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Why do so many embrace the "other" QB prospect? (1 Viewer)

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so" or think they're actually smarter than NFL GMs? :confused:

Every year, particularly around here, we get tons of people (if not the majority) who love the OTHER QB. Sometimes it works out (Big Ben), most of the time it doesn't.

2006 -- Jay Cutler over Matt Leinart and Vince Young
2005 -- Charlie Frye over Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
2003 -- Kyle Boller over Carson Palmer and Byron Leftwich
2002 -- Patrick Ramsey over David Carr and Joey Harrington
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
2000 -- Chris Redman over Chad Pennington (don't remember people pimping Carmazzi) :confused: :shrug: :confused:

 

Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
Its hard to stand out when you agree with the herd? I dont think this applies to our friend Chaos Commish. His love for Cutler is genuine, not at all a ploy.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Its hard to stand out when you agree with the herd? I dont think this applies to our friend Chaos Commish. His love for Cutler is genuine, not at all a ploy.
Oh, I don't doubt Chaos...I've applauded him on his consistent support for Cutler. But he's not alone, on the boards or out in the NFL punditry.
 

diesel7982

Footballguy
Its hard to stand out when you agree with the herd? I dont think this applies to our friend Chaos Commish. His love for Cutler is genuine, not at all a ploy.
Im not as fanatical as CC, but Im a huge Cutler fan also. Id definitely put him at the top of the class. I saw almost all of his games last year, and know quite a few people who know him personally, and feel quite assured he has both the ability and the attitude to succeed at the NFL level.

 

jurb26

Footballguy
Because Cutler can make every throw on the field and a lot of people have doubt about that with Young and Leinert. For diferent reasons.

 

Marauder

Footballguy
Fantasy football players are always looking for a steal. Since most of us on this board who are in Dynasty leagues are generally drafting fairly late in our rookie drafts and we tend to take a RB with our first pick, we are always looking for a QB that we can get late in round 2, which usually eliminates the the top guys.

 

Mungo Burrows

Footballguy
I'd say a few things come into play to varying degrees:

The "big" guys are well known and people have heard about them and seen them quite a bit. This allows people to have observed (or more likely heard talking heads mention) weaknesses in their games. Granted every player has weaknesses, but the more famous guys' are more well publicized.

The exposure that the "big" guys get works against them with this crowd on a couple levels - some are just tired of hearing about the same people and want to see someone else get some recognition or they want to claim to have 'known about' someone for a while. Others are sometimes considered overhyped because they come from big-time programs where they had lots of exposure and "other factors" in their favor that supposedly won't translate in the bigs (supporting cast, family pedigree, etc.)

I think another factor is that anybody who thinks a guy like leinart will do well doesn't really have anything to post, because that's already established. Pimping a guy like cutler is against the grain, and thus is worthy of posting. Then since we all read these forums and see that kind of posts, groupthink starts to take over because all people have seen are "cutler is great" threads and very few "leinart is great" threads and we forget that there are no "leinart is great" threads because that's old news. Eventually inertia takes over and then many start believing what we read, and the Cutler rising momentum just feeds on itself.

 

EBF

Footballguy
I think it's been warranted in many of the aforementioned cases.

Personally, I thought Leftwich was a much better prospect than Palmer. I'm a Pac-10 homer, and I was never impressed with Palmer. He made bad decisions and just didn't seem to have the mental skills.

I liked Carr out of the 2002 class.

I liked Manning out of the 2004 class, and had Roethlisberger second.

I liked Aaron Rodgers last year. Alex Smith just never struck me as a very good prospect. He played in a flukey system in a cupcake conference.

This year, I prefer Leinart. Young is an untested passer and Cutler seems like an overrated Losman.

Anyhow, I don't think people always choose the underdogs. Guys like Vince Young, Eli Manning, and David Carr have gotten plenty of love around here.

 

Liquid Tension

Footballguy
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so" or think they're actually smarter than NFL GMs? :confused:

Every year, particularly around here, we get tons of people (if not the majority) who love the OTHER QB. Sometimes it works out (Big Ben), most of the time it doesn't.

