Why isn't Trent Diler a better NFL QB? (1 Viewer)

[Banger]

Would anyone disagree with any of these characterizations? And if not, then what is there to suggest that Dilfer isn't an adequate NFL QB? I just don't get it.

He is adequate but that's all he is. NFL teams want good - great QB's and everyone realizes that Dilfer is neither. He is what he is an adequate stop gap which is why he is still in the NFL but starting for the worst offense in the league. He will have the job until next year when they either they draft/sign their future QB then he will be a decent backup for another team.

 

[P Boy]

I suppose Tommy Maddox is also not a bust then. Dilfer is nothing special, did not deserve his draft position and wasn't even wanted by the team he led to a superbowl... but I guess that is pretty impressive to wacko's who post garbage.

How's Billick's track record as a HC with QBs? If he would have kept Dilfer at a bargain price he might have seen another SB or 2. Bad, bad decision by Billick, and a bad example to choose for your end of the argument.

 

[Bojang0301]

I suppose Tommy Maddox is also not a bust then. Dilfer is nothing special, did not deserve his draft position and wasn't even wanted by the team he led to a superbowl... but I guess that is pretty impressive to wacko's who post garbage. 

How's Billick's track record as a HC with QBs? If he would have kept Dilfer at a bargain price he might have seen another SB or 2. Bad, bad decision by Billick, and a bad example to choose for your end of the argument.

If they would have kept Dilfer they still would have started Boller for half the season... Let's not forget the entire league didn't want him until Seattle picked him up very very late in free agency as a backup. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a little bit of a limb here and say if the entire league doesn't want you as a QB after you win a Superbowl... then your not much of a QB which is a position that success of a team has been placed solely on at times.

 

[jwvdcw]

I suppose Tommy Maddox is also not a bust then. Dilfer is nothing special, did not deserve his draft position and wasn't even wanted by the team he led to a superbowl... but I guess that is pretty impressive to wacko's who post garbage. 

How's Billick's track record as a HC with QBs? If he would have kept Dilfer at a bargain price he might have seen another SB or 2. Bad, bad decision by Billick, and a bad example to choose for your end of the argument.

I agree completely. Grbac was terrible and he was a big reason why the Ravens didn't repeat(obviously losing Lewis was huge as well).

 

[Chaka]

All Hail JW....:

The King of The Small Sample Size,

The Duke of The Repetitive Argument,

and

The Sultan of The Six Month Bump.

Dilfer is decent that's all.

I said that it was a small sample size....I'm not sure where I've repeated this argument before- If you can provide a link, then I'll surely say you're right and stop arguing....Well since Dilfer has been named the starter, I thought it was worth bumping since he wasn't starting when this was created, but I guess you don't understand that.

Do you really need the link? Gus Frerotte, Todd Boumann, Spergon Wynn anyone? anyone? jw.....?I understand the point you say you are trying to make but 1) you cannot judge his career picemeal, Dilfer is better than the early TB days and not nearly what it appears you are trying to make him out to be with the 5 game sample size and 2) how you can "look us in the eye" with a "straight face" and suggest that you do not have a reputation of bumping ancient posts for s***s and giggles is mind boggling.

fwiw I think it's good shtick but you gotta expect to get called on it every now and again.

 

[jwvdcw]

All Hail JW....:

The King of The Small Sample Size,  

The Duke of The Repetitive Argument,

and

The Sultan of The Six Month Bump.

Dilfer is decent that's all.

I said that it was a small sample size....I'm not sure where I've repeated this argument before- If you can provide a link, then I'll surely say you're right and stop arguing....Well since Dilfer has been named the starter, I thought it was worth bumping since he wasn't starting when this was created, but I guess you don't understand that.

Do you really need the link? Gus Frerotte, Todd Boumann, Spergon Wynn anyone? anyone? jw.....?I understand the point you say you are trying to make but 1) you cannot judge his career picemeal, Dilfer is better than the early TB days and not nearly what it appears you are trying to make him out to be with the 5 game sample size and 2) how you can "look us in the eye" with a "straight face" and suggest that you do not have a reputation of bumping ancient posts for s***s and giggles is mind boggling.

fwiw I think it's good shtick but you gotta expect to get called on it every now and again.

