In that case, I agree with you the constitution in and of itself is not an answer. Sorry.
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WWYD: Missing Child, Cops Searching Neighborhood (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
The narrative says FD, the question says police. I would let firefighters in right away. I’d have a few follow up questions for the police.Murph said:
It would [NOT] be a no brainer. Where I live those plant evidence, coerce confessions & lie all the time (especially to protect each other.) They’re literally the biggest gang in town.
FD - different story IME.
YMMV
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This is correct. I allowed FD in the house. I'm asking about police as a hypothetical
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
ughMurph said:
I’m so sorry for the family
devastating
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
and yes to footage from security systems, anything (reasonable) to help
obviously the family is going through unimaginable pain on a scale we cannot fathom
but this sort of outcome is traumatic for the whole community
bostonfred
Footballguy
Sad update - 3 year old was found dead in a pond nearby
As the father of an autistic child this breaks my heart. Drowning is the leading cause of death for kids on the spectrum. My kid once got out of the swimming pool, took off his floaties with mom's help, then when she reached for his dry clothes, he turned around and ran back into the pool and went in over his head. Thankfully i saw it happen and dove in in my clothes and he didn't drown. But it can happen in no time flat.
Http://www.swimangelfish.com was a huge help for us. They give swim lessons but use ABA principles and focus on ritual and routine. When they learn to jump in they don't just learn how to jump, they learn to touch your head touch your toes touch your belly touch your nose clap three times and jump in. As a parent that means you have some warning when you see your kid about to jump in the deep end.
If any of you are parents or allies of kids on the spectrum and want to talk about this, shoot me a PM. I don't know if I can help but I had to learn all kinds of things on my own and it was really difficult so if I can share anything that has any chance to help save a kid's life, improve their quality of life, or help you as a parent, please ask.
As the father of an autistic child this breaks my heart. Drowning is the leading cause of death for kids on the spectrum. My kid once got out of the swimming pool, took off his floaties with mom's help, then when she reached for his dry clothes, he turned around and ran back into the pool and went in over his head. Thankfully i saw it happen and dove in in my clothes and he didn't drown. But it can happen in no time flat.
Http://www.swimangelfish.com was a huge help for us. They give swim lessons but use ABA principles and focus on ritual and routine. When they learn to jump in they don't just learn how to jump, they learn to touch your head touch your toes touch your belly touch your nose clap three times and jump in. As a parent that means you have some warning when you see your kid about to jump in the deep end.
If any of you are parents or allies of kids on the spectrum and want to talk about this, shoot me a PM. I don't know if I can help but I had to learn all kinds of things on my own and it was really difficult so if I can share anything that has any chance to help save a kid's life, improve their quality of life, or help you as a parent, please ask.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
We did an organ donation on a young boy who was autistic and got out of the house in the middle of the night. Found him next day in a nearby body of water. Learned that day, it was the leading cause of death of kids on the spectrum. So sad.
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
Voted yes but would probably depend on how high I was at the time and if they seemed like a cool cop or not
krista4
Footballguy
I just asked Mr. krista, and he was of the NFW opinion when it comes to cops, but said he would be fine with the FD, a random neighbor, etc. His view is that the chance of something bad happening with an armed cop in his house is greater than the chance that he somehow missed a three-year-old wandering into the house.
Echoes a lot of what's been said here and makes sense IMO.
Thank you for posting this. The story that this thread is about hit home not only because it is in our state, but because our 6 year old also is on the Autism Spectrum. We do have him in weekly swimming lessons but he has a lot to go. But man does he love to be in the water and under the water.
The comments about not having anything to hide or police planting evidence really miss the point, IMO. Plenty of people are put in prison for crimes they didn't commit, often based on flimsy evidence. I'm not giving the police any chance to come into my house and say "I saw x in the house" and then have somebody else say "I wonder if that's related to crime Y, we should look at that further." Well meaning people can wrongfully convict people and I'm not going to voluntarily give someone an opportunity to see something that could unintentionally implicate me. If I know this kid isn't in my house, nothing good can come from letting the police in. Probably nothing bad comes of it, but definitely nothing good comes of it.
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Zow
Footballguy
Nobody is saying you’re a sucker.I had police stop by my house to question me about something that was reported about my vehicle.....plot twist, I invited him in the house..... He declined. And I've been on the end of drawn guns ......I'm just a sucker
gianmarco
Footballguy
This is exactly what I started thinking about. What if my kid has the same color sweatshirt as the missing kid and it's out in his room. Or the same kind of toy. Maybe the whole thing is unsettling and I answer a question in a way that makes a cop think twice about me. Next thing is I'm answering more questions or they want to take things further, I have to get an attorney, etc.
If I believed letting them in helped them locate the kid, then absolutely. But that just isn't legitimately the case. I KNOW they would gain nothing from searching my home so there is nothing but potential downside. As others said, they can search outside as much as they want and I'm happy to help look for him.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Swim therapy is awesome for kids on the spectrum. Imagine being assaulted by every sound and visual input and physical sensation around you, non-stop, your entire life, and then you go under water and there's a constant, even pressure on your skin, the sound is distorted by the water and all you see is the little window. In your swim goggles and everything just kind of slows down. It's a dream come true.
My son is hyperlexic - he learned to read before he learned to talk. I think visual input was just really overwhelming for him at first. He's making awesome progress now at age 11. Still behind other 11 year olds but I see the path to him on ramping with his typically developing peers at some point.
