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WR Josh Gordon, KC (3 Viewers)

mvereb said:
I think it's good to see the legal perspective. However I think the author is goofing up when he tries to apply which parts of NFL's tests conform to which parts of the law. The author is suggesting that the 16 was the result of the Law's initial immunoassay test and the 13.6 was the result of the confirmation gas chromatography/mass spectrometry assay called for in the law.

We've had posted here that the first test measures multiple types of THC while the second test measures one. The first test's results may be triple that of the second test as a result.

Gordon's defense team were said to be arguing the results are invalid because the 16 and 13.6 should have been the same result. If they were from these two different tests whose results are several times different than each other, that argument would make no sense for them to make. Instead they would have argued that the 16 should have been a lot higher if it's supposed to be several times higher than the 2nd test.

Not to mention there's an actual report from the Browns beat writer that he got a 38 on the immunoassay, a 16 on the confirmation GC/MS test and a 13.6 on an additional confirmation test done at the player's request. Those results fall in line with what the testing lab documentation says to expect, which is what makes me think it is probably the best version to put our faith in.

Good to see what the legal steps are, and he very well could get an injunction for all I know. Maybe Ohio law would decide that if 2 versions of the confirmation test are run both have to be above the threshold, I don't know. But the author treating the 13.6 as the confirmation test, or as the sole one at least, doesn't seem likely to be correct.

 
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mvereb said:
NJ said:
I apologize if this has been asked/discussed already, but I don't feel like wading through 60 pages of bickering to find the answer.

Assuming Gordon were to lose the appeal, can he still file a lawsuit and seek an injunction to allow him to play until the lawsuit is settled similar to the Williams in the Starcaps case? Or is there something fundamentally different here that would not allow that to happen?

Unless I'm missing something, looking at the timeline in that case, they were suspended in Sept 2008, appealed, lost the appeal, got a restraining order allowing them to play, filed a lawsuit in Feb 2009, there was a trial in March of 2010, ruling in May 2010, filed another appeal, finally lost that appeal in Feb 2011 and served the suspension in Sept 2011, a full 3 years later.

So is it still possible that Gordon's lawyers can work the system so he can play this year even if he loses this particular appeal? I think at some point he'll lose and serve the suspension, but is it a guarantee he would have to serve it in 2014? If not he's a steal in redrafts, but I'm guessing I'm missing something as its obviously reflected in his ADP that people are not expecting him to play this year.
Here's one article that may/may not have been posted in this thread.

http://fieldandcourt.com/teams/afc-north/item/246-what-to-expect-if-josh-gordon-loses-his-appeal.html
This article was posted a while back in this thread, and it is off-base. The law he refers to is actually an Ohio administrative code, and it deals with Ohio state employees, and companies that CHOOSE to participate in their drug-free workplace program; so unless the Browns were a part of this drug-free workplace program, the legal details he discusses aren't applicable to Gordon.

If this were a viable legal option, it would have been discussed elsewhere, even if it were just other sites/reporters parroting what he said in this article. since it hasn't been reported by ESPN, CBS, NFL, or any other site, reporter, or news outlet, it seems to be incorrect information.

 
NJ said:
mvereb said:
Thanks, so from a redraft perspective, it almost seems like it comes down to whether or not you believe he has enough of a case to get a temporary restraining order rather than if you think he will win the appeal. TRO seems easier to get than winning the appeal. Obviously if you own him in a Dynasty you want him to win the appeal, but if we're talking 2014 only, do you really care if it gets dragged through the courts for 2 years and eventually he serves the suspension in 2015 or 2016 while in the meantime you can get a top 5 WR for 2014 with a mid/late round pick?
see post #6085

 
mvereb said:
I think it's good to see the legal perspective. However I think the author is goofing up when he tries to apply which parts of NFL's tests conform to which parts of the law. The author is suggesting that the 16 was the result of the Law's initial immunoassay test and the 13.6 was the result of the confirmation gas chromatography/mass spectrometry assay called for in the law.

We've had posted here that the first test measures multiple types of THC while the second test measures one. The first test's results may be triple that of the second test as a result.

Gordon's defense team were said to be arguing the results are invalid because the 16 and 13.6 should have been the same result. If they were from these two different tests whose results are several times different than each other, that argument would make no sense for them to make. Instead they would have argued that the 16 should have been a lot higher if it's supposed to be several times higher than the 2nd test.

Not to mention there's an actual report from the Browns beat writer that he got a 38 on the immunoassay, a 16 on the confirmation GC/MS test and a 13.6 on an additional confirmation test done at the player's request. Those results fall in line with what the testing lab documentation says to expect, which is what makes me think it is probably the best version to put our faith in.

