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Will Peyton Break the TD record? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TheFanatic
- Start date
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
not gonna happen
Not sure how that qualifies as choking. Manning played really poorly last night, but his performance late in the game was *WAY* better than his performance early in the game. His last four drives were a game-tying TD in the 4th quarter, a failed drive at the end of the 4th quarter, and then a pair of overtime drives that crossed midfield. The first overtime drive ended when an offensive pass interference penalty took Denver from an easy 4th-and-inches to a tough 3rd-and-14. The second overtime drive ended with Welker dropping an easy conversion on 3rd-and-8 to get Denver into field goal range.
I know that "choking" is really shorthand that means whatever makes Peyton look worst, but isn't playing your best football late in a 1-score game sort of the opposite of choking? The criticism of Peyton Manning last night should be that he sucked, not that he choked.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Seems like "choking" would be more relevant to the winning QB in that game who was totally unstoppable......until he just needed one score to win the game and then couldn't move the ball at all on 4 consecutive drives.
I don't follow. Surely you aren't talking about Tom Terrific, the king of clutch. Did you see that game-winning FG drive he led his team on in OT?
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
The whole choking thing is wrong. You don't choke against Tom Brady. It's just like you don't choke against Michael Jordan or Muhammad Ali. You lose to them, sometimes in spectacular and surprising fashion, but these guys are the best. You don't choke against the best.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Plus, you have to remember that Bill Belichick is generally considered not only a great head coach, but one of the best defensive coaches ever, so even though that defense has major deficiencies, Belichick is still a great enough defensive coach to design great specific game plans around that. Makes you wonder how the Manning/Brady matchups would have gone over the years if Manning had Belichick and Brady had Manning's coaches (most of whom have been good, just not Belichick).
bostonfred
Footballguy
The criticism of Manning last night is, and should be, that he took the bait and audibled to run after run, getting Moreno killed by giving him a ridiculous 37 carries in the frigid cold because he was scared to throw the ball. Manning could have put that game away. Or at least, he could have chosen to take the risk. But just like his record setting year in 2004, when he led his team to just three points in the AFCCG, when Manning gets to Foxboro, he doesn't play like himself.
The issue last night isn't Manning's bad throws - although the interception hat was called back by penalty would have ended the game. The issue was that he didn't even try to throw the ball. The wind conditions might not have been ideal, but Brady threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs while Manning called Moreno's number and prayed for the clock to run faster. He didn't want the ball because he was afraid that he would lose the game. And that lost them the game, and possibly Knowshon Moreno.
moleculo
Footballguy
I don't think it was a matter of being scared to throw, I think he wasn't able to get the ball down-field and the Pats DB's were playing the WR's tight. Not slinging it around may have been the right call, it's tough to say without first-hand knowledge of the Broncos preparations last week.bostonfred said:
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, I saw thatAdam Harstad said:
did you see that 28 points he put up the first 16 min of the second half to take the lead after being buried 24-0?
smartass
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I'd like to know how often the Broncos practice in cold weather. Anyone know this? Given that most of their games down the stretch, home or away, are likely to be in colder weather, it only makes sense to practice outside as much as possible, no? The fact that Peyton played at Tennessee in the SEC (see: hardly any true cold weather games in college), and then spent most of his NFL career at Indy in the AFC South (see: not many cold weather games), are big reasons why he doesn't play as well in cold weather as guys like Brady and Eli, who are used to playing in such conditions every year. Look at Drew Brees: he doesn't play that well in cold weather games either.
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moleculo
Footballguy
I know they did last week.
Chad Brown was just on 104.3 talking about how Belichick has the Pats try to practice in crappy weather as much as possible, so when games like yesterday happen, they will be ready to go. Brady, especially, relishes the chance to work in it.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
You mean the same guy what put no points up in the first half while getting buried for 24? The largest halftime deficit he and Belichek had ever seen in either of their careers?
