Yes so many football fans don't know really how good this guy is. Case in point Bob missing the boat on him.I'm pretty sure Davis has been isolated in single coverage more than any other CB in the NFL the past 2+ years and despite that hasn't given up a TD pass in that time span.He is criminally underrated.Agree with this, Davis is every bit as good as any CB in the game.Bob, you must not watch a ton of Indy games. Davis locks onto WR's and it is shameful that you don't see him as one of the best CB's in the game. You need to watch the film of how good he was last year. Completely missing the boat on how good he is.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
As for Watkins, it was a tough game. He will have a frustrating year for owners as he will have some weeks where he blows up and he may be sitting on benches when that happens.
Ive been here since page one friend.Comical that you waited a week to reply.Nope.. pretty clear on where I stand.You keep trying to straddle the line between dismissing him and saying enough mildly positive stuff that you can come back in here and claim you weren't wrong about him.Somehow people all along this thread have taken away that I am hating on Sammy. Never the case.. I have repeatedly, repeatedly said he is good or very good.
Quick, what is the one universal grouping for the top tier in actual football for all positions, CB, S, LB (inside/outside), DE, DT, QB, RB, WR, TE, OT, G and C?Agree with this, Davis is every bit as good as any CB in the game.Bob, you must not watch a ton of Indy games. Davis locks onto WR's and it is shameful that you don't see him as one of the best CB's in the game. You need to watch the film of how good he was last year. Completely missing the boat on how good he is.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
As for Watkins, it was a tough game. He will have a frustrating year for owners as he will have some weeks where he blows up and he may be sitting on benches when that happens.
I am curious about your theory that Davis doesn't get as many chances to make plays because he is so good he is rarely tested (compared to Revis and Sherman?). It is a good question worth putting to the test with target data.I'm pretty sure Davis has been isolated in single coverage more than any other CB in the NFL the past 2+ years and despite that hasn't given up a TD pass in that time span. He is criminally underrated.Agree with this, Davis is every bit as good as any CB in the game.Bob, you must not watch a ton of Indy games. Davis locks onto WR's and it is shameful that you don't see him as one of the best CB's in the game. You need to watch the film of how good he was last year. Completely missing the boat on how good he is.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
As for Watkins, it was a tough game. He will have a frustrating year for owners as he will have some weeks where he blows up and he may be sitting on benches when that happens.
I don't see things as black and white or in such rigid terms.It would be a fallacy to think because some presidential historical appraisals are off the mark (some like Carter?), that they must all be tainted. If somebody praises Lincoln, I would have to agree. Are you suggesting Revis and Sherman are overrated, undeserving of Pro Bowls and somehow just got lucky? If so, agree to disagree. I do think Sherman benefits from the top safety in the game having his back, but also think he could excel in alternative schemes. Do you think Merlin Olsen and Bruce Matthews won something like 14 Pro Bowls each because they got really lucky, it was completely random and haphazard and all undeserved (I realize stars sometimes coast on reputation in their latter career, but not for the entirety). If the answer is no on some these, than maybe you aren't as disdainful of the Pro Bowl as you sound like.The Pro Bowl is a joke. By your measure Peterson is the best CB in the NFL, yet he was clearly the worst of that group last year. Hell, I love Peterson but he was bad last year. Bad for his standards and nothing near the top CB.Davis made the Pro Bowl in '14, so it isn't like he receives no recognition (also around #60 in the top 100 poll, not that authoritative and informal, but a sign he has the respect of his peers).How often were Revis, Sherman and Davis thrown at last season? It is kind of an empirical question, we can check the hypothesis that Revis and Sherman receive more recognition because they are inferior in coverage and therefore thrown at a lot and given the chance to make plays, and Davis is so superior he is rarely tested.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
One reason Davis tends to not be commonly cited as the top CB in the league may have to do with contracts being viewed as a proxy for talent. For instance:
Revis - 5 yr, $70 million, 39 guaranteed('15)
Sherman - 4 yr, $56 mil, 40 guaranteed ('14)
Peterson- 5 yr, $70 mil, $48 guaranteed ('14)
Haden - 5 yr, $67 mil, 22 guaranteed ('14)
Davis - 4 yr, $39 mil, $20 guaranteed ('14)
Davis is getting half the guaranteed money of Revis and Sherman.
* Rightly or wrongly, Pro Bowls and All-Pro recognition are also generally viewed as another proxy for excellence. If you are seriously looking for reasons why Davis isn't as well known nationally, these could be more substantive reasons than ESPN. Ya think?
