I don't think its a stretch to say Worthy could have had something like 10-140-2. Its probably not hyperbole to say KC probably wins the game if he doesn't go down.Based on the targets Hollywood got after he was out Worthy probably would have had a monster game.
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WR Xavier Worthy, KC (5 Viewers)
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jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Huh? I didn’t use my injury to diagnose a 22 year old athlete. I posted the videos of established medical professionals that have experience with sports injuries and just mentioned which way I was leaning because of the challenges that I’m having with a similar injury. One of the sports injury doctors predicted a 2-3 week thing, the other predicted a 6+ week thing and it all comes down to the stability of the shoulder. Go and see how long Julius Randle missed with a dislocated shoulder. Anyhow, I apologize if mentioning my struggle with a similar injury offends anybody. I was just posting videos of opinions of medical professionals that I thought some might find useful.
Chaka
Footballguy
And he could have gone 9-87-0, or 3-21-0 and they still lose.I don't think its a stretch to say Worthy could have had something like 10-140-2. Its probably not hyperbole to say KC probably wins the game if he doesn't go down.Based on the targets Hollywood got after he was out Worthy probably would have had a monster game.
He played three snaps, an incompletion, a rush for 0 yards and getting knocked out by an old, overrated, jealous, petty teammate who needs another contract to finance his future divorce.
We can't simply take Hollywood's usage and transfer it to Worthy. Maybe the split would have been 9-8, or 10-7 but, I think it's just as fair to suggest Worthy would not have seen 16 targets, or even close to that just because Brown did in an emergency.
We know as much about what Worthy can do on the field today as we did on Thursday.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
actually we sort of can. After the game the Chiefs said Worthy was a massive part of their offensive game plan. So…. Yeah.
I would disagree with everything you said about Kelce. Especially the financing a divorce part. If such a scenario occurred, he'd be leaving with hundreds of millions of dollars more than he's made in his life. The difference between Swift money and Kelce money is WAY bigger than the difference between Kelce money and 16-year-old part timer at McDonald's money.And he could have gone 9-87-0, or 3-21-0 and they still lose.I don't think its a stretch to say Worthy could have had something like 10-140-2. Its probably not hyperbole to say KC probably wins the game if he doesn't go down.Based on the targets Hollywood got after he was out Worthy probably would have had a monster game.
He played three snaps, an incompletion, a rush for 0 yards and getting knocked out by an old, overrated, jealous, petty teammate who needs another contract to finance his future divorce.
We can't simply take Hollywood's usage and transfer it to Worthy. Maybe the split would have been 9-8, or 10-7 but, I think it's just as fair to suggest Worthy would not have seen 16 targets, or even close to that just because Brown did in an emergency.
We know as much about what Worthy can do on the field today as we did on Thursday.
I also don't think Kelce is overrated, jealous, or petty. It was an accident, where a guy got hurt colliding with a guy who has almost 100 pounds on him. It happens.
I think Worthy was going to be the centerpiece of the gameplan. He played 3 snaps, and he was the featured player on 2 of them. Maybe its a reach to extrapolate that to Brown's level, but everything KC has told us is Worthy>>Brown. Unfortunately, that chance to be the clear cut #1 WR will at the very least be shortened, if not gone altogether.
Gotta take that stuff with a grain of salt. They got beat and that was an easy excuse that will take a lot of heat off of other players and coaching staff. It would have been a bad move for them not to say that even if it weren't true.actually we sort of can. After the game the Chiefs said Worthy was a massive part of their offensive game plan. So…. Yeah.
Chaka
Footballguy
So...no. That is entirely a throwaway comment. He is a supposed to be a big part of the offense. So you assume Hollywood would have received zero targets if Worthy was healthy? Of course, not.actually we sort of can. After the game the Chiefs said Worthy was a massive part of their offensive game plan. So…. Yeah.
Worthy, in a perfect world would have seen 10-ish targets (8-12), which is WR1 volume. But the idea he would have seen 16 is magical thinking.