This just in. Guys are allowed to have a bad half. Both of these guys did in that game. To say one choked and the other didn't is ridiculous. Tom Brady got the Patriots back into the game, but he surely didn't win it. The Broncos special teams lost it. And Manning did a great job keeping Brady off the field for quite a while and take what the D was giving them (gaping hole in the middle for Moreno to exploit) and come back and tie it up himself at the end of regulation.
All either of them did was set themselves up for a tie. It took a terrible mistake on special teams for one team to get the win, but it certainly wasn't Manning or Brady who iced it for their teams...
Bamac
Footballguy
Both Brady and Manning (and Belichick, for that matter) are very good, yet mortal. Boring but true -- and less boring than the never-ending Brady/Manning pissing match.
Run It Up
Footballguy
I agreed with you before, but now you just sound bitter. Peyton played as well as anyone could have reasonably expected him to, at the end of the game. But throughout he was a non-factor, he took himself out of the gameplan.Adam Harstad said:
It sounds like you're diminishing what Brady and the Pats accomplished last night, the Pats played great for the entirety of the game on all sides of the ball, if it hadn't of been for those 3 early turnovers I'm not convinced the Pats wouldn't have killed the Broncos like they did last year.
Long story short, the Broncos are imo the best team in football right now -- and the Patriots have their number.
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Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
The real question is who chokes more in a big game, Manning or Welker?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
so, brady gets credited with von miller blowing through the line and a couple rb fumbles ---- what happened to the shark pool?
sometimes I get the feeling you guys just post nonsense for the sake of arguing about something.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Yet Peyton gets blamed for exploiting the run defense by sending Moreno up the middle over and over and not passing for 500 yards. That worked pretty well for a half. Kept the Pats offense off the field. Was Manning supposed to catch that ball that Welker dropped late or gift wrap the handoff to Ball? We can dance back and forth all day here.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
he was supposed to throw for better than 50% at 4 ypa --- and not throwing the pick would've also helped.
I don't know what you're imagining, but nobody is dancing with you.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
and while we're chatting, let's not gloss over the 2nd pick he threw on his great scoring drive that should've ended that game if the refs hadn't bailed him out.
Oh, I get it. Denver ran 48 times for 280 yards (vs. 36 passes), and this proves that Peyton Manning is a bad QB because he was afraid to throw. And last year, New England ran 54 times for 254 yards against Denver (vs. 31 passes), and that proved that Tom Brady was a good QB because he knew to stick with the run when it was working.bostonfred said:
#logic
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Tom Brady got a total of THREE drives that went longer than 35 yards all day long. One of them ended in no points after Brady threw incomplete on 4th down. After New England went up 28-24, Tom Brady had five chances to put the game away, and not a single one of those drives topped 35 yards.
Tom Brady had a fantastic 3rd quarter, and an ice cold 4th quarter and overtime. Seems to me that, by most definitions of "clutch", that doesn't qualify.
Let's also not gloss over that terrible pass Brady threw that Wesley Woodyard bobbled 4 times but couldn't bring in.
Again, Manning sucked last night. I've got no problem with that. It was easily his worst game of the season. The drops and the fumbles certainly didn't help matters, but Manning seemingly couldn't complete a pass over 10 yards with the wind. I just don't see how anyone could reasonably say he CHOKED, since he played substantially better late than early. That seems to be the opposite of choking.
G
General Tso
Guest
Anyone who says Manning had a good game last night has no credibility.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I only read the last couple pages of the game thread when I got home, but I'm pretty sure some guy in there said manning played top notch.
I believe that's the best notch
G
General Tso
Guest
Not you, but a few people in here are. I actually like your take on it.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Yes, in 2012, the patriots ran the ball 54 times. 4 of those were brady, including a td run, but you're right. I was there, it was a nice fall day, and ridley got 28 carries - not 37 in the freezing cold. Bolden and woodhead shared the load, just like ball and cj anderson v except bolden and woodhead combined for 21 carries. Anderson and ball combined for 10. They drove moreno into the ground last night, largely on mannings decisions at the line of scimmage. But while they were doing that, they were actually running and passing. In fact, the patriots scored 24 straight points to go up 31 to 7, and manning tried to rally, but came up well short. My issue isn't with the run/pass ratio. Its that manning had 71 yards on the day partway through the fourth quarter. He wasn't leading an offense, he was trying to run the clock out, starting in the first quarter. Those are totally different things.