2006 -- Jay Cutler over Matt Leinart and Vince Young
2005 -- Charlie Frye over Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
2003 -- Kyle Boller over Carson Palmer and Byron Leftwich
2002 -- Patrick Ramsey over David Carr and Joey Harrington
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
2000 -- Chris Redman over Chad Pennington (don't remember people pimping Carmazzi) :confused: :shrug: :confused:
Interesting thought but you may be trying to hard to find something. While I do think people are always trying to find the sleeper nobody talked about, you see experts such as Jaworski saying Cutler is better. The others listed seem like legit questions except for Palmer who looked great all the time to me. I may be taking this wrong as you may be saying that Jaworski knows less than the scouts? This may be true, but let's be honest, this is not as cut and dry as baseball stats because of the need of other players to make you look good. Baseball lends itself too much more accurate and reliable statistical studying.
 
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Couch Potato

Footballguy
In addition to what others have said, we are a national board (international actually), and those who come here get to see a lot more of players in their own region and have seen them shine. It is natural to have a bias toward what you have seen if that player has done well.

Also, as fantasy rookie drafts take place, fantasy geeks focus on and identify with players they have rostered. We project lots of future success on these players because we own the benefits of their future success. We don't mean to be biased, but it's a natural thing.

 
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Chaos Commish

Footballguy
Its hard to stand out when you agree with the herd? I dont think this applies to our friend Chaos Commish. His love for Cutler is genuine, not at all a ploy.
Oh, I love playing contrarian, no doubt. But, I only do so when I think there's good reason, and I feel fairly certain. And it isn't love for Cutler in my case either. It's big big doubts for Leinart, and then seeing enough in Cutler to like his chances better. Could have been Whitehurst, and if you want a real scary confession, I like Whitehurst about the same as Leinart. It's all stemming from Leinart doubts though. Young is a beast, and if he translates, he's a football god. No way would I want Cutler before a crack at that guy. One reason I keep suggesting Cutler is going to fall, is because I think he should. When Jay was atop the second tier, a probabl 2nd rounder, I was very comfortable with that, and happy to predict he'd be better than Matt eventually. When Cutler skyrocketed up the board, that comfort vanished. Neither of these guys should have franchise grades. Maybe they'll both become franchise QBs. I will be twice surprised. If either one of them do, I will be once surprised.

I've boasted about being pretty hot on QBs going back to McNabb over at FFToday, where I used to waste my time. This place is better, hate to say it.

99 - I led the McNabb charge into the teeth of rabid Eagles fans who wanted revolution over that horrible pick. I was writing about how great Donovan was going to be midway through his final year of school. I liked Couch, but not nearly the same. I argued long and hard for Culpepper over McNown to the ridicule and scorn of Bears fans. Akili Smith at .03 had me in hysterics. Both PAC 10 QBs were terrible and I knew it, and I reported it.

00 - I didn't like any of them. I probably feel better about Cutler than I did Pennington who I saw similar to Leinart and Whitehurst now.

01 - Vick was the ONE, Neo, a savior. He was that once in a lifetime sport changing, game dominating, transcending talent, who I would be privileged to watch and share the lore in my old age. :bag: :D

02 - Loved Carr, hated Harrington, saw Ramsey how Jason sees Cutler. Hated Harrington. I can still ramble off about 20 of his quotes from that draft season. PAC 10 bust all the way. I saw it coming and could not understand the hype. Thought Carr would be better, but his situation is his excuse. Never understood Ramsey hype.

03 - Pimped Palmer harder than any QB not named Vick. I think he's the best QB on the planet right now, and I was pretty close to that assessment before the draft. I was not the contrarian, but I fought them off vigorously. I felt about the same with Grossman and Leftwich as I do Cutler. Pretty decent chance, a lot of potential.

04 - I was teaching people how to spell Roethlisberger in October 03. :D My bro was living with me at the time and I remember walking into his room one Saturday and saying, "I have seen the future and his name is Roethlisberger!" He cracked up, and insisted that was too many syllables for a franchise QB. Linebacker? Guard? Sure. Not QB. Anyway, I loved Ben and was pretty hard on Rivers and Eli. I could have those two wrong, but we're still waiting on Rivers and Eli looks better than I expected.