Good to see what the legal steps are, and he very well could get an injunction for all I know. Maybe Ohio law would decide that if 2 versions of the confirmation test are run both have to be above the threshold, I don't know. But the author treating the 13.6 as the confirmation test, or as the sole one at least, doesn't seem likely to be correct.
I guess that's my real question here. I'm not buying what's in that article, that guy seems to be convinced he's going to win the appeal, I don't think he will, I think he'll lose and at some point serve his suspension I'm just wondering if this appeal is truly the end of it. I don't know crap about the law, but on the surface it seems like it should be a lot easier to convince a judge to grant a temporary restraining order to delay the suspension until after a pending court case than it would be to actually win a case or an appeal.

IF (and that's the real question) they are able to sue the NFL and get a TRO, then there is virtually no way that case would be settled in 2014 which would allow him to play 16 games this year regardless of the outcome. No idea of what the odds are of each, but if say his chance of winning the appeal is 1% but his chance of getting a TRO is 20-30% then it would be a mistake to put him on your do not draft list at his current ADP IMHO.

 
Browns owner Jimmy Haslam spent the first 10 minutes or so of practice Wednesday chatting with receiver Josh Gordon, who's awaiting word on his indefinite drug ban by the NFL, Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports.

It's been a weekly sight at camp, the two men conversing on the field for a few minutes, even sharing an embrace last week when they met at midfield.

But the support from the Browns' front office hasn't stopped there.

The club, which is bracing for at least eight games without its star wideout, has been actively involved in Gordon's plans after he's suspended, league sources have told the Northeast Ohio Media Group. Arbitrator Harold Henderson can hand down his ruling any day, with a decision expected within the next two weeks.

With Gordon facing possible banishment from the league for at least a year, the Browns have been proactive in lining up a support system and possible treatment if necessary while he's away. During that time, he'd be prohibited from working out with the team or attending meetings.

If Henderson reduces the suspension, there's a chance Gordon can remain with the club during the ban. Henderson can impose any number of games off for Gordon, or overturn the ban altogether.

The Browns were also instrumental in Gordon checking himself into rehab for two weeks after his DWI in Raleigh, N.C. over July 4th weekend. Since then, they've reached out to several substance abuse professionals, including former Cavs coach John Lucas, about possible post-suspension care for Gordon in the event he needs it.

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Any sort of optimism pushes me closer to keeping him.

Us Gordon owners just need a decision one way or the other please.

The part where it says the arbitrator can hand out any number of games is the optimistic part for me. I think that allows him to say I accept that it was likely secondhand smoke but you are responsible for what goes in your body. Boom 8 games.

 
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Bazinga! said:
georg013 said:
This has been one hell of a ride. Whats going to happen when its all said and done? Will this thread have the legs to continue or will we all move on to the next topic? I earned my first suspension in this thread so it means more to me than the rest. Special shout out to Soulfly and Bazinga and everyone else who have added lighter fuel to this fire!
I got 3 suspensions from this thread lol
And you earned every one of them, in other news, I got zero.

 
Any sort of optimism pushes me closer to keeping him.

Us Gordon owners just need a decision one way or the other please.

The part where it says the arbitrator can hand out any number of games is the optimistic part for me. I think that allows him to say I accept that it was likely secondhand smoke but you are responsible for what goes in your body. Boom 8 games.
So then every time someone fails a test they are going to claim second hand smoke and expect to get their suspension reduced?

 
Any sort of optimism pushes me closer to keeping him.Us Gordon owners just need a decision one way or the other please.The part where it says the arbitrator can hand out any number of games is the optimistic part for me. I think that allows him to say I accept that it was likely secondhand smoke but you are responsible for what goes in your body. Boom 8 games.
So then every time someone fails a test they are going to claim second hand smoke and expect to get their suspension reduced?
Not quite.You need a couple things,

First, test results that are razor thin close and conflicting with one another.

Second, the wherewithal to hire Maurice Suh, the resident Rock Star at such things.

The very fact that Suh took the case told me all I needed to know about Gordon's chances.

 
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Any sort of optimism pushes me closer to keeping him.Us Gordon owners just need a decision one way or the other please.The part where it says the arbitrator can hand out any number of games is the optimistic part for me. I think that allows him to say I accept that it was likely secondhand smoke but you are responsible for what goes in your body. Boom 8 games.
So then every time someone fails a test they are going to claim second hand smoke and expect to get their suspension reduced?
Not quite.You need a couple things,

First, test results that are razor thin close and conflicting with one another.

Second, the wherewithal to hire Maurice Suh, the resident Rock Star at such things.

The very fact that Suh took the case told me all I needed to know about Gordon's chances.
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.

 
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.
You really dont believe the hiring of Suh changed his chances of winning the appeal?