I know you watch the games, so your snarky response seems a bit disingenuous. Do you really not understand why there's a difference between how those two games played out?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't think you can really blame Peyton for Ball and Anderson fumbling and their coach putting them on the bench.bostonfred said:
It seems like in these arguments anything that ever goes wrong for Manning's teams is Mannings' fault.
It's interesting to me that people (not necessarily you) brought the word "choke" into this at all, because Brady's game on Sunday night was a vintage Peyton Manning game in this series that they usually blow up Peyton for. He was unstoppable, moving the ball up and down the field at will, until the game was on the line. Then he couldn't move it at all. Isn't that what people usually pile on Peyton for? The only difference here is that, once again, Brady got a lucky break at the end. Let's say that Welker had returned that punt for a TD instead of causing a game-ending fumble. Would the Brady supporters have piled on him for choking and not being able to move the ball when it counted after going right up and down the field with ease before that? Of course not, they would have lauded him for his gutty performance and amazing comeback that fell just short. They would have (and are) praised the exact same game script that they've blasted Peyton for during his career.
I also find it interesting that people say Denver wouldn't have even been in the game if Brady's teammates didn't lose those fumbles when Peyton's teammates lost more fumbles.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
in your imaginary scenario does brady throw for 50% completions at 4 ypa with 2 picks, or does he get to keep his actual numbers?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
You mean the penalty that allowed the pass to be picked off in the first place? Keep bringing logic like that.Kool-Aid Larry said:
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I think if it was actually a penalty it would've been called quite a few times against denver throughout the gameYou mean the penalty that allowed the pass to be picked off in the first place? Keep bringing logic like that.Kool-Aid Larry said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Still blaming the officials?I think if it was actually a penalty it would've been called quite a few times against denver throughout the gameYou mean the penalty that allowed the pass to be picked off in the first place? Keep bringing logic like that.Kool-Aid Larry said:
Wow, it's like the Carolina game has jaded you Patriots fans forever.purestrength
Footballguy
I hadn't read this thread in a while, so I thought I might check for revised predictions on Peyton's chances of breaking the TD record.
Instead there's more Manning vs. Brady crap. I guess there's no need to check this thread again.
Instead there's more Manning vs. Brady crap. I guess there's no need to check this thread again.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Also, this suggestion that Belichick let the Broncos run on them, just so they could keep Manning in check, is asinine. Yeah, after that 2nd turnover, when the Broncos started at the Patriots 10, I am sure Belichick had no problem letting the Broncos have two runs for an easy score. "Yeah, they scored, but we let them, and at least we didn't let Peyton throw a TD against us this time!"
Anarchy99
Footballguy
A lot of these cyclical arguments are really silly when you get right down to it. Games are decided by other players, yet somehow the QB on one of the teams is responsible. Case in point: NE lost their last two SBs, but both Giants victories were greatly aided by two low probability circus catches by middle of the road WRs in Tyree and Manningham. Giants go on to win, and Brady is now out of the conversation (by some) as GOAT because the Pats lost two SBs on plays involving the defense. But if those two passes went incomplete and Brady was 5-0 in SBs, many would call him the GOAT.
In the most recent DEN-NE game, had DEN ran the ball every play in OT and the Broncos went on to win, people would be saying how great Manning played to right the ship and still win, that Brady choked, etc. when neither QB could have been involved at the end of the game. These things make no sense, but that's just how it goes.
