WR Marvin Harrison Jr., ARZ (2 Viewers)

[JohnnyU]

I blame Murray.

Blame Canada

 

[Smack Tripper]

great buy low.. going on the road to buffalo isn't easy in any quarters, looked like Kyler was running for his life.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This seems relevant

 

[The Gator]

This seems relevant

My son (cards fan, who took MH2 #8 in our dynasty start up) and I were going nuts over this. Still didn’t like the gamelan overall, but this would have been huuuuge

 

[JohnnyU]

This seems relevant

My son (cards fan, who took MH2 #8 in our dynasty start up) and I were going nuts over this. Still didn’t like the gamelan overall, but this would have been huuuuge

Rookie fever is one thing, but that's taking it to another level.

 

[KellysHeroes]

And I offered 3 1sts for this.. one of them being in top 3

 

[jtd13]

This seems relevant

Another picture shows Kyler about to be hit by 2 unblocked pass rushers at this time... Might have impacted his downfield vision a bit

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This seems relevant

Another picture shows Kyler about to be hit by 2 unblocked pass rushers at this time... Might have impacted his downfield vision a bit

Here’s a wide pan.

It appears there was a brief window where he could have made the throw.

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[zed2283]

I really, really hate watching Kyler Murray play. Every play is like the keystone cops.

 

[Faust]

Tyler Drake

Arizona Cardinals head coach Jonathan Gannon while talking Marvin Harrison Jr.'s Week 1 showing with @BurnsAndGambo said "no question we got to get him going, we gotta get him a little bit involved, but they did some things that took him away and put a lot of resources to him."

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[Ray_T]

This seems relevant

thats pretty sick that he got THAT open. but from the sound of it, there was a blitz making it hard for Murray to see him. once they get on the same page a bit more, Murray will know where to look for him. thats part of the 'developing a repour with your QB' that sometimes limits the upside some rookies have in their first year. it takes time. and a little bit of patience.

they will sort it out..... eventually. Just dont sell low.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This seems relevant

thats pretty sick that he got THAT open. but from the sound of it, there was a blitz making it hard for Murray to see him. once they get on the same page a bit more, Murray will know where to look for him. thats part of the 'developing a repour with your QB' that sometimes limits the upside some rookies have in their first year. it takes time. and a little bit of patience.

they will sort it out..... eventually. Just dont sell low.

Here’s the wider angle.

Looks like there was a window.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Still shots don't tell the story.

Here is every Marvin Harrison Jr route from week 1

Quick thoughts:

-Normally, I ignore boxscore hunting this early.. but his 3 targets really do tell the story: He seemed like the "1st read" on just 3, maybe 4 plays.
-The long developing plays just weren't there as Kyler preferred picking up shorter gains with McBride & Dortch.
-The drop was sad to see as the play was designed, it was properly executed, he was the clear 1st read and then... whoopsies.
-They did go back to him on their very next dropback.

-The play where he's waving his arms (passed around on X) would've been an unreal throw from Kyler Murray launching it 45+ yards with 1:10 left. He instead eventually completed it to Dortch for a 1st down. Don't fault Kyler for NOT making a Madden game-type decision and launching it to EZ with game on the line.Scheme Thoughts:-Arizona ranked dead last in fpts to outside WRs last year. Call it scheme, call it lack of personnel... but in Game 1, it was clear the plan was a healthy dose of James Conner + eating up middle of the field based on what BUF defense gave them. -Buffalo's secondary did NOT surrender the outside and it was same story in 2023, 4th fewest fpts to outside WRs. -Arizona starting outside WRs (Marvin Harrison + Michael Wilson) combined for two catches.

The play in question starts at 4:22.

Orlovsky breaks down that one play perfectly

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I brought this up in another thread, but Kyler was almost exclusively trying to connect on underneath routes, or take off when it got warm. 18 of his 19 of his first half attempts (16 completions) were within 9 yards of the LOS or screens behind the LOS (the only 10+ throw was a 5 yd TD).

He started off the second half 1/6. Two of the three passes over 20 came on the last drive that ended up in a turnover by downs.

