Who's the 2016 NFL MVP right now? (1 Viewer)

[Hawkeye21]

When defenses game plan for Atlanta what player are they most concerned with?

When defenses game plan for GB what player are they most concerned with?

Go!

I see the point you're making but that's really not part of the criteria for the MVP award.  You could go back through the history of the NFL and change multiple MVPs using your logic.

 

[Anarchy99]

When defenses game plan for Atlanta what player are they most concerned with?

When defenses game plan for GB what player are they most concerned with?

Go!

Julio Jones.
Jordy Nelson.

 

[Milkman]

I see the point you're making but that's really not part of the criteria for the MVP award.  You could go back through the history of the NFL and change multiple MVPs using your logic.

Thank you. Is Ryan even Atlanta's MVP if he's not who defenses are most worried about?

 

[Milkman]

Julio Jones.
Jordy Nelson.

Yeah you don't even believe that but nice try.

 

[Anarchy99]

Yeah you don't even believe that but nice try.

I 100% believe that.

 

[Milkman]

Next if you subtract Rodgers rushing yards from the teams they averaged 81.44 ypg which puts them at 29th in the league. Atlanta averaged 120.5 which was good for 5th in the league. It was never all on Ryan like it was for Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers still put up more yards by himself than Ryan did and accounted for my TD's.

 

[Milkman]

I 100% believe that.

Well you lost a lot of credibility and you're wrong. Haha

 

[Milkman]

Air yards + rushing yards + total TDs + total turnovers 

Aaron Rodgers - 2757-44-9

AIR yards per completion 5.95

Matt Ryan - 2684-38-7

Air yards per completion 6.88

Puts a dent in those arguing Matt Ryan had more yards.......

Now follow with me boys.

Atlanta 6653 total yards. Matt Ryan accounted for 2684 of them or 40.4% them.

GB 5900 total yards. Rodgers personally accounted for 2757 or 46.7% of them.

Atlanta scored 540 points. Ryan was personally responsible for 228 of them or 42.2% of his teams TD's.

GB scored 432 points. Rodgers was personally responsible for 264 of them or 61.1% of his teams TD's.

This all happened with every team focusing their attention on Rodgers. Never mind what Anarchy says because Rodgers just  chewed up the Giants D without Jordy yesterday.

How is Ryan more valuable then Aaron Rodgers again?

Mic drop.

 

[Anarchy99]

Well you lost a lot of credibility and you're wrong. Haha

Good teams scheme against receivers or RBs. Not QBs. But I get spoiled because that's what NE does.

Take away Jones and Nelson and you are well on your way to winning. The last 8 regular season games Nelson was held under 40 yards (over the past 5 seasons Nelson played), GB went 3-5.

Oddly enough, when Julio is held to 40 yards or less, ATL is 9-2. That must mean Ryan is working it and is way better than we give him credit for.

 

[Milkman]

Good teams scheme against receivers or RBs. Not QBs. But I get spoiled because that's what NE does.

Take away Jones and Nelson and you are well on your way to winning. The last 8 regular season games Nelson was held under 40 yards (over the past 5 seasons Nelson played), GB went 3-5.

Oddly enough, when Julio is held to 40 yards or less, ATL is 9-2. That must mean Ryan is working it and is way better than we give him credit for.

Jordy didn't even play 3 quarters yesterday and Rodgers chewed up the Giants D. Please stop. It starts and stops with Aaron Rodgers.

 

[Anarchy99]

Now follow with me boys.

Atlanta 6653 total yards. Matt Ryan accounted for 2684 of them or 40.4% them.

GB 5900 total yards. Rodgers personally accounted for 2757 or 46.7% of them.

Atlanta scored 540 points. Ryan was personally responsible for 228 of them or 42.2% of his teams TD's.

GB scored 432 points. Rodgers was personally responsible for 264 of them or 61.1% of his teams TD's.

How is Ryan more valuable then Aaron Rodgers again?

Mic drop.

Cause ATL scored 108 points more than GB did. The point is to win games (advantage Ryan) and score more points (advantage Ryan). ANything else is just noise. Unless you think Bill Belichick is full of manure. Forgive me if I side with the 4 time SB winning coach instead of teh Milkman.

