Will the Pats Scandal Tarnish (1 Viewer)

[Billy Ball Thorton]

In the same manner in which Barry Bonds is judged?

Just curious how secere people look at this. Will there now be an * by thier SB Wins?

 

[#@%&$!?]

This needs to be a pole.

 

[Borat]

Only to Colts fans, and maybe a few Steelers fans.

 

[-jb-]

Of course not.

Your pal,

Barry*

 

[Phlash]

They didn't get caught until LAST YEAR against GREEN BAY.

Thats the first that they've ever been accused of cheating. EVER.

If anything, that Superbowl against Carolina was more impressive considering they were going up against the 'roided Panthers that year.

 

[NYCGangGreen]

I dunno....how often does a 7th round draft pick lead teams to Superbowl wins??? haha.....

In all seriousness, no I feel that they won thos rings "legally"!

Do I still dislike the franchise? Yes!!

Do I enjoy the fact that they torched my team Sunday??? No!!

But watching BB squirm and try to talk his way out of this should be fun.....so I sit and wait eagerly to see that swine manage to spin this.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

You can't take it away from them, but I think they'll lose the respect they had built up. Personally, I had never seen a luckier, flukier run to a bowl than their first one. I can vividly recall thinking they were an 0-16 team that year when they started 0-2 and looked just amazingly bad doing so. Brady became easy to root for, but the Raiders loss was bogus, you had the Vintieri miracle, and I think the Rams win that bowl 9 times out of 10. Amazing run of luck.

But then you start to see the same luck over and over again, and you realize, you can't CONSTANTLY be lucky. We all need breaks on our teams and in life, but you have to be in the situation for luck to works its wonder on you, and for me personally, with their 3rd bowl, I had no choice but to acknowledge the specialness of this team.

Today, thats in a bit of a cloud for me. Look, I don't know how common or prevalent this form of esponiage is, and you still have to execute the game plan. 65 Toss Power Trap worked pretty well despite the book on it. Its right there with the Bonds and McGwire thing. It's still an accomplishment, but its the sort of thing puts that achievement in a vaccum. The record stands, but you don't quite put on the level of Aaron and Maris, and nor woudl I put these guys up there with the 70's Steelers, the 80's Niners and the early 90's Cowboys. They are apart from them now, will they stay that way, time will tell. If I'm a Raiders fan, a Rams fan, a Panthers fan, a Steelers fan, a Chargers fan, I'm really angry. Because you have to believe the potential exists that you lost a Super Bowl or a real good shot at winning one to a team that wasn't on the level.

We often disect the ethics of these things in baseball, well if you know player A was cheating, but think player B was cheating, how do you evaluate, etc, with regard to a lot of variables beyond roids(corked bats, doctored balls). The argument "everyone does it" doesn't hold water though, here any more than it did with regard to Nixon and Watergate. I don't think the Pats were inherently the most talented or best team in those super bowl years, but you are what you are, and what they are is Super Bowl champions. But here, if 31 other teams are stealing signs, they are not caught, they are not cheaters, the Pats are stealing and they are what they are.

More than anything though, this really puts a crimp in Belichick's legacy. Because more than even Brady, I had really equated him with this incredible run, and while maybe not at that Lombardi/Walsh/Laundry/Knoll level yet, he was still active and still had a chance to gain on them. He was close to that elite level, but now thats gone and I think its gone for good. I can't see any of those first four doing something so petty. Maybe they did, but I've never heard anything of the such. He is out of that club and out for good. He's only hurt himself in being found out because I think he robbed his own legacy.

The sick thing is, like Nixon and Watergate, the great irony is, he probably didn't need to do this. Belichick was a failure in Cleveland, but his clear abilty to scheme goes back to his days as an assistant and his role in building the Parcells legend. The Pats might have won any and all of these games without that knowledge, but we'll never know and he's cast a pall on his own legacy.

A lot of questions need to be answered here. How was this information implemented? Players would have had to have known, they should not escape sanction, but you have to think everyone didn't know, because how could work of this not leaked? Maybe it went only as far as Brady directing the protection, maybe it was more widespread, who knows. But I'll say this, you start banging these guys a game check or a 4 game suspension if they are nabbed, that's one way to clean in up in house.

 

[mulehead]

I don't see why this should tarnish the Pats reputation. My guess is that this type of thing frequently occurs in sports more often than not. It just happens to be the Patriots that are brought to the center of attention this time around.

 

[thehornet]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

 

[LGOA]

***

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

How do you know?Do you not at the bare minimum penalize their arrogance/stupidity, in light of last years direct questioning and accustations regarding this practice?

 

[Smack Tripper]

I don't see why this should tarnish the Pats reputation. My guess is that this type of thing frequently occurs in sports more often than not. It just happens to be the Patriots that are brought to the center of attention this time around.

