What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Why doesn't Tiki Barber merit more HOF consideration? (1 Viewer)

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
I know there is a lot of negative perception around him with regard to his persona and how he left/retired from the Giants to pursue a media career.  Obviously his criticism of Eli Manning to start of his media career blew up in his face when Eli and the Giants went on to win the SB the year after Tiki's retirement.

But once again, Tiki didn't make it into even the finalists conversation.  And considering he's been eligible for HOF consideration since 2012, it seems like he might be on the outside looking in, particularly when you see Edgerrin James in the finalists discussion.

But if we consider their respective careers...it just seems like there is a lot of personal bias against Tiki.

Career length: Tiki 10 years, James 11
YFS: Tiki 15,632, James 15,610
TD's: James 91, Tiki 67
YPC: Tiki 4.7, James 4.0

...and if you took their 5 best seasons, their seasonal averages were:

YFS: Tiki 2055, James 1973
TD's: James 59, Tiki 45

Yet James is a HOF finalist for the 3rd time while I don't believe Tiki has ever made it to this stage of the process.  So what gives?

 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
I think when it comes to RB's, voters tend to look at rushing yards and consider that the most important thing, and while Barber and James have similar total yards, James has 2k more rushing yards (while Barber has 2K more receiving yards, approximately in both cases).  I think that as younger writers become voters, more attention will get paid to total production, but for now, I think a lot of older voters think, "A RB should run the ball and that is what matters," and that thinking hurts a guy like Barber, and would hurt Kamara if he continued this career trajectory (OMG, he has no 1,000 rushing yard seasons!!). 

 

Doug B

Footballguy
I know there is a lot of negative perception around him with regard to his persona and how he left/retired from the Giants to pursue a media career.  Obviously his criticism of Eli Manning to start of his media career blew up in his face when Eli and the Giants went on to win the SB the year after Tiki's retirement.

But if we consider their respective careers...it just seems like there is a lot of personal bias against Tiki.

...

Yet James is a HOF finalist for the 3rd time while I don't believe Tiki has ever made it to this stage of the process.  So what gives?
For the immediate term, the items bolded matter among the media members who vote for the HOF. For better or worse, fair or unfair.

 

ZenoRazon

Footballguy
Corey Dillion has more rushing yards than Tiki Barber as does  Thomas Jones, Warrick Dunn,  Ricky Watters,  Jamal Lewis.

I just can't see it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

ShamrockPride

Footballguy
1. Too few TDs. He only found the end zone 67 time in his career. 55 of those were on the ground. That (the rushing TDs) doesn't even crack all time top 50.

2. Too many fumbles. Dude has 53 career fumbles. Only 14 more career TDs than fumbles, and just 2 more than his career rushing TDs.

 

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
ShamrockPride said:
1. Too few TDs. He only found the end zone 67 time in his career. 55 of those were on the ground. That (the rushing TDs) doesn't even crack all time top 50.

2. Too many fumbles. Dude has 53 career fumbles. Only 14 more career TDs than fumbles, and just 2 more than his career rushing TDs.
I've always thought that TD's were an overrated stat for RB quality measurement.  So because he didn't get 30 more 1-2 yard plunge opportunities into the EZ, he's somehow a lesser player?  And as far as fumbles...?  Again, sometimes it can be difficult to compare eras, but:

Tony Dorsett - 90
Franco Harris - 90
Walter Payton - 86
Eric Dickerson - 78
Marcus Allen - 65
OJ Simpson - 62
Thurman Thomas - 50

...obviously the resumes of some of the above are beyond reproach, but I also think that these are singular instances that don't warrant enough detraction to cover for the fact that Barber was one of the more unheralded/dominant players during a pretty significant stretch of time.

 

[scooter]

Footballguy
He was an All-Pro once.

He was a top-5 fantasy player twice.

(Fantasy rankings are a much better arbiter than Pro Bowls, since the Pro Bowl selection process has become watered down over the past 20 years.)

Among his peers, Priest Holmes, Edge, and Ricky Williams should get in before he does.
 

 

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
He was an All-Pro once.

He was a top-5 fantasy player twice.

(Fantasy rankings are a much better arbiter than Pro Bowls, since the Pro Bowl selection process has become watered down over the past 20 years.)

Among his peers, Priest Holmes, Edge, and Ricky Williams should get in before he does.
 