 

[Milkman]

Cause ATL scored 108 points more than GB did. The point is to win games (advantage Ryan) and score more points (advantage Ryan). ANything else is just noise. Unless you think Bill Belichick is full of manure. Forgive me if I side with the 4 time SB winning coach instead of teh Milkman.

To put it in perspective for Ryan to be as valuable as Rodgers was this year to his team he would have had to throw/run for 55 TD's and have nearly 500 more air yards. 

It's not really close. 

 

[Anarchy99]

To put it in perspective for Ryan to be as valuable as Rodgers was this year to his team he would have had to throw/run for 55 TD's. 

It's not even really close. 

You are using % of offense, which rewards players from teams with lower scoring and yardage totals. An NFL team would always take way more points and yardage,

 

[Milkman]

You are using % of offense, which rewards players from teams with lower scoring and yardage totals. An NFL team would always take way more points and yardage,

Yeah Rodgers put up equal/better stats in a worse offense. He's a bigger cog in his team's offense than Ryan. He's more valuable. The better offense Atlanta had was all rushing offense too. It had nothing to do with Rodgers. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It's not impossible but unlikely.  Many of the rankings I just looked at have either Ryan or Brady as the top player followed by Rodgers and then closely by Elliott.  It seems many really knocked Rodgers for his first half of the season.

Why is anyone still arguing about who WILL win it?  This is a debate about who SHOULD win it.

 

[Milkman]

Why is anyone still arguing about who WILL win it?  This is a debate about who SHOULD win it.

Right I've conceded that. 

 

[FUBAR]

If nothing else this thread is fun for the ways stats can be used to make your case. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

He actually makes a good argument for what you keep trying to prove.  Just because you would take a guy as the first pick in a draft does not mean he should be the MVP.  There are plenty of players over the years who have been the MVP yet you wouldn't take them as the first pick in a new draft.

The MVP is only suppose to be about who had the best season.  It's not about how great their career has been or who I would want more on my team next season.

Offensive Player of the Year should be who has the best season in terms of offensive stats.

MVP is pretty straightforward.  Read the words "Most Valuable Player" out loud to yourself 3 times and ask yourself what those words mean.  It's a team sport.  Which player was most valuable to their team?  It might not be the guy with the best offensive stats for the year.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

You are using % of offense, which rewards players from teams with lower scoring and yardage totals. An NFL team would always take way more points and yardage,

You can't possible be so obtuse....as to fail to get his point.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Cause ATL scored 108 points more than GB did. The point is to win games (advantage Ryan) and score more points (advantage Ryan). ANything else is just noise. Unless you think Bill Belichick is full of manure. Forgive me if I side with the 4 time SB winning coach instead of teh Milkman.

Ryan has teammates.  He doesn't operate in a vacuum.  You know this, you just don't like the implications for your argument.

 

[Anarchy99]

Offensive Player of the Year should be who has the best season in terms of offensive stats.

MVP is pretty straightforward.  Read the words "Most Valuable Player" out loud to yourself 3 times and ask yourself what those words mean.  It's a team sport.  Which player was most valuable to their team?  It might not be the guy with the best offensive stats for the year.

Tell that to the voters who have voted OPOY on the team with the best record since the inception of the MVP.

Again, using the Belichick model, first goal of a coach . . . winning. Second goal as a coach . . . scoring. The voters identify with that and that's how they vote.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Matt Ryan

This is ridiculous.  The draft angle is irrelevant, but this is a ridiculous answer from someone who refuses to concede something obvious.

 

[Milkman]

I'm in the car so I might have read it wrong but Atlanta scored over 70 more rushing points on offense than GB. 

A. That has nothing to do with Matt Ryan.

B. That makes Aaron Rodgers job infinity harder than Matt Ryan's. 

C. So without a running game Matt Ryan would have to be personally responsible for 55TDs to equal what Rodgers did this year. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Tell that to the voters who have voted OPOY on the team with the best record since the inception of the MVP.

