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WR Josh Gordon, KC (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
This was covered in your other thread, but you are using literature from the OLD policy (circa 2010). The new CBA went into effect in 2011, and since then Justin Blackmon has been suspended for 1 year, and only has 2 "reported" offenses. It would seem likely that the new policy might not be identical to the one from 2010 (especially since virtually all reports are citing a possible 1-year suspension; you are the only place I can find mention of 4-6 games).
I understand you want Gordon to be able to play for your Browns; I want him to be able to play for my fantasy team. Grasping at straws (or just straight making stuff up) doesn't make that any more likely. Just stop.
Bamac
Footballguy
Blackmon's indefinite suspension is entirely consistent with the "old" substance abuse policy -- the only one that's publicly available.
Gordon could be different. He got a two-game suspension, but he got fined four weeks' pay. To me, that looks like the parties disagreed about whether Gordon completed Stage 1, so they split the baby between b.(1)(a) and b.(1)(b) -- if he had completed Stage 1, it should've been a fine only; if he hadn't, it should've been a four-game suspension. If that's true, Gordon's next violation should probably result in a six-game suspension under b.(2)(b).
So let's take Blackmon first. Working backward from his indefinite suspension, we know he was in Stage 3 after his offseason positive test, so that must have been his second violation (you go to Stage 3 only after two violations in stage 2.) His first violation must not have been a suspension, or we would have heard about it. Under b.(1)(a), a first violation results only in a fine if the player has completed Stage 1. So it seems like Blackmon completed Stage 1, got a fine for his first Stage 2 violation, got a four-game suspension for his second Stage 2 violation last offseason (consistent with b.(2)(a)), and then got dumped into Stage 3. When he violated again during the 2013 season, he got a year-long suspension because he was in Stage 3.
Gordon could be different. He got a two-game suspension, but he got fined four weeks' pay. To me, that looks like the parties disagreed about whether Gordon completed Stage 1, so they split the baby between b.(1)(a) and b.(1)(b) -- if he had completed Stage 1, it should've been a fine only; if he hadn't, it should've been a four-game suspension. If that's true, Gordon's next violation should probably result in a six-game suspension under b.(2)(b).
Bamac
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
donkshow
Footballguy
I was under the impression that Gordon entered the NFL in stage 2 because of his college history. I was also under the impression that this was part of his defence while defending himself in his codeine suspension. Being his 1st failed test + the Cough Medicine argument led to the reduced suspension.
Now, does that now mean that they kept him in Stage 2 because he's technically only failed 1 NFL drug test (prior to the current one) or even though his appeal was approved, he still moved into Stage 3 because of his College history.
I guess we'll find out in the coming days when an announcement is supposed to be made.
My arbitrary guess is a 4 game suspension and is in Stage 3 where his next fail requires an application for reinstatement.
Now, does that now mean that they kept him in Stage 2 because he's technically only failed 1 NFL drug test (prior to the current one) or even though his appeal was approved, he still moved into Stage 3 because of his College history.
I guess we'll find out in the coming days when an announcement is supposed to be made.
My arbitrary guess is a 4 game suspension and is in Stage 3 where his next fail requires an application for reinstatement.
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
What I said a week ago, just w more detail...
re: 6 game suspension
http://dawgpoundnation.com/2014/05/20/josh-gordon-facing-6-game-suspension/
re: 6 game suspension
http://dawgpoundnation.com/2014/05/20/josh-gordon-facing-6-game-suspension/
Soulfly3
Footballguy
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
don't understand the appeal to be honest, did he or did he not test positive for weed? More like begging the league to spare him one more chance instead of appealing.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Do we even know what it was for?
I think we're all assuming weed, I dont recall it being stated weed... maybe Im wrong
Banger
Footballguy
he was apparently smoking under doctors orders to lower his sperm count as a form of birth control for his girlfriend. The Dr. apparently mistakenly informed him that weed was ok to smoke for medicinal reasons. It wasn't his fault just a big mix up and he should've checked with the league first......
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
And yet the Justin Blackmon suspension doesn't follow that. Blackmon was arrested for a DUI which would have entered him into the substance abuse program and was suspended indefinitely after 2 failed tests. Blackmon had to have had another issue in the substance abuse program which was obviously never released. That could very well be the case with Josh Gordon as well.
"That arrest landed him the NFL's substance-abuse program.