Why would you guess that?

 

[LHUCKS]

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It already has.

Just go around and talk to a bunch of non-Pat fans.

They already lost the ability to be in the conversation of the greatest ever. Not sure just how far it will go.

 

[stevegamer]

It pretty much has to tarnish it, at least just a little. When someon is found to be cheating (and the video supposedly confirms the accusation) it tarnishes your reputation. Period.

 

[phthalatemagic]

From what we know right now? No, not even close.

 

[The Jerk]

It's simply a natural reaction to this story to wonder:

1. How long has this specific practice been in place?

2. What else might have been going on during their SB years?

Most likely, they gained very little or even no advantage during most if not all of those games; but now you can't be entirely sure.

It's a shame for Pats fans, but the only ones they can blame are members of their own organization. They brought this on themselves.

Edit to add: Just to be clear, unless there is a revelation from those seasons, however, any "tarnishing" will be minor. I don't think too many people think of the 49ers or Broncos 1990s titles as tarnished, despite the salary cap manipulations that were punished by the league.

 

[HellToupee]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

Do you not at the bare minimum penalize their arrogance/stupidity, in light of last years direct questioning and accustations regarding this practice?

Yes you have to punish them for being caught

 

[((Morpheus))]

 

[TinHat]

Yes

And, I still believe that the ball that Viniatieri kicked to beat the Titans was doctored somehow.

oh yeah, and "Tuck Rule."

 

[[icon]]

You can't take it away from them, but I think they'll lose the respect they had built up. Personally, I had never seen a luckier, flukier run to a bowl than their first one. I can vividly recall thinking they were an 0-16 team that year when they started 0-2 and looked just amazingly bad doing so. Brady became easy to root for, but the Raiders loss was bogus, you had the Vintieri miracle, and I think the Rams win that bowl 9 times out of 10. Amazing run of luck. But then you start to see the same luck over and over again, and you realize, you can't CONSTANTLY be lucky. We all need breaks on our teams and in life, but you have to be in the situation for luck to works its wonder on you, and for me personally, with their 3rd bowl, I had no choice but to acknowledge the specialness of this team. Today, thats in a bit of a cloud for me. Look, I don't know how common or prevalent this form of esponiage is, and you still have to execute the game plan. 65 Toss Power Trap worked pretty well despite the book on it. Its right there with the Bonds and McGwire thing. It's still an accomplishment, but its the sort of thing puts that achievement in a vaccum. The record stands, but you don't quite put on the level of Aaron and Maris, and nor woudl I put these guys up there with the 70's Steelers, the 80's Niners and the early 90's Cowboys. They are apart from them now, will they stay that way, time will tell. If I'm a Raiders fan, a Rams fan, a Panthers fan, a Steelers fan, a Chargers fan, I'm really angry. Because you have to believe the potential exists that you lost a Super Bowl or a real good shot at winning one to a team that wasn't on the level.We often disect the ethics of these things in baseball, well if you know player A was cheating, but think player B was cheating, how do you evaluate, etc, with regard to a lot of variables beyond roids(corked bats, doctored balls). The argument "everyone does it" doesn't hold water though, here any more than it did with regard to Nixon and Watergate. I don't think the Pats were inherently the most talented or best team in those super bowl years, but you are what you are, and what they are is Super Bowl champions. But here, if 31 other teams are stealing signs, they are not caught, they are not cheaters, the Pats and and they are what they are. More than anything though, this really puts a crimp in Belichick's legacy. Because more than even Brady, I had really equated him with this incredible run, and while maybe not at that Lombardi/Walsh/Laundry/Knoll level yet, he was still active and still had a chance to gain on them. He was close to that elite level, but now thats gone and I think its gone for good. I can't see any of those first four doing something so petty. Maybe they did, but I've never heard anything of the such. He is out of that club and out for good. He's only hurt himself in being found out because I think he robbed his own legacy. The sick thing is, like Nixon and Watergate, the great irony is, he probably didn't need to do this. Belichick was a failure in Cleveland, but his clear abilty to scheme goes back to his days as an assistant and his role in building the Parcells legend. The Pats might have won any and all of these games without that knowledge, but we'll never know and he's cast a pall on his own legacy. A lot of questions need to be answered here. How was this information implemented? Players would have had to have known, they should not escape sanction, but you have to think everyone didn't know, because how could work of this not leaked? Maybe it went only as far as Brady directing the protection, maybe it was more widespread, who knows. But I'll say this, you start banging these guys a game check or a 4 game suspension if they are nabbed, that's one way to clean in up in house.

 

[[icon]]

 

[Skeetcher]

This post from prymetyme25 in the goodell thread sums it up pretty well.....