Again, using the Belichick model, first goal of a coach . . . winning. Second goal as a coach . . . scoring. The voters identify with that and that's how they vote.

I'm not here to predict who the voters will choose.  I'm here to listen to views on who deserves the ####### award called Most Valuable Player.

 

[Anarchy99]

Ryan has teammates.  He doesn't operate in a vacuum.  You know this, you just don't like the implications for your argument.

PLAYER X plays on a team with a 3-13 record that has very little offense and doesn't score a lot of points. But PLAYER X accounts for most of the offense by passing and some of it by running. BUT he accounts for most of the team's scoring. If the team only scored 20 TDs but PLAYER X through for 16 of them and ran for 2 more, using the % of offense metric makes this guy a god. 

But apparently he would be the most valuable player in the league because he accounted for 90% of his teams TDs and a huge majority of their yardage. Is that really worthy of discussion as league MVP?

 

[Milkman]

PLAYER X plays on a team with a 3-13 record that has very little offense and doesn't score a lot of points. But PLAYER X accounts for most of the offense by passing and some of it by running. BUT he accounts for most of the team's scoring. If the team only scored 20 TDs but PLAYER X through for 16 of them and ran for 2 more, using the % of offense metric makes this guy a god. 

But apparently he would be the most valuable player in the league because he accounted for 90% of his teams TDs and a huge majority of their yardage. Is that really worthy of discussion as league MVP?

You're taking it to extremes that we aren't at though. Aaron Rodgers accounted for 20% more of his team's TD'S. That's a huge difference in value. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I'm in the car so I might have read it wrong but Atlanta scored over 70 more rushing points on offense than GB. 

A. That has nothing to do with Matt Ryan.

B. That makes Aaron Rodgers job infinity harder than Matt Ryan's. 

C. So without a running game Matt Ryan would have to be personally responsible for 55TDs to equal what Rodgers did this year. 

I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. A quarterback's job is to lead his team to score points. Whether it be by someone else scoring the TDs or someone else running it into the end zone. That is 100%, irrefutable FACT. No head coach or coordinator in the league gives a rat's a$$ how his team scores points. To hold TD's scored by running backs AGAINST a QB is just plain wrong. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

PLAYER X plays on a team with a 3-13 record that has very little offense and doesn't score a lot of points. But PLAYER X accounts for most of the offense by passing and some of it by running. BUT he accounts for most of the team's scoring. If the team only scored 20 TDs but PLAYER X through for 16 of them and ran for 2 more, using the % of offense metric makes this guy a god. 

But apparently he would be the most valuable player in the league because he accounted for 90% of his teams TDs and a huge majority of their yardage. Is that really worthy of discussion as league MVP?

Please point out a real life example of that ever happening.  I would find it interesting.

Wait, what about when OJ set the single season rushing record?  IMO he deserved the MVP that year.

 

[Anarchy99]

You're taking it to extremes that we aren't at though. Aaron Rodgers accounted for 20% more of his team's TD'S. That's a huge difference in value. 

The team that scored more TD's had a QB that is more valuable. Period. No NFL coach would ever care who scored or how and would do back flips if his offense scored over 100 points more than another team on the season.

 

[Anarchy99]

Please point out a real life example of that ever happening.  I would find it interesting.

Wait, what about when OJ set the single season rushing record?  IMO he deserved the MVP that year.

OJ was MVP that year. IIRC, that was the last time a player was MVP from a team that missed the playoffs. To put things into perspective, OJ had over 2000 rushing yards. The Bills as a team had 1236 passing yards on the season. Clearly the game has changed since then.

 

[Milkman]

I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. A quarterback's job is to lead his team to score points. Whether it be by someone else scoring the TDs or someone else running it into the end zone. That is 100%, irrefutable FACT. No head coach or coordinator in the league gives a rat's a$$ how his team scores points. To hold TD's scored by running backs AGAINST a QB is just plain wrong. 

