BoulderBob
Footballguy
Is Al Davis that bad? I'm hearing John Shoop is in line to be the next HC. John Shoop! Yes, Bear fans, that John Shoop...
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Why do NFL coaches avoid Oakland? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BoulderBob
- Start date
thatguy
Footballguy
Are you serious? He fired Mike Shanahan after four games in only his second season as Oakland's head coach, and he never paid him the rest of the money that he was contractually obligated to pay him. Also, I think he makes a lot of idiotic moves regarding player personell, which makes it difficult to consistently put a winning product on the field.I'd say yes, he's that bad, but what do I know.
SSOG
Moderator
I don't know. You can't argue with Al Davis's results. Aren't the Raiders the winningest franchise in NFL history? I know the Raiders and the Dolphins are #1 and #2 in some order or another.That said, it's a two-way street. Established coaches don't want to work for the Raiders, because Al Davis is a HUGE control freak. Everything has to be done HIS WAY, or else. I'm sure it's a huge headache, and no ESTABLISHED coach is going to want someone constantly undermining his authority.
On the other hand, Al Davis avoids established coaches precisely BECAUSE he likes to be so hands-on. An established coach, or even a hot coaching candidate who stands a good chance of getting a BETTER job, wouldn't put up with all of the crap that Davis requires his coaches put up with. And Davis doesn't want someone who is going to stand up and undermine HIS authority.
The result is that Davis tends to go off the beaten path and pick coaches with no prior experience, guys who aren't "hot candidates" (like Gary Kubiak, Lovie Smith, Romeo Crennel, or Ron Rivera all have been). Basically, guys who NEED the Oakland job, because it's their only chance at a head coaching gig in the near future. And in Davis's defense, he's got a VERY good track record with identifying young talent. He always grabs young coaches before they become hot names, and he's wound up with John Madden, Mike Shanahan, John Gruden... very high-quality guys. Even Art Shell. I've always thought that Shell was a heck of a coach. Again, there's always some question as to whether they're successful because they have Davis holding their hands (remember, he's a former coach, too), or whether they're genuinely great coaches... but I think the success that Shanny and Gruden have enjoyed shows that they're genuinely good coaches.
This is how it will be for as long as Davis runs such a hands-on business. I think coaches view Oakland as the LEAST DESIREABLE destination in the entire NFL, and wouldn't go there if they had absolutely any other choices.
Again, as much as I dislike Oakland, you can't argue with the track record. I thought that Turner was a very uncharacteristic hire for Al Davis. Maybe now that Davis is back to picking Traditional Oakland Raider candidates, maybe they'll get back to playing Traditional Oakland Raider football- you know, leading the league in penalties, signing a bunch of aging and questionable guys, trying to establish a vertical passing game... pretty much everything they've been doing the last few years, except with some occasional winning thrown in for good measure.
Edit: Sometimes I don't get why Davis doesn't just hire HIMSELF to be the head coach and GM, and then surround himself with a top-notch staff. It would make a lot more sense than the way he does it now. Plus it'd only be fitting for the team that is regularly the oldest in the NFL to have the oldest coach, too, rather than the youngest like is usually the case.
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Cookiemonster
Footballguy
I've gotten the feeling since before Gruden even, that Al is becoming more of a business tycoon than a football enthusiast. The aging, high-priced vets are for crowd draw. He wants butts in the seats. The young, unhearalded coaches are CHEAP! That's why Gruden got ousted. Chucky wanted to be paid more than the 'Skins special teams coach. Besides that, Gruden also became more loved and respected by fans and players than Davis himself. A sure-fire ticket out of town is to outgrow Davis' stranglehold. Davis does understand winning, and the product of winning is more $. But really, what the Raiders are losing in ticket sales is less than what the 'Skins are paying their coaching staff this year. The next coach should be an improvement over Turner, but it would have been a garauntee w/ Saunders. Saunders didn't want the job though, 'cause of restrictions on his freedom to coach, and 'cause the 'Skins will pay a OC more than Davis will pay a HC.
slayer666
Footballguy
Master of Puppets. Al Davis is the head coach of the Raiders. He doesn't feel it's necessary to compensate his "assistant" coach with head coach wages. He is looking for a dull/boring "yes" man with no personality. Al Davis has trouble attracting quality candidates because most coaches with half a brain realize the shelf life in Oaktown is limited.
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Jason Wood
Zoo York
He won't pay fair market value [and that disparity is ever-increasing as coaches and assistants pay skyrockets], he doesn't want or accept input from his head coach when it comes to personnel, he believes games should be won one way only [i.e., the way games were won by the silver and black in their heyday], the infrastructure at the stadium is old, and there's too much history of his treating head coaches badly to make it a top-tier job. Davis let Gruden walk despite being the youngest coach in the league and putting Oakland back on the map. He fired Shanahan 4 games into a season. He parted ways with Art Shell despite a very solid record all things considered.Al Davis = A Nightmare
Cookiemonster
Footballguy
No surprise, just another broken Oakland heart.
