to MJD3 Receiving - Bush 4- Goaline Running - up the gut MJD / on the outside or a pass on the goaline Bush (Ive seen Bush hop over a pile with the best of them too)5 -Durability - this is toss upForgot one6- Game-Breaking potential Bush7 - Versatility - Bush 8 -Quick Twitch - Bush (can stop on a dime and resume full speed faster than anyone Ive ever seen play)

I'm a Bush fan, and he's as exciting a they come, and I think he is overall the better player, but...#8 - it's a toss up. MJD has shown Barry-Sanders-esqu ability to stop on a dime and make a move just as much as Bush has.

 

[switz]

MJD came into the NFL closer to his ceiling IMO.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but this is based on what?Didn't Reggie Bush come from a college program that models itself closer to an NFL program than perhaps any other school in the country (USC)? Pete Carroll sells recruits on how well-prepared (ready) for the NFL they will be when they are declare for the draft (or their eligibility expires).Isn't it more probable that Bush came into the NFL at or closer to his ceiling than most other NFL rookies? Or, at the very least, more "NFL-ready" than his peers that went to other schools?

NFL-ready != at his ceiling.Bush showed last year a tremendous amount of growth over the season, showing he is still improving. At USC he wasn't used as a traditional NFL RB is in the NFL, so there is area for him to grow.Jones Drew last year played much the way he did in college. It's not like he showed ability he hadn't shown in college, or areas of growth. He is what he is... very very good, but it's not like he's going to transform into something even better.Bush is constantly improving. That shows he has a higher ceiling.

 

[shamrock84]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Very I'd venture to guess that nearly 90% of the MJD supporters are doing it for this reason. That way if they're right they're the smart ones and everyone else is stupid for going with the masses. Bush went ahead of MJD because he has more talent period. Therefore he should (not necessarily will) be the better player.

ETA... I'm a MJD dynasty owner and I'd trade him for Bush in a heartbeat.

 

[Sleeper 43]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Weren't Bush supporters insistent upon using 2nd half stats as a measure of potential? Give me a break.

Im not , I'm using the time that Drew and Bushed lived close to each in High School and competed for 6-7 years against each other running through college upto the NFL. Bush has always been the better total athlete. Bush created a new position and a new trend in the NFL for a hybrid RB/WR/Threat and you can call it all the hype you want too but there is a hell of alot of highlight film that continued on into the NFL this last season. Just becasue MJD 1 year , a rookie year, translates his game to the NFL faster means hes better? Theres players that take time to adjust in the NFL and become superior players over some who had a quick start (Michael Clayton offhand)

 

[NOONAN]

MJD is a better runner, almost as good a receiver, and a better returner. Better at the goalline, better at scoring TD's overall. Just as explosive and elusive. MJD had a 74 yd run, a 51 yd Rec and a 93 yd return. Bush had an 18 yd run( ), a 74 yd rec and a 65 yd return. The ONLY thing you can maybe say is Bush is a slightly better receiver, but then again, he had Brees checking down to him versus Garrard and Leftwich.The numbers don't lie. If you want to use them to prove that Bush is the better receiver, then you must give MJD the edge in EVERY other category.

Sounds like an MJD fan here. Drew is good, but anyone wathcing the games would say Bush is better. Huge margin? No. But is there a difference? Clearly yes.Stats don't tell a complete story. There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics.One thing is for sure... as far as value goes, MJD was a far better value last year. Who knows about this year yet, it's not written in the history books.

You must be a Bush fan. I watch every week(not just highlights) and I don't say that Bush is the better player and the stats back up my point. What is your point? MJD did not get the screen time Bush did but had many, many more explosive plays-a lot of them for TD's. You won't see ESPN show an MJD 4 yard run like it won the Superbowl.The stats compile relative to the production of the players, they are not arbitrary like highlights.BTW, if you dislike stats so much(or is it just when you defend Bush) why do you play fantasy football?

 

[NOONAN]

MJD came into the NFL closer to his ceiling IMO.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but this is based on what?Didn't Reggie Bush come from a college program that models itself closer to an NFL program than perhaps any other school in the country (USC)? Pete Carroll sells recruits on how well-prepared (ready) for the NFL they will be when they are declare for the draft (or their eligibility expires).Isn't it more probable that Bush came into the NFL at or closer to his ceiling than most other NFL rookies? Or, at the very least, more "NFL-ready" than his peers that went to other schools?