 
Any sort of optimism pushes me closer to keeping him.Us Gordon owners just need a decision one way or the other please.The part where it says the arbitrator can hand out any number of games is the optimistic part for me. I think that allows him to say I accept that it was likely secondhand smoke but you are responsible for what goes in your body. Boom 8 games.
So then every time someone fails a test they are going to claim second hand smoke and expect to get their suspension reduced?
Not quite.You need a couple things,

First, test results that are razor thin close and conflicting with one another.

Second, the wherewithal to hire Maurice Suh, the resident Rock Star at such things.

The very fact that Suh took the case told me all I needed to know about Gordon's chances.
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.
exactly. knowing that you have a case and expecting to win it are two different things.
 
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.
You really dont believe the hiring of Suh changed his chances of winning the appeal?
I think Suh probably gives him the best chance, but that chance is likely still pretty small IMO. I DON'T think that Suh would take / not take Gordon's case based on anything other than getting paid for his time, which is what the other guy seemed to be saying. I'm sure Suh would prefer to win, but he's not going to pass on chunk of cash because he doesn't like Gordon's chances.

 
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.
You really dont believe the hiring of Suh changed his chances of winning the appeal?
I think Suh probably gives him the best chance, but that chance is likely still pretty small IMO. I DON'T think that Suh would take / not take Gordon's case based on anything other than getting paid for his time, which is what the other guy seemed to be saying. I'm sure Suh would prefer to win, but he's not going to pass on chunk of cash because he doesn't like Gordon's chances.
While I dont doubt the $ to be a huge motivator, elite lawyers also have a reputation to uphold as well.

Elite lawyers arent elite because they charge a lot. It's because they win.

If he takes cases solely for the $ and loses, he wont be making $ for very long. It's very twofold.

 
Not that he needs it but alot of lawyers take un-winnable cases for the publicity which helps no matter which way the verdict goes and for the challenge . Not allot of risk for him. Gordon gets a full year he was valiant and he made a fortune.. Gordon gets 10-12 games hes a hero for saving part of his season which no one thought a month ago. Gordon gets no time and hes won big time something that no money can buy.

 
Not that he needs it but alot of lawyers take un-winnable cases for the publicity which helps no matter which way the verdict goes and for the challenge . Not allot of risk for him. Gordon gets a full year he was valiant and he made a fortune.. Gordon gets 10-12 games hes a hero for saving part of his season which no one thought a month ago. Gordon gets no time and hes won big time something that no money can buy.
:goodposting:

No one is going to fault Suh for not completing the Hail Mary here. Both avenues for the appeal (2nd hand / attacking the NFL's established testing procedures) were huge longshots from the start.

 
Not that he needs it but alot of lawyers take un-winnable cases for the publicity which helps no matter which way the verdict goes and for the challenge . Not allot of risk for him. Gordon gets a full year he was valiant and he made a fortune.. Gordon gets 10-12 games hes a hero for saving part of his season which no one thought a month ago. Gordon gets no time and hes won big time something that no money can buy.
:goodposting:

No one is going to fault Suh for not completing the Hail Mary here. Both avenues for the appeal (2nd hand / attacking the NFL's established testing procedures) were huge longshots from the start.
And for those that think Suh's case is over after the arbitrator rules, may just want to hold your fire.

There has been talk among the legal team about all options that are open in case of a poor ruling by the arbitrator.

Do not discount them taking this thru the court system, which of course would green light Gordon playing in 2014 , until it could be decided by the courts.

 
I have NO clue if the starcaps case relates to this... Im no lawyer.

Seems that lawyers do believe they have an avenue for it... So hell, why not.. If they have to.

 
Not that he needs it but alot of lawyers take un-winnable cases for the publicity which helps no matter which way the verdict goes and for the challenge . Not allot of risk for him. Gordon gets a full year he was valiant and he made a fortune.. Gordon gets 10-12 games hes a hero for saving part of his season which no one thought a month ago. Gordon gets no time and hes won big time something that no money can buy.
:goodposting: No one is going to fault Suh for not completing the Hail Mary here. Both avenues for the appeal (2nd hand / attacking the NFL's established testing procedures) were huge longshots from the start.
And for those that think Suh's case is over after the arbitrator rules, may just want to hold your fire.There has been talk among the legal team about all options that are open in case of a poor ruling by the arbitrator.

Do not discount them taking this thru the court system, which of course would green light Gordon playing in 2014 , until it could be decided by the courts.
:lmao:

You've been sitting in on the meetings with Gordon's legal team?

If your scenario were an "of course it would green light Gordon for 2014" situation, I'm guessing any number of players previously suspended under the current policy would have tried it perhaps. I'm pretty sure the language of the CBA was worked on by enough legal talent that it's fairly ironclad.

But I do the effort in keeping the door open to continue grasping at straws even after the decision is rendered.

 
Dawg Pound Nation ‏@DawgPoundNews 31m

Source: Browns Expecting Josh Gordon Ruling On Friday http://wp.me/p4tsom-1I7
heard this too many times to give it a real thought. Eventually they'll be right.