So was Edgerrin James (All-Pro once)...he’s up as a finalist for the third time despite having been eligible for three fewer years.  This isn’t a ‘Tiki should get in’ argument...it’s simply that a guy with his credentials should have at least made it as a Finalist once.  No?

 

[scooter]

Footballguy
He was an All-Pro once.

He was a top-5 fantasy player twice.

(Fantasy rankings are a much better arbiter than Pro Bowls, since the Pro Bowl selection process has become watered down over the past 20 years.)

Among his peers, Priest Holmes, Edge, and Ricky Williams should get in before he does.
So was Edgerrin James (All-Pro once)...he’s up as a finalist for the third time despite having been eligible for three fewer years.  This isn’t a ‘Tiki should get in’ argument...it’s simply that a guy with his credentials should have at least made it as a Finalist once.  No?
I agree that Tiki deserves to at least be named as a finalist, but I won't be broken-hearted if Tiki and Edge never make the HOF. They were both great for a short period of time.

The fact that both of their teams immediately won Super Bowls after they left is not a good sign for them.

 

Long Ball Larry

Footballguy
i suspect it's a bit of a halo effect for James.  He came out of the box blazing and kind of cemented his glamour status with Manning and Harrison.  Tiki took a bit to get going. Kind of crazy that he ended with 3 straight 2,000 YFS seasons.

 

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
i suspect it's a bit of a halo effect for James.  He came out of the box blazing and kind of cemented his glamour status with Manning and Harrison.  Tiki took a bit to get going. Kind of crazy that he ended with 3 straight 2,000 YFS seasons.
A 7 year stretch averaging 1920 YFS and 8 TD’s...

 
Last edited by a moderator:

travdogg

Footballguy
He was an All-Pro once.

He was a top-5 fantasy player twice.

(Fantasy rankings are a much better arbiter than Pro Bowls, since the Pro Bowl selection process has become watered down over the past 20 years.)

Among his peers, Priest Holmes, Edge, and Ricky Williams should get in before he does.
 
Priest Holmes is the name that always gets me. He was arguably as dominant as any RB ever has been for a 3.5 year stretch. He shouldn't be punished for lack of longevity. 3 straight years over 2000 total yards, and was well on his way to a 4th before injury, with 66 TD's during that span. Take away the rings, and Holmes was Terrell Davis, with more receiving work.

 

Elevencents

Footballguy
Priest Holmes is the name that always gets me. He was arguably as dominant as any RB ever has been for a 3.5 year stretch. He shouldn't be punished for lack of longevity. 3 straight years over 2000 total yards, and was well on his way to a 4th before injury, with 66 TD's during that span. Take away the rings, and Holmes was Terrell Davis, with more receiving work.
That’s a whole lotta TDs. 

 

[scooter]

Footballguy
He was an All-Pro once.

He was a top-5 fantasy player twice.

(Fantasy rankings are a much better arbiter than Pro Bowls, since the Pro Bowl selection process has become watered down over the past 20 years.)

Among his peers, Priest Holmes, Edge, and Ricky Williams should get in before he does.
Priest Holmes is the name that always gets me. He was arguably as dominant as any RB ever has been for a 3.5 year stretch. He shouldn't be punished for lack of longevity. 3 straight years over 2000 total yards, and was well on his way to a 4th before injury, with 66 TD's during that span. Take away the rings, and Holmes was Terrell Davis, with more receiving work.
Don't forget that Holmes has a ring from when he was with Baltimore.

When Terrell Davis had his 2000-yard season, he averaged 139 scrimmage yards per game.

LaDainian Tomlinson, in his best year, averaged 148 scrimmage yards per game.

In 2002, Priest Holmes averaged 163 scrimmage yards per game. That's the single-greatest season (in terms of scrimmage-yards-per-game) in NFL history.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
It is a combination of many things posted here.

  1. Too few TDs.. Yes, TDs matter, and they matter a lot, whether or not one wants to minimize them as "1-2 yard plunges".
  2. He is/was generally viewed as not being as good as several peers, including Edge, Priest, Ricky Williams, Watters, Larry Johnson, Portis, and Shaun Alexander, none of whom are likely to make the HOF.
  3. He made serious mistakes in his personal life that affected his perception with the masses, including the media. Not just criticizing Eli; thinking more about the intern thing at NBC (IIRC).
 