Rodgers is riding a Donkey with one ####### leg, Ryan is riding a stallion, they are racing and Ryan is in the lead at the halfway point. The Donkey Rodgers was riding loses his last leg and Rodgers carries the Donkey the rest of the way making up all the ground and tying Ryan in the race at the end. Who had more value in the race? Ryan or Rodgers. 

 

[Milkman]

The team that scored more TD's had a QB that is more valuable. Period. No NFL coach would ever care who scored or how and would do back flips if his offense scored over 100 points more than another team on the season.

Nice dodge bro. I'll take that as a concession. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

OJ was MVP that year. IIRC, that was the last time a player was MVP from a team that missed the playoffs. To put things into perspective, OJ had over 2000 rushing yards. The Bills as a team had 1236 passing yards on the season. Clearly the game has changed since then.

Well, it is pretty similar to the scenario you were just mocking.

IMO that is a clear case of OJ deserved the MVP - because voters actually understood what the term MVP meant.  As opposed to now, where they idiotically confuse it with Offensive Player of the Year.

 

[Anarchy99]

Rodgers is riding a Donkey with one ####### leg, Ryan is riding a stallion, they are racing and Ryan is in the lead at the halfway point. The Donkey Rodgers was riding loses his last leg and Rodgers carries the Donkey the rest of the way making up all the ground and tying Ryan in the race at the end. Who had more value in the race? Ryan or Rodgers. 

What does this have to do with football? As far as football goes, Rodgers didn't tie Ryan.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The team that scored more TD's had a QB that is more valuable. Period. No NFL coach would ever care who scored or how and would do back flips if his offense scored over 100 points more than another team on the season.

That makes no sense at all.  

 

[Bayhawks]

Nope it just shows GB leaned on Aaron Rodgers more than Atlanta leaned on Matt Ryan. If Atlanta had put it all on Ryan in the same position Rodgers was put in this year he'd crumble. That's not really a knock on Ryan he's just not on that elite level. 

Heck if Rodgers had Julio Jones on his team he'd have thrown 50 TD's. 

Except Ryan had more air yards that Rodgers So, it actually shows the opposite of what you claim.

Yeah, that makes sense.  Seeing how Jordy Nelson had 14 TDs this year, and 63 in his 8 years in the NFL, while Jones had 6 this year, and 40 in his 6 years in the NFL, logic would dictate that taking a high volume TD scoring WR and replacing him with a low-volume TD scoring WR would lead to more TDs .

You're really not good at debating, are you?

 

[maf005]

It's reasonable to say that a rushing attack helps the quarterback. Would the inverse, that strong qb play helps the rbs in terms of efficiency and total yards, also be true?

How much credit does Ryan get for his team's rushing success? How much blame does Rodgers get for his?

Or we could agree that their respective offensives, while both containing NFL players, are completely different. And as such, one qb may be expected to be involved in a higher percentage of the plays and scoring BY DESIGN. 

 

[Anarchy99]

That makes no sense at all.  

Sure it does. You are a head coach. Would you rather score 27 ppg and 51 TDs with 5900 yards of offense or 34 ppg and 58 TDs with 6650 yards of offense?

 

[Milkman]

Except Ryan had more air yards that Rodgers So, it actually shows the opposite of what you claim.

Yeah, that makes sense.  Seeing how Jordy Nelson had 14 TDs this year, and 63 in his 8 years in the NFL, while Jones had 6 this year, and 40 in his 6 years in the NFL, logic would dictate that taking a high volume TD scoring WR and replacing him with a low-volume TD scoring WR would lead to more TDs .

You're really not good at debating, are you?

Lol yeah but you subtracted the rushing yards conveniently. He personally accounted for more yards than Ryan and more TD'S. He also account for a higher percentage of yards and TD'S. 

 

[Milkman]

Sure it does. You are a head coach. Would you rather score 27 ppg and 51 TDs or 34 ppg and 58 TDs?

What does that have to do with value? If the QB has less to do with it he has less value. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Sure it does. You are a head coach. Would you rather score 27 ppg and 51 TDs with 5900 yards of offense or 34 ppg and 58 TDs with 6650 yards of offense?

I'd rather have the best player possible at every position, and I'm smart enough to know that no player in a team sport plays in a vacuum.

