World's Greatest Draft (4 Viewers)

[Ozymandias]

For Andy Dufresne at 3:16

HEINRICH HIMMLER

villain

 

[Ozymandias]

Himmler is a good pick. A real nasty. Or natsy. either will do.

 

[timschochet]

For Andy Dufresne at 3:16

HEINRICH HIMMLER

villain

Interesting Head of the SS, certainly a bad bad man. Probably deserving to be on the list somewhere. But after Hitler, I'm not even sure he's the #2 Nazi villain. Plus, there are so many other villains throughout history to consider...I don't consider this a very good third round selection, sorry.

 

[Abrantes]

No time for writeup, will do later:Niccolò Machiavelli - Intellectual

####.Thatguy is a devious sonovagun with his sniper rifle. #1 intellectual, if you ask me. But it was gonna be MY #1 intellectual.

 

[thatguy]

I do have a devious plan, Tim... It's to draft guy's who were awesome. The guy was so far ahead of his time when it comes to rational political thought.

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) is the philosopher, writer, and Italian politician considered the founder of modern political science. As a Renaissance Man, he was a diplomat, political philosopher, musician, poet, and playwright, but, foremost, he was a Civil Servant of the Florentine Republic. In June of 1498, after the ouster and execution of Girolamo Savonarola, the Great Council elected Niccolò Machiavelli as Secretary to the second Chancery of the Republic of Florence. [1]

Like Leonardo, Machiavelli is considered a typical example of the Renaissance Man. He is most famous for a short political treatise, The Prince, a work of realist political theory, however, both it and the more substantive republican Discourses on Livy went unpublished until the 1530s — after Machiavelli's death. Although he privately circulated The Prince among friends, the only work he published in his life was The Art of War, about high-military science. Since the sixteenth century, generations of politicians remain attracted and repelled by the cynical (realist) approach to power exposited in The Prince, the Discourses, and the History. [2]. Whatever his personal intentions (still debated today), his surname yielded the modern political words “Macchiavelli” (a person of acute and scheming intelligence) and Machiavellianism (the use of cunning and deceit in politics or generally).

Il Principe

The Prince's contribution to the history of political thought is the fundamental break between political Realism and political Idealism. Niccolò Machiavelli’s best-known book exposits and describes the arts with which a ruling Prince can maintain control of his realm. It concentrates on the New Prince, under the presumption that an Hereditary Prince has an easier task in ruling, since the people are accustomed to him. To retain power, the Hereditary Prince must carefully maintain the socio-political institutions to which the people are accustomed; whereas the New Prince has the more difficult task in ruling, since he must first stabilize his new-found power in order to build an enduring political structure. That requires the Prince being a public figure above reproach, whilst privately acting immorally to achieve State goals. The examples are those princes who most successfully obtain and maintain power, drawn from his observations as a Florentine diplomat, and his ancient history readings; thus, the Latin phrases and Classic examples.

The Prince does not dismiss morality, instead, it politically defines “Morality” — as in the criteria for acceptable cruel action — it must be decisive: swift, effective, and short-lived. Machiavelli is aware of the irony of good results coming from evil actions; notwithstanding some mitigating themes, the Catholic Church proscribed The Prince, registering it to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. As a treatise, its primary intellectual contribution to the history of political thought is the fundamental break between political Realism and political Idealism — thus, The Prince is a manual to acquiring and keeping political power. In contrast with Plato and Aristotle, a Classical ideal society is not the aim of the Prince’s will to power. As a political scientist, Machiavelli emphasises necessary, methodic exercise of brute force punishment-and-reward (patronage, clientelism, et cetera) to preserve the status quo.

Etymologically, his sixteenth-century contemporaries adopted and used the adjective Machiavellian (elaborately cunning), often in the introductions of political tracts offering more than government by “Reasons of State”; while contemporary, pejorative usage of Machiavellian (anti-Machiavellism in the 16th C.) is a misnomer describing someone who deceives and manipulates others for gain; (personal or not, the gain is immaterial, only action matters, insofar as it effects results). The Prince hasn’t the moderating themes of his other works; politically, “Machiavelli” denotes someone of politically-extreme perspective;[8] however Machiavellianism remains a popular speech and journalism usage; while in psychology, it denotes a personality type.

Discorsi

The Discourse on the First Ten Books of Titus Livy comprises the early history of Rome, it is a series of lessons on how a republic should be started and structured, including the concept of checks and balances, the strength of a tri-partite political structure, and the superiority of a republic over a principality.