05 - I like, and still like, Rodgers more than most Pac 10 QBs. I like him more than Leinart, but I'm not so sure anymore. I didn't form a strong opinion of Alex Smith. I still haven't. I would have never taken him #1 overall. No way. Him Rodgers and Andrew Walter all seemed like the same guy to me, Rodgers probably being the better leader and competitor.

06 - Young is the ONE, Neo, a savior. He is a transcendent talent who will transform the game, a once in a lifetime dominating force who will conquer the world as we know it. It will be my privilege to witness and tell the stories to wide eyed younguns in my old age. No position in all of sports has as much room under the ceiling as NFL QB, and Young will raise the roof. Cutler looks like a nice prospect and Leinart looks like another questionable PAC 10 hype.

 
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fatness

against the grain
A lot of it is simply typical American thought. Short memory + attracted to the latest trend. I'm not exempting myself from this, either.

 

rabidfireweasel

Footballguy
Most people want to look like a genius. It is FF equivalent of Fancy Play Syndrome (a Mike Caro term) in poker. IT was crazy how many people here had Leftwich ahead of Palmer, although few will admit it now. I remember being crushed praising him, hearing he was a one year wonder. It only got worse when Brunell got benched. Now, it is clear he was a superstar in waiting.

 

Wadsworth

Footballguy
A lot of it comes down to personal taste. This year is a very good example of it. With the big 3 QBs you have 3 very differint styles and backgrounds. Leinart is the proven timing QB that brings big time college production and questionable arm strength, Young is the crazy talented athlete, leader, with as strange a throwing motions as you'll ever see on a legit QB prospect and Cutler has the arm that can make all the throws but played much of the time out of the limelight.

Of course that's a gross over-generalazation of all three. But they are very differint types of QB. It's the same as the who's the best QB ever argument. Marino, Elway, Montana, etc. It's more about the type of QB you like than the actual ability of any of them.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so" or think they're actually smarter than NFL GMs? :confused:

Every year, particularly around here, we get tons of people (if not the majority) who love the OTHER QB. Sometimes it works out (Big Ben), most of the time it doesn't.

2006 -- Jay Cutler over Matt Leinart and Vince Young
2005 -- Charlie Frye over Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
2003 -- Kyle Boller over Carson Palmer and Byron Leftwich
2002 -- Patrick Ramsey over David Carr and Joey Harrington
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
2000 -- Chris Redman over Chad Pennington (don't remember people pimping Carmazzi) :confused: :shrug: :confused:
My head must be in the sand. Seems to me most people are pimping Young, and have been for a long time. Cutler is relatively new to most people, so they're impressed. I also don't remember Boller being "that guy" as much, some people loved him, most from what I recall were stuck firmly in either Palmer or Leftwich's camp.

Just give me the MAC QB and I'm happy. :)

 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so" or think they're actually smarter than NFL GMs? :confused:

Every year, particularly around here, we get tons of people (if not the majority) who love the OTHER QB. Sometimes it works out (Big Ben), most of the time it doesn't.

2006 -- Jay Cutler over Matt Leinart and Vince Young
2005 -- Charlie Frye over Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
2003 -- Kyle Boller over Carson Palmer and Byron Leftwich
2002 -- Patrick Ramsey over David Carr and Joey Harrington
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
2000 -- Chris Redman over Chad Pennington (don't remember people pimping Carmazzi) :confused: :shrug: :confused:
I dunno Jason. I'm not sure if it's going for the "other" as much as it is when you have something like the draft with such a huge range of surrounding casts for these guys, you'll very often not have a consensus on players.But on the years:

2006: obviously, who knows yet.

2005: Too early to say. but I've not seen anything from Rodgers and Smith that makes me think anyone was wrong to have them not a clear #1.

2004: I'm fine with Roethlisberger

2003: I don't remember that much love for Boller. Palmer with USC and Leftwich with his lineman carrying him down the field got all the love from what I remember.

2002: It's not exactly like Harrington's been great. Carr has potential I suppose but how long do you wait on him?

2001: Vick

2000: I don't remember that much on Redman. Pennington / Moss was all the rage from what I remember.

So I guess I'm saying I don't know that I really see what you're saying there. But I do say that it's tough to get a unified consensus when you're evaluating players from such varied backgrounds. It's a lot easier to argue an NFC North QB vs an AFC South guy than it is to compare an SEC guy to a Mid America guy.