Are you talking about the Minny QB situation? What does that have anything to do with this discussion? I asked you to provide a link to where I've repeated this argument about Dilfer before.

 

[Gargoylez]

Dilfer is a terrible QB; the worst to ever win a Super Bowl. He's highly inaccurate, and despite his reputation, has more INTs than TDs in his career, and has never hit 60% completions for a year.

This always gives me a chuckle.Dilfer had the worst offensive personell in Tampa Bay for at least 4 years and when they FINALLY got some talent, they went to the play-offs.

Baltimore, also, had marginal talent and was a Run first team... no matter WHO the QB was with a line like that and a RB like Lewis.

In Seattle he was a back up and now he is on yet another team with very marginal talent on the offensive side of the ball.

Give me a time when he had an all-pro cast around him and he failed to produce.

You can't...

Never had it. Probably never will.

But you can keep thinking he was horrible. Some people don't see the real game for the "i looked at his stats on espn.com" guru's.

 

[Chaka]

All Hail JW....:

The King of The Small Sample Size,  

The Duke of The Repetitive Argument,

and

The Sultan of The Six Month Bump.

Dilfer is decent that's all.

I said that it was a small sample size....I'm not sure where I've repeated this argument before- If you can provide a link, then I'll surely say you're right and stop arguing....Well since Dilfer has been named the starter, I thought it was worth bumping since he wasn't starting when this was created, but I guess you don't understand that.

Do you really need the link? Gus Frerotte, Todd Boumann, Spergon Wynn anyone? anyone? jw.....?I understand the point you say you are trying to make but 1) you cannot judge his career picemeal, Dilfer is better than the early TB days and not nearly what it appears you are trying to make him out to be with the 5 game sample size and 2) how you can "look us in the eye" with a "straight face" and suggest that you do not have a reputation of bumping ancient posts for s***s and giggles is mind boggling.

fwiw I think it's good shtick but you gotta expect to get called on it every now and again.

Are you talking about the Minny QB situation? What does that have anything to do with this discussion? I asked you to provide a link to where I've repeated this argument about Dilfer before.

Fair enough. I thought you were looking for an example of you using the exact same argumentative techniques that you demonstrate in this here thread; small sample sizes, repetitive arguments and you have bumped the Minny QB thread multiple times from the depths beyond page 5. My bad, I guess.Keep up the good work. I can't wait for you to bump a year old "Ray Lewis is the best leader of men since Moses" thread. Or your next Onslaught v Icy Pots thread.

 

[valhallan]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

 

[Capella]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

 

[valhallan]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

You're joking, right?

 

[Capella]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

You're joking, right?

He had a good year or two. Helped them get to the NFC title game in '79.

 

[valhallan]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

You're joking, right?

He had a good year or two. Helped them get to the NFC title game in '79.

Yeah, that #1 defense snagged a first round bye and ol' Dougie kept up his sub 50 completion rate against Philly by going 7 of 15..

 

[Capella]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

You're joking, right?

He had a good year or two. Helped them get to the NFC title game in '79.

Yeah, that #1 defense snagged a first round bye and ol' Dougie kept up his sub 50 completion rate against Philly by going 7 of 15..

Ol' Dougie was commomly referred to as the leader of that team (along with Leeroy), although his numbers were pretty ugly. He put together better seasons in '80 and '81 (quite good in '81) before being allowed to get away after '82. I'm sure you'll find some way to complain about his 3500 yards and 19 touchdowns in '81 though.

 

[valhallan]

Did any quarterback ever play well in Tampa prior to Gruden?

How easily we forget the graveyard that franchise was for so long..

Doug Williams was pretty good.

You're joking, right?

He had a good year or two. Helped them get to the NFC title game in '79.

Yeah, that #1 defense snagged a first round bye and ol' Dougie kept up his sub 50 completion rate against Philly by going 7 of 15..

Ol' Dougie was commomly referred to as the leader of that team (along with Leeroy), although his numbers were pretty ugly. He put together better seasons in '80 and '81 (quite good in '81) before being allowed to get away after '82. I'm sure you'll find some way to complain about his 3500 yards and 19 touchdowns in '81 though.

