McGarnicle
Footballguy
It's kind of crazy to say this, but when I watch Beckham play, the first guy that comes to mind is Michael Jordan. 
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WR Odell Beckham, Jr., MIA (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bob Magaw
- Start date
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
At first i though the comparison was ridiculous but the more he plays the more appropriate it is.It's kind of crazy to say this, but when I watch Beckham play, the first guy that comes to mind is Michael Jordan.
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
See, this is the hype I'm talking about (although I think/hope? this is sarcasm). Saying a rookie WRs FLOOR is a HOF WR is a bit over-the-top.Just want to point this out for my own selfish reasons. Although Marvin Harrison may be OBJ's floor now
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
He did most of that in 13 games (68/1016/9) compared to what Beckham has done in 11. No question Beckham has had an all-time great rookie year, just putting it in context.
shadyridr
Footballguy
so beckham had better numbers across the board in two less games isnt really putting anything in context
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
Totally agree. "Guys don't forget....Allen did less than Beckham in more games! Context!"Also, if you use your two eyeballs to actually watch Beckham and KAllen play football, the difference in ability is evident.
golfguy
Footballguy
well the fact that he couldn't play a full season healthy yet is also a factor as well. let's just ignore his hammy issues kept him sidelined for like 4 months.
I don't know if it is a factor or not, but to not have that wear and tear may have an impact as well on his "freshness" ala gordon when he was suspended a few games.
he has had a great run, but the hype if getting overboard. comparing him to jordan, come on.
Allen's rookie year wasn't as impressive as ODB's.
Since Cruz got hurt, Beckham has been a stud. There's no debating that.
What will his role be when Cruz gets back?
Will he have a "sophomore" slump?
Will defenses adjust to him in his second year?
Those are questions that need to be asked.
Since Cruz got hurt, Beckham has been a stud. There's no debating that.
What will his role be when Cruz gets back?
Will he have a "sophomore" slump?
Will defenses adjust to him in his second year?
Those are questions that need to be asked.
Not Gordon-Drew Bennett, last 8 games of 2004.Jed said:
The point is that a small sample size doesn't always extrapolate to season-long, or career-long numbers.
ODB has been a stud over the last 8 games. That doesn't mean he will put up those same numbers over the rest of his career, or over an entire season.
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
Bennett was not a rookie in 2004, but we get the point (although Beckham only being a rookie is a major factor in the hype he's getting).
I certainly agree that Beckham will not have a 2000 yard rec. season next year, or ever.
However, i have not seen a rookie WR dominate like this since Randy Moss. Someone who is eye-poppingly and obviously the most dangerous weapon on the field. The Claytons/Boldins/Allens of the world had impressive, very good rookie seasons. None of them were on the level as OBJ.
Banger
Footballguy
numbers may be similar but players aren't close. I had Allen in a dynasty and traded him because I felt his value wouldn't be higher. He's not a special player, he was just the last man standing.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
If there's not a Beckham 2014 highlight package set to "Baby I Got Your Money" then why does the Internet even exist?
Unreal how many FF checks this guy just delivered.
Unreal how many FF checks this guy just delivered.
Absolutely agree. 100%. If we could find ADP data for Moss' sophomore season, I'd be willing to bet that he wasn't the 1.1 pick either. But I can't find any ADP data for 1999.
I've been reading this thread for a while. Didn't post until yesterday when I said that taking ODB with the 1.1 pick next year would be ridiculous. I mentioned that I thought ODB would go in the 3rd round, maybe 2nd.
As the off-season progresses, & next year approaches, perhaps ODB would move up, but I don't see anyway he is close to the 1.1 pick.
ETA-MFL has ADP data that goes back a ways.
In 2012, Calvin was coming off a season where he averaged 100 yards AND 1 TD/game for the entire season, AND he was coming off 3 straight years of being a top WR, and his ADP was mid-late 1st round.
In 2008, Randy Moss was coming off his re-birth in NE. NFL record 23 TDs, almost 1500 receiving yards. His ADP was late first.
Both of those guys were the #1 WR from the previous season, and had established success over a long period in the NFL, each of them scored over 3 FF ppg more than the next best WR.
ODB isn't the #1 WR, has just 1/2 season of NFL success, and is about 2 ppg better than the next best WR.
The talk of him being the 1.1 pick is what's ridiculous. Discussing him as a stud WR is a perfectly valid discussion, but he's not the 1.1.
Banger
Footballguy
the question is what Cruz's role will be not what Beckham's will be. The offense will be built around Beckham and the other pieces will fall where they fall.