J

 
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kevinray

Footballguy
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
This has kind of been touched upon but honestly Rivers was 2004's Cutler. He was the guy that everyone fell in love with after his work outs and Senior Bowl performance. All the early predictions had Big Ben as the second best QB going to the Steelers and Rivers not even in the first. Ben then jumped up to being talked about as one of the best talents in the draft and going to the Giants. Then Rivers gained his momentum and we all know what happened. Basically depending on how you think of Rivers he could be an example of what happens when you over value a players post college workouts and pass on a guy who was originally valued as better.
 

Bojang0301

Omar4Heisman
Big Ben isn't a fair call. A) He was number one on some experts boards and B) Philip Rivers was the outside guy that year.

 

JayMan

Footballguy
Fantasy football players are always looking for a steal. Since most of us on this board who are in Dynasty leagues are generally drafting fairly late in our rookie drafts and we tend to take a RB with our first pick, we are always looking for a QB that we can get late in round 2, which usually eliminates the the top guys.
:goodposting: Also, there is no glory in saying... I knew Peyton Manning was going to be a good NFL QB just prior to being drafted...

Everyone is trying to post somewhere that they knew Tom Brady was going to be a marvellous leader - even if he was only picked 199th - all those NFL GMs are sure dumb ones - paid to look at football films and not snatching Brady with the, let's say, 147th pick - when me, a leisure fan, cleary saw and posted in one of the forums that he was going to lead the Pats to at least 3 rings - making Joe Montana look silly...

Now there's a post that you can dig up and say you are a football genius... no one is going to look at the threads where you mentioned that Tim Couch was going to revolutionize the football world...

 

jurb26

Footballguy
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
This has kind of been touched upon but honestly Rivers was 2004's Cutler. He was the guy that everyone fell in love with after his work outs and Senior Bowl performance. All the early predictions had Big Ben as the second best QB going to the Steelers and Rivers not even in the first. Ben then jumped up to being talked about as one of the best talents in the draft and going to the Giants. Then Rivers gained his momentum and we all know what happened. Basically depending on how you think of Rivers he could be an example of what happens when you over value a players post college workouts and pass on a guy who was originally valued as better.
We haven't even seen Rivers play yet. :shrug: Wow, just realized you guys FINALLY got this smilie: :whoosh: Dang I had been asking for this thing for about a year! :thumbup:

 

year2000ready

Footballguy
Most people want to look like a genius. It is FF equivalent of Fancy Play Syndrome (a Mike Caro term) in poker. IT was crazy how many people here had Leftwich ahead of Palmer, although few will admit it now. I remember being crushed praising him, hearing he was a one year wonder. It only got worse when Brunell got benched. Now, it is clear he was a superstar in waiting.
I think you've really got the answer to this question, though I have no idea what you are referring to with this "FF equivalent." Everyone nowadays wants to look like they're the genius, that one guy who's one step ahead of everyone else, just like the guy on CSI or House, or any other similarly stupid and unrealistic TV shows based around just that kind of character. So if you really think some lesser-known QB is going to do well, then you think you're one step ahead of everyone else. Too bad it doesn't really matter at all, it's much better to be right, than try to prove everyone else wrong.(whoops, sorry, this is the wrong place for a rant on society, isn't it?)

Oh, and how about people actually answer the main question of this thread. FYI: I liked QB x over y in year z is NOT answering the question!!

 

Chaos Commish

Footballguy
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so"
yes
There's truth to this, but if you think about it, it doesn't make sense to favor the "other" QB to get to I Told You So. If that's your motivation, then the "other" QB has nothing to do with it. You're just trying to get it right.
 

Bri

Footballguy
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so"
yes
There's truth to this, but if you think about it, it doesn't make sense to favor the "other" QB to get to I Told You So. If that's your motivation, then the "other" QB has nothing to do with it. You're just trying to get it right.
I think they're sort of an underdog and obviosuly going to a better team so that makes them more attarctive
 

Aaronur

Footballguy
I think it is easier to knock a guy that is on top than to sing his praises. And when it comes to the draft most of us get caught up in how well people performed in their drills and anything we can use to exploit their negatives. We like to root for the underdog and his drawbacks don't seem as big because he isn't number one and we don't expect as much from him.