Revis has 6 Pro Bowls and 4 All-Pros
Sherman has 2 Pro Bowls and 3 All-Pros (not sure how the latter higher than former?)
Davis doesn't get a lot of picks, which hurts his name value and positional value. Also, he's not playing on a good overall defense, which again hurts his name value. He doesn't posses the ball skills of other top CBs, but that doesn't mean he isn't better at coverage. He blankets guys but doesn't make you pay as often. There is certainly something to be said for that. For sheer coverage, man to man. He's on an island by himself IMO.
The NFL is about the here and now. I don't care what reputations Revis and Sherman have. Every game you watch and every season is an opportunity to examine new information in an objective way. Of course these things matter if you're an owner and about to sign over millions of dollars in a contract. The problem with most of the media sources when it comes to things like this is it's almost exclusively reactive. For instance just now are people calling Davis an ascendant player. The issue with this is it's largely out dated. Davis has been this player for over a year, basically 2 years. He started that accent in 2013. CB is an odd position for most fans to examine because more often than not they only get noticed when they make tremendous plays or terrible plays. Given that Davis lacks high end ball skills I don't think this plays very well to him. He's going to lock you up, but make few INTs so most just won't take notice. To be honest, I've been trying to tell people how good Davis is for about a year now because I watch the games and it's just flat obvious. I don't mean this to say others don't watch the games but I just don't think 99% of the people out there care enough about CB/DB play to look closely and that's understandable. For me however, it's the best part of the game.Bob Magaw said:Lastly, you just listed a bunch or reasons that you seem to understand very well why Davis isn't commonly viewed in Revis and Sherman's tier (or Peterson or Haden, for that matter). I'm not seeing why it is so surprising that he is, as you put it, "criminally underrated". I get that Davis appears to be in the midst of a nice upward trajectory and is seemingly an ascendant player. But the fact that Revis and Sherman have been doing it longer is a non-trivial distinction, and is a good explanation to help understand, for the purposes of the thread, why it is no mystery that they may be more commonly held in higher esteem, by both league personnel execs and fans.
Good point. He certainly had issues last season and in the offseason.I have a feeling Sammy may have been more injured than we were all led to believe.
I think this is the shortest post you have ever made.I am curious about your theory that Davis doesn't get as many chances to make plays because he is so good he is rarely tested (compared to Revis and Sherman?). It is a good question worth putting to the test with target data.I'm pretty sure Davis has been isolated in single coverage more than any other CB in the NFL the past 2+ years and despite that hasn't given up a TD pass in that time span.He is criminally underrated.Agree with this, Davis is every bit as good as any CB in the game.Bob, you must not watch a ton of Indy games. Davis locks onto WR's and it is shameful that you don't see him as one of the best CB's in the game. You need to watch the film of how good he was last year. Completely missing the boat on how good he is.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
As for Watkins, it was a tough game. He will have a frustrating year for owners as he will have some weeks where he blows up and he may be sitting on benches when that happens.
That's more like it.The NFL is about the here and now. I don't care what reputations Revis and Sherman have. Every game you watch and every season is an opportunity to examine new information in an objective way. Of course these things matter if you're an owner and about to sign over millions of dollars in a contract.The problem with most of the media sources when it comes to things like this is it's almost exclusively reactive. For instance just now are people calling Davis an ascendant player. The issue with this is it's largely out dated. Davis has been this player for over a year, basically 2 years. He started that accent in 2013. CB is an odd position for most fans to examine because more often than not they only get noticed when they make tremendous plays or terrible plays. Given that Davis lacks high end ball skills I don't think this plays very well to him. He's going to lock you up, but make few INTs so most just won't take notice. To be honest, I've been trying to tell people how good Davis is for about a year now because I watch the games and it's just flat obvious. I don't mean this to say others don't watch the games but I just don't think 99% of the people out there care enough about CB/DB play to look closely and that's understandable. For me however, it's the best part of the game.Bob Magaw said:Lastly, you just listed a bunch or reasons that you seem to understand very well why Davis isn't commonly viewed in Revis and Sherman's tier (or Peterson or Haden, for that matter). I'm not seeing why it is so surprising that he is, as you put it, "criminally underrated". I get that Davis appears to be in the midst of a nice upward trajectory and is seemingly an ascendant player. But the fact that Revis and Sherman have been doing it longer is a non-trivial distinction, and is a good explanation to help understand, for the purposes of the thread, why it is no mystery that they may be more commonly held in higher esteem, by both league personnel execs and fans.