In the most recent DEN-NE game, had DEN ran the ball every play in OT and the Broncos went on to win, people would be saying how great Manning played to right the ship and still win, that Brady choked, etc. when neither QB could have been involved at the end of the game. These things make no sense, but that's just how it goes.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Keeps his actual numbers, which is kind of the point. Great statistical performance but being unable to finish at the end is usually what Brady fans pile on Peyton for.
Like last year when Peyton threw for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and 0 INTs but had several crucial fumbles from his teammates and lost to Brady's 235yds and 1 TD. Or in 2010 when Peyton threw for 400 yards and 4 TDs but couldn't get that last score against Brady's 185 yards passing and should-be game ending interception that at the end that was dropped.
Point being that people are now lauding Brady for doing exactly the same thing that they usually criticize Peyton for. Their roles were completely flipped in this game. Peyton was Brady nursing a lead with the run game and mild statistical numbers. Brady was Peyton putting up points quickly with a huge statistical day but not being able to get that last score at the end of the game. All of the sudden, stats are all that matter and end of game performance is considered irrelevant by the same group of people that have always defended Brady and picked on Peyton in this rivalry by saying that stats are irrelevant and end of game performance is what matters.
Brady outplayed Peyton on Sunday night. By a lot. It's just funny to me that Brady fans are only willing to acknowledge that a game like his on Sunday night is still a good game when it's him doing it and not Peyton. And that they're willing to throw around the word "choke" at the QB that was playing poorly but put together his one great drive at he end rather than at the QB that was playing great but became completely irrelevant at the end. It's the exact opposite of what they've called a choke in the past.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
also, brady won, while manning lost all your 'just the same' games.
Warrior
Footballguy
Yeah, giving the ball to Moreno and his 6.1 YPC in a close games was a horrible...horrible 224 yard mistake
parrot
Footballguy
This is a sweet strawman and all, but the fact is that the Patriots stayed in a nickel almost the entire game. Three cornerbacks played more snaps than any of the linebackers. In total, the linebacking corps took a total of 180 snaps and the CB corps 270. So for their 90 offensive snaps, on average, they had 3 CBs and 2 LBs on the field. Did they "let the Broncos run"? No, but they certainly had a scheme that made running look attractive.Also, this suggestion that Belichick let the Broncos run on them, just so they could keep Manning in check, is asinine. Yeah, after that 2nd turnover, when the Broncos started at the Patriots 10, I am sure Belichick had no problem letting the Broncos have two runs for an easy score. "Yeah, they scored, but we let them, and at least we didn't let Peyton throw a TD against us this time!"
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bostonfred
Footballguy
1) I don't blame Manning for putting Moreno in over Anderson and Ball. That's on the (interim) head coach. But Manning made the decision, repeatedly, to run the ball, not pass it. It's really that simple. He chose again and again to run, because he would rather have a run play against a pass defense than pass against the pass defense. That's what he does. It's what the Patriots wanted him to do. And it let them get back into the game. I don't know if you're disputing any of these things, but there isn't much room for argument. There have been articles posted about Manning's tendency to do this long before this game. Moreno had a career high in carries. And at least one Patriots player said that that was their game plan. They took Manning out of the game by letting him take himself out of the game, and Manning obliged.
2) I never said Manning choked, and in fact specifically said that he didn't. He even led a game tying drive. But his decision to run the clock out starting in the first half cost him an opportunity to put the game out of reach. I think it's reasonable to criticize him for getting 24 early points and then being content to run run run run and maybe pass on third down.
3) Brady was unstoppable until the game was on the line? Are you kidding? The game wasn't on the line when it was 24-0? Or 24-7? Or 24-14? Or 24-21? Did he take the foot off the pedal at 28-24? Nope, he led them on another field goal drive. So if I understand it correctly, you believe that there are Patriots fans who have criticized Manning for leading five scoring drives (four for touchdowns) in the second half of a game? Can you show me some examples of that criticism? I think you're building a pretty weak strawman here.