 

[Milkman]

So if a QB throws for 5 TD'S and 500 yards all year but the offense scores 100 TD'S with 50 different RBS and the team goes 14-2 that QB should be MVP over Aaron Rodgers and the year he just had?

Lol Anarchy!

 

[Anarchy99]

What does that have to do with value?

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!!

More yardage = more points = more wins = more titles = more value.

Being lost in all this is that all the things that are being cited as negatives actually turn out to be positives for Rodgers. Having (allegedly) no running game and no defense only serves to have Rodgers airing the ball out for 60 minutes while the other QBs potentially up by plenty were in no rush to snap the ball and basically handed the ball off down the stretch.

 

[Anarchy99]

So if a QB throws for 5 TD'S and 500 yards all year but the offense scores 100 TD'S with 50 different RBS and the team goes 14-2 that QB should be MVP over Aaron Rodgers and the year he just had?

Lol Anarchy!

Yes, because we all know NFL teams carry 50 RB's. Clearly if a team got 95 TD's from running backs, the lead dog RB would win MVP.  Ask guys like Tomlinson or Alexander about that. And yes, if LT scored 31 TD's this year, he would have smoked Rodgers in MVP balloting.

 

[Milkman]

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!!

More yardage = more points = more wins = more titles = more value.

Being lost in all this is that all the things that are being cited as negatives actually turn out to be positives for Rodgers. Having (allegedly) no running game and no defense only serves to have Rodgers airing the ball out for 60 minutes while the other QBs potentially up by plenty were in no rush to snap the ball and basically handed the ball off down the stretch.

Except having a running game changes how teams are forced to defend you. 

 

[Milkman]

Yes, because we all know NFL teams carry 50 RB's. Clearly if a team got 95 TD's from running backs, the lead dog RB would win MVP.  Ask guys like Tomlinson or Alexander about that. And yes, if LT scored 31 TD's this year, he would have smoked Rodgers in MVP balloting.

No no no. They have 49 injuries to RBs. In that scenario under your criteria the QB should be the MVP. Team with most wins and they scored the most points. Got to give it to him bro! Lol

 

[Anarchy99]

Paul and Frank are both in sales for the same company. Paul works at a branch that does $100 million in annual sales and generated $30 million of it. Frank works at a branch that does $10 million in annual sales and generated $5 million of it. Who was more valuable? Who did more for the company?

 

[Bayhawks]

This is ridiculous.  The draft angle is irrelevant, but this is a ridiculous answer from someone who refuses to concede something obvious.

Dude, read his ridiculously narrow set of criteria by which one would make this hypothetical redraft (but he swears its not based on FF numbers; seriously-in what other context than fantasy is the term redraft used?).  He said based on nothing other than the film and stats from this year, which QB would be drafted first.  Ryan had the 3rd highest YPA in the NFL over the last 50 years, and the 5th highest  QB rating in NFL history. 

Milkman said ignore everything else but this season.  Based on that, we have to ignore everything we know about Rodgers and Ryan over their career.  We have to ignore Rodgers' sustained excellence & Ryan's up-and-down career.  Based on nothing but this season, Ryan would be picked ahead of Rodgers (not to mention, he's younger, as well).

 

[Milkman]

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!!

More yardage = more points = more wins = more titles = more value.

Being lost in all this is that all the things that are being cited as negatives actually turn out to be positives for Rodgers. Having (allegedly) no running game and no defense only serves to have Rodgers airing the ball out for 60 minutes while the other QBs potentially up by plenty were in no rush to snap the ball and basically handed the ball off down the stretch.

They won one more game. Rodgers was a more significant part of his team's offense by a lot and put up basically the same numbers on a significantly worse one dimensional offense. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Paul and Frank are both in sales for the same company. Paul works at a branch that does $100 million in annual sales and generated $30 million of it. Frank works at a branch that does $10 million in annual sales and generated $5 million of it. Who was more valuable? Who did more for the company?

Why do you keep ignoring that the players on the field.....have their performance impacted by the quality of their teammates?  Sales roles are a horrible analogy for team sports.