Actually, he managed just over 50% completion that year.. quite impressive.The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win. Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

 

[gump]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win. Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of great players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to Dilfer's inability to complete routine passes, make plays when his protection broke down, and generally display any sort of leadership or self confidence. Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

 

[firecrackerfreakshow]

The one thing that Trent doesn't have that successful QB's with tools like he has is................. functioning brain cells

 

[Capella]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win.  Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of great players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to Dilfer's inability to complete routine passes, make plays when his protection broke down, and generally display any sort of leadership or self confidence. Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

Yup.I find all this Dilfer support laughable (all the comments about lack of talent, horrible situations every year, etc) when Shaun King came in midway through his rookie season and completed over 60% of his passes and was a big reason they won 5 out of 6 late-season games.

 

[valhallan]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win.  Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of great players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to Dilfer's inability to complete routine passes, make plays when his protection broke down, and generally display any sort of leadership or self confidence. Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

Yup.I find all this Dilfer support laughable (all the comments about lack of talent, horrible situations every year, etc) when Shaun King came in midway through his rookie season and completed over 60% of his passes and was a big reason they won 5 out of 6 late-season games.

Oh c'mon Aaron Brooks came in and did the same for the Saints in 2000.. quick rookies with no leash tend to surprise defenses.Anyway, I think the Bucs history is important. Quarterbacks and coaches take most of the heat, but teams lose consistently because they are bad organizations that make bad decisions. So I don't think Dilfer could've faired much better than he did considering his environment. That's not saying he's a good NFL quarterback, just more like it's tough to say he flat-out sucked when in reality the whole organization sucked.

 

[redman]

He's Vinny Testaverde, minus ten years or so. It's a combination of the fact that he's been in WCO systems ill-suited to his talent, which would be to do play-action and throw deep, combined with his problematic accuracy. I think he and Vinny are sort of like Doug Williams. They have to be in just the right systems for their talents to show. But even under the best of circumstances they're not ever going to be Hall of Famers.

 

[jwvdcw]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win.  Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of greatdefensive players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to putting a young QB with bad WRs and expecting too much of him early in his career.Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

fixed

 

[Capella]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win.  Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of greatdefensive players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to putting a young QB with bad WRs and expecting too much of him early in his career.Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

fixed

In 98, Dilfer was going into his 5th season in the league. He was no longer a young QB and it was no longer too much expectations too early in his career.

 

[gump]

The point is no QB ever had much success in Tampa, so I just don't think anyone should have expected much more out of Dilfer than you got - a 5-year starter with a 37-37 regular season record, 55% completion, slightly fewer tds than ints, and a playoff win.  Certainly acceptable for a franchise that had seen 12 straight 10-loss seasons prior to his arrival.

The Bucs QB history has nothing to do with it. The team exploded on to the scene in '97 with a young core of greatdefensive players. The team took a step back in '98 thanks in large part to putting a young QB with bad WRs and expecting too much of him early in his career.Dilfer was beated down early in his career, but this was his time to step up. He stepped back instead, which was not "acceptable". That is what he will be remembered for in Tampa. Shaun King took the offense over shortly after.

fixed

In 98, Dilfer was going into his 5th season in the league. He was no longer a young QB and it was no longer too much expectations too early in his career.

Exactly! Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

 

[P Boy]

Exactly! Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

 

[Bojang0301]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

 

[Capella]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

hilarious.so instead of "the bad quarterback made those guys into bad receivers" argument, you're settled into the "bad receivers made that guy a bad quarterback" stance.

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player. Dilfer was never good enough to make them better. He also had two very good pass-catching backs in Dunn and Alstott. Absolutely no excuses.

He was horrible. Period. He overthrew guys, then underthrew guys, then misread routes all. the. time. Go back and watch the games, God knows I've seen them enough times already.

 

[Capella]

I can't believe I'm even rationally having this discussion. If you think Dilfer was anything more than a extremely below-average QB while in Tampa, you're insane. There's a reason Dungy was afraid of throwing the ball, and was happy trying to win every game 13-10.

 

[P Boy]

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player.

That you are actually defending these guys as NFL quality WRs tells me everything I need to know.Did Dilfer steal a girlfriend from you in the past or something? Have relationships with your Mom, maybe?

 

[jwvdcw]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

Can the anit-Dilfer crowd please stop refferring positively to Dilfer's TB teams? Yes, they were a good team, but thats because of the defense. Dilfer's surrounding talent was terrible on offense, so it is very misleading to continually say how great those teams were. TIA.