 

Rovers

Footballguy
I'm not sure that there is a clear consensus that Cutler IS "the other guy". Two pundits who base their rankings on watching film are Jaworski and Mayock, and they like Cutler. The 'consnensus" guys like Kiper, who base their rankings on what they hear from their NFL sources have Young and Leinart over Cutler. You never hear Kiper talking about studying films.

Now, when one ranks a player, are they ranking him as far as attempting to predict where he gets picked, or is it a ranking of what player will have the best NFL career? The consnesus guys are clearly trying to predict where players will get drafted. The film guys are attempting to predict which player will have the best pro career. Some, like Clayton, I'm not sure what the heck he's trying to predict. Some of both, maybe.

My take on the QB's:

Cutler: Like Jaws, I think he is the most rounded of the three. No stranger to adversity, played with constant pass rush pressure, throwing to recievers that weren't capable of getting good seperation. Strong arm, smart. Confident leader, but not overly cocky. Spent his after practice hours in the weight room with his linemen. Has taken on the odds at every turn. Never complained about the lack of time to throw at Vandy. Had a great pro day under miserable weather conditions. Can drop back, needs some footwork improvement, but can roll out, throw on the run, and can tuck it when need be. He has a lineman's mind set. Durable as heck.

Lienart: least likely to bust, but: I just don't like west coast guys.... Losman is a surfer dude type too. Rumblings about firing his agent for the explicit reason of getting set up with a big time Hollywood promotional talent agency..... red flag. Smart, ran an NFL offense, but is a pure pocket passer with limited mobility and arm strength that might be lacking for a NE NFL team. Talked about being the next Joe Namath, star on and off the field. I'll pass.

Young: Highest potential upside, also most likely to bust. While he is elusive, I just don't think he has the speed to be the sort of running threat that Vick is in the NFL. Never had to find passing lanes in college.... with that delivery, he'll have to make that adjustment in the NFL. To be most effective, he neds an O scheme that uses his abilities best.... and that means when, not if, he misses some games, the offense has to change gears with his backup QB. I guess I have to mention the Wonderlic.

Bottom line, I think Cutler is the most likely future pro bowler of the three. I don't see him as the "other guy" at all.

 

tommyGunZ

Footballguy
I'm not in love with any of the three to predict pro bowls, but I think Lienart is head and shoulders above Cutler and VY. Lienart's fall from grace amongst draft heads is so predictable - it seems that every year the early consensus top player (or QB) becomes a question mark as he is disected and his flaws accented. Never fails, a less publicized player with a bit more "mystery" becomes the in pick. Keep in mind that Leinart has been disected more than any player in recent history due to returning to college after being the consensus #1 last year.

Paralysis by overanalysis, it happens every year. Leinart was the #1 pick last year, and he probably should be the #1 pick this year if a team w/o a franchise QB wasn't picking 1st.

 
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People who want to elevate Cutler over Leinart and Young are conveniently ignoring the demands of playing and winning in big, pressure-cooker games on the big stages at high profile schools. No qb is a lock, ever, but I really don't see any reason to believe Cutler has any better chance to succeed in the league than Leinart or Young.

I am a biased Vandy grad who went to every home game and saw a lot of blow-outs.
Sooo...who are you touting then? It's hard to tell 'cause Vandy's '05 home games went like this:Miss...................W...31-23Richmond...........W...37-13Middle Tenn. St...L...15-17L.S.U..................L...6-34Georgia..............L...17-34Kentucky............L...43-48Almost 25 home ppg. Impressive. All Leinart and Young do is win. The postseason love for a guy whose team went 5-6 w/a 6-game skid after starting 4-0 is bewildering.
Young: Highest potential upside, also most likely to bust. While he is elusive, I just don't think he has the speed to be the sort of running threat that Vick is in the NFL.
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.Umm, err....Fast enough, I'd say, and when you figure in his size, vision, and strength, he'll probably be the best running qb in the league not named Micheal Vick the night of 4/29. Hell...that may be an understatement. He's arguably already a better passer than Vick, and by a lot, since Vick is no master. It's funny though...It seems as if some people say "He's not as fast as Vick, therefore not as good a runner" (poor logic in the first place), then use that tidbit to somehow indicate that Young's running ability will be negated in the NFL. LOL. There are NFL qbs with not even half of Vick's running ability who still have to be accounted for and who still pick up sizeable rushing totals and can hurt good defenses running or throwing on the run.
Never had to find passing lanes in college....
Then I guess throwing for 3036 yards this past year w/o finding a passing lane was pretty gd impressive.
 