I find it odd that so many can't separate attributes when having these types of discussions. If you want to say there are other CBs who are better overall players, fine have at it. I won't really argue it that much. I would still argue Davis is in the debate, though. Schematically, comparing a guy like Davis and Sherman is almost silly. They don't play anything close to the same roles even though they play the same position.
I also find it ironic that if we look at the group of guys playing at a very high level, according to the data I provided, Davis plays with the clear worst supporting cast. The only other guy who can claim similarly putrid S play is Norman in Car (though his front 7 is light years better and that also matters), who I've also mentioned as a top CB in recent months. There really are no shut down CBs anymore. The modern game has essentially removed it. CBs all get more help today than top CBs of the past because the rules make it easier to pass, harder to cover. Schematically, There are guys left on a island more than others, Davis is one of the those guys. The major difference is that Davis can pretty much never count on his S help because his S's suck. Revis played with outstanding S's in NE. Again, the only guy on that list who might be in the running for equally bad S play is Norman.
So, if you want to talk about overall best CB, name recognition and things of that nature we can. If you want to talk about just pure coverage however, Davis is elite and the numbers back it. Again, this guy hasn't given up a TD pass in over 2 years. That is despite horrible S play, a below average front 207 in front of him and more targets than some other guys like Sherman and Revis. The body of work is there but if you don't want to see it fine.
Nobody is going to sell him cheap one week into the season.such an awesome time to buy low on Watkins
I'm on board because it's the only board I have at this timeOn the bright side, it looks like there's a decent chance that Tyrod Taylor won't suck.
I'm still on board this train.
First, thanks for that stat links above.Second, in the three COVERAGE links you furnished:The NFL is about the here and now. I don't care what reputations Revis and Sherman have. Every game you watch and every season is an opportunity to examine new information in an objective way. Of course these things matter if you're an owner and about to sign over millions of dollars in a contract. The problem with most of the media sources when it comes to things like this is it's almost exclusively reactive. For instance just now are people calling Davis an ascendant player. The issue with this is it's largely out dated. Davis has been this player for over a year, basically 2 years. He started that accent in 2013. CB is an odd position for most fans to examine because more often than not they only get noticed when they make tremendous plays or terrible plays. Given that Davis lacks high end ball skills I don't think this plays very well to him. He's going to lock you up, but make few INTs so most just won't take notice. To be honest, I've been trying to tell people how good Davis is for about a year now because I watch the games and it's just flat obvious. I don't mean this to say others don't watch the games but I just don't think 99% of the people out there care enough about CB/DB play to look closely and that's understandable. For me however, it's the best part of the game.Bob Magaw said:Lastly, you just listed a bunch or reasons that you seem to understand very well why Davis isn't commonly viewed in Revis and Sherman's tier (or Peterson or Haden, for that matter). I'm not seeing why it is so surprising that he is, as you put it, "criminally underrated". I get that Davis appears to be in the midst of a nice upward trajectory and is seemingly an ascendant player. But the fact that Revis and Sherman have been doing it longer is a non-trivial distinction, and is a good explanation to help understand, for the purposes of the thread, why it is no mystery that they may be more commonly held in higher esteem, by both league personnel execs and fans.
I find it odd that so many can't separate attributes when having these types of discussions. If you want to say there are other CBs who are better overall players, fine have at it. I won't really argue it that much. I would still argue Davis is in the debate, though. Schematically, comparing a guy like Davis and Sherman is almost silly. They don't play anything close to the same roles even though they play the same position.
I also find it ironic that if we look at the group of guys playing at a very high level, according to the data I provided, Davis plays with the clear worst supporting cast. The only other guy who can claim similarly putrid S play is Norman in Car (though his front 7 is light years better and that also matters), who I've also mentioned as a top CB in recent months. There really are no shut down CBs anymore. The modern game has essentially removed it. CBs all get more help today than top CBs of the past because the rules make it easier to pass, harder to cover. Schematically, There are guys left on a island more than others, Davis is one of the those guys. The major difference is that Davis can pretty much never count on his S help because his S's suck. Revis played with outstanding S's in NE. Again, the only guy on that list who might be in the running for equally bad S play is Norman.
So, if you want to talk about overall best CB, name recognition and things of that nature we can. If you want to talk about just pure coverage however, Davis is elite and the numbers back it. Again, this guy hasn't given up a TD pass in over 2 years. That is despite horrible S play, a below average front 207 in front of him and more targets than some other guys like Sherman and Revis. The body of work is there but if you don't want to see it fine.