It's unclear what caused his second violation, but it could have been a failed drug test"
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9228472/justin-blackmon-jacksonville-jaguars-suspended-four-games
We don't have all of the information.
Bamac
Footballguy
I don't think they do, but they don't need to. If Blackmon completed stage 1 and Gordon didn't (or arguably didn't), that alone explains the apparent discrepancy.
cstu
Footballguy
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
You are missing the point.
Arrests or not, Blackmon's timeline does not follow the policy. To be suspended indefinitely, you had to have been suspended twice before that.
You are using the policy to attempt to figure out what stage Josh Gordon is in order to predict this suspension length and yet no where does it say in the substance abuse policy that someone can go from 4 games to indefinite like Justin Blackmon.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
I realize that, but Blackmon went from a 4 game suspension to indefinite. There is a piece of the puzzle missing. Either he should have been suspended before his 4 game suspension, or he should have not received an indefinite suspension this latest time around.
And just like a week ago, the Browns fan who posted that is basing it on (possibly) out-dated information. When someone posts a link to a Drug policy from after the new CBA (post 2011), then you might have something, but otherwise, anecdotal evidence (Blackmon's suspensions), and all reports not from Browns message boards are pointing to a year-long suspension.
Or we are basing all this guessing on out-dated, inaccurate information. I can't find a link to the NFL Drug policy after the new CBA was passed. It is possible that the drug policy was changed when the CBA was agreed to, and we aren't privy to that document, for some reason.
They're two separate issues. The violation would be a violation of the drug policy. The arrests would be under the realm of the player conduct. Two separate areas.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Bamac
Footballguy
Or you're not reading. Blackmon's suspensions are entirely consistent with the 2010 policy. He started his career in stage 1 and completed it. He had a violation in stage 2 that resulted in a fine. We didn't hear about it because it's not public info. His next violation was a four-game suspension. And next the indefinite. Read my post (and the policy language) about 20 posts ago.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
It's pretty impossible to figure any of this out with any certainty. It's all supposed to be confidential. Peyton Manning might have tested positive for heroin (once) for all we know. Safest bet seems to be going with what the major networks are reporting -- guessing that they know more than any fantasy geek armed with spare time and google.
You're making a couple big assumptions to make Blackmon's suspension consistent with the 2010 policy.
1-How do you know Blackmon started his career in stage 1?
2-How do you know he completed stage 1?
There's no report that either of these things happened, that I know of. If you have one, I'd like to see it.
So essentially, you're just guessing about Blackmon's situation, but assuming you are correct, then we are still in a situation where Gordon is facing a year-long suspension, rather than a 4-6 game suspension, as Brown's fans are hoping for. The facts with Gordon can be exactly the same as those you posted for Blackmon.
1-Gordon started his career in stage 1 and completed it.
2-He had a violation in stage 2 that resulted in a fine. We didn't hear about it because it's not public info.
3-His next violation was a four-game suspension (reduced to 2 games, although he gave up 4 game checks).
4-Now the report of another failed test, and the indefinite suspension.
Either way, the wildly optimistic hopes of Brown's fans that ALL the NFL reporters that are reporting about a year suspension are wrong don't have much support.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Why is it taking so long?
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Goodell: "6 games!!!"
Rosenhaus: "4 games!!!"
................
Goodell: "6 games!!!"
Rosenhaus: "4 games!!!"
....................
Goodell: "6 games!!!"
Rosenhaus: "4 games!!!"...........
.................
Goodell: "6 games!!!"
Rosenhaus: "4 games!!!".............
........................
Goodell: "6 games!!!"
Rosenhaus: "4 games!!!"
and so on
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
They want to give the appearance of an actual process and not an arbitrary decision by the same person that makes the original decision. .
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
maybe they are all sitting around puffin blunts and laughing about how silly the rules are
Bamac
Footballguy
I'm assuming nothing. You and others have been arguing that Blackmon shows the policy has changed. I simply showed that Blackmon's situation is consistent with the old policy.
Your Gordon scenario is certainly possible. I don't think anyone has said a one-year suspension isn't possible -- just that it may not be as obviously likely as most believe. Full disclosure: I am not a Browns fan or a pro-pot crusader. I own Gordon on one of six dynasty teams.
Bamac
Footballguy
I agree with all of this. I think the only difference is that I'd give the networks 1:3 odds against geeks + google, while it seems you'd give them about 1:19 odds. Major media can become a bit of an echo chamber on stuff like this. And if Gordon does get less than a year -- again, I don't think this is the most likely scenario (because Schefter > geeks + google) -- I can see the talking heads now complaining about Goodell's hypocrisy, even though it's quite possible that "the book" requires six games.