From The Discourses:

* “In fact, when there is combined under the same constitution a prince, a nobility, and the power of the people, then these three powers will watch and keep each other reciprocally in check”. Book I, Chapter II

* “Doubtless these means [of attaining power] are cruel and destructive of all civilized life, and neither Christian, nor even human, and should be avoided by every one. In fact, the life of a private citizen would be preferable to that of a king at the expense of the ruin of so many human beings”. Book I, Chapter XXVI

* “Now, in a well-ordered republic, it should never be necessary to resort to extra-constitutional measures. . . . ” Book I, Chapter XXXIV

* “. . . the governments of the people are better than those of princes”. Book I, Chapter LVIII

* “. . . if we compare the faults of a people with those of princes, as well as their respective good qualities, we shall find the people vastly superior in all that is good and glorious”. Book I, Chapter LVIII

* “For government consists mainly in so keeping your subjects that they shall be neither able, nor disposed to injure you. . . . ” Book II, Chapter XXIII

* “. . . no prince is ever benefited by making himself hated”. Book III, Chapter XIX

* “Let not princes complain of the faults committed by the people subjected to their authority, for they result entirely from their own negligence or bad example”. Book III, Chapter XXIX

Revival of interest in the 19th and 20th centuries

Despite remaining a politically-influential writer in the 17th and 18th centuries, it was the 19th and 20th centuries that rediscovered his political science for its intellectual and practical applications. The most reliable guide to this renewed interest is the Introduction to the 1953 (Mentor Books) edition of Il Principe, wherein, Christian Gauss, the Dean of Princeton University, discusses, with pertinent historical context, the commentaries on The Prince made by the German historians Ranke (19th c.) and Meineke (20th c.), the Briton Lord Acton, and others. Citing the consensus that Machiavelli was the first political theorist with a practical, scientific approach to statecraft, considering him “the first Modern Man”. The commentators view the political scientist Niccolò Machiavelli positively — because he viewed the world realistically, thus, such statecraft leads to (generally) constructive results.

 

[Ozymandias]

For Andy Dufresne at 3:16

HEINRICH HIMMLER

villain

Interesting Head of the SS, certainly a bad bad man. Probably deserving to be on the list somewhere. But after Hitler, I'm not even sure he's the #2 Nazi villain. Plus, there are so many other villains throughout history to consider...I don't consider this a very good third round selection, sorry.

I disagree with you. Of the monstrous evil that was Nazi Germany, this guy was the hammer."Heinrich Luitpold Himmler October 7, 1900 – May 23, 1945) was a Nazi German politician and head of the Schutzstaffel (SS). He was the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany, after Adolf Hitler. As Reichsführer-SS he oversaw all police and security forces, including the Gestapo.

As overseer of concentration camps, extermination camps, and Einsatzgruppen (literally: task forces, often used as killing squads), Himmler coordinated the killing of millions of Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Roma,[1][2] many prisoners of war, and possibly another three to four million Poles, communists, or other groups whom the Nazis deemed unworthy to live or simply 'in the way', which included homosexuals and those with physical and mental disabilities.

 

[thatguy]

No time for writeup, will do later:Niccolò Machiavelli - Intellectual

####.Thatguy is a devious sonovagun with his sniper rifle. #1 intellectual, if you ask me. But it was gonna be MY #1 intellectual.

Sorry. You also wanted Tolstoy, yeah? Double sorry.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Stop looking at my list!

 

[HERBERT THE HIPPO]

3.17 MOSES

Along with God, it is the figure of Moses (Moshe) who dominates the Torah. Acting at God's behest, it is he who leads the Jews out of slavery, unleashes the Ten Plagues against Egypt, guides the freed slaves for forty years in the wilderness, carries down the law from Mount Sinai, and prepares the Jews to enter the land of Canaan. Without Moses, there would be little apart from laws to write about in the last four books of the Torah.

Moses is born during the Jewish enslavement in Egypt, during a terrible period when Pharaoh decrees that all male Hebrew infants are to be drowned at birth. His mother, Yocheved, desperate to prolong his life, floats him in a basket in the Nile. Hearing the crying child as she walks by, Pharaoh's daughter pities the crying infant and adopts him (Exodus 2:1-10). It surely is no coincidence that the Jews' future liberator is raised as an Egyptian prince. Had Moses grown up in slavery with his fellow Hebrews, he probably would not have developed the pride, vision, and courage to lead a revolt.