4) What people "usually pile on him for" is that Manning often makes critical, individual mistakes in big games. In his first playoff game, Manning led his team to zero points. In 2003 he threw four picks. In 2004 he led the Colts to 3 points after setting an NFL record for TD passes that year. In 2005 he lost to the Steelers three times, throwing an INT to Polamalu, got a call the NFL later admitted was wrong, then went three and out including a horrible sack, then got bailed out by a Bettis goal line fumble, and still managed to screw up the end game by throwing a deep ball instead of getting into field goal range. In 2006, his team dragged him to a Superbowl while he threw 7 interceptions against just 3 TDs. They went back to the Superbowl, where he threw a game ending pick six. In his playoff game last year, he threw a game killing interception in overtime. Those are individual mistakes attributable to the quarterback, and they've happened often enough that they are no longer anomalies.
5) The final score of the game wasn't decided by Manning or Brady, and I don't think anyone blames Manning for failing to score in overtime any more than they blame Brady for the same. The reason people laud Brady isn't because he won the game, but because he led the team to 31 straight points in the largest comeback in team history on a nationally televised game in miserable conditions against his biggest rival. Points 31 to 34 were just the icing on the cake. If he'd lost on a kick return TD, people would still correctly have said Brady had a hell of a game, he almost came back, and they would correctly have said that Manning had a subpar game but did just enough to keep them in there. But that's the thing - Manning had so many opportunities to actually try to score, and he didn't even try. It's not the fact that he only had150 yards, it's the fact that once they got up, he didn't seriously try to pass the ball until they were down 31-24 in the fourth quarter. The fact that he led them on a TD drive is simultaneously a credit to his ability, and an indictment of his decision making, because if he was capable of doing that, why didn't he even try to do it when the Patriots were starting to mount their comeback? Why not step on the Patriots throat? Sure, if he'd thrown an interception, he'd have gotten blasted. But that doesn't mean he deserves credit for refusing to try.
6) The closest thing to this game that Manning has ever had was at the end of the 2006 AFC Championship game, when the Colts were getting blown out 21-6 in the first half, including two turnovers for touchdowns. The Patriots secondary had multiple in-game injuries, and Manning led a huge, 32 to 13 comeback to win 38-34 for the right to go to the Superbowl. I posted that night that that was the best half of football I'd ever seen Manning play. It's considered his greatest postseason accomplishment. But Brady didn't sit on his thumbs during that comeback. He threw for 232 and a TD, threw a go ahead touchdown pass to Jabar Gaffney when it was tied 21-21 to make it 28-21, led them on a field goal drive to break the ensuing 28-28 tie, then led them on yet another field goal drive to break the ensuing 31-31 tie. The Patriots led that game 34-31 with 1:42 left in the game, but lost when Addai ran in the final touchdown. Brady wasn't criticized for running the clock out because he didn't. He fought tooth and nail against the comeback and Manning outduelled him in the second half. It is entirely valid to criticize Manning for his decision making in Sunday's game because he didn't have Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell as his primary receivers, he had DeMaryius Thomas, Wes Welker and Eric Decker, and he kept audibling to runs and hoping that the game would end.
7) Another straw man. I don't know who is saying that Denver wouldn't have been in the game if it weren't for the fumbles, but you're responding to my post, and I know I didn't say it. The reality is that both Manning and Brady had a turnover - Manning threw an interception and Brady had a fumble. And Brady's was an inexcusable mistake. Not only did he watch the air let out of the stadium when Ridley fumbled, and it was run back for a touchdown, but then Brady came back and fumbled himself, But wait - not only that, but the following drive, Blount was knocked out and dropped the ball, and then guess what? Brady bounces the ball off the grass and has to pick it up again to keep from having yet another fumble. Absolutely horrid first half play - not just by "the team", but by Brady himself. The reason people are saying Brady outplayed Manning is that he then went on to lead the Patriots to 31 straight points in the second half to take a 31-24 lead. That's incredible. The fact that the Broncos fumbled the ball in the second half and overtime doesn't change that. It doesn't make Manning's decision to keep audibling to running plays any better. That's results oriented thinking. Brady made mistakes early but played nearly perfect football in the second half to mount a historic comeback. Manning benefitted from those early mistakes, watched the comeback happen, and responded with a game tying touchdown drive. That's not bad. It's just not great. We're talking about Peyton Manning here. He's supposed to be great. But he took himself out of the game by calling run after run. Think about that for a minute. He was clearly capable of throwing against pass-heavy coverage, because he did it. If he'd led one more scoring drive at any point in the game, it would have been out of reach. But he CHOSE to keep running the ball because the Patriots coverage dictated that that's what he should do. If you're a Manning fan, or a Broncos fan, or just a football fan, that doesn't infuriate you?