Maybe you should take the advice you tried to give me & try reading my posts in the thread; on every occasion where I talk about Blackmon (or the 2010) policy that we have access to, I've said it's possible the policy has changed. I haven't used Blackmon's situation as proof of anything, merely that how his suspensions occurred could be an indication that the policy isn't exactly the same as the 2010 version.
And Soulfly has been trumpeting that the suspension is only 4-6 games ad nauseum. That's the only reason I posted in this thread. Between this and the other one, I'm trying to find news about the situation, and it seems like every other post, he is saying the suspension will be 4-6 games, when there is little factual basis for this belief, and the only people I can find suggesting the possibility are Browns fans or on Browns message boards.
Bamac
Footballguy
Emphasis in original.ETA: you've definitely softened your stance, and I understand being annoyed by the pro-Gordon crowd. But there's not "NO" evidence that Gordon's still in stage 2. If it weren't for Schefter, I'd think Stage 2 is the best guess.Bayhawks said:
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Pleas provide the evidence, then, that Gordon faces a 4-6 game suspension. Evidence is a quote, report, article, statement (preferably from Gordon, the NFL, or the Browns, but a report would suffice). A belief that Gordon is still in stage 2, based on assumptions (that the NFL Drug policy hasn't changed, that Gordon didn't enter the league in Stage 1, that Gordon did successfully complete stage 1, that Gordon did not have an unreported failed test) is not evidence.
Until I see evidence that Gordon is only facing 4-6 games, I'm going to believe the almost universal reports (from non-Browns fans) that he faces a year-long suspension.
ETA-I haven't softened my stance. It's exactly the same as it was from the original post. Either the drug policy has changed, or Blackmon (and possibly Gordon) had unreported failed tests, because otherwise, Blackmon shouldn't have been suspended for a year, and Gordon shouldn't be facing the year long suspension.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Bayhawks,
http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/2012%20Personal%20Conduct%20Policy.pdf
You're welcome.
Personal Conduct. Can lead to suspensions. Up to Goodell what those might be...
Personal conduct. As in, arrests. As in the arrests that took place on Blackmon. As in the arrests Gordon DOESNT have.
As in, the two scenarios arent the same. As in, Blackmon also can be suspended under Personal Conduct policy due to arrests.
Bye.
http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/2012%20Personal%20Conduct%20Policy.pdf
You're welcome.
Personal Conduct. Can lead to suspensions. Up to Goodell what those might be...
Personal conduct. As in, arrests. As in the arrests that took place on Blackmon. As in the arrests Gordon DOESNT have.
As in, the two scenarios arent the same. As in, Blackmon also can be suspended under Personal Conduct policy due to arrests.
Bye.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Blackmon wasn't suspended under the Personal Conduct policy so Blackmon and Gordon are the same. Nice try though.
That means nothing, since Blackmon wasn't suspended under the personal conduct policy, he was suspended under the substance abuse policy.
First suspension:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000165550/article/justin-blackmon-suspended-four-games-by-nfl
Year-long suspension:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1834051-justin-blackmon-suspended-indefinitely-for-violation-of-substance-abuse-policy
So, again, you're grasping at straws. Blackmon's arrests and the personal conduct policy aren't relevant, yet you bring them up to try to "prove" that Gordon isn't in danger of a year out.
buck naked
Footballguy
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Shouldn't the Browns be giving Gordon's reps to someone else? Let the QB's throw to someone they'll actually be throwing to?
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Tibereas
Footballguy
Shouldn't the Browns have drafted a WR? I am prolly putting too much stock into the Browns paterns here but they seam to be thinking he's going to play by their actions. Had they drafted a WR and had they given 1st team reps to another WR, then I would say he's done for the year but they are not doing that. Then again, it is the Browns..
I agree with all that you have said, but I have also seen what looks like a company going through the motions in the corporate world, just to "show face". Think of it this way; if they made Gordon sit on the sideline, wouldn't they almost be admitting his guilt? It would make it that much easier for the NFL to levy a harsh penalty if the team is essentially moving on. Jacksonville planned for Blackmon to be gone, so the NFL can hold him and them in limbo...neither Gordon or the Browns have, so not only does a decision need to be made, but depending on the length of suspension, they will be impacting a team greatly.