The Torah records only three incidents in Moses' life before God appoints him a prophet. As a young man, outraged at seeing an Egyptian overseer beating a Jewish slave, he kills the overseer. The next day, he tries to make peace between two Hebrews who are fighting, but the aggressor takes umbrage and says: "Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?" Moses immediately understands that he is in danger, for though his high status undoubtedly would protect him from punishment for the murder of a mere overseer, the fact that he killed the man for carrying out his duties to Pharaoh would brand him a rebel against the king. Indeed, Pharaoh orders Moses killed, and he flees to Midian. At this point, Moses probably wants nothing more than a peaceful interlude, but immediately he finds himself in another fight. The seven daughters of the Midianite priest Reuel (also called Jethro) are being abused by the Midianite male shepherds, and Moses rises to their defense (Exodus 2:11-22).

The incidents are of course related. In all three, Moses shows a deep, almost obsessive commitment to fighting injustice. Furthermore, his concerns are not parochial. He intervenes when a non-Jew oppresses a Jew, when two Jews fight, and when non-Jews oppress other non-Jews.

Moses marries Tzipporah, one of the Midianite priest's daughters, and becomes the shepherd for his father-in-law's flock. On one occasion, when he has gone with his flock into the wilderness, an angel of the Lord appears to him in the guise of a bush that is burning but is not consumed (see next entry). The symbolism of the miracle is powerful. In a world in which nature itself is worshiped, God shows that He rules over it.

Once He has so effectively elicited Moses' attention, God commands-over Moses' strenuous objections-that he go to Egypt and along with his brother, Aaron, make one simple if revolutionary demand of Pharaoh: "Let my people go." Pharaoh resists Moses' petition, until God wreaks the Ten Plagues on Egypt, after which the children of Israel escape.

Months later, in the Sinai Desert, Moses climbs Mount Sinai and comes down with the Ten Commandments, only to discover the Israelites engaged in an orgy and worshiping a Golden Calf. The episode is paradigmatic: Only at the very moment God or Moses is doing something for them are they loyal believers. The instant God's or Moses' presence is not manifest, the children of Israel revert to amoral, immoral, and sometimes idolatrous behavior. Like a true parent, Moses rages at the Jews when they sin, but he never turns against them-even when God does. To God's wrathful declaration on one occasion that He will blot out the Jews and make of Moses a new nation, he answers, "Then blot me out too" (Exodus 32:32).

The law that Moses transmits to the Jews in the Torah embraces far more than the Ten Commandments. In addition to many ritual regulations. the Jews are instructed to love God as well as be in awe of Him, to love their neighbors as themselves, and to love the stranger-that is, the non-Jew living among them-as themselves as well.

The saddest event in Moses' life might well be God's prohibiting him from entering the land of Israel. The reason for this ban is explicitly connected to an episode in Numbers in which the Hebrews angrily demand that Moses supply them with water. God commands Moses to assemble the community, "and before their very eyes order the [nearby] rock to yield its water." Fed up with the Hebrews' constant whining and complaining, he says to them instead: "Listen, you rebels, shall we get water for you out of this rock?" He then strikes the rock twice with his rod, and water gushes out (Numbers 20:2-13). It is this episode of disobedience, striking the rock instead of speaking to it, that is generally offered as the explanation for why God punishes Moses and forbids him to enter Israel. The punishment, however, seems so disproportionate to the offense, that the real reason for God's prohibition must go deeper. Most probably, as Dr. Jacob Milgrom, professor of Bible at the University of California, Berkeley, has suggested (elaborating on earlier comments of Rabbi Hananael, Nachmanides, and the Bekhor Shor) that Moses' sin was declaring, "Shall we get water for you out of this rock?" implying that it was he and his brother, Aaron, and not God, who were the authors of the miracle. Rabbi Irwin Kula has suggested that Moses' sin was something else altogether. Numbers 14:5 records that when ten of the twelve spies returned from Canaan and gloomily predicted that the Hebrews would never be able to conquer the land, the Israelites railed against Moses. In response, he seems to have had a mini-breakdown: "Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembled congregation of the Israelites." The two independent spies, Joshua and Caleb, both of whom rejected the majority report, took over "and exhorted the whole Israelite community" (Numbers 14:7). Later, in Deuteronomy, when Moses delivers his final summing-up to the Israelites, he refers back to this episode: "When the Lord heard your loud complaint, He was angry. He vowed: "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers, none except Caleb.... Because of you, the Lord was incensed with me too, and He said: You shall not enter it either. Joshua ... who attends you, he shall enter it" (1:34-38).

Despite these two sad episodes, Moses impressed his monotheistic vision upon the Jews with such force that in the succeeding three millennia, Jews have never confused the messenger with the Author of the message. As Princeton philosopher Walter Kaufmann has written: "in Greece, the heroes of the past were held to have been sired by a god or to have been born of a goddess ... [and] in Egypt, the Pharaoh was considered divine." But despite the extraordinary veneration accorded Moses — "there has not arisen a prophet since like Moses" is the Bible's verdict (Deuteronomy 34:10) — no Jewish thinker ever thought he was anything other than a man. See And No One Knows His Burial Place to This Day.