Passing Depth

• Behind LOS 4/5 36 (2 FD)
• 0-9 yards 16/18 121 (7 FD)
• 10-19 yards 1/5 5 (1 FD, TD)
• 20+ 0/3 0

McBride had 9 targets, 7 of the them were <10 yards ADoT was 4.1. Dortch had 8 targets, 7 were short passes - ADoT 4.7. 8 targets to the 3 RBs.

38 drop backs, 4 sacks, 3 scrambles, Buffalo generated pressure 14 times. He had the longes time to throw in the league going into tonight (3.30) because he bought himself time but he was under duress. You can't setup and deliver a deep target when you have a free runner bearing down on you.

 

[Faust]

Cardinals, OC have 'some work to do' getting Marvin Harrison Jr. the ball after WR's 1-catch NFL debut

 

[Faust]

Bo Brack
“I’ll never lose confidence in Marv.”

Arizona Cardinals QB Kyler Murray maintains his high confidence in rookie WR Marvin Harrison Jr. @PHNX_Cardinals

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[JohnnyU]

Sorry if already posted, but I was watching a podcast this morning and it was mentioned he had trouble with separation. I wouldn't be too worried, but it was mentioned. I don't even remember which podcast it was either.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Kyle Odegard mentioned that his max speed on Sunday was 16.7 mph which is painfully slow. 5.0 40 slow.

Particularly for a guy who was measured at over 22mph in a game last year.

 

[eighsse2]

Kyle Odegard mentioned that his max speed on Sunday was 16.7 mph which is painfully slow. 5.0 40 slow.

Particularly for a guy who was measured at over 22mph in a game last year.

How could that be possible, other than just not caring, which also seems impossible?

 

[zed2283]

Kyle Odegard mentioned that his max speed on Sunday was 16.7 mph which is painfully slow. 5.0 40 slow.

Particularly for a guy who was measured at over 22mph in a game last year.

How could that be possible, other than just not caring, which also seems impossible?

That's pretty dependent on routes run.

 

[eighsse2]

Kyle Odegard mentioned that his max speed on Sunday was 16.7 mph which is painfully slow. 5.0 40 slow.

Particularly for a guy who was measured at over 22mph in a game last year.

How could that be possible, other than just not caring, which also seems impossible?

That's pretty dependent on routes run.

Ahhh, true.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

2024 Season, also his rookie year, sum it up in 1 word - Overrated
People that take him in the 2nd round deserve what awaits them

One of the biggest gaffes possible in the first 2-3 rounds of any redraft.
Definitely won't be on the MoP this year
Wish him nothing but success but he can't possibly accumulate the numbers needed as a rookie to create any value whatsoever where he is slotted or being drafted.

 

[farfromforgotten]

2024 Season, also his rookie year, sum it up in 1 word - Overrated
People that take him in the 2nd round deserve what awaits them

One of the biggest gaffes possible in the first 2-3 rounds of any redraft.
Definitely won't be on the MoP this year
Wish him nothing but success but he can't possibly accumulate the numbers needed as a rookie to create any value whatsoever where he is slotted or being drafted.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

2024 Season, also his rookie year, sum it up in 1 word - Overrated
People that take him in the 2nd round deserve what awaits them

One of the biggest gaffes possible in the first 2-3 rounds of any redraft.
Definitely won't be on the MoP this year
Wish him nothing but success but he can't possibly accumulate the numbers needed as a rookie to create any value whatsoever where he is slotted or being drafted.

It gets worse, look what I wrote in the long winded TLDR Redraft thread a few weeks back

"2.06/2.04 Marvin Harrison Jr - How about we run the “Zonk” prize from Let’s Make a Deal? How about an 8 foot tall couch with diapers the size of large area rugs? I can keep making jokes here but the risk of a rookie WR in the first 18-20 picks is hard to measure. This is the WR1 for some teams? And you’re going to put that up against Hill, CDL, ARSB and AJB just to name a few of the WRs that go just a few picks ahead of Junior. Redraft ‘24, I’ll pass at this price point, seems foolish but I understand how some get seduced."

 

[cockroach]

2024 Season, also his rookie year, sum it up in 1 word - Overrated
People that take him in the 2nd round deserve what awaits them

One of the biggest gaffes possible in the first 2-3 rounds of any redraft.
Definitely won't be on the MoP this year
Wish him nothing but success but he can't possibly accumulate the numbers needed as a rookie to create any value whatsoever where he is slotted or being drafted.