It can be really difficult to raise kids on the spectrum because you don't know what to expect, and there's no way to know if your kid will do better than mine at the same age or vice versa. This isn't a race, but there is a certain amount of acceleration needed in the public school system because their default expectation seems to be that they are raising kids who need post graduation support and never totally move past their diagnosis. You can expect more but you need to make sure they give your kid an opportunity to do it.
1000% I let them search. Check it off the list and keep the search moving.
If it was my kid, I'd be pretty pissed at any neighbor who refused.
krista4
Footballguy
I've been reading up on this case, and I'm not sure this kid was actually on the spectrum. There was one report that he was non-verbal, but then others later that he was "like a regular kid" who talked sometimes and other times didn't. I only share that so that maybe those with kids on the spectrum might not take it quite to heart. 
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Then again, I live in a city where the risk of a cop pulling a gun on a resident or planting evidence is roughly negative infinity %
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
important missing [word] in my original post
I have good reason to never trust a LEO
my life experiences w/ firefighters has been overwhelming positive
*************
#pedantry
what a terrible outcome - grateful nothing bad has ever happened to my children, but overwhelmed with sadness thinking about this case
**************
at a much older age (14 or 15) my dirt bike broke down near dusk while I was riding trails. couldn’t get it restarted, I was at the bottom of a gully, wasn’t strong enough to push it up the hill. after wasting too much time attempting THAT, decided to walk out. but it was dark by then, the trails criss crossed…..less than a mile from home but disoriented. it was pretty scary.
I finally found my way back home around 11:30. my mom hugged me then immediately went out back and fired a shotgun. that was the signal for the searchers to come back. I’d only been missing a few hours but there were 50-60 people from my village looking through the (wrong) woods with flashlights. sheriffs, FD, and basically every neighbor.
at the time I was super embarrassed. thinking about it now, really grateful I grew up in a time / place where everybody looked out for each other,
Rand al Thor
Footballguy
I would not let the police in. As noted by someone else, I'm going to be able to find a missing three year old in my house without the police officers' help, but that's not really the point. If we as a society become so accustomed to waiving our Constitutional rights because of peer pressure (as one poster noted above, he would think differently of his neighbors for invoking their 4th Amendment rights), it's only a matter of time before these rights become meaningless. You never let the police search your house, your car, or your person. Not because you may or may not have something to hide, but because by invoking your Constitutional rights, you are helping to preserve those rights for everybody. Just my 2 cents.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
At that age my kid barely spoke. One or two words at a time. So the behavioral therapists used a really common practice called PECS to teach him how to ask for things - basically you learn to talk like a robot saying can i have pizza please can i have television please can i have cookies please. It leans in to the strong memorization skills that a lot of kids on the spectrum have, and their tendency to use scripted communication (think hi how are you/ I'm fine how are you, but in pretty much every situation).I've been reading up on this case, and I'm not sure this kid was actually on the spectrum. There was one report that he was non-verbal, but then others later that he was "like a regular kid" who talked sometimes and other times didn't. I only share that so that maybe those with kids on the spectrum might not take it quite to heart.
The idea that one of these was "like a regular kid" and another one not, or that talking sometimes meant he wasn't really on the spectrum, isn't so much offensive (i am entirely confident you aren't being offensive) as it is indicative of the challenge kids on the spectrum face because well meaning people might say he's not really on the spectrum... and either they are gatekeeping who is allowed to use the term autistic without really understanding it, or they're saying autism means you're really really ####ed up and you're not ####ed up enough to count. And that's obviously not a fun thing to hear.
This is also a controversial topic because of the increase in autism diagnoses. And a lot of doctors probably err on the side of giving kids a diagnosis that gets them the services they'll need to live a happy life.
There are types of autism. Type 1 often "gets better" over time. Type 2 (my son's diagnosis) is hit or miss and needs a lot of support to have any chance. Type 3 is often non verbal or severely limited and can be really difficult to progress from.
It sounds like you're describing s kid with a type 1 or maybe type 2 diagnosis. Not "I'm not sure this kid was actually on the spectrum". I totally get where you're coming from, just trying to help spread some understanding with someone who I know might listen.
krista4
Footballguy
It's good and important information, and I appreciate your kindness about it. But all I was saying was that reports might have been made or misinterpreted based on incomplete information, and assumptions about his status might be misplaced as a result. Initial media reports of anything are often wrong. The information you've imparted is good for everyone in any case.
ETA: I put "like a regular kid" in quotes for a reason, as it was a direct quote from the source.
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The Dreaded Marco
Footballguy
facook
Footballguy
Murph said:
Literally happened a few years ago here, 4 year old boy on the spectrum just wandered off, well known to us in the hood and my wife and son in the hood schools. We gave cops carte blanche to our home, hopped in the hoopdie, and trolled the streets looking for the boy. There were DOZENS of cars crisscrossing the streets. I posted about it somewhere on here (GMTAN?). He was found safe, but either way it made me proud of our ghetto neighbors. We came together and his father was SO grateful once he was found safe.
the moops
Footballguy
Reading these responses really is a glimpse into how distrustful this country seems to be. Saying that allowing a cop to look for a missing kid somehow strips everyone's constitutional rights and that a cop is just going to start planting evidence and shooting at anything that moves