Bob Magaw said:I am curious about your theory that Davis doesn't get as many chances to make plays because he is so good he is rarely tested (compared to Revis and Sherman?). It is a good question worth putting to the test with target data.I'm pretty sure Davis has been isolated in single coverage more than any other CB in the NFL the past 2+ years and despite that hasn't given up a TD pass in that time span. He is criminally underrated.Agree with this, Davis is every bit as good as any CB in the game.Bob, you must not watch a ton of Indy games. Davis locks onto WR's and it is shameful that you don't see him as one of the best CB's in the game. You need to watch the film of how good he was last year. Completely missing the boat on how good he is.Davis is the best cover CB in the league not amazes me that he dipoles the get recognition. I guess because nobody talks about it on ESPN it isn't true. I've been saying it for 2 years now.
Davis is unreal good. The problem is and has been what you saw today. People don't throw at him because the rest of the Indy secondary has been garbage.
As for Watkins, it was a tough game. He will have a frustrating year for owners as he will have some weeks where he blows up and he may be sitting on benches when that happens.
trying to trade Dez for Sammy...pantherclub said:Nobody is going to sell him cheap one week into the season.TripItUp said:such an awesome time to buy low on Watkins
How about Sherman, point taken they have different roles within their respective schemes.I think Davis played better than Revis last year. He's elite IMO.
Sherman is elite as well.How about Sherman, point taken they have different roles within their respective schemes.I think Davis played better than Revis last year. He's elite IMO.
At any rate, another thing which can be tracked this season, for those with an interest in defense in general, and coverage skill specifically.
I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
To paraphrase Parcells, Ryan is in the winning business. Fantasy football is the last thing on his mind.I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
http://billsmafia.com/2015/09/15/breaking-down-tyrod-taylor-defensive-dominance-in-buffalo-bills-victory-over-indianapolis-colts/Last year’s first-round pick Sammy Watkins wasn’t a factor in the passing game, as he ran go routes on 16 of his 21 routes, acting as a decoy against Vontae Davis, clearing out space for Percy Harvin and Charles Clay in the middle of the field and on underneath routes.
If Rex Ryan is in the "Winning" business, he may want to consider finding a new occupation.To paraphrase Parcells, Ryan is in the winning business. Fantasy football is the last thing on his mind.I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
Well at least he didn't break his foot...http://billsmafia.com/2015/09/15/breaking-down-tyrod-taylor-defensive-dominance-in-buffalo-bills-victory-over-indianapolis-colts/Last years first-round pick Sammy Watkins wasnt a factor in the passing game, as he ran go routes on 16 of his 21 routes, acting as a decoy against Vontae Davis, clearing out space for Percy Harvin and Charles Clay in the middle of the field and on underneath routes.
Buf will take what defenses give them and, I suspect, play conservative ball with inexperienced QB and tough tough defense. Watkins seems more like a Terrance Williams type now...will draw double coverage/defensive attention while others rack up yards and TD opportunities. Watkins is more talented, but I think I'd rather have Williams because his offense and QB will be more aggressive.I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
Sammy Watkins the next Terrance Williams.Buf will take what defenses give them and, I suspect, play conservative ball with inexperienced QB and tough tough defense. Watkins seems more like a Terrance Williams type now...will draw double coverage/defensive attention while others rack up yards and TD opportunities. Watkins is more talented, but I think I'd rather have Williams because his offense and QB will be more aggressive.I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
For realIf Rex Ryan is in the "Winning" business, he may want to consider finding a new occupation.To paraphrase Parcells, Ryan is in the winning business. Fantasy football is the last thing on his mind.I don't know. Part of me worries they might just be content to let Watkins take 2 defenders away and attack the rest of the field. Worked this week.Any relevant background on what to expect from the OC in making such adjustments (which I agree with, my hope as well).
a little bit, but your concerns are real.Ugh, thought I got a steal when I grabbed Watkins as my #3 WR in my auction redraft league. Now, I'm not even sure he's worth holding onto, especially with some decent PPR WR options floating out there. I'm guessing Watkins will get some love going forward, but I think the QB and offensive philosophy will severely limit his ceiling. I think he'll struggle to finish in the top 30-36 in PPR, which means he's not even on the WR #3/Flex landscape. Maybe I'm overreacting to week 1. Am I overreacting?