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Rovers

Footballguy
People who want to elevate Cutler over Leinart and Young are conveniently ignoring the demands of playing and winning in big, pressure-cooker games on the big stages at high profile schools. No qb is a lock, ever, but I really don't see any reason to believe Cutler has any better chance to succeed in the league than Leinart or Young.

I am a biased Vandy grad who went to every home game and saw a lot of blow-outs.
Sooo...who are you touting then? It's hard to tell 'cause Vandy's '05 home games went like this:Miss...................W...31-23

Richmond...........W...37-13

Middle Tenn. St...L...15-17

L.S.U..................L...6-34

Georgia..............L...17-34

Kentucky............L...43-48

Almost 25 home ppg. Impressive.

All Leinart and Young do is win. The postseason love for a guy whose team went 5-6 w/a 6-game skid after starting 4-0 is bewildering.

Young: Highest potential upside, also most likely to bust. While he is elusive, I just don't think he has the speed to be the sort of running threat that Vick is in the NFL.
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.Umm, err....Fast enough, I'd say, and when you figure in his size, vision, and strength, he'll probably be the best running qb in the league not named Micheal Vick the night of 4/29. Hell...that may be an understatement. He's arguably already a better passer than Vick, and by a lot, since Vick is no master.

It's funny though...It seems as if some people say, "He's not as fast as Vick, therefore not as good a runner as Vick" (poor logic in the first place), then use that tidbit to somehow indicate that Young's running ability will be negated in the NFL. LOL. There are NFL qbs with not even half of Vick's running ability who still have to be accounted for and who still pick up sizeable rushing totals and can hurt good defenses running or throwing on the run.

Never had to find passing lanes in college....
Then throwing for 3036 yards this past year w/o finding a passing lane was pretty gd impressive.
On Young, the point you are missing is that he ALWAYS semed to have the O backfield to himself.... when pressure came, he ran. Vick still hasn't learned how to find a passing lane, and I think Young will have the same difficulty.... without the escapabilty Vick has. The NFL game is a whole lot faster than college ball. However, you seem to overlook the positive points I did make on Young.... can you say agenda? I said he has the highest potential upside, and I haven't seen a SINGLE draft pundit say young is ready to start in the NFL. I happen to agree.... he'll need some time to develop. He wasn't throwing over 6'6" DL's at Texas, and didn't have to find passing lanes. It's about how transferable the talent set is to the NFL game, and Young simply is the least ready of the three to make the transition. And.... whether you like it or not.... he got a seven on the Wonderlic. That right there makes him potential bust material. Hey, when he took the SAME test, he should have gotten way more than a freakin 17. He got a 7. Bottom line. Can he run a pro offense? I have my doubts, but if he can.... then he does have the highest potential upside of the three. Like I said. I just would not want a near functional illiterate running my NFL offense.

I see red flags on both Leinart and Young.... with Cutler, I see some minor flaws that are easilly correctable.

 
when pressure came, he ran
Did you watch him much this year? Over and over, he made throws with blitzing lbs or safties, crashing ends in his face, people hanging around his legs, etc. Sure he ran, too. But far more on designed runs and zone reads than most realize. Hell, most of the people making this criticism don't even know what the zone read is.
The NFL game is a whole lot faster than college ball.
OK, but Young in his last season outrushed Vick in his last college season. We could go on like this all night, but there's no way either of us would convince the other....but just relying on the premise that Young's whole game is gonna fall apart 'cause he's not as fast as Vick just won't cut it.
However, you seem to overlook the positive points I did make on Young.... can you say agenda?
If I don't address the points in your thread with which I agree, that indicates an agenda on my part? So many rules...
whether you like it or not.... he got a seven on the Wonderlic...He got a 7. Bottom line.
...and so did you. What's that? You never took the Wonderlich? Well, I heard you did and that you scored a 7. The Wonderlich people refuse to substantiate your rumored score. Nevertheless, I heard it, so it must be true. Bottom line.
That right there makes him potential bust material.
Really? Then I guess Ryan Leaf's Wonderlich made him Pro Bowl mat'l, and Marino's made him bust mat'l, too. LMAO.
He wasn't throwing over 6'6" DL's at Texas, and didn't have to find passing lanes.
Sooo...are you saying that Texas' opponents didn't have 6' 6" DL's or that Young didn't throw from the pocket. Matters little, 'cause neither could be further from the truth. Either contention is ludicrous.
I just would not want a near functional illiterate running my NFL offense.
Wow....just, wow. That's just a ridiculous thing to say about this kid.
I see red flags on both Leinart and Young
I see red flags on every rookie.
 