 

[Abrantes]

Well, I did want someone to make my choice easier, since I was torn between three people. I just kinda hoped Machiavelli wouldn't be the one taken.

Great minds think alike.

 

[timschochet]

There is no one in world history who used Machiavelli's schemes better than my #1 ranked villain, Josef Stalin. You can't help but admire the way he quietly took power away from a number of rivals, all of whom despised him, but none of whom realized the threat before it was too late. If you don't know this story, it's definitely worth a read.

 

[Abrantes]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

 

[timschochet]

For Andy Dufresne at 3:16

HEINRICH HIMMLER

villain

Interesting Head of the SS, certainly a bad bad man. Probably deserving to be on the list somewhere. But after Hitler, I'm not even sure he's the #2 Nazi villain. Plus, there are so many other villains throughout history to consider...I don't consider this a very good third round selection, sorry.

I disagree with you. Of the monstrous evil that was Nazi Germany, this guy was the hammer."Heinrich Luitpold Himmler October 7, 1900 – May 23, 1945) was a Nazi German politician and head of the Schutzstaffel (SS). He was the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany, after Adolf Hitler. As Reichsführer-SS he oversaw all police and security forces, including the Gestapo.

As overseer of concentration camps, extermination camps, and Einsatzgruppen (literally: task forces, often used as killing squads), Himmler coordinated the killing of millions of Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Roma,[1][2] many prisoners of war, and possibly another three to four million Poles, communists, or other groups whom the Nazis deemed unworthy to live or simply 'in the way', which included homosexuals and those with physical and mental disabilities.

He was the #2 most powerful guy- at times. Other people were more powerful at other times. And he is not the only one who "coordinated" the murders: without spotlighting, let's just say that there were others who had just as much or more of a hand in the coordination. I'm just not convinced Himmler is the clear #2 Nazi.

 

[thatguy]

Well, I did want someone to make my choice easier, since I was torn between three people. I just kinda hoped Machiavelli wouldn't be the one taken. Great minds think alike.

Amen Brother.

 

[timschochet]

It's about time Moses was taken. Arguably the most important figure of the three great monotheistic religions.

 

[thatguy]

I was choosing between two people. Machiavelli was less likely to make it back to me in round 4, and also represented better value.

 

[Ozymandias]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

 

[thatguy]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

As magician.

 

[timschochet]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

Are you sure? Didn't you ever see The Ten Commandments? Dude rode a mean chariot.

 

[timschochet]

The true story of Moses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE7tTT8khf0

 

[Ozymandias]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

Are you sure? Didn't you ever see The Ten Commandments? Dude rode a mean chariot.

C'mon now, Tim. I'm sure you've heard of the Thin Book: Great Jewish Athletes

 

[HERBERT THE HIPPO]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

Will go with religious figure for now.....

 

[mad sweeney]

It's about time Moses was taken. Arguably the most important figure of the three great monotheistic religions.

It was a BIG tossup between Moses and Watt last round. Only thing that swayed me was that I thought Wat might have a chance to crack the top 2 or 3 spots on body of work and Moses I figured was 3 or 4.

 

[timschochet]

Moses Rap

 

[mad sweeney]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

Are you sure? Didn't you ever see The Ten Commandments? Dude rode a mean chariot.

I thought we changed it to athlete to avoid getting race car drivers?

 

[Mixlflick1]

It's about time Moses was taken. Arguably the most important figure of the three great monotheistic religions.

It was a BIG tossup between Moses and Watt last round. Only thing that swayed me was that I thought Wat might have a chance to crack the top 2 or 3 spots on body of work and Moses I figured was 3 or 4.

I love this draft. Where else would this sentence ever have been written?

 

[Ozymandias]

3.17 MOSES

Good pick in a very top-heavy category.

As what? Leader, Religious Figure, Rebel, Celebrity? I think we can eliminate athlete.

Are you sure? Didn't you ever see The Ten Commandments? Dude rode a mean chariot.

I thought we changed it to athlete to avoid getting race car drivers?

Dang. And I was going to PM someone about Juan Manuel Fangio.

 

[timschochet]

Gotta step away for several hours. Keep up the good work, all! Will update when I return.

 

[Abrantes]

I thought we changed it to athlete to avoid getting race car drivers?

Is this right? No drivers?