NFL-ready != at his ceiling.Bush showed last year a tremendous amount of growth over the season, showing he is still improving. At USC he wasn't used as a traditional NFL RB is in the NFL, so there is area for him to grow.Jones Drew last year played much the way he did in college. It's not like he showed ability he hadn't shown in college, or areas of growth. He is what he is... very very good, but it's not like he's going to transform into something even better.Bush is constantly improving. That shows he has a higher ceiling.

Awesome. 2nd half improvement = NFL greatness? OK. MJD had a better second half than first half also(and was still better than Bush's 2nd half). MJD is also improving, it is just that he did not SUCK in the first half of the year like Bush, not that he has a lower ceiling. Please.

 

[Giggity]

Where was all this "Bush isn't ready for the NFL, it's going to take some time to adjust" when people were going nuts over him last offseason. I never heard anyone say "MJD - that 5'7 RB, he's more ready for the NFL now then Bush, but give Bush some time".

I love that a 5'7 RB translates better to the NFL then Bush, but Bush has a higher ceiling. That's classic.

Bush can't run inside, because he needs time to adjust to the NFL.

It's hard to keep track of all the excuses for Bush's ups and downs.

Bush struggled at times.

MJD dominated.

Bush 0

MJD 1

It all boils down to the fact that Bush informs me about healthy subs, so I'm pretty much he'll be the better RB.

 

[TheFanatic]

Im not , I'm using the time that Drew and Bushed lived close to each in High School and competed for 6-7 years against each other running through college upto the NFL. Bush has always been the better total athlete. Bush created a new position and a new trend in the NFL for a hybrid RB/WR/Threat and you can call it all the hype you want too but there is a hell of alot of highlight film that continued on into the NFL this last season. Just becasue MJD 1 year , a rookie year, translates his game to the NFL faster means hes better? Theres players that take time to adjust in the NFL and become superior players over some who had a quick start (Michael Clayton offhand)

Uh, no he didn't. I believe Marshall Faulk created that trend in 1999 when he had 1,000 yards receiving on 87 receptions as well as 1,300+ yards rushing and a 5.5 YPC. He is the ultimate hybrid of RB/WR. Why? Because he was a RB first and foremost. The book is still out on Bush as to whether or not he is a RB first and foremost. Also, guys like LT, Tiki, Priest and LJ have done a pretty good job of being the dual threat as well. A dual threat RB/WR position or trend is not something that the almighty Bush created in 2006.

Seriously, have you been getting bids from sculpters to create a bronze bust of the guy already?

 

[Jiggyonthehut]

I think a lot of these arguments are, quite frankly, stupid and ignorant. People have to realize the question originally states "Who is better, MJD or Bush." Well the answer is clear- at this point, MJD has done more both as a receiver, a returner and as a rusher to warrant the claim that he is a more complete fantasy player and NFL player at this point in his career. That should not be disputed.

It seems people are using the qualitative characteristic of 'talent' to determine the issue instead of using what is given to us- the facts. Sure it is a small sample, but its all we have at this point from an NFL standpoint. So deal with it. As for the talent factor, sure I might be inclined to view Reggie Bush as the more versatile of the two backs simply because I don't think his role in the offense has been fully realized. But to say that the difference is a significant one does a great disservice to MJD- who has proved to us his versatility by outperforming Bush in every major statistical category.

I think the key to answering his long-term prospects lies in the offense. MJD, in my opinion has realized his role in the offense and his talents are simply tailored to suit that role. He has had an excellent rookie season, and with the subsequent aging of Fred Taylor, and his phasing from the offense, the opportunity for MJD to succeed becomes even more great. MJD has already shown a propensity to both run between and outside the tackles, hence ensuring that he will be the primary back for the foreseeable future and will command a disproportionate percentage of the carries. Also, he is the best reciever out of the Jags' backfield and best in 3rd down situations ; in short, he will be the back for every meaningful carry.