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
It is a combination of many things posted here.

  1. Too few TDs.. Yes, TDs matter, and they matter a lot, whether or not one wants to minimize them as "1-2 yard plunges".
  2. He is/was generally viewed as not being as good as several peers, including Edge, Priest, Ricky Williams, Watters, Larry Johnson, Portis, and Shaun Alexander, none of whom are likely to make the HOF.
  3. He made serious mistakes in his personal life that affected his perception with the masses, including the media. Not just criticizing Eli; thinking more about the intern thing at NBC (IIRC).
#3?  Blows my mind this would matter...

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
#3?  Blows my mind this would matter...
Blows my mind that anyone would think that personal reputation and personal relationship with media (read: HOF voters) would not matter. The voters are humans, not computers.

Although I personally think my #2 matters the most by far.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
Blows my mind that anyone would think that personal reputation and personal relationship with media (read: HOF voters) would not matter. The voters are humans, not computers.

Although I personally think my #2 matters the most by far.
That he divorced his wife and married the girl a week later (6 years AFTER his career ended!!!), a girl he left his 8 months pregnant wife with twins two years earlier while perhaps reprehensible has NOTHING to do with his football career or even off-the-field exploits.

No crime took place.  Just an extreme dirt bag move.  Not relevant in this context.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

msommer

Footballguy
That he divorced his wife and married the girl a week later (6 years AFTER his career ended!!!), a girl he left his 8 months pregnant wife with twins two years earlier while perhaps reprehensible has NOTHING to do with his football career or even off-the-field exploits.

No crime took place.  Just an extreme dirt bag move.  Not relevant in this context.
True, and Ray Lewis probably murdered a guy, yet he got in. I'm being told Big Ben is a lock despite his rapeyness. Whaddayaknow

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
That he divorced his wife and married the girl a week later (6 years AFTER his career ended!!!), a girl he left his 8 months pregnant wife with twins two years earlier while perhaps reprehensible has NOTHING to do with his football career or even off-the-field exploits.

No crime took place.  Just an extreme dirt bag move.  Not relevant in this context.
For a borderline player, being liked can help, being disliked can hurt. I’m surprised anyone would be surprised by that. 

But, again, the real issue is that several of his contemporaries were arguably better, and many of them will not make it into the HOF. Frankly, I’m surprised this is not obvious. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheDirtyWord

Footballguy
For a player on the cusp, being liked can help, being disliked can hurt. I’m surprised anyone would be surprised by that. 

But, again, the real issue is that several of his contemporaries were arguably better, and many of them will not make it into the HOF. Frankly, I’m surprised this is not obvious. 
As stated though...this wasn’t a question about whether he should or should not be in the HOF.  It’s a question about why he hasn’t even made it to the final room.  You’re right, several of his contemporaries may arguably be better.  The keyword there is arguably.

Hes 14th All-Time in YFS.  Everybody ahead of him is in or not yet eligible. 8 times the HOF committee has had a chance to debate him during SB Week.  He’s never gotten that far.

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
I think he falls short but he was a precursor to the modern era and he would have absolutely gone wild if he was in the league right now. 

 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
It is a combination of many things posted here.

  1. Too few TDs.. Yes, TDs matter, and they matter a lot, whether or not one wants to minimize them as "1-2 yard plunges".
  2. He is/was generally viewed as not being as good as several peers, including Edge, Priest, Ricky Williams, Watters, Larry Johnson, Portis, and Shaun Alexander, none of whom are likely to make the HOF.
  3. He made serious mistakes in his personal life that affected his perception with the masses, including the media. Not just criticizing Eli; thinking more about the intern thing at NBC (IIRC).
I seem to be hijacking a lot of threads lately, so what's one more. If TD's matter, where does that leave Shaun Alexander? He scored 112 total TDs (plus another 8 in 9 post season games). Every other NFL player that scored 100+ TD's has made the HOF (19) and the others are getting in (Fitzgerald, Gates, Peterson, Gonzalez). Alexander had 98 TD's in a five year stretch (103 counting the post season) which is insanity. Then he basically fell off a cliff.

I think most people would say SA shouldn't make the HOF and I can't say I disagree with that opinion. But man did he score a lot of touchdowns. He had over 2,400 touches (which ranks 39th all time) and almost 11,000 YFS. Will scoring that many TD's get Alexander much consideration for the Hall (either by balloting or the Veteran's Committee)? The easy answer is to say no without much discussion.