It's not like defenses are taking it easy on him now or he's surprising anyone ...but a question I've asked several times in here that hasn't been answered...how do you stop him? what is his weakness? He's smart and can read defenses, they can move him all around their formations, can run all routes, lightning fast. Also, let's not forget that this isn't a one way street where only the defense can improve and slow him down...he is a rookie and most rookies tend to improve as they continue to learn player personnel and their tendencies, schemes and coverages and from everything I've heard this kids a film junkie so he's going to put in the time and work to continue to improve his game. All you have to do is listen to him and you'll know that. There's a reason he's reaching out to all time greats like Rice and Jordan and Lebron, he wants to be one of the best and wants to learn from the best what it takes. Very mature kid and that mixed with his talent is an amazing and scary combination.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Evans is absolute freak and a special all around talant... I love this guy immensely and hes always a safe bet for high TDs... and he played w absolute TRASH at QB, whereas Beckham had a luxury at that position in comparison
if you have either guy youre happier than a pig in ####... beckham is just unreal, but statistically speaking, Evans numbers dont tell the whole story either... anyone who watched TB games knows that his QBs left an EASY 400+ yards and 3-4tds MINIMUM on the field, that 90 percent of the leagues qbs couldve hit him for
if we redrafted now for a dynasty... no idea who id take first? but id happy as hell i had that choice and flip a coin
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Banger
Footballguy
I keep seeing this but don't get it. Is Cobb an issue for Jordy, Holt an issue for Bruce, Wayne an issue for Harrison, is Jeffrey an issue for Marshall? It's not as if there's some static pie that they all have to take a slice from and if you add more weapons your slice gets smaller....when you add weapons to your offense the size of the pie tends to increase and instead of scoring 17 points a game you now score 27 points a game. Thus on a relative basis things can stay the same and in some cases improve for all involved.
IF TB drafts Mariota, and if it's a non-PPR (TD-heavy) dynasty league, then I would take Evans. And I'm just about the biggest ODB fan there is. Anyway, this is an ODB thread but the subject of relative draft slots came up.
What are you basing this on? Real info, or your hope/belief that this will be the case? I would like to see them do this, but you saying it will happen doesn't actually make it true.
ODB is on pace for 188 targets in a 16 game season. I understand the idea of a better offense leading to more opportunities, but if Cruz comes back, he isn't going to see 188 targets (won't see that anyway). That's the point. Whether he sees 150 targets or 100 targets due to Cruz' return (or some other number) is the idea of Cruz being a "problem."
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Of course he will regress some. If he didnt he would be a hall of famer with 3 years of stats.
But to in any way say that Cruz is a problem relative to ranking ODB, would just crazy talk.
Frankly, I don't think Cruz specifically matters for ODB at all, IMO.
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
Look up players that have suffered patellar tendon injuries. (cadillac williams, ryan williams). Cruz will be the one thats lucky to get 100 targets. I know the Giants have needs all over the field, but WR actually is probably on their wish list as well going into the offseason. Randle is still a bad route runner, and the Giants know very well that Cruz will likely never be the same. Hard to say what they think of Corey Washington at this point. Regardless, Beckham is a very good bet for an awful lot of targets next year.
Again, you believe that the coaching staff will say "let's re-build our offense around him," and maybe you're even right that they should. That doesn't mean that they will.
I think the Broncos shouldn't have tried be a run-heavy team, but they did, and their offense suffered greatly.
I think that the Colts shouldn't keep giving the ball to Trent Richardson, but they continued to do so until recently.
I think that the KC Chiefs (before Reid) should have featured Jamaal Charles more, but they didn't.
What we think should happen doesn't always happen. So forgive me if I try to determine whether information posted is actual information, or just the hopes of posters.
Then this would fall under the qualifier of a "healthy" Cruz. Obviously, if Cruz isn't able to return to his top form, he will have a much smaller impact on ODB than if he were healthy.
This is just silly. Of course nobody here has the "Giants 2015 Season Gameplan" at their disposal.
So what "actual" information are you basing your take on? What actual information are you using to best project ODB moving forward?
Banger
Footballguy
It's a strong belief based on listening to the team and watching him on the field. They are already building their offense around him like they never did for Cruz and Cruz coming off an injury I don't believe will change anything. It obviously remains to be seen what impact Cruz will have coming off a serious injury. When the team and guys around it are saying they haven't seen a player with his impact since Lawrence Taylor it speaks volumes that they see him as an impact player and as such will utilize him as such.
Banger
Footballguy
I don't know that you can assume that he won't. I think he's one of the best wr's in the league and will be targetted as such. Right now he's being targetted at 11.75/game...through 15 weeks A. Brown is at 11.4, Thomas is 10.9, Jones 10.5, Edelman, VJax, Nelson @ 9.6. He may have a slight down tick but he's going to be up there at the top of the list because they are going to throw it to him at the LOS as well as all over the field. With the impact that he has when the ball is in his hands why wouldn't they try as much as possible to put it there? They are running reverses with him, he's returning punts...they know he has game breaking explosiveness and as they've said you need to get the ball in his hands.
Banger
Footballguy
they've already done it. By building the offense around doesn't mean that only he will get the ball. Obviously they will still run the ball and throw the ball to others..but you can already see that they are building multiple plays into the offense to get him the ball in all spots..throwing the ball, running reverses, a few throws at the LOS each game and using him to draw coverage.