As for Bush, the same situation exists with the aging of Duce McAllister, ensuring a better opportunity for Bush to claim a significant portion of carries. However, Bush is primarily an outside runner and has NOT yet shown the ability to run between the tackles. Living in New Orleans myself, I have seen many saints games and have realized that when Deuce leaves the offense, he must be replaced by a gritty, inside runner as Reggie does not possess the skill set to run the ball between the tackles. It comes as no surprise that the NFL leaders in touches are dual-threat RB's who can pound the ball outside and between the tackles. Hence, Bush will have to compensate for a lack of opportunity and will not get that huge percentage that is afforded to MJD. While he certainly has the benefit of being in a better offense where defenders will be pinned back to compensate for the pass, he will have to make due for the lack of touches.

In this scenario, I favor MJD but can see the argument for both sides. But there should be no argument as to who is currently the better player.

 

[GDogg]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Weren't Bush supporters insistent upon using 2nd half stats as a measure of potential? Give me a break.

Im not , I'm using the time that Drew and Bushed lived close to each in High School and competed for 6-7 years against each other running through college upto the NFL. Bush has always been the better total athlete. Bush created a new position and a new trend in the NFL for a hybrid RB/WR/Threat and you can call it all the hype you want too but there is a hell of alot of highlight film that continued on into the NFL this last season. Just becasue MJD 1 year , a rookie year, translates his game to the NFL faster means hes better? Theres players that take time to adjust in the NFL and become superior players over some who had a quick start (Michael Clayton offhand)

This is crazy. Bush and Drew lived nowhere near each other. Maurice Drew lived in the Bay Area and went to De La Salle High School in Concord. Bush lived in San Diego and went to Helix High School. That's 490 miles away - or, roughly the equivalent of the distance between Chapel Hill, NC and New York, NY. You know, those two cities known for being close to each other.Those schools never played each other. Not once. The only times they competed against each other was in track & field at the California State Track & Field Championships. Neither of them ever won. They also went to some of the same combines.

Maurice Drew, not Reggie Bush, was rated as the #1 all-purpose RB in the nation coming out of High School by Rivals. They were both 4-star recruits. USC recruited and offered both of them. Bush chose SC, and Drew chose UCLA (because Eric Bieniemy was the RB coach at UCLA at the time).

Did you just make all this stuff up hoping that nobody knew either of their backgrounds?

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Bush supporters - brain washed by the mega media hype.

Jones-Drew supporters - realists that base opinions on facts and not judgement

Plain and simple.

Bush supporters are funny - can't see the forest through the trees. Reggie's 3.6 yard per average rush is just so dominating - get real. He'll make a highlight every 4th game, meanwhile Jones-Drew will be scoring TDs.

MJD supporters use information based on facts for 1 YEAR ?! hardly realistic.Bush supporters see someone who had a great year too and are thinking long-term.

Hey I understand its en vouge to go against the grain and pick the non-hyped guy to look like your original.

But eventually youll realize the hype is on Bush for a reason.

Weren't Bush supporters insistent upon using 2nd half stats as a measure of potential? Give me a break.

Im not , I'm using the time that Drew and Bushed lived close to each in High School and competed for 6-7 years against each other running through college upto the NFL. Bush has always been the better total athlete. Bush created a new position and a new trend in the NFL for a hybrid RB/WR/Threat and you can call it all the hype you want too but there is a hell of alot of highlight film that continued on into the NFL this last season. Just becasue MJD 1 year , a rookie year, translates his game to the NFL faster means hes better? Theres players that take time to adjust in the NFL and become superior players over some who had a quick start (Michael Clayton offhand)

This is crazy. Bush and Drew lived nowhere near each other. Maurice Drew lived in the Bay Area and went to De La Salle High School in Concord. Bush lived in San Diego and went to Helix High School. That's 490 miles away - or, roughly the equivalent of the distance between Chapel Hill, NC and New York, NY. You know, those two cities known for being close to each other.Those schools never played each other. Not once. The only times they competed against each other was in track & field at the California State Track & Field Championships. Neither of them ever won. They also went to some of the same combines.

Maurice Drew, not Reggie Bush, was rated as the #1 all-purpose RB in the nation coming out of High School by Rivals. They were both 4-star recruits. USC recruited and offered both of them. Bush chose SC, and Drew chose UCLA (because Eric Bieniemy was the RB coach at UCLA at the time).

Did you just make all this stuff up hoping that nobody knew either of their backgrounds?