T
trader jake
Guest
- bad pay (nfl head coach wise)- limited authority and controlthose are two HUGE hurdles. especially for top coaches...who rightfully demand more in both areas than they'll ever receive in oakland with al davis around
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
The Mercury News reports with the NFL openings vanishing, Oakland can be even more deliberate if it wishes in choosing a successor to HC Norv Turner. The Raiders can wait for playoff teams to be eliminated and make a run at an assistant — with Pittsburgh OC Ken Whisenhunt a potential target. Oakland can take a look at some of the former head coaches on the market such as Ravens OC Jim Fassel, ex-Saints HC Jim Haslett, ex-Rams HC Mike Martz or ex-49ers and Lions HC Steve Mariucci. Former Packers HC Mike Sherman, should he not get the Bills job, might be appealing. There has been no contact yet reported between the Raiders and Rick Neuheisel, the Ravens quarterbacks coach who has been a guest of owner Al Davis at Oakland training camp. Although Davis said when Turner was fired it was unlikely he would hire someone off the Raiders staff, one source said he may give a serious look to quarterbacks coach John Shoop.
Hardy flippin har har....
Shoop has been a failure everywhere he's been in the past few years. ALL the offenses have regressed, and the QBs didn't fair much better:
2005: Oakland
2004: Tampa
2003: Chicago
But Al has a habit of thinking outside the box and hiring Head Coaches on the cheap - so he can CONTROL the team in his white vinyl pants.
Hardy flippin har har....
Shoop has been a failure everywhere he's been in the past few years. ALL the offenses have regressed, and the QBs didn't fair much better:
2005: Oakland
2004: Tampa
2003: Chicago
But Al has a habit of thinking outside the box and hiring Head Coaches on the cheap - so he can CONTROL the team in his white vinyl pants.
harrison74
Footballguy
The Raiders have some great offensive talent, but Moss didnt help the team one bit, and the defensive personnel is just below average anyway you cut it.
massraider
Footballguy
A lot of people here have some inside info it seems.Tell you what I've "heard":That Saunders wasn't offered the gig. He also wasn't offered any other job. And a lot of less-qualified people were offered and took HC jobs, so there might be something a bit wrong here.Last season Sean Payton dikked around, and left them groping, and stuck with Norv. That was a bummer, and really hamstrung the Raiders. He's also the only candidate I know of that pulled this with the Raiders. And I'm not sure that was the right thing to do in the long run. Al might be more involved than some would like, Payton has now joined the nightmare that is the Saints. There are a lot of good coaches still coaching (it IS the playoffs), and a lot of jobs that have been filled by some guys I am not impressed with. Who, exactly, did the Raiders miss out on? McCarthy? Please.If anyone has anything to back this notion up, please post a link. Because I know of no coach this season that was offered the job, and turned it down. And there must be proof of this somewhere, as it has to be the premise the original question was based on.
Autumn Wind
Footballguy
Head coaches in Oakland know that if they have a problem with a player, that player can just go above the coach and plead his case to Al. Totally cuts the coach off at the knees.
redman
Footballguy
Summary of Commitment to Excellence, by decade:1960'sRecord: 77-58-2Win %: .569Playoff Games: 61970'sRecord: 100-38-6Win %: .715Playoff Games: 141980'sRecord: 89-63-0Win %: .586Playoff Games: 111990'sRecord: 82-78-0Win %: .513Playoff Games: 52000'sRecord: 46-50-0Win %: .479Playoff Games: 7There's an undeniable pattern here. That pattern, plus the fact that Al Davis has clearly for the last two-plus decades tried to hire patsies who kowtow to him (Shanahan and Gruden being the two exceptions that reinforce the rule) doesn't add up to a lot of enthusiasm from blue chip candidates out there.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I read that since the Oak/Tampa Super Bowl, Oakland has the worst record in the NFL.