 

[Capella]

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player.

That you are actually defending these guys as NFL quality WRs tells me everything I need to know.Did Dilfer steal a girlfriend from you in the past or something? Have relationships with your Mom, maybe?

Sweet reply. You forgot the "your momma's fat" line.

Dilfer was a horrible NFL quarterback while in Tampa. If you can't see that for yourself you either a) never saw him play here (likely, considering you're a Broncos fan or b) know nothing about football (also likely, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure) or c) both.

Harper was a massive bust but put up a few decent seasons while with the Cowboys. But to illuminate the point even more clearly, Emanual had a 3-year run before coming to Tampa where he put up 1,039, 921 and 991 yards...while catching 74, 75 and 65 passes.

His first season with Dilfer was a 41-636 yard affair. He was plenty good...the QB was not.

 

[Capella]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

Can the anit-Dilfer crowd please stop refferring positively to Dilfer's TB teams? Yes, they were a good team, but thats because of the defense. Dilfer's surrounding talent was terrible on offense, so it is very misleading to continually say how great those teams were. TIA.

He was reason #1 they didn't go further than they did in '97 and '98, and a big reason why things turned for the better when he got hurt in '99. Why should we just forget that to make your argument better?

 

[jwvdcw]

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player.

That you are actually defending these guys as NFL quality WRs tells me everything I need to know.Did Dilfer steal a girlfriend from you in the past or something? Have relationships with your Mom, maybe?

Seriously.

Those guys were terrible and all but 5 QBs in the league would've sucked with them.

I'll second the comparison of Dilfer to McNabb minus the rushing ability.

 

[chitlins3]

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

Dilfer did not get benched for King. Dilfer broke his collarbone in week 12 against Seattle, King had not played prior to that game. King also led Tampa to a 14 point outburst against Washington in the Divisional Round of the playoff (a game they would have lost but not for a botched FG snap at the end), and 6 points in the NFC championship game.

 

[Capella]

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player.

That you are actually defending these guys as NFL quality WRs tells me everything I need to know.Did Dilfer steal a girlfriend from you in the past or something? Have relationships with your Mom, maybe?

Seriously.

Those guys were terrible and all but 5 QBs in the league would've sucked with them.

I'll second the comparison of Dilfer to McNabb minus the rushing ability.

ok.

You comparing Dilfer to McNabb despite the fact that he's never even shown 1/8th the ability of Donovan is maybe the funniest thing I've read today.

Chicken or the egg? Did the QB make the WRs bad or did the WRs make the QB bad?

Considering the mutiny the defense had towards Dilfer in '99, which lead to the coaching staff benching him for a game on the road at Detroit in favor of the legendary Eric Zeier, I'd tend to believe it was the horrible QB play that made the offense sputter. But whaddya I know, I'm sure jwdwslkdfkl;'akl;'dfl knows much more about the QB play of the Tampa Bay Bucs than I ever will.

 

[Capella]

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

Dilfer did not get benched for King. Dilfer broke his collarbone in week 12 against Seattle, King had not played prior to that game. King also led Tampa to a 14 point outburst against Washington in the Divisional Round of the playoff (a game they would have lost but not for a botched FG snap at the end), and 6 points in the NFC championship game.

Reports stated he was ready to come back in time for the NFCCG. But you're right, he was hurt in the Seattle game.

 

[P Boy]

Sweet reply. You forgot the "your momma's fat" line.Dilfer was a horrible NFL quarterback while in Tampa. If you can't see that for yourself you either a) never saw him play here (likely, considering you're a Broncos fan or b) know nothing about football (also likely, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure) or c) both.

lmao!

 

[Capella]

Sweet reply.

You forgot the "your momma's fat" line.

Dilfer was a horrible NFL quarterback while in Tampa. If you can't see that for yourself you either a) never saw him play here (likely, considering you're a Broncos fan or b) know nothing about football (also likely, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure) or c) both.

lmao!

great post.what about the rest of what I said?

 

[P Boy]

Sweet reply.

You forgot the "your momma's fat" line.