 

[BobbyLayne]

3.17 MOSES

So you wanna go back to Egypt, where it's warm and secure.

Are you sorry you bought the one-way ticket when you thought you were sure?

You wanted to live in the Land of Promise, but now it's getting so hard.

Are you sorry you're out here in the desert, instead of your own backyard?

Eating leeks and onions by the Nile.

Ooh what breath, but dining out in style.

Ooh, my life's on the skids.

Give me the pyramids.

Well there's nothing to do but travel, and we sure travel a lot.

'Cause it's hard to keep your feet from moving when the sand gets so hot.

And in the morning it's manna hotcakes. We snack on manna all day.

And they sure had a winner last night for dinner, flaming manna soufflé.

Well we once complained for something new to munch.

The ground opened up and had some of us for lunch.

Ooh, such fire and smoke.

Can't God even take a joke…Huh?….(NO!)

So you wanna go back to Egypt, where old friends wait for you.

You can throw a big party and tell the whole gang, that what they said was all true.

And this Moses acts like a big-shot, who does he think he is.

It's true that God works lots of miracles, but Moses thinks they're all his.

Well I'm having so much trouble even now.

Why'd he get so mad about that cow, that golden cow.

Moses,he seems rather idle, he just sits around.

He just sits around and writes the Bible.

Oh, Moses, put down your pen.

What…Oh no, manna again?

Oh, manna waffles….

Manna burgers...

Manna bagels...

Fillet of manna...

Mannacoti...

Bamanna bread!

 

[mad sweeney]

I thought we changed it to athlete to avoid getting race car drivers?

Is this right? No drivers?

Not as athletes, unless you want to take a horse!

 

[Andy Dufresne]

For Andy Dufresne at 3:16

HEINRICH HIMMLER

villain

Interesting Head of the SS, certainly a bad bad man. Probably deserving to be on the list somewhere. But after Hitler, I'm not even sure he's the #2 Nazi villain. Plus, there are so many other villains throughout history to consider...I don't consider this a very good third round selection, sorry.

I disagree with you. Of the monstrous evil that was Nazi Germany, this guy was the hammer."Heinrich Luitpold Himmler October 7, 1900 – May 23, 1945) was a Nazi German politician and head of the Schutzstaffel (SS). He was the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany, after Adolf Hitler. As Reichsführer-SS he oversaw all police and security forces, including the Gestapo.

As overseer of concentration camps, extermination camps, and Einsatzgruppen (literally: task forces, often used as killing squads), Himmler coordinated the killing of millions of Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Roma,[1][2] many prisoners of war, and possibly another three to four million Poles, communists, or other groups whom the Nazis deemed unworthy to live or simply 'in the way', which included homosexuals and those with physical and mental disabilities.

He was the #2 most powerful guy- at times. Other people were more powerful at other times. And he is not the only one who "coordinated" the murders: without spotlighting, let's just say that there were others who had just as much or more of a hand in the coordination. I'm just not convinced Himmler is the clear #2 Nazi.

Well you would be wrong.Pulled from a number of sources:

Reichsfuhrer-SS, head of the Gestapo and the Waffen-SS, Minister of the Interior from 1943 to 1945 and organizer of the mass murder of Jews in the Third Reich, Heinrich Himmler was born in Munich on 7 October 1900.

In 1933, he had set up the first concentration camp in Dachau and in the next few years, with Hitler's encouragement, greatly extended the range of persons who qualified for internment in the camps. In a speech in January 1937, Himmler declared that "there is no more living proof of hereditary and racial laws than in a concentration camp. You find there hydrocephalics, squinters, deformed individuals, semi-Jews: a considerable number of inferior people." The mission of the German people was "the struggle for the extermination of any sub-humans, all over the world who are in league against Germany, which is the nucleus of the Nordic race; against Germany, nucleus of the German nation, against Germany the custodian of human culture: they mean the existence or non-existence of the white man; and we guide his destiny."

From the outset of his career as Reichsfuhrer of the SS, Himmler had introduced the principle of racial selection and special marriage laws which would ensure the systematic coupling of people of "high value." His promotion of illegitimacy by establishing the State-registered human stud farm known as Lebensborn, where young girls selected for their perfect Nordic traits could procreate with SS men and their offspring were better cared for than in maternity homes for married mothers, reflected Himmler's obsession with creating a race of "supermen" by means of breeding. Himmler's notorious procreation order of 28 October 1939 to the entire SS that "it will be the sublime task of German women and girls of good blood acting not frivolously but from a profound moral seriousness to become mothers to children of soldiers setting off to battle" and his demand that war heroes should be allowed a second marriage expressed the same preoccupation.