Monday Night is gonna be EXPLOSIVE. hEISMAN V hEISMAN.... Gordon+Cameron v Jackson/Garcon.

ooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I kind of feel they will wait until after Monday game...Just for a glimpse of the future.

 
I'm guessing Suh is being compensated pretty handsomely win or lose. It's not a personal injury case where he only gets a cut if he wins. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Gordon's chances of winning the appeal.
You really dont believe the hiring of Suh changed his chances of winning the appeal?
I think Suh probably gives him the best chance, but that chance is likely still pretty small IMO. I DON'T think that Suh would take / not take Gordon's case based on anything other than getting paid for his time, which is what the other guy seemed to be saying. I'm sure Suh would prefer to win, but he's not going to pass on chunk of cash because he doesn't like Gordon's chances.
While I dont doubt the $ to be a huge motivator, elite lawyers also have a reputation to uphold as well.

Elite lawyers arent elite because they charge a lot. It's because they win.

If he takes cases solely for the $ and loses, he wont be making $ for very long. It's very twofold.
They also want to take on the elite cases even if they don't win.

 
Dawg Pound Nation ‏@DawgPoundNews 31m

Source: Browns Expecting Josh Gordon Ruling On Friday http://wp.me/p4tsom-1I7
heard this too many times to give it a real thought. Eventually they'll be right.

Monday Night is gonna be EXPLOSIVE. hEISMAN V hEISMAN.... Gordon+Cameron v Jackson/Garcon.

ooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I kind of feel they will wait until after Monday game...Just for a glimpse of the future.
The NFL likes to announce these things on a Friday so it gets less attention.

 
Here we go boys. It's just like when the polls are closing on election day. :popcorn:
8 games. Lock it in. The 2 game ban of Ray Rice helps Gordon. The NFL uses that screw up to justify only 8 games. I mean how do you give a guy only 2 games for pummeling a woman and another guy a while year for a failed test where if you picked the samples the opposite way, he is clean.

 
16 games with possible reinstatement after 8 if he stays clean.

BUT this lawyer will stay the appeal and he'll play the whole season because the lawyer will challenge it in court.

 
Appeal successful.

Basically, the only correct decision they can make
The precedence that would set is terrible.

"Test positive for a PED, appeal, and get it dismissed." There's no way he gets nothing with his history. If a super clean guy like Peyton Manning tested at those levels, and he said that it was second hand smoke from a party... yea, he gets off with nothing. Not Gordon, a guy who has been popped twice for different issues and got in trouble this summer on top of it during his appeal. Just not going to happen.

 
Appeal successful.

Basically, the only correct decision they can make
The precedence that would set is terrible.

"Test positive for a PED, appeal, and get it dismissed." There's no way he gets nothing with his history. If a super clean guy like Peyton Manning tested at those levels, and he said that it was second hand smoke from a party... yea, he gets off with nothing. Not Gordon, a guy who has been popped twice for different issues and got in trouble this summer on top of it during his appeal. Just not going to happen.
Wait. Manning is a Stage 3 offender? Why didn't someone tell me?

 
Appeal successful.

Basically, the only correct decision they can make
The precedence that would set is terrible.

"Test positive for a PED, appeal, and get it dismissed." There's no way he gets nothing with his history. If a super clean guy like Peyton Manning tested at those levels, and he said that it was second hand smoke from a party... yea, he gets off with nothing. Not Gordon, a guy who has been popped twice for different issues and got in trouble this summer on top of it during his appeal. Just not going to happen.
Is this a race thing?

I hope not

The law should not favor one individual or the other. It should apply to all the same.

 
Appeal successful.

Basically, the only correct decision they can make
The precedence that would set is terrible.

"Test positive for a PED, appeal, and get it dismissed." There's no way he gets nothing with his history. If a super clean guy like Peyton Manning tested at those levels, and he said that it was second hand smoke from a party... yea, he gets off with nothing. Not Gordon, a guy who has been popped twice for different issues and got in trouble this summer on top of it during his appeal. Just not going to happen.
Is this a race thing?

I hope not

The law should not favor one individual or the other. It should apply to all the same.
If that is the case Gordon is gone 16 games....Blackmon......Brazil.......Gordon.

 
Given how little we actually know about this whole fiasco, it surprises me that folks have drawn such firm lines in the sand on the issue.

If ya have to make a FF decision, sure, you have to make a call on what you think will happen, but otherwise I don't see how anyone can reasonably have much confidence which way things will break.

We know essentially nothing and even those few things we think we know are questionable to both accuracy and veracity.

 
Here's what I don't get. Josh Gordon signed a 4 year contract for $5.3m in 2012. He apparently has had no shortage of things to spend it on.

Where's he getting the money to pay Suh? or is Suh not that expensive?

 

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