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fully agree. it was just a dumb accident.
in my experience those types of collisions (friendly fire) are the most likely scenarios where an injury occurs. clearly they didnt see each other and so were unprepared to take a hit.
once again the sample size is too small to truly draw conclusions, but it would make sense that they would try to establish him as starter. In his second season I half expected a step forward and that he would be fantasy relevant - Especially early with Rice suspended.
it just wasnt meant to be. quite unfortunate for him as this was a big opportunity to show he can be a dependable performer on offense.
Chaka
Footballguy
Come on now, her pre-nup is so iron clad Lodge had to start making their skillets out of recycled plastic. Iron Maiden had to change their name to Sustainably Sources Common Earth Metal Maiden. And, I don't know it for a fact but, I know it's true, her lawyers came to the FFA and disappeared The Iron Sheik #poura40I would disagree with everything you said about Kelce. Especially the financing a divorce part. If such a scenario occurred, he'd be leaving with hundreds of millions of dollars more than he's made in his life. The difference between Swift money and Kelce money is WAY bigger than the difference between Kelce money and 16-year-old part timer at McDonald's money.And he could have gone 9-87-0, or 3-21-0 and they still lose.I don't think its a stretch to say Worthy could have had something like 10-140-2. Its probably not hyperbole to say KC probably wins the game if he doesn't go down.Based on the targets Hollywood got after he was out Worthy probably would have had a monster game.
He played three snaps, an incompletion, a rush for 0 yards and getting knocked out by an old, overrated, jealous, petty teammate who needs another contract to finance his future divorce.
We can't simply take Hollywood's usage and transfer it to Worthy. Maybe the split would have been 9-8, or 10-7 but, I think it's just as fair to suggest Worthy would not have seen 16 targets, or even close to that just because Brown did in an emergency.
We know as much about what Worthy can do on the field today as we did on Thursday.
I also don't think Kelce is overrated, jealous, or petty. It was an accident, where a guy got hurt colliding with a guy who has almost 100 pounds on him. It happens.
I think Worthy was going to be the centerpiece of the gameplan. He played 3 snaps, and he was the featured player on 2 of them. Maybe its a reach to extrapolate that to Brown's level, but everything KC has told us is Worthy>>Brown. Unfortunately, that chance to be the clear cut #1 WR will at the very least be shortened, if not gone altogether.
Kelce had to sign over the rights to his hemoglobin, and the hemoglobin of any of his relatives up to three times removed.
He'll be selling Amway products trying to convince people he was someone important once, if he ever considered divorcing her.
Sorry, what were we talking about?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Worthy would have had 100 targets and 85 receptions. I’m an optimist and always assume the best.So...no. That is entirely a throwaway comment. He is a supposed to be a big part of the offense. So you assume Hollywood would have received zero targets if Worthy was healthy? Of course, not.actually we sort of can. After the game the Chiefs said Worthy was a massive part of their offensive game plan. So…. Yeah.
Worthy, in a perfect world would have seen 10-ish targets (8-12), which is WR1 volume. But the idea he would have seen 16 is magical thinking.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Our opinion on the size of wrs has changed through the years. Great wrs don't need to be the size of Michael Irvin and Terrell Owens. But. 165 lbs?
rockaction
Footballguy
Matt Harmon is really good with this stuff. This is his comment.
"Overall, Xavier Worthy has clear areas where he wins and deficiencies. Most of the latter are brought on by his size and that’s just a part of the bargain. He shines in straightforward places where he needs to in the role the Chiefs crafted for him in Year 1. That makes him a bit of a tricky evaluation because he’s just not like most normal No. 1 NFL receivers. That’s okay if he never becomes that player exactly, he can still be excellent with what Reid and co. need out of a player in the wide receiver room. It’ll just make him an interesting ceiling-based debate over the course of his career."
He also says, in regard to his size, "His rate of plays in space also went up in the back half [of the season]. If a defender comes at him squared up, he’s not going to power through that tackle attempt. That’s just the reality of his frame. However, his sense of angles and spatial awareness got better with more time on the NFL field. That needs to continue in order to maximize this role.
The other area where Worthy’s size will likely always show up is at the catch point. He made some mental errors in tight coverage too, which can’t happen because the margin for error is so small. His 50% contested catch rate is lower than you want it but you do need to credit him for some big wins in this area in playoff games. That low mark was still an advancement from his disastrous 18.2% contested catch rate in his prospect profile."