Interestingly enough, for a man who has been demonized as the incarnation of evil, Himmler makes it clear in several speeches that he was not particularly antisemitic. He simply blindly obeyed, displaying almost more amorality than immorality.

Whatever misgivings Himmler may have had, he carried out his orders with an efficiency and a zeal that at once astonish and repel. The first murders were carried out by Einsatzgruppen by shooting. As deadly as these shootings were, a more "efficient" method had to be found, one that would accelerate the killing and would at the same time spare the SS men the necessity to murder women and children in cold blood. The decision was made to use poison gases (hydrocyanic acid and carbon monoxide) in both stationary and mobile gas chambers in Poland. It is estimated that around 6 million Jews were killed during the Final Solution, along with as many as another 6 million non-Jews.

At a speech in Poznan on October 4, 1943, Himmler uttered the words that Joachim Fest has described as "one of the most horrifying testaments in the German language": 1

One principle must be absolute for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, what happens to the Czechs, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good blood of our own kind as there may be among the nations we shall acquire for ourselves, if necessary by taking away the children and bringing them up among us. Whether the other peoples live in comfort or perish of hunger interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our Kultur. Whether or not 10,000 Russian women collapse from exhaustion while digging a tank ditch interests me only in so far as the tank ditch is completed for Germany. We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude to animals, will also adopt a decent attitude to these human animals, but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and to bring them ideals. I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people.. . . Most of you know what it means to see a hundred corpses lying together, five hundred, or a thousand. To have stuck it out and at the same time--apart from exceptions caused by human weakness--to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and shall never be written.

Himmler has been named Greatest Mass Murderer of All Time by German news magazine Der Spiegel.

If Der Spiegel thinks he's a greater mass murderer than Hitler and Stalin, I think that carries a lot of weight.It's one thing to have the vision to murder millions (Hitler/Stalin) it's another to actually carry it out like Himmler did.

There are other, more sexy picks for villain, but none more hands-on on such a grand scale as this guy. Between what he did to the Jews and his organization of the Waffen-SS I don't know how you can possibly argue.

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Himmler has been named Greatest Mass Murderer of All Time by German news magazine Der Spiegel.

If Der Spiegel thinks he's a greater mass murderer than Hitler and Stalin, I think that carries a lot of weight.It's one thing to have the vision to murder millions (Hitler/Stalin) it's another to actually carry it out like Himmler did.

There are other, more sexy picks for villain, but none more hands-on on such a grand scale as this guy. Between what he did to the Jews and his organization of the Waffen-SS I don't know how you can possibly argue.

Der Spiegel?They're German

All Germans think Hitler was awesome, remember?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Himmler has been named Greatest Mass Murderer of All Time by German news magazine Der Spiegel.

If Der Spiegel thinks he's a greater mass murderer than Hitler and Stalin, I think that carries a lot of weight.It's one thing to have the vision to murder millions (Hitler/Stalin) it's another to actually carry it out like Himmler did.

There are other, more sexy picks for villain, but none more hands-on on such a grand scale as this guy. Between what he did to the Jews and his organization of the Waffen-SS I don't know how you can possibly argue.

Der Spiegel?They're German

All Germans think Hitler was awesome, remember?

Oh yeah... But they didn't put anyone else ahead of Himmler either.

 

[Abrantes]

 

[BobbyLayne]

"no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions."

Liberalism today carries many negative connotations, but in historical context the Age of Enlightenment, classical liberalism is defined by a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goalsThe word "liberal" derives from the Latin liber ("free, not slave"), and is associated with the word "liberty" and the concept of freedom.

No man is a better embodiment of classical liberalism than this man.

3.18 (58th pick) - John Locke - Intellectual

John Locke (1632-1704) was an English philosopher. Locke is considered the first of the British empiricists, but is equally important to social contract theory. His ideas had enormous influence on the development of epistemology and political philosophy, and he is widely regarded as one of the most influential Enlightenment thinkers, classical republicans, and contributors to liberal theory. His writings influenced many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. This influence is reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.

Locke's theory of mind is often cited as the origin for modern conceptions of identity and "the self", figuring prominently in the later works of philosophers. Locke was the first philosopher to define the self through a continuity of "consciousness". He also postulated that the mind was a "blank slate" or "tabula rasa"; that is, contrary to Cartesian or Christian philosophy, Locke maintained that people are born without innate ideas.