Dilfer was a horrible NFL quarterback while in Tampa. If you can't see that for yourself you either a) never saw him play here (likely, considering you're a Broncos fan or b) know nothing about football (also likely, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure) or c) both.

lmao!

great post.what about the rest of what I said?

My, my. Emanuel played those 'great' years in the June Jones 'run & shoot' offenses - the ones where Jeff George threw for over 4000 yds & even Bobby freakin' Herbert threw for over 3100 yds. Next you'll be telling me that Herbert is better than Dilfer.Emanuel's stats in that O are an aberration - no more. How'd he do in MIA, DET, & NE after he left TB? What's next, making a case for Karl 'The Truth' Williams being a stud, since he led TB in rec yds one year while Dilfer was there? Or maybe Alstott, since he led TB in receiving one year when Dilfer was there? Or maybe TE Jackie Harris being a stud reciever since he also was a leader in rec while Dilfer was there? There weren't even WRs that could outperform Alstott or Harris. That's ugly. Butt ugly.

 

[CalBear]

My, my. Emanuel played those 'great' years in the June Jones 'run & shoot' offenses - the ones where Jeff George threw for over 4000 yds & even Bobby freakin' Herbert threw for over 3100 yds. Next you'll be telling me that Herbert is better than Dilfer.

So, he was the leading receiver in one of the top passing offenses in the league, but he wasn't any good?By the time he went to Miami he was already 30 years old.

 

[P Boy]

Dilfer was a horrible NFL quarterback while in Tampa. If you can't see that for yourself you either a) never saw him play here (likely, considering you're a Broncos fan or b) know nothing about football (also likely, but I don't know you well enough to say for sure) or c) both.

I'll tell you what. I'll list all the WRs in TB during the 6 years that Dilfer was there, and I'll list their yearly averages while in TB, and since you have so much more experience with TB players & I may have an acute lack of football acumen, I'll let you tell me which of these players are stud WRs: PLAYER REC REC YDS REC TDs Yo Murphy 4.0 28.0 0.0 Willy Tate 0.0 0.0 0.0 Willie Green 9.0 150.0 0.0 Tyji Armstrong 14.5 166.5 0.5 Robb Thomas 16.0 206.3 1.0 Reidel Anthony 38.7 484.0 4.0 Lawrence Dawsey 38.0 522.5 0.5 Lamar Thomas 8.5 100.5 0.0 Karl Williams 24.3 290.0 1.3 John Davis 2.3 18.0 0.7 Jacquez Green 35.0 521.0 2.5 Horace Copeland 21.3 336.0 0.8 Harold Bishop 0.0 0.0 0.0 Darnell McDonald 9.0 96.0 1.0 Courtney Hawkins 41.3 491.7 1.7 Charles Wilson 31.0 652.0 6.0 Brice Hunter 2.0 36.5 0.5 Bert Emanuel 31.5 437.0 1.5 Alvin Harper 32.5 461.0 1.5

 

[gump]

Ponyboy-Appreciate the research, but Dilfer took a step back in '98 with the same basic WR corp he had in '97. They seemed fine in '97.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

The problem is none of this is really relevant. Whether or not you think Dilfer can be a very good QB with a good supporting cast is moot, since he's got one of the worst three supporting casts in the league right now.

I was about to stomp all over this argument until I realized that Todd Heap, Jamal Lewis and Derrick Mason don't play for Cleveland.

 

[jwvdcw]

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player.

That you are actually defending these guys as NFL quality WRs tells me everything I need to know.Did Dilfer steal a girlfriend from you in the past or something? Have relationships with your Mom, maybe?

Seriously.

Those guys were terrible and all but 5 QBs in the league would've sucked with them.

I'll second the comparison of Dilfer to McNabb minus the rushing ability.

ok.

You comparing Dilfer to McNabb despite the fact that he's never even shown 1/8th the ability of Donovan is maybe the funniest thing I've read today.

Chicken or the egg? Did the QB make the WRs bad or did the WRs make the QB bad?

Considering the mutiny the defense had towards Dilfer in '99, which lead to the coaching staff benching him for a game on the road at Detroit in favor of the legendary Eric Zeier, I'd tend to believe it was the horrible QB play that made the offense sputter. But whaddya I know, I'm sure jwdwslkdfkl;'akl;'dfl knows much more about the QB play of the Tampa Bay Bucs than I ever will.