Harmon goes on to say this, "Either way, Reception Perception will show that while they [Worthy and Rice] are different players, they both need some of the same role-catering that Andy Reid is so good at providing for his receivers."
He's a coach and Mahomes creation. His percentages of getting open against man, zone, and press (especially man and press) are just terrible. He needs to be the primary guy and have either designed plays or have him go deep. Harmon points out he runs virtually no intermediate routes.
eta* That said, he does win a lot of his deep routes and Harmon says he got a lot better in space as his rookie year progressed. That's a very positive note for him.
I just get the sense that if we're dreaming about him and Rice co-existing then we might just be dreaming. It sounds possible? I'll cite authority again on that one: "What will be really interesting to track is how Worthy and Rashee Rice work in tandem when they’re both healthy and on the field. We didn’t see much of them firing off as high-volume players simultaneously. When Worthy broke out late in the year, he played a role that was similar to Rice’s statistically and on the surface. However, he does not win on the same routes where Rice piled up production over the short middle of the field. Either way, Reception Perception will show that while they are different players, they both need some of the same role-catering that Andy Reid is so good at providing for his receivers."
And so we shall see.
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FarFromHome
Footballguy
That's a good post and solid read.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't like one of my posts at all so I deleted it. I want to be constructive rather than come off negatively. I think if we're making assertions and we make them often and in the face of overwhelming evidence that it would behoove us to say why and drill down and explain to the reader what we're basing this on other than, "I follow the league intensely and have a good eye." And more than even just observational reason no matter how brilliant. Like, give us something to do with Xs and Os that us dilettantes might be missing. Find an authority that explains in great detail why you're thinking what you are thinking.
But anyway, my post didn't help and this one might so here goes in hopes that we all see it and try to live it in a positive way.
But anyway, my post didn't help and this one might so here goes in hopes that we all see it and try to live it in a positive way.
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massraider
Footballguy
Exactly
'Just a random injury' happens a lot more when a guy is this small.
I love Worthy, but his size caps his upside.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Ridiculous some of the responses you received. Sorry you hurt your shoulder, especially under those circumstances. People can really suck sometimes, and I am not just referring to your assailant. Fortunately, not everyone does. Get better dude, full and quick. Worthy, same.
rockaction
Footballguy
I never understood Tank Dell, Tutu Atwell, and a few others. Hockey I can squint really hard and maybe it's okay, but I still have a hard time seeing it there. These are contact sports with big guys at high speeds. Kelce ruined that dude last night.
These aren't even weights that are safe for varsity high schoolers in Texas to have. It's unwise to make these guys first-round picks or invest time and hopes upon them. Their collarbones get destroyed with normal hits because these guys just aren't big enough. I'm not a huge guy. I'm 6'0" and 188, give or take five depending on the day. So it's not like I'm some formerly big guy jock or a guy that was a hanger-on of big jocks in high school or college. There's nothing aesthetically pleasing to me about bigness or playing tough or being big. I don't care. I love finesse hockey players and fast and lean football players. I watch the game because, frankly, I'm a speed junkie. I am Al Davis through and through.
But the sport has parameters and size is one of those categories that has them. This kind of body often just doesn't fly in this sport. Stop slamming the square peg into the round hole. And you're going to back those guys up with Hollywood Brown and Tyquan Thornton? That's my takeaway, too, the more that I think about it. What is Veach thinking with this roster?
They're fit to finish last in their division with this construction. We'll see. Their defense is tough. Perhaps that's how they win again. The offense is a joke. Thankfully they have Patrick Mahomes (for the time being—stop running, Patrick).
Chaka
Footballguy
FarFromHome
Footballguy
He's tiny, small and weak, but super fast and is with a smart play caller who knows how to use him. Ha ha
rockaction
Footballguy
Tiny dude who is inhibited by his lack of technique and lack of size but can be schemed into a very effective player by Andy Reid because of his speed. Capped ceiling and needs plays designed for him, but is improving and can be a worthwhile player in this situation.
Chaka
Footballguy
"shoved a little"?