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cstu

Footballguy
Most people want to look like a genius. It is FF equivalent of Fancy Play Syndrome (a Mike Caro term) in poker. IT was crazy how many people here had Leftwich ahead of Palmer, although few will admit it now. I remember being crushed praising him, hearing he was a one year wonder. It only got worse when Brunell got benched. Now, it is clear he was a superstar in waiting.
What's wrong with Leftwich over Palmer? I still think he could end up the best in the long-run. I also don't remember people buying into the Boller hype enough to rank him as the #1 QB.
 

CA_7

Footballguy
I am a biased Vandy grad who went to every home game and saw a lot of blow-outs.
Sooo...who are you touting then? It's hard to tell 'cause Vandy's '05 home games went like this:Miss...................W...31-23Richmond...........W...37-13Middle Tenn. St...L...15-17L.S.U..................L...6-34Georgia..............L...17-34Kentucky............L...43-48Almost 25 home ppg. Impressive.
I graduated back in 97, haven't been to a game in a few years.
 

Liquid Tension

Footballguy
I'm not sure that there is a clear consensus that Cutler IS "the other guy". Two pundits who base their rankings on watching film are Jaworski and Mayock, and they like Cutler. The 'consnensus" guys like Kiper, who base their rankings on what they hear from their NFL sources have Young and Leinart over Cutler. You never hear Kiper talking about studying films.

Now, when one ranks a player, are they ranking him as far as attempting to predict where he gets picked, or is it a ranking of what player will have the best NFL career? The consnesus guys are clearly trying to predict where players will get drafted. The film guys are attempting to predict which player will have the best pro career. Some, like Clayton, I'm not sure what the heck he's trying to predict. Some of both, maybe.
Excellent pointing out of the difference between where "you" think they will be picked (consensus) and how they will do in the pros (Jaworski) :thumbup: :goodposting:
 

Traders2001

Footballguy
Is it just that people want to be able to say "I told you so" or think they're actually smarter than NFL GMs? :confused:

Every year, particularly around here, we get tons of people (if not the majority) who love the OTHER QB. Sometimes it works out (Big Ben), most of the time it doesn't.

2006 -- Jay Cutler over Matt Leinart and Vince Young
2005 -- Charlie Frye over Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell
2004 -- Big Ben over Eli and Rivers
2003 -- Kyle Boller over Carson Palmer and Byron Leftwich
2002 -- Patrick Ramsey over David Carr and Joey Harrington
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
2000 -- Chris Redman over Chad Pennington (don't remember people pimping Carmazzi) :confused: :shrug: :confused:
If your talking FFL wise , Big Ben is worthless ( between 15 and 20 td a year not more )

 

P Boy

Footballguy
2001 -- DNP (everyone loved Vick)
Some of us were suspicious of the NFL throwing capabilty by a QB who only went 5 for 16 for 40 yds passing against a very weak BC pass D - or numbers close to that.Edited for Vick's actual passing stats vs BC: 5-17-1-61

 
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Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
People who want to elevate Cutler over Leinart and Young are conveniently ignoring the demands of playing and winning in big, pressure-cooker games on the big stages at high profile schools.
Hi HS,No offense but playing at Gainesville in front of the most hostile crowd outside of Oakland and in Knoxville in front of 110,000 is absolutely a pressure cooker big game on big stages against high profile schools.No, it's not the Rose Bowl. But to act like Cutler hasn't faced incredible pressure on a big time stage is just not accurate.J
 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.
:lmao: Let's just hope he n e v e r is chased by an NFL player who can run faster than a 4.57 40 on the Austin track...J

 

Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.
:lmao: Let's just hope he n e v e r is chased by an NFL player who can run faster than a 4.57 40 on the Austin track...J
Point taken, but there is something to what scotsman is saying - 1, that Young's game speed may be faster than his track speed (which is great for a QB) and 2, that Young's long stride really disguises his speed well - one of the signatures of watching VY run is that defenders frequently take the wrong angle and end up grabbing air.
 