It's a little soon for victory laps, no?

 

[Faust]

Scott Barrett
Looking at all WR performances since the start of last season, Marvin Harrison Jr.'s Week 1 ranks...

+ 5th percentile in separation score (1,710 of 1,798)
+ 2nd percentile by max speed (1,699 of 1,730)

H/T: @FantasyPtsData / @SethWalder

Joe
But why Scott?

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Scott Barrett
TLDR: Marvin Harrison Jr. had one of the highest average depth of routes on the week, and the Buffalo defense spams two-high and is designed to shut down those routes. It was always going to be a 30% Trey McBride target share week imo

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[Faust]

Sam Monson
If I hadn't seen college tracking speed data for Marvin Harrison Jr and just had his Week 1 mph/tape plus skipping the 40 at the Combine I'd be terrified.

As it is, I'm merely confused.

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Josh Bachler
The first thing I did was google speed data for him in college and saw he once reached 22.2 mph. Absolutely crazy how much slower he looked. Hopefully it was just being too tentative/unsure of the plays or something

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Sam Monson
Wasn't just a one-time thing, either. He was consistently fast in college data

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[Faust]

Des B
Any ideas what could explain this? Is he hurt? Tentative in his debut?

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Sam Monson
I can only assume he was carrying some minor injury. Or has been and is working back from it. I guess maybe the weather (wind) could have been a factor.

Hence confusion.

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[Ministry of Pain]

2024 Season, also his rookie year, sum it up in 1 word - Overrated
People that take him in the 2nd round deserve what awaits them

One of the biggest gaffes possible in the first 2-3 rounds of any redraft.
Definitely won't be on the MoP this year
Wish him nothing but success but he can't possibly accumulate the numbers needed as a rookie to create any value whatsoever where he is slotted or being drafted.

It's a little soon for victory laps, no?

Fair point and we also got several @Faust posts offering a lot of good information as to perhaps why he came out of the gate slow

 

[kyoun1e]

This is the buy low moment on M. Harrison.

 

[zed2283]

This is the buy low moment on M. Harrison.

Yeah, they're already trying in my dynasty league

 

[zeeshan2]

Sorry if already posted, but I was watching a podcast this morning and it was mentioned he had trouble with separation. I wouldn't be too worried, but it was mentioned. I don't even remember which podcast it was either.

Scott Barrett

@ScottBarrettDFB

Looking at all WR performances since the start of last season, Marvin Harrison Jr.'s Week 1 ranks...
+ 5th percentile in separation score (1,710 of 1,798)
+ 2nd percentile by max speed (1,699 of 1,730)

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MHJ’s max speed against Buffalo was 16.7 mph, per ESPN, which is really slow. He looked faster than that in college, and he’s 6-4 so it takes him longer to reach top speed, but definitely something to monitor.

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[IHEARTFF]

This is the buy low moment on M. Harrison.

Yeah, they're already trying in my dynasty league

Let me add another 3rd

 

[EBF]

Way too early to dance on his grave, but I compared him to 2023 Bijan going into the season in the sense that both guys carried narratives and reputations that did not match their tape. Neither has generational athletic traits. Harrison is not Julio or Calvin from a tools standpoint. He is a technician like Wayne or Green. I think he's likely to finish the year with respectable numbers, but the raw talent may have been overstated. Even if you want to say he's Fitz, Fitz had 10-15 pounds on him and was much stronger. He's just not in that freaky category ala Moss, Tyreek, Calvin, Julio, Andre.

 

[Statorama]

Kyle Odegard mentioned that his max speed on Sunday was 16.7 mph which is painfully slow. 5.0 40 slow.

Particularly for a guy who was measured at over 22mph in a game last year.

As a comparison, that’s slower than Keenan Allen’s time

 

[irish eyes]

So what I'm taking from all of these comments is I made a huge mistake taking him #1 in dynasty rookie draft this year?

 

[The Gator]

So what I'm taking from all of these comments is I made a huge mistake taking him #1 in dynasty rookie draft this year?