Ok, for the last time: I AM NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU....Dilfer was terrible in TB. But, I think its unfair to expect any young QB to develop when immediately cast in this situation:1. Poor WRs

2. Rookie or young QB

3. Expectations to win

If a QB has only 2 of these, then I still think he can develop. For example, Eli Manning has 1 and 2, but not 3...he is allowed to lose for a few years and be fine because nobody expects much from that team. But Dilfer had huge expectations because their defense was so good that it made them SB contenders.

So yes, just to repeat...I agree with you that Dilfer was absolutely terrible during his entire stint in TB.

But now as I look at him, I see a QB that has developed somewhat. I see a much better QB. Look, I can admit that you know a lot more about TB than me. But can you at least concede that I know a ton more than you about the Ravens than you? And that I probably saw him play a lot more there than you? And can you also concede that since I liked him a lot and followed his career since he left that I probably know more about his games in Seattle than you? Ok then....well all jokes aside I'm not an idiot when it comes to football(insert joke here)....And I saw a decent NFL QB when I watched him play in those situations despite never having great WR talent. I saw a QB that can manage a game, a QB that is a good leader, a QB that throws a nice deep ball, a QB that can hurt you when he has good WRs. I saw a QB that had some talent and had his head on straight. I saw a QB that was totally relieved to finally be out of that terrible QB situation in TB.

Capella, I've tried to be very objective and fair in this post here, which I'll admit that I'm always not. Now I realize that you hate Dilfer because his slow development probably cost your team some key wins. But can you at least try to see what I'm saying here?

 

[jwvdcw]

He got benched for Shaun King on a pretty darn good team. I guess that means nothing though. King almost led them to a SB after that.

Dilfer did not get benched for King. Dilfer broke his collarbone in week 12 against Seattle, King had not played prior to that game. King also led Tampa to a 14 point outburst against Washington in the Divisional Round of the playoff (a game they would have lost but not for a botched FG snap at the end), and 6 points in the NFC championship game.



Hurts to acutally bring facts into play, huh?

But even if we ignore the fact that he was hurt not benched....lets go along those lines of 'well since pro NFL coaches are saying something by their benching/starting of player X, and they know a lot more than us, then that must mean something.' Well then what about that fact that Cleveland went out and made Dilfer their starter this year in the same offseason where Bledsoe, Warner, Brees, A. Rogers, Ramsey, A Brooks, Garcia, and Testaverde were all either availabe as FAs or were on the trade block?

Just to note: I'm not a fan of this "well NFL coaches made this decision, so this player must be good' argument, but since you're using it against me, I'm just showing you how it could work the other way.

 

[gump]

Ok, for the last time: I AM NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU....Dilfer was terrible in TB. But, I think its unfair to expect any young QB to develop when immediately cast in this situation:

1. Poor WRs

2. Rookie or young QB

3. Expectations to win

I can't speak for Capella, buy MY argument is that Dilfer did pretty well with the above situation in 1997. He then came back in '98, with several years under his belt, and took a major step back. I went to every home game, and watched every away game intently. I was a Dilfer fan before '98, wanted him gone after '98. He was that bad...in every way.

 

[jwvdcw]

Ok, for the last time: I AM NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU....Dilfer was terrible in TB. But, I think its unfair to expect any young QB to develop when immediately cast in this situation:

1. Poor WRs

2. Rookie or young QB

3. Expectations to win

I can't speak for Capella, buy MY argument is that Dilfer did pretty well with the above situation in 1997. He then came back in '98, with several years under his belt, and took a major step back. I went to every home game, and watched every away game intently. I was a Dilfer fan before '98, wanted him gone after '98. He was that bad...in every way.

Fair enough...Just a question because I'm not sure: How did his supporting cast/coaching/expectations for the team change between those two years?

 

[BGP]

I'm expecting Dilfer to lead my Browns to another top 5 draft pick in 2006. Does this make him a good QB or bad QB? I mean, its a high draft pick!

 

[Gargoylez]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

hilarious.so instead of "the bad quarterback made those guys into bad receivers" argument, you're settled into the "bad receivers made that guy a bad quarterback" stance.

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player. Dilfer was never good enough to make them better. He also had two very good pass-catching backs in Dunn and Alstott. Absolutely no excuses.