Al Davis has actually had good results in the past, but he strayed from his normal coach archetype this last time. Davis has had good results with younger geniuses that are on the upswing.Part of the reason that Oakland is not a sweet gig for an established coach is that they don't have as much control in Oakland as they would elsewhere.But, if you look around the NFL, you will see many coaches that got their first big break with Oakland. I'm talking about position coaches and Coordinators. Many head office types also got their first boost up the ranks with Oakland.The bottom-line answer as to why coaches avoid Oakland is control. Al Davis has it and established coaches can get more of it elsewhere. Sadly, Davis doesn't have the ability to be a full-time hands-on control freak owner any longer. Or it at least appears that his ability has diminished.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I have been an Oakland fan for 25 years. Certainly, Oakland *was* a great franchise. But that greatness has turned to garbage since Oakland’s last Super Bowl win. Aside from Gruden’s reign and a couple of good years with Jeff Hostetler as QB, Oakland has been as bad as any team in the NFL. So even if Al Davis was easy to work for, Oakland simply is not the prestigious team it once was. Most, if not all, of Oakland’s problems can be blamed directly on Davis, and the team will likely suffer until Davis hands over control of the team - which is quite unlikely. Look back at the recent highlights of Davis’ mishandling of the Raiders
efense- Since Davis picks every player in every draft, he gets the blame. In the last 10 years, how many defensive stars has Davis drafted? Woodson? Good player, but a questionable work ethic. Phillip Buchanon? Another malcontent who is not even on the team anymore. This defense is lacking in talent at almost every position. Davis’ solution for the defense is to sign an aging star every year (Sapp, etc.) But if you look at all the defensive stars in the league right now, many of them are young and playing for the teams that drafted them. Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed, Chris McAllister, Troy Polamalu, Lofa Tatupu...Oakland rarely drafts defensive players with that kind of talent. Davis is sketchy drafting offensive players, and lately he’s just embarrassing drafting defensive stars.which leads me to...- The DraftAl Davis doesn’t just draft bad, he drafts dumb. I contend that Sebastian Janikowski remains one of the worst first round picks of the last 10 years. And Davis is known for drafting raw talent over solid, disciplined players. So why does New England play so well with third stringers while Oakland sucks with first stringers? Because the Pats draft solid players that play within the structure of the team concept.Gruden- I won’t rehash the entire Gruden fiasco, but Al Davis simply robbed Raider fans of a Super Bowl. Had Davis set aside his ego and paid Gruden a good salary, Oakland would have had a great chance to win the Super Bowl that year.
efense- Since Davis picks every player in every draft, he gets the blame. In the last 10 years, how many defensive stars has Davis drafted? Woodson? Good player, but a questionable work ethic. Phillip Buchanon? Another malcontent who is not even on the team anymore. This defense is lacking in talent at almost every position. Davis’ solution for the defense is to sign an aging star every year (Sapp, etc.) But if you look at all the defensive stars in the league right now, many of them are young and playing for the teams that drafted them. Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed, Chris McAllister, Troy Polamalu, Lofa Tatupu...Oakland rarely drafts defensive players with that kind of talent. Davis is sketchy drafting offensive players, and lately he’s just embarrassing drafting defensive stars.which leads me to...- The DraftAl Davis doesn’t just draft bad, he drafts dumb. I contend that Sebastian Janikowski remains one of the worst first round picks of the last 10 years. And Davis is known for drafting raw talent over solid, disciplined players. So why does New England play so well with third stringers while Oakland sucks with first stringers? Because the Pats draft solid players that play within the structure of the team concept.Gruden- I won’t rehash the entire Gruden fiasco, but Al Davis simply robbed Raider fans of a Super Bowl. Had Davis set aside his ego and paid Gruden a good salary, Oakland would have had a great chance to win the Super Bowl that year.
redman
Footballguy
The last young, genius coach that Davis hired and didn't later undercut was John Madden. He's had two other bona fide young genius coaches in later years - Shanhan and Gruden - and in each case he's been the primary reason why those guys went elsewhere. Everyone else since Madden has been his puppet or at least so weak as to never be a threat to his ego/stature as leader of the franchise. Look at the list:
Flores
Shell
White
Bugel
Callahan
Turner
The best you can say about any of them is that Tom Flores won 2 Super Bowls, but that was with a veteran team that someone else built. But Davis never feared Flores because Flores was always a good, loyal soldier. As a group, these guys are/were stiffs as head coaches.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
To take that notion a step further, look at the talented coaching assistants that have coached for Oakland, such as John Fox and Jim Fasell. You'd like to think that Davis was watching these guys to see if they'd make good head coaches, but apparantly he wasn't paying attention. I seem to recall that Fox was very unhappy with Oakland when he left the team. Hmmmm...wonder why?
Flores and Shell were team players and good coaches. They were also good choices as coaches since they were able to let Davis steal the thunder. The best you can say about Flores is that he won, which raises a question in my mind as to what else you need? I think two Superbowls over a three year period and continued success indicates that he knew what he was doing.Regarding Davis's success at the draft lately, I have to agree. Other than some later picks that have worked out, success has been spotty. Janikowski was a reach in the first, given his criminal problems. Not only that, but Davis passed on Shaun Alexander! As a fan, I was thrilled to see Alexander available, especially since I figured that Janikowski could be had in the second round. What do the Raiders do? Draft Jank in the first.
Conversation overheard in Raiders training camp 06:"Randy, do you know how to take one step, turn around, and catch the ball? Cuz i got a great play in mind...""Sure Coach Schoop, what happens then?""Well, you get tackled. But the beauty of it is the defensive end gets so tired jogging to the sideline when the punt team comes on he's worn out the rest of the game! Its foolproof!""Man I wish i was drivin my hummer right now."