Not yet.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Way too early to dance on his grave, but I compared him to 2023 Bijan going into the season in the sense that both guys carried narratives and reputations that did not match their tape. Neither has generational athletic traits. Harrison is not Julio or Calvin from a tools standpoint. He is a technician like Wayne or Green. I think he's likely to finish the year with respectable numbers, but the raw talent may have been overstated. Even if you want to say he's Fitz, Fitz had 10-15 pounds on him and was much stronger. He's just not in that freaky category ala Moss, Tyreek, Calvin, Julio, Andre.

Huh? Bijan looked great last year and week 1. The only thing that held him back last year was Arthur Smith.

 

[EBF]

Way too early to dance on his grave, but I compared him to 2023 Bijan going into the season in the sense that both guys carried narratives and reputations that did not match their tape. Neither has generational athletic traits. Harrison is not Julio or Calvin from a tools standpoint. He is a technician like Wayne or Green. I think he's likely to finish the year with respectable numbers, but the raw talent may have been overstated. Even if you want to say he's Fitz, Fitz had 10-15 pounds on him and was much stronger. He's just not in that freaky category ala Moss, Tyreek, Calvin, Julio, Andre.

Huh? Bijan looked great last year and week 1. The only thing that held him back last year was Arthur Smith.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Bijan is really good and I think Harrison can be really good.

However, Bijan was billed as generational when that was never on the tape. He doesn't have the raw athletic capacity of Saquon, Peterson, or Tomlinson.

Likewise, Harrison is not Andre, Julio, Moss, or Calvin athletically. He doesn't have elite physical traits that he can leverage to dominate.

I think he's in the ballpark of Lamb or Wayne. That's still really good.

However, the hype in both cases created a false sense of who the prospect actually is.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

“I wouldn't say [the Bills] were taking [Harrison] away," Murray said Sunday. "As a quarterback, obviously you're going through your reads. Sometimes the ball goes to him. That's not my job. Obviously, I have a sense and a feel for when guys don't get the ball and when they are getting the ball, but I'll leave that up to [offensive coordinator] Drew [Petzing]."

I mean it’s not Murray’s job to throw to him

 

[rodalive]

Way too early to dance on his grave, but I compared him to 2023 Bijan going into the season in the sense that both guys carried narratives and reputations that did not match their tape. Neither has generational athletic traits. Harrison is not Julio or Calvin from a tools standpoint. He is a technician like Wayne or Green. I think he's likely to finish the year with respectable numbers, but the raw talent may have been overstated. Even if you want to say he's Fitz, Fitz had 10-15 pounds on him and was much stronger. He's just not in that freaky category ala Moss, Tyreek, Calvin, Julio, Andre.

Huh? Bijan looked great last year and week 1. The only thing that held him back last year was Arthur Smith.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Bijan is really good and I think Harrison can be really good.

However, Bijan was billed as generational when that was never on the tape. He doesn't have the raw athletic capacity of Saquon,

Way too early to dance on his grave, but I compared him to 2023 Bijan going into the season in the sense that both guys carried narratives and reputations that did not match their tape. Neither has generational athletic traits. Harrison is not Julio or Calvin from a tools standpoint. He is a technician like Wayne or Green. I think he's likely to finish the year with respectable numbers, but the raw talent may have been overstated. Even if you want to say he's Fitz, Fitz had 10-15 pounds on him and was much stronger. He's just not in that freaky category ala Moss, Tyreek, Calvin, Julio, Andre.

Huh? Bijan looked great last year and week 1. The only thing that held him back last year was Arthur Smith.

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Bijan is really good and I think Harrison can be really good.

However, Bijan was billed as generational when that was never on the tape. He doesn't have the raw athletic capacity of Saquon, Peterson, or Tomlinson.

Tomlinson is a great comp for Bijan. It was on the tape. I don't know if he can get to the level of what may be the best RB of all time but the similar traits are obviously there.

 

[BobbyLayne]

“I wouldn't say [the Bills] were taking [Harrison] away," Murray said Sunday. "As a quarterback, obviously you're going through your reads. Sometimes the ball goes to him. That's not my job. Obviously, I have a sense and a feel for when guys don't get the ball and when they are getting the ball, but I'll leave that up to [offensive coordinator] Drew [Petzing]."