I'm not a fan nor a hater but:I've always thought that the year the Pats beat the Rams, 1) the rams were clearly the better team. 2) It just seemed to be too fitting that The Patriots won with the Patriots (fighters and 9/11) just too much going there. 3) They shut down the "Freaking Rams". I never believed that Super Bowl and never win.But then they started winning all the time and then I rethought the situation. But now with with story you have to think back.Colts for like 4 years (they always kinda knew what Peyton was doing)San Diego (WOW nobody stop LT2, nobody)

Couple this with the pre-scandal comments from Al Harris and Kerry Rhodes about the Patriots seemingly knowing what their calls were prior to the play(s) and how can it not cast a huge doubt over the legitimacy of their achievments... ?

 

[phthalatemagic]

And, I still believe that the ball that Viniatieri kicked to beat the Titans was doctored somehow

I never read that. What's that about?

 

[stanmarino13]

Broncos got caught cheating(wasnt stealing signals) during their super bowl years and had to surrender a draft pick years later...Nobody tarnished their titles....

 

[cantrell]

Makes me wonder how easily this could have changed history. All the SB's were won by 3 points, so a signal here or there and we have a competely different story the last few years.

 

[lordofgun]

Makes me wonder how easily this could have changed history. All the SB's were won by 3 points, so a signal here or there and we have a competely different story the last few years.

 

[BGP]

Broncos got caught cheating(wasnt stealing signals) during their super bowl years and had to surrender a draft pick years later...Nobody tarnished their titles....

I believe the Broncos teams were accused of + their OL chop blocking.

+ their OL sliming their jerseys with a greasy substance that was illegal to make it harder on the defense.

+ Bill Romanowski roiding up.

+ Broncos were cheating the salary cap

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Sep17.html

In December 2001, the Broncos were fined $968,000 and lost a third-round pick in the 2002 draft for violations reportedly relating to $29 million in deferred payments to quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis. On Thursday, the league announced that the Broncos have been fined $950,000 and will lose a third-round selection in next year's draft for circumventing the salary cap between 1996 and '98

Off the top of my head.

 

[Symbius]

I don't know if tarnish is how I feel about it all.

I do, however, think it brings Brady into question.

How much of his success is because they knew just what plays to call?? Can Brady even QB at an elite level without this type of "help"??

I already thought Belichick was a complete piece of scum, but I really believed in Brady. Now I question that...

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Makes me wonder how easily this could have changed history. All the SB's were won by 3 points, so a signal here or there and we have a competely different story the last few years.

Man, that is honestly dizzying when you put it in that perspective. Don't forget the squeaker past Oakland too.I mean, that Oakland team was ticketed for a title that year, they were just cranking and had to put up with that whole tuck crap too, and to think your window as a fan closes because these guys might have been not on the level.

 

[BGP]

The question is: is it worth cheating and winning the super bowl 2x if all that happens to you is you lose a third round pick a few years later? Probably it is worth it. Hell, everyone has forgotten about that. They don't call for Elway and TD to return those rings. So it should be ok for Belichick to cheat, eh?

 

[Reaper]

Makes me wonder how easily this could have changed history. All the SB's were won by 3 points, so a signal here or there and we have a competely different story the last few years.

Without those calls.... Were they ever as "Lucky" as they were?

 

[stanmarino13]

I think any team in the league would cheat to win 2 superbowls if the penalty is a 3rd rounder years later...Its a no brainer

 

[BGP]

A fairly common form of corruption is a sort of "false policing". For example, a company may hire secret shoppers to evaluate their product on the market, and then tout the fact that they do this to consumers as proof they are working to improve service. In reality, the stores are alerted as to when the secret shoppers are coming, and what exactly they will purchase. The end result is the few that do care about "cheating" are fed a story that the company is fighting corruption, meanwhile they are ensuring everyone is tipped off as to when the checks are coming.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar thing going on in the NFL. They check for drugs but giant loopholes are left in the system on purpose. They just want to do enough to claim they are fighting corruption, but don't really care all that much.

At most, there might be a slight crackdown on camera work out of this, but the NFL will probably get lax about it quickly and no one will care.

 

[Sea Bass]

Tarnish is a harsh word. If a video-less Pats offense has a similar dropoff as a roid-less Giambi it could make one wonder..........

 

[The Jerk]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will be not so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so, but the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

 

[BGP]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

 

[The Jerk]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

 

[jagermeisters]

Brady is a third rate passer without knowing what the defense is going to do. Besides that, my girlfriend loves him and drafted him in the second round, only waiting till then because of Marvin Harrison.....yes she is an Indy Homer who loves the Pats. I just don't know what to do with her. At least I know who she's going after in the draft. I'm hoping that since she is a moral fan, she can find fault in the Pats and come back to the real world where the Pats are evil.

edit: as much as i hate brady, he is an HOF'er for sure, despite allegations of espionage.