He was horrible. Period. He overthrew guys, then underthrew guys, then misread routes all. the. time. Go back and watch the games, God knows I've seen them enough times already.

Thanks for th alaughes.Surprised your a Buc fan, figured you watched a game or two with them... I have watched alot of dilfer in a BUC uni, Raven Uni and Seattle uniform.

No offense, but your lost in this. I am sure you will retaliate with some witty line, but save it. When your wrong you are wrong, period.

Dilfer is no awesome QB but he is very serviceable. Maybe retain a few things you have seen over the past few years will ya?

 

[Bojang0301]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

hilarious.so instead of "the bad quarterback made those guys into bad receivers" argument, you're settled into the "bad receivers made that guy a bad quarterback" stance.

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player. Dilfer was never good enough to make them better. He also had two very good pass-catching backs in Dunn and Alstott. Absolutely no excuses.

He was horrible. Period. He overthrew guys, then underthrew guys, then misread routes all. the. time. Go back and watch the games, God knows I've seen them enough times already.

Thanks for th alaughes.Surprised your a Buc fan, figured you watched a game or two with them... I have watched alot of dilfer in a BUC uni, Raven Uni and Seattle uniform.

No offense, but your lost in this. I am sure you will retaliate with some witty line, but save it. When your wrong you are wrong, period.

Dilfer is no awesome QB but he is very serviceable. Maybe retain a few things you have seen over the past few years will ya?

Nope, Dilfer sucks. Ravens won inspite of him not because of him. Seattle didn't win with him and while he actually did well there for awhile he got injured and Hasselbeck, who is also not great by any stretch, produced better then him. Dilfer has since then in spot duty looked terrible. I expect nothing the same from him in Cleveland this year.

 

[jwvdcw]

Exactly!  Dilfer wasn't a "young QB with bad WRs" the year before in 1997 when the Bucs started 5-0 and almost beat Green Bay in Green Bay in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Again, as the team began to gel, the experienced Dilfer fell apart.

Wow. Dilfer doesn't play with a single WR who would have been a #4 WR on most NFL teams until he gets to SEA - unless you count Harper, who was a turd that played on great DAL teams, and Stokley, who was raw as a piece of hamburger when he played with BAL. Then with SEA he has to fight Holmgren's golden boy.A QB needs a least a modicum of WRs who can be at least moderately effective to put up good numbers, unless the guy is named something like Elway (made decent players out of the 3 amigos - that's worthy of the HoF all by itself) or Favre (made Schroeder & FBoC Freeman into studs before they went elsewhere & showed how truly talentless they are).

Plain & simple, Dilfer has been saddled with crap at WR. Yet the guy earns the respect of his teammates everywhere he goes, wins a SB when his HC thought Tony Banks was a better QB (that a whole 'nother bag of outright laughs), and turned the outright garbage at TB into a pro-Bowl apperance.

hilarious.so instead of "the bad quarterback made those guys into bad receivers" argument, you're settled into the "bad receivers made that guy a bad quarterback" stance.

Emanual and Harper were good enough to play other places and contribute. J Green was plenty good enough his first few years to be a decent player. Dilfer was never good enough to make them better. He also had two very good pass-catching backs in Dunn and Alstott. Absolutely no excuses.

He was horrible. Period. He overthrew guys, then underthrew guys, then misread routes all. the. time. Go back and watch the games, God knows I've seen them enough times already.

Thanks for th alaughes.Surprised your a Buc fan, figured you watched a game or two with them... I have watched alot of dilfer in a BUC uni, Raven Uni and Seattle uniform.

No offense, but your lost in this. I am sure you will retaliate with some witty line, but save it. When your wrong you are wrong, period.

Dilfer is no awesome QB but he is very serviceable. Maybe retain a few things you have seen over the past few years will ya?

Nope, Dilfer sucks. Ravens won inspite of him not because of him. Seattle didn't win with him and while he actually did well there for awhile he got injured and Hasselbeck, who is also not great by any stretch, produced better then him. Dilfer has since then in spot duty looked terrible. I expect nothing the same from him in Cleveland this year.

You mean the same Ravens that were 4-3 before Dilfer took over and 13-1 after he took over? They won in spite of him?