P Boy

Footballguy
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.
:lmao: Let's just hope he n e v e r is chased by an NFL player who can run faster than a 4.57 40 on the Austin track...J
Joe, Joe, Joe.We all know that timed speed on the track in shorts & Tees are very different than football speed.

LOL @ sinking the barb, though.

 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I always have to laugh at this line of "reasoning". I watched the guy practice and play for four years at Texas and not once was he run down from behind. Not fast, right? But faster than anyone trying to catch him in the open field. E v e r.
:lmao: Let's just hope he n e v e r is chased by an NFL player who can run faster than a 4.57 40 on the Austin track...J
Point taken, but there is something to what scotsman is saying - 1, that Young's game speed may be faster than his track speed (which is great for a QB) and 2, that Young's long stride really disguises his speed well - one of the signatures of watching VY run is that defenders frequently take the wrong angle and end up grabbing air.
Hi Sigmund,Oh for sure, his game speed is better than his track speed. But I'd contend that's the same for a lot of the defensive guys he'll face as well. I'm just saying I don't think you'll see many pros grabbing for air against him like they did in college. That's not a knock on him - it's a compliment to the pros at this level.

And more than anything, I was amused at the "e v e r."

J

 
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No offense but playing at Gainesville in front of the most hostile crowd outside of Oakland and in Knoxville in front of 110,000 is absolutely a pressure cooker big game on big stages against high profile schools.

No, it's not the Rose Bowl. But to act like Cutler hasn't faced incredible pressure on a big time stage is just not accurate.
That's cool, but I said "playing and winning"...and let's face it, there's no way Vandy was expected to win any of those games against the big powers except mayyybeee Arkansas and Tennessee, who are both way down...and the Tennessee game is doubtful, as Vandy had lost 6 straight. Leinart and Young (after the Ohio St. win) were expected to win every week.Yeah, you could say his defense wasn't there, but you could say that about a couple of Texas games this year and several SC games. Those teams QBs simply refused to let their teams lose. You can also say the offense wasn't there in more than a few of those Vandy losses, even at home.

The Vandy offense scored more than 28 only 4 times, and was held to 6, 15, and 17 at home. The lowest SC scored all year was 34 and they were held under 42 only 4 times. The lowest Texas scored was 25 at Ohio State. The next lowest was 41 vs SC. They scored between 51 and 70 points 7 times. The Texas and SC offenses were there, led by their qbs, week-in and week-out.

When you look at what Leinart and Young did, it's truly remarkable...putting their teams on their backs and just willing them to victory. IMHO, what Leinart did this year was more impressive than '04 because of the weaker defense. He had to pull that team outta so many holes, and with more time, probably woulda done it against a pretty damn good Texas Defense.

Let's just hope he n e v e r is chased by an NFL player who can run faster than a 4.57 40 on the Austin track...
Well, I'm not saying he'll be running the same way in the pros that he did in college, but he played against some damn fast defenses, including the fastest - his own, and was never caught. I'm not saying he won't get caught from behind in the NFL. It is what it is. I hear this over and over..."He'd better hope they (those big bad meanies) don't catch him in the NFL". Well, yeah, they're big and bad, but almost all those guys came from the college ranks as well, and not that long ago, and I've already heard more than one defender, Teddy Bruschi for one, say they'd rather have Young on their side than have to try to tackle him. Never mind that Young just doesn't set himself up for big hits when running. He gets yards then gets OB if nothing else is there.

He was timed, in only one pass, with the 5th or 6th best (which?) time by a qb this year. He's far taller and bigger than any of the guys ahead of him on that list...and do you remember Young blowing away A.J. Hawk, who is projected to be the first LB taken, largely due to his great speed?

Also, you do realize that Austin was considered a slow track, right? That's why nobody who ran at the combine ran at the Texas pro day.

 
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