I haven't predicted anything, other than he won't go pick 1.1, and that I think he will go in the 3rd round, maybe 2nd. Those thoughts are based on my FF experience and how RBs tend to be over-valued in the early rounds.
I've said that Cruz, IF healthy would impact ODB, because his targets would probably decrease (but they'll probably decrease anyway). I was responding to absolute comments like "the Giants offense will be built around Beckham" when I posted.
Again, I think Beckham has been a stud, but that doesn't change the fact that we should look objectively at the player and the situation.
Okay, listening to the team. What comments from the team have led you to this strong belief?
I'm not challenging you, just asking for more substance. If the Giants have made comments that indicate this, that is good for his FF stock, IMO.
Because it's an absurdly high number.
In Harrison's record setting year, he had 205 targets. He never had another season with 188.
Is it possible that Beckham gets that many targets? Sure.
It it wise to predict, project, or expect that many? No.
The offense has been built around him because their RB has been hurt a lot this year, their WR1 is out for the season, their WR2 has been a huge dissappointment, and their D stinks, so they've been behind, a lot.
IF they have a better running game, better defense, other capable receiving options, you still think ODB is going to be as productive as he has during this 8 game stretch?
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
He's also been compared to Randy Moss, Jesus Christ, Buddha, and Marvin Harrison, so it all averages out just fine.Kool-Aid Larry said:
SpruceGoose
Footballguy
What cant he do?
Reminds me of the old Mr. Perfect promos the WWF used to cut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzWTSzkYmxo
Reminds me of the old Mr. Perfect promos the WWF used to cut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzWTSzkYmxo
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
Too long. What can I say, it's the holidays. It's quiet at the office.BruceAlmighty said:
Banger
Footballguy
quotes from Harry Carson and others that have been around the team for a long time comparing impact to LT. That's a shocking comparison and not one that people would make lightly quite frankly so when I hear things like that my ears perk up. Not that I think it's unjustified, more just what some people think of his talent and abilities...it doesn't get any higher than comparisons to LT with respect to the Giants.
I don't have any direct quotes on hand, it's more the perception I've gotten from reading 100+ ODB related articles over the past year. Old man Coughlin has even "gushed" at times for him when talking about his talent..with most players he responds with his robotic, generic quotes about having work to do, need to get better, etc..but his quotes are more effusive with him and he refers to the talent and great ability...he's not putting him in Canton yet but you can see the difference if you've followed Coughlin over the years.
At the end of the day, this game is often about reading the tea leaves and making your judgements based on what you see and read and then determining if it's real or not. It's not an exact science and very rarely are coaches going to come out and definitively tell us exactly what we want to know. I'm just trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together and I absolutely could be wrong (I'd be shocked) which has happened many times before and will happen many more times going forward.
Banger
Footballguy
I wouldn't project that many and I wouldn't project that he gets 2,000 yards and 16 tds. I do think he'll be in the top 5 or so in terms of targets though...10ish a game.
fredsavage
Footballguy
ODB will be a first round pick no brainier whomever disagrees is delusional. A lot of people got burned badly drafting RB high this year, not so much for the safer WRs. I'd also wager that guys who utterly dominate during fantasy playoffs get a healthy boost come draft day relative to players with similar year end stats.
If you aren't completely and utterly enamored win Beckham's talent you need to find a new hobby. The sample size is big enough. The Cruz argument is a joke. Julio, AJ, Dez, Calvin all play and excel alongside better receivers than post-injury Cruz.
If you aren't completely and utterly enamored win Beckham's talent you need to find a new hobby. The sample size is big enough. The Cruz argument is a joke. Julio, AJ, Dez, Calvin all play and excel alongside better receivers than post-injury Cruz.
CR69
Footballguy
"I'm the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be."
Odell "The Hitman" Beckham Jr
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Right. Hell , tbey might give him 20 targets a game next year.
Call me crazy but #1 wrs get a lot of targets no matter the gameplan. Shocking i know
ghostguy123
Footballguy
This
Cruz, playing or not, would only effect targets for the other guys. Unless he keeps stalling drives with his drops....
dcgangstas
Footballguy
It really is appropriate.At first i though the comparison was ridiculous but the more he plays the more appropriate it is.It's kind of crazy to say this, but when I watch Beckham play, the first guy that comes to mind is Michael Jordan.
When Eli heaves the ball towards the young phenom, the anticipation from the crowd of seeing something memorable, something they will tell their children and grand-children about is palpable even through the television.
That, my friends is Jordan-esque.
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IheartGuinness
Footballguy
It really is appropriate.At first i though the comparison was ridiculous but the more he plays the more appropriate it is.It's kind of crazy to say this, but when I watch Beckham play, the first guy that comes to mind is Michael Jordan.
When Eli heaves the ball towards the young phenom, the anticipation from the crowd of seeing something memorable, something they will tell their children and grand-children about is palpable even through the television.
That, my friends is Jordan-esque.