 

Tanner9919

Footballguy
hell they let Terrell Davis and Gayle Sayers in on the basis of 'he woulda been a great had he not been hurt' BS. I'm never going to understand how TD got in the HOF. 

just let Tiki in.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
I seem to be hijacking a lot of threads lately, so what's one more. If TD's matter, where does that leave Shaun Alexander? He scored 112 total TDs (plus another 8 in 9 post season games). Every other NFL player that scored 100+ TD's has made the HOF (19) and the others are getting in (Fitzgerald, Gates, Peterson, Gonzalez). Alexander had 98 TD's in a five year stretch (103 counting the post season) which is insanity. Then he basically fell off a cliff.

I think most people would say SA shouldn't make the HOF and I can't say I disagree with that opinion. But man did he score a lot of touchdowns. He had over 2,400 touches (which ranks 39th all time) and almost 11,000 YFS. Will scoring that many TD's get Alexander much consideration for the Hall (either by balloting or the Veteran's Committee)? The easy answer is to say no without much discussion.
You can't isolate stuff like this.

No, I don't think Alexander will make it, based on his total resume. Scoring TDs is the strongest part of his resume, but there is more to it.

Similarly, it is not appropriate to single out YFS and ignore everything else when advocating for Tiki. (Not saying you did this, but some have.)

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
hell they let Terrell Davis and Gayle Sayers in on the basis of 'he woulda been a great had he not been hurt' BS. I'm never going to understand how TD got in the HOF. 

just let Tiki in.
This is a really ignorant take about Davis and Sayers, and it pretty much invalidates your post.

 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
I personally find it interesting that there have been 7 RB that had at least 3 seasons with 2,000 YFS. Dickerson, LT, Faluk, and Payton are HOFers . . . but Edge, Holmes, and Tiki probably won't make it. I am still perplexed why voters seem to care way more about rushing yards from RBs and receiving yards don't seem to carry the same weight.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
I personally find it interesting that there have been 7 RB that had at least 3 seasons with 2,000 YFS. Dickerson, LT, Faluk, and Payton are HOFers . . . but Edge, Holmes, and Tiki probably won't make it. I am still perplexed why voters seem to care way more about rushing yards from RBs and receiving yards don't seem to carry the same weight.
 Do you really see no differences between Payton, Faulk, LT, and Dickerson and the others besides YFS that explains this? Come on, man. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

[scooter]

Footballguy
I personally find it interesting that there have been 7 RB that had at least 3 seasons with 2,000 YFS. Dickerson, LT, Faluk, and Payton are HOFers . . . but Edge, Holmes, and Tiki probably won't make it. I am still perplexed why voters seem to care way more about rushing yards from RBs and receiving yards don't seem to carry the same weight.
 Do you really see no differences between Payton, Faulk, LT, and Dickerson and the others besides YFS that explains this? Come on, man. 
Well, for one thing it's easier to pad your stats when you're gunning for 2000 rushing yards (as Davis and Dickerson did) than when you're going for 2000 scrimmage yards.

 

moleculo

Footballguy
At no point did anyone ever consider Tiki Barber to be one of the best backs in the league.  He was never dominant. Ok, he had one good year - the all-pro year in 2005.

I think pre-season FF rankings are a good way to sort out who was considered good (for offensive skill position guys).  Tiki had exactly one season his whole career where he was considered a first rounder (2006), and he retired after that.  Of course, it doesn't help that even in that season, he was ranked behind LdT, Shaun Alexander and Larry Johnson.  So, at Tikis peak, he was at best considered the 4th best back in the league.

Link

 
Last edited by a moderator:

STEADYMOBBIN 22

Footballguy
At no point did anyone ever consider Tiki Barber to be one of the best backs in the league.  He was never dominant. Ok, he had one good year - the all-pro year in 2005.

I think pre-season FF rankings are a good way to sort out who was considered good (for offensive skill position guys).  Tiki had exactly one season his whole career where he was considered a first rounder (2006), and he retired after that.  Of course, it doesn't help that even in that season, GE was ranked behind LdT, Shaun Alexander and Larry Johnson.  So, at Tikis peak, he was at best considered the 4th best back in the league.