LawFitz
Footballguy
TampaMike19
Footballguy
Took him over Tet due to Mahomes and the early season breakout potential and this was about as much of a train wreck start one could hope for. The size definitely affected his injury because he’s just not built to take full on collisions like that but many people in life aren’t built for that. A speedster went full speed into someone 100 lbs bigger than him. Basically a car crash at 50-60 miles an hour without a seat belt. He will succeed in today’s nfl because he is slippery and too quick / fast to get into massive collisions but I’m still wondering why the hell these two were so close to each other on their routes to begin with. Just felt like a very sloppy early season play
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
So we still know nothing here?
Is this a fair summary?
Best case 4-6 weeks, worst case season ended.
Is this a fair summary?
Best case 4-6 weeks, worst case season ended.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It's probably a 10+ hour flight, earliest we'll know anything is today, maybe not til tomorrow
cdclopper
Footballguy
10 hour flight with a hurt shoulder, that's a bummer
It's a normal, very effective scheme. You have two receivers run crossing routes close enough to touch each other in man coverage with the goal that their defenders get caught up in the wash or run into tech other resulting in one or both of the receivers getting open. In fact, many coaches actually have the receivers touch hands going past each other to get them close.
Looked to me like they both made some errors on that route with their vision.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Probably best case scenario for us Worthy shareholders. Might only be a week or 2.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
That’s not quite what Rappaport said (they omitted some pertinent information). ”—he said that the most likely outcome is that he returns at some point of the season wearing a brace and that a second opinion/consultation is being done. Timeline is unknown at this time.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Still better than a separation, an AC joint injury, or a broken collarbone.
He still could miss multiple weeks. I’m not Pollyanna about this. But knowing this injury well, he could come out next week and play wearing a brace. Once the shoulder’s popped back in it becomes a pain tolerance thing.
The hidden complications are if he hurt his rotator cuff, or some other associated injury that would limit his ability to catch.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Absolutely—and I don’t doubt that. Keep in mind—i have a 66% ownership share of Worthy in my leagues. I want to make clear that I am absolutely hoping and rooting for the best possible outcome here . I’m also being objective here—and being that I’ve been dealing with shoulder specialists and orthopedics for over a year for my shoulder— I think some objectivity needs to come into play here. When you violently dislocate a shoulder—there by nature will be collateral damage. His labrum will be torn—but the question is to what extent. There will likely be some damage to the socket—the question is to what extent. Even if they return him to play this season—there is a VERY strong likelihood that they are doing so knowing that surgery is already going to be a certainty—and they just want to get as much out of him as they can before they hit that certainty. In a contact sport like football where you are almost certainly going to be putting that shoulder in a lot of impacts, tackles, dives, falls, hits—if he comes back—there is a very strong likelihood of re-injury—and if/when that happens—surgery will be an immediate necessity. I am very hopeful for todays news—but if you watch the very clip showing what Rappaort said—pretty much the only thing he said was that at least a disclocated shoulder was verified and that the “hope” was that he could return at some point this season in a brace. The word “quickly” was not mentioned, and nothing about a 1-2 week thing was mentioned. I’m not saying these are not possibilities—but none of them were inferred or stated either.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
no need to explain. I saw you got jumped on previously - not by me. I dislocated my shoulder 5x over 10 years before finally having surgery to repair my torn labrum. I’m extremely familiar with this injury. Intimately.
It’s never going to be the same. My ortho described it as “a jar of pickles” in that once you open the jar and it goes “whoosh!” it’ll never have the same seal.
But there is an optimistic outcome and a pessimistic one. Until we know more I’m rooting for optimism. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
I think my redraft share of Worthy this year is close to 75%.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
If he’s back I’m starting him.
efactor
Footballguy
Well, he didn't miss time as a rookie and the shot from Kelce was pretty harsh. Going the opposite direction and being hit by a guy who has 100 pounds on you. Plus Kelce protected himself by throwing up the forearm. Not sure suffering a shoulder injury on that type of play equates to toughness.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
The injury that he suffered was not a “toughness” thing—it was a physics thing. When you have the force and weight of a moving object hit and push your shoulder out of socket—it’s not about him ‘not being tough enough”. I think we need to separate that narrative from what happened here. As I said earlier in the thread—Julius Randle suffered a dislocated shoulder from an impact that didn’t look nearly as violent as this one—and he’s not a scrawny dude by any means.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
All good man. Eff the people that jumped on me earlier. It’s odd that they clowned me for posting videos/threads from doctors that are familiar with sports injuries that effectively said the EXACT same thing that got reported today—that the injury was most likely a dislocated shoulder and that the timeline could range from a few weeks to season ending. That is exactly where we stand now—so it looks as though what I posted was helpful.