moleculo
Footballguy
In last night's game, both teams had:
- two long TD drives (70 & 80 for NE, 65 & 80 for Denver)
- one TD coming off of a short field caused by a RB bumble (fumble returned for TD by Miller, 32 yard drive after the Ball fumble)
- one TD coming off of the opposing QB's turnover (Brady's sack led to 10 yard drive by Broncos, Mannings int led to 32 yard drive by NE)
- one FG on 34-35 yard drives
- 3 total turnovers (not counting the meaningless Holliday muff with 0:05 left in 1st half as this was essentially meaningless)
- two punts in OT
- key personnel being injured, allowing opposing offense to pick on a particular area of weakness (i.e. no Mayo/Wilfork = run it up the gut. No DRC = throw at the rookie)
moleculo
Footballguy
you mention results-oriented thinking, yet criticize Manning for not stepping on the Patriots throat. What do you think would have happened had Ball not fumbled? Prior to that play, Broncos had gained 30 yards in 5 plays, all on the ground. Pounding the rock in poor weather conditions to keep Brady off the field is conventional wisdom at that point, and that's what I would want him doing as long as it was working. The score was 24-7 at that point, by the way.
After the Bell fumble and the Pats ensuing short-field TD, Broncos were no longer nursing a 24 point lead, they were nursing a 10 point lead. They ran once, threw twice, ran twice and threw once - failing to convert and had to punt. Not exactly sitting on it.
Next possession, now up by a FG only, broncos ran twice, threw once. That throw was picked. I kind of wish they kept running it there.
next possession, down by 4, it was a run, two passes and a punt.
next possession, down by 10, it went like this: run, pass, run, pass, pass, pass, pass, run, pass, pass, pass. I guess this is where things opened up.
So - put it all together and there really was only one drive in the 2nd half that was way skewed in terms of the run/pass ratio - the drive that Broncos were killin' it on the ground before the fumble (which was on a pass, by the way). Framed that way, maybe the Broncos should have actually run the ball more.
ETA: no part of the above is meant as a slight to the great Tom Brady, and by no means am I saying he didn't outplay Manning on Sunday, I think Brady is a significant better cold-weather QB than Manning.
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moleculo
Footballguy
back on topic - I don't think Manning sniffs the TD record. This offense is attempting to transform into ball-control, ground-game, in preparation for playoff football. The passing attack will come back as needed, but I think the Broncos now want to win on the ground.
it's probably a smart play too - look at the run defenses of likely AFC playoff teams:
KC: allowing 4.6 YPC (28th)
NE: allowing 4.5 YPC (26th)
IND: allowing 4.4 YPC (25th)
CIN: allowing 4.0 YPC (12th)
TEN: allowing 4.1 YPC (16th)
Cincy is ok, but it's not clear the effect of no Geno will have on their run D. Beyond them, everyone else in the playoff field has a below NFL average run D.
it's probably a smart play too - look at the run defenses of likely AFC playoff teams:
KC: allowing 4.6 YPC (28th)
NE: allowing 4.5 YPC (26th)
IND: allowing 4.4 YPC (25th)
CIN: allowing 4.0 YPC (12th)
TEN: allowing 4.1 YPC (16th)
Cincy is ok, but it's not clear the effect of no Geno will have on their run D. Beyond them, everyone else in the playoff field has a below NFL average run D.
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