Link
Had he not retired while still playing at a high level he would have had a ring and this would be a conversation. It’s not.

 

moleculo

Footballguy
Had he not retired while still playing at a high level he would have had a ring and this would be a conversation. It’s not.
Maybe. Maybe they don't win with Tiki.  I seem to remember him throwing shade at Eli, and that kind of galvanized the team. 

That's why you don't make the HoF on "coulda been" or "woulda been".

 

moleculo

Footballguy
Over a thousand rushing yards in 8 playoff games, an NFL MVP and SB MVP.  Key player in back to back SB championships.  
Tiki, for comparison, played in 7 playoff games.  475 yards(3.96YPC), 1 TD.

Davis: 8 playoff games, 1140 yards (5.59 ypc), 12 TDs.

 

matuski

Footballguy
Zach Thomas is the biggest snub imo.

Look at his numbers versus Urlacher.  Tell me why one was first ballot, other not in.

eta - hijack sorry

 
Last edited by a moderator:

ZenoRazon

Footballguy
hell they let Terrell Davis and Gayle Sayers in on the basis of 'he woulda been a great had he not been hurt' BS. I'm never going to understand how TD got in the HOF. 

just let Tiki in.
Gale Sayers was absolutely incredible, totally amazing,  there is no HOF if he isn't in it.  Pro football had never seen anyone like him before. And only Barry Sanders can be compared to him today.

Not about what he might have done it was about what he actually did which was daze and amaze everyone who saw him play. He was on a whole other level, the guy was fantastic.

 

ZenoRazon

Footballguy
Floyd Little  doesn't belong and nether does Terrell Davis  and no on Tiki Barber.

I am holding a mag that lists well lists, when it comes to All Time  Rushing, there is no Floyd Little or Terrell Davis listed talking top 50. There is Gerald Riggs, who is familiar with him?

Tiki is listed at number 26  but just above McCoy and Lynch.  I know he caught a lot of passes but, just how far down a rushing list can we go for HOF consideration?

Yes, some old timers below that but in thieir day they were tops like a Joe Perry,

 
Last edited by a moderator:

STEADYMOBBIN 22

Footballguy
Gale Sayers was absolutely incredible, totally amazing,  there is no HOF if he isn't in it.  Pro football had never seen anyone like him before. And only Barry Sanders can be compared to him today.

Not about what he might have done it was about what he actually did which was daze and amaze everyone who saw him play. He was on a whole other level, the guy was fantastic.
:rolleyes:  Gayle sayers might be the most overrated player of all time. Dude fumbled at an Eli Manning-esk rate and averaged a whopping 72 YPG against a bunch of slow white dudes who smoked and drank at halftime. 

 

STEADYMOBBIN 22

Footballguy
Floyd Little  doesn't belong and nether does Terrell Davis  and no on Tiki Barber.

I am holding a mag that lists well lists, when it comes to All Time  Rushing, there is no Floyd Little or Terrell Davis listed talking top 50. There is Gerald Riggs, who is familiar with him?

Tiki is listed at number 26  but just above McCoy and Lynch.  I know he caught a lot of passes but, just how far down a rushing list can we go for HOF consideration?

Yes, some old timers below that but in thieir day they were tops like a Joe Perry,
TD = twice the player Sayers was. 

 

ZenoRazon

Footballguy
:rolleyes:  Gayle sayers might be the most overrated player of all time. Dude fumbled at an Eli Manning-esk rate and averaged a whopping 72 YPG against a bunch of slow white dudes who smoked and drank at halftime. 
Career highlights and awards

4× Pro Bowl (1965–1967, 1969)

5× First-team All-Pro (1965–1969)

NFL Comeback Player of the Year (1969)

NFL Rookie of the Year (1965)

2× NFL rushing yards leader (1966, 1969)

NFL 1960s All-Decade Team

NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team

Chicago Bears No. 40 retired

2× Consensus All-American (1963, 1964)

3× All-Big Eight (1962–1964)

Kansas Jayhawks No. 48 retired

Career NFL statistics

Rushing yards:4,956

Yards per carry:5.0

Rushing touchdowns:39

Return yards:3,172

Return touchdowns:8

Player stats at NFL.com

Pro Football Hall of Fame

College Football Hall of Fame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNgay-Vrq6o

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top