 

[PatytonsGhost]

There is a lot of $$$ and fame out there to gain by winning so

(winning+$$$ = people willing to cheat the system).

Simple question, Simple answer, YES.

Refs are cheating, players are cheating, Teams are cheating,

These are all interchangable between the 3 main sports.

Its hard to be trusting and in awe of any accomplishment anymore.. It is sad really

 

[jon_mx]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

 

[BGP]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

What is the difference again? Did it tarnish John Elway's legacy for being a party to it? Did it tarnish the Broncos' organization? Do people look at the Broncos owner and say "yah, we know him as the cheater". No. No people don't say that at all.

 

[The Jerk]

Its hard to be trusting and in awe of any accomplishment anymore.. It is sad really

It's depressing to be a sports fan. Ignorance is bliss on these topics, but once you know that it can happen in one situation, a part of you suspects it in every situation.

 

[SteelersFan4Ever]

I think it is going to depend on how long it's been going on. Every second of an NFL game is on video dating back many many years. How hard do you think it will be for the NFL to back and look at every game tape from the past few years and look to see if that cameraman is seen on tape? If he was the same cameraman caught in GB chances are that guy has been doing it for them more than once (would make sense to use the same guy to limit exposure considering they knew what they were doing was wrong), and it will be easy to see if the Pats are lying. If there is ample evidence that this practice has been going on for awhile, I think that there will definitely be an * next to their SB wins, at least in the minds of every NFL fan outside of NE (not just us whiny Colt/Steelers/Jets fans .

 

[BGP]

Its hard to be trusting and in awe of any accomplishment anymore.. It is sad really

It's depressing to be a sports fan. Ignorance is bliss on these topics, but once you know that it can happen in one situation, a part of you suspects it in every situation.

Ultimately you have to hold management accountable. You can only have bad behavior going on for so long before the fault has to be laid at the feet of those with the power to stop it but fail to do so.

 

[The Jerk]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

What is the difference again? Did it tarnish John Elway's legacy for being a party to it? Did it tarnish the Broncos' organization? Do people look at the Broncos owner and say "yah, we know him as the cheater". No. No people don't say that at all.

Actually, some people do, and specifically many of the posters on these forums tonight.What part of "may be" are you having trouble understanding? We don't know the scope of this situation, nor what will happen on and off the field in the next season or two. If the Patriots maintain their performance and nothing else surfaces, Belichick's reputation as a genius will be mostly intact to all but the diehard anti-NE crowd. If the Patriots slide and/or other revelations occur, then his entire reputation could be sullied.I'm not a psychic or fortune-teller, but I maintain that this is more about Belichick's legacy than SB championships being tainted. That's my opinion. You don't have to agree.

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

So since we now have proof that the Pats cheated to win those Super Bowls (and not because they were a team), can we go back to introducing units at the Super Bowl ?

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

What is the difference again? Did it tarnish John Elway's legacy for being a party to it? Did it tarnish the Broncos' organization? Do people look at the Broncos owner and say "yah, we know him as the cheater". No. No people don't say that at all.

Perception is everything. Denver, while reprehensible, is much more in the realm of gamesmanship. They were punished, deservedly so, but the reason people don't attach a negative is stuff between the lines is seen as being part of the game, the Romo thing, well lets open up that can of worms as to who was on gas, and the salary cap issues, I think people can reconcile to creative accounting. The technology is part of the perception in the eyes of the masses. I talked before in another thread about looking like this as misdameanors and felonies as far as a contrast for these transgressions. Its a matter of what enforceable, and when as well. People have always looked kindly on Gaylord Perry in baseball, got him to the Hall of Fame even, despite being an open and avowed doctor of baseballs. But if it makes any sense, the onus was on the in-game enforcement. If he were caught doctoring, he would have been tossed and suspended. Bronco cut blocks, greased up jerseys, well if the officials missed it, they missed it, it happens. I think technology scares people because of its invisibility. If Clemens is found to have juiced with the undetctable HGH, he certainly won't be seen as fondly as Gaylord Perry. You say no one condemns the Broncos, but what do you think Barry Bonds' legacy is? I'll admit is a murky area to weed out what cheating is ok and what isn't, but to bring it back home, perception is everything. Some things are percieved to be more ok. Using a camera and/or monkeying or intercepting radio signals is just seen differently than a greased up jersey.

 

[jonessed]

It's going to depend on what comes out. Noone knows the extent of the cheating or how long they had been doing it. It has a much greater chance of tarnishing BBs legacy than the whole Patriots organization.

 

[Reaper]

Tarnish is a harsh word. If a video-less Pats offense has a similar dropoff as a roid-less Giambi it could make one wonder..........

Giambi is tarnished too.