Wikipedia entry for John Locke

Locke is remembered today largely as a political philosopher. He preached the doctrine that men naturally possess certain large rights, the chief being life, liberty, and property. Rulers, he said, derived their power only from the consent of the people. He thought that government should be like a contract between the rulers and his subjects: The people give up certain of their rights in return for just rule, and the ruler should hold his power only so long as he uses it justly. These ideas had a tremendous effect on all future political thinking. The American Declaration of Independence clearly reflects Locke's teachings.

Locke was always very interested in psychology. About 1670, friends urged him to write a paper on the limitations of human judgment. He started to write a few paragraphs, but 20 years passed before he finished. The result was his great and famous 'Essay Concerning Human Understanding'. In this work he stressed the theory that the human mind starts as a tabula rasa (smoothed tablet)--that is, a waxed tablet ready to be used for writing. The mind has no inborn ideas, as most men of the time believed. Throughout life it forms its ideas only from impressions (sense experiences) that are made upon its surface.

In discussing education Locke urged the view that character formation is far more important than information and that learning should be pleasant. During his later years he turned more and more to writing about religion.

The principal works by Locke are letters:

On Toleration (1689, 1690, 1692)
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690)
two treatises--On Civil Government (1690), and Some Thoughts Concerning Education' (1693);
The Reasonableness of Christianity (1695).He died in Oates, Essex, on Oct. 28, 1704.

His Two Treatises of Government (1690) were written to justify the Glorious Revolution of 1688-89, and his Letter Concerning Toleration (1689) was written with a plain and easy urbanity, in contrast to the more common baroque eloquence. Locke was a scholar, physician, and man of affairs, well-experienced in politics and business. As a philosopher he accepted strict limitations for mind, and his political philosophy is moderate and sensible, aimed at a balance among executive, judicial, and legislative powers, although with a bias toward the last.

His first Treatise was devoted to confuting the Royalist doctrine of patriarchal divine right by descent from Adam, an argument then taken very seriously and reflecting the idea of government as an aspect of a divinely ordained chain of being. If this order were broken, chaos would come about. The argument was part of the contemporary conflict of the ancients and the moderns.

Locke tried to provide an answer by defining a limited purpose for political power, which purpose he considered to be "a right of making laws with penalties of death, and consequently all less penalties, for the regulating and preserving of property, and of employing the force of the community in execution of such laws, and in the defense of the commonwealth from foreign injury, and all this only for the public good." The authority of government derives from a contract between the rulers and the people, and the contract binds both parties. It is thus a limited power, proceeding according to established laws and "directed to no other end but the peace, safety, and public good of the people. “Whatever its form, government, to be legitimate, must govern by "declared and reasoned laws," and, since every man has a "property" in his own person and has "mixed his labor" with what he owns, government has no right to take it from him without his consent. It was the threat of attack on the laws, property, and the Protestant religion. Locke is expressing the concerns and interests of the landed and moneyed men, and his commonwealth is strictly conservative, limiting the franchise and the preponderant power to the propertied classes. Locke was thus no democrat in the modern sense and was much concerned to make the poor work harder. He assumes a conservative social hierarchy with a relatively weak executive power and defends the propertied classes both against a ruler by divine right and against radicals. In advocating toleration in religion he was more liberal: freedom of conscience, like property, he argued, is a natural right of all men. Within the possibilities of the time, Locke thus advocated a constitutional mixed government, limited by parliamentary control of the armed forces and of supply. Designed mainly to protect the rights of property, it was deprived of the right of arbitrary taxation or imprisonment without trial and was in theory responsible to all the people through the politically conscious minority who were thought to represent them.

Though he was socially conservative, Locke's writings are very important in the rise of liberal political philosophy. He vindicates the responsibility of government to the governed, the rule of law through impartial judges, and the toleration of religious and speculative opinion. He is an enemy of the totalitarian state, drawing on medieval arguments and deploying them in practical, modern terms.

ETA: remove spotlighting

 

[Yankee23Fan]

"no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions."

Liberalism today carries many negative connotations, but in historical context the Age of Enlightenment, classical liberalism is defined by a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goalsThe word "liberal" derives from the Latin liber ("free, not slave"), and is associated with the word "liberty" and the concept of freedom.

No man is a better embodiment of classical liberalism than this man.

3.18 (58th pick) - John Locke - Intellectual

Mother ******!

 

[timschochet]

Andy, I certainly can't see myself in the position of defending Heinrich Himmler. Only in this draft...