I mean it’s not Murray’s job to throw to him

Yeah even when you listen to it in context it's still such a bizarre thing to say. QBs have to be communicating with their WRs all day about everything: landmarks, choice routes, ball placement, where to be when the play goes off schedule. It comes off as so immature - bruh, you are the face of the franchise, and they just handed you the best weapon you've had in years. Try not to eff it up, eh.

 

[jtd13]

I wasn't worried about MHJ, but if I was I would feel better after seeing the bills successfully take away the deep/middle of the field against reek and waddle tonight, forcing Miami into a similar short passing game.

 

[zed2283]

“I wouldn't say [the Bills] were taking [Harrison] away," Murray said Sunday. "As a quarterback, obviously you're going through your reads. Sometimes the ball goes to him. That's not my job. Obviously, I have a sense and a feel for when guys don't get the ball and when they are getting the ball, but I'll leave that up to [offensive coordinator] Drew [Petzing]."

I mean it’s not Murray’s job to throw to him

Yeah even when you listen to it in context it's still such a bizarre thing to say. QBs have to be communicating with their WRs all day about everything: landmarks, choice routes, ball placement, where to be when the play goes off schedule. It comes off as so immature - bruh, you are the face of the franchise, and they just handed you the best weapon you've had in years. Try not to eff it up, eh.

That's why I said I blame Murray. I've watched decades of football, and especially in this day and age the only person who determines who gets the ball is the QB.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Sorry if already posted, but I was watching a podcast this morning and it was mentioned he had trouble with separation. I wouldn't be too worried, but it was mentioned. I don't even remember which podcast it was either.

Scott Barrett
@ScottBarrettDFB

Looking at all WR performances since the start of last season, Marvin Harrison Jr.'s Week 1 ranks...
+ 5th percentile in separation score (1,710 of 1,798)
+ 2nd percentile by max speed (1,699 of 1,730)

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MHJ’s max speed against Buffalo was 16.7 mph, per ESPN, which is really slow. He looked faster than that in college, and he’s 6-4 so it takes him longer to reach top speed, but definitely something to monitor.

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every MHJ route Week 1

draw your own conclusions

 

[Faust]

Field Yates
Not worried one bit about Marvin Harrison, Jr. this season.

Way too talented and way too good of a role for him to not thrive.

He’ll be balling out soon and regularly.

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Dane Brugler
Justin Jefferson: 2/26/0
CeeDee Lamb: 6/59/0
Amon-Ra St. Brown: 2/23/0

NFL debuts for WRs are hardly a predictor for long-term success. MHJ will be just fine.

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[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

Buffalo are quite clearly good as well.

 

[osubuckeyeman]

I'm sticking with him in my lineup, for better or worse. I'm hoping they scheme him touches this week. I think he can open up the offense for everyone. The kid can play, but he needs better route concepts, and Arizona needs to get him involved. I think they will have a plan for him no matter what they tell the media. I mean, it makes sense not to tell the opposing DC that we plan to get him the ball.

 

[menobrown]

So what I'm taking from all of these comments is I made a huge mistake taking him #1 in dynasty rookie draft this year?

Panic already set in my biggest money dynasty league and someone traded him last night for basically Jayden Reed and a projected late second.

I'm a long long way from being at that point, though for sure I wish I'd have taken Nabers over him.

 

[ilianawindfae]

I don't know what happened Week 1, but I imagine he's seeing team's top defensive backs?


Wouldn't be surprised to see a Rookie WR struggle. I just think he's not going to be the Day 1 Pro everyone expected. We've got spoiled recently, normally Rookie WR don't account for much, now it's expected.


Even Larry Fitzgerald's rookie stats of 59 / 780 / 8TD would be considered a disappointment by today's standards.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

So what I'm taking from all of these comments is I made a huge mistake taking him #1 in dynasty rookie draft this year?

Panic already set in my biggest money dynasty league and someone traded him last night for basically Jayden Reed and a projected late second.

I'm a long long way from being at that point, though for sure I wish I'd have taken Nabers over him.

As an MHJ owner...I'm a bit flabbergasted at the panic. Even your proclamation seems odd given

1) It's one week
2) The issues that people pointed to as to why Nabors was a rung below MHJ, and were much more deep-rooted to overall production, reared their head significantly more prominently in Week 1
3) The ARI offense actually looked pretty good against a tough D