It’s not about an optimistic outcome or a pessimistic outcome. It’s about an objective one. Objectivity is the most helpful point of view to have in these threads—and people like you and I sharing personal experiences and opinions on injuries we are familiar with should be invited—not clowned. It would be great if we lived in a world where people could actually choose to use their energy for positive things. The people that clowned me could have saved their energy by just ignoring or scrolling past my posts. The ones that found my posts helpful spent a tiny bit of energy acknowledging it with a like or a “thank you”. The mass of people that chose to spend their energy to clown or be negative is a giant reason why these boards/forums aren’t what they were a while back. They try to blame it on stupid things like moderation—but perhaps they need to look at themselves and understand that maybe it’s their negative energy has driven people away over time.
In any case—rant over. Here is my objective opinion. Im most likelihood—there are three potential outcomes for Worthy’s shoulder. They are:
1- if he got lucky where the shoulder dislocation was “clean” with minimal collateral damage—to where the recovery is non-surgical and based on rehab/phsyical therapy—you would be looking at a lengthy absence—as you wouldn’t want to compromise him. I’d probably say 6-8 weeks.
2. If the shoulder dislocation was brutal and caused a lot of collateral damage and instability—to where any sort of physical activity compromises it—they conduct surgery asap in order to get him back as strong as possible for next year.
3. There was moderate collateral damage to the shoulder to where surgery will be needed, but because they know that they will be going in there to do surgery at some point—to evaluate if they can give him a few weeks to recover and have him come back with a brace and to give what he can. This would likely come with the caveat that any tweak/reinjury of the shoulder would result in immediate surgery. We also know that the likelihood of reinjury for this type of injury—in this type of sport is high.
Here is what we know—Rappaport said that they are getting a second opinion—and that the most likely outcome is that he returns AT SOME POINT this season with a brace. This most likely eliminates potential outcome #2 and leaves outcomes 1 and 3 as being the most likely.
The question is—which outcome do you think is the most optimistic for fantasy owners? Which do you think is most objective?
I myself lean towards option 3 being what is happening here based on what we know now. i think there is a likelihood that the second opinion is to find out if there is enough stability in the shoulder to allow him to play with a brace that would not put him at risk for further complications knowing that they are probably going to be planning on surgery when the time/need comes. I don’t think they would need a second option for outcome #1. Keep in mind—that in this case—the “optimistic” outcome for fantasy owners could be option 3–because it could allow him to get on the field sooner.
Some of you might find this train of thought helpful. Most of you will probably find it to be horse sh*t. If you fall into that second group—save your energy and scroll by.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I said this exact thing in the game topic right after it happened. I thought it was either that or an AC joint or shoulder separation. There’s only so much that it could have been. This was the most likely.
Good catch, NFL.com has this added as well (emphasis mine):
"Worthy is still undergoing tests, Rapoport added, and it's unclear how much time he will miss. The receiver is seeking a second opinion on the injury.
The most likely scenario is for Worthy to wear a brace on his shoulder and return this season, Rapoport reported. However, surgery is still an option, pending more tests and consultation."
efactor
Footballguy
Usually not a good sign when someone seeks a 2nd opinion. Usually means the first opinion was not what they wanted to hear.
Hope I'm wrong though
Agreed, only thing that gives me slightly more hope here is that they probably aren't even back in the US yet. While I am sure there are some top-notch doctors in Sao Paulo and the Chiefs can afford whatever they need and there's always zoom, have to imagine they want to get him back to the states to see one of their preferred specialists.
I would have thought they would have flown home first thing Saturday morning. Why would they stay for 2 days after the game?