I can't argue this in detail without spotlighting. But I will say I have read numerous books on this subject, and studied it in great detail. Himmler was one of 4 men under Hitler who are all pretty much equally guilty of the crime of the Holocaust. Then we can add a fifth man who was partly responsible for the Holocaust, partly responsible for the "Green Folder", the treatment of the Russians under German occupation, and this fifth man I'm speaking of is arguably even more villainous than the other four. It's really splitting hairs between the five of them; despite Der Spiegel, Himmler in my mind does not emerge any more villainous than the other four. All five are worthy picks in this category, and I would not know quite how to rank them compared to each other. Josef Stalin also has a couple of well known accomplices who were involved with similar ghastly crimes, and would also be worthy of this list.

However, there are also heads of state and other mass murderers throughout the centuries who were the guiding force behind their crimes, in the way Hitler and Stalin were, but not Himmler: I think at least a few of these need to be ranked above accomplices, however terrible those accomplices are.

 

[higgins]

BobbyLayne, please sanitize your post for spotlighting -- TIA!

 

[Ozymandias]

Himmler has been named Greatest Mass Murderer of All Time by German news magazine Der Spiegel.

If Der Spiegel thinks he's a greater mass murderer than Hitler and Stalin, I think that carries a lot of weight.It's one thing to have the vision to murder millions (Hitler/Stalin) it's another to actually carry it out like Himmler did.

There are other, more sexy picks for villain, but none more hands-on on such a grand scale as this guy. Between what he did to the Jews and his organization of the Waffen-SS I don't know how you can possibly argue.

Der Spiegel?They're German

All Germans think Hitler was awesome, remember?

Oh yeah... But they didn't put anyone else ahead of Himmler either.

Wait a minute, wait a minute...NOBODY in Germany supported Hitler. After the war, millions claimed they hated him. It was Himmler who made them do it.

 

[FUBAR]

3.17 MOSES

One of the 4 on my current list despite already having Mohammad. I would have probably used him as wildcard or leader, but he's almost certainly a top 5 religious figure, arguably #3.

 

[timschochet]

BobbyLayne, please watch the spotlighting.

Locke is another great pick. This is yet another category I would not want to judge. I do not envy Shining Path. And what's fascinating to me is that the intellectual I personally rank #1 (though I know this is subjective) has yet to be taken...

 

[FUBAR]

I have a person that I would like to draft in the next round so no one draft him/her, K Thanks

Also is Fubar the Leader judge. I think it says that in post 1 but he is drafting. Sure someone else came in as the judge

I have 4 on my short sheet right now, just make sure 2 of them fall to my next 2 picks, TIA.I'm currently the judge, but if someone else wants to, they can have at it. I originally wasn't going to draft. If I remain the judge, Tim will evaluate my leader and I'll just judge the other 19.

I'm not seeking it, but if you want someone to judge the leaders, so you can be a drafter, I would be willing to do it. But it's ok either way.

I already am a drafter. I honestly don't care if I judge leaders or not. If non-drafters want it, I say have at it.

Yes. What I meant was so that you could singlemindedly devote all your time, attention, inquiry, scrutiny, search, effort, work, thought, analysis, imagination, intellectual power, focus, meditation, pondering, prioritizing, ranking, and reasoning to your draft picks.

Yes, thank you. I may make it past the first round now.

 

[timschochet]

Damn, these are hard lists, people. There were a few clear cut #1-3s, at least IMO. Now most of them are gone (those there is still a handful out there, I would say.) But now there's a ton of great picks left, like John Locke, who I love, and who could end up ranked, based on who else is chosen, anywhere from #2 to #20.

 

[Ozymandias]

Locke was one of the great inspirations for the American Revolution. He has great influence on the Constitution and on the French Revolution.

 

[FUBAR]

BobbyLayne, please watch the spotlighting.Locke is another great pick. This is yet another category I would not want to judge. I do not envy Shining Path. And what's fascinating to me is that the intellectual I personally rank #1 (though I know this is subjective) has yet to be taken...

we seriously need to watch the spotlighting. Copying wikipedia without editting won't work for most of these picks. I actually recomend a for spotlighting. Not sure what it should be, but it's annoying. (nothing personal Bobby, there's been spotlighting elsewhere, some of which hasn't been brought up)

 

[BobbyLayne]

BobbyLayne, please sanitize your post for spotlighting -- TIA!

scrub rinse repeatscrub rinse repeat

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[Andy Dufresne]

3.18 (58th pick) - John Locke - Intellectual

Mother ******!

Never thought he'd go this soon.

 

[timschochet]

I'm not going to punish anyone for spotlighting. I ask that it not be done out of common courtesy. I doubt it's really that harmful- I expect almost all the drafters are taking this seriously enough to make lists at least of the big names out there. But again, just out of courtesy, please don't do it.

 

[the moops]

I'm not going to punish anyone for spotlighting.

Well thank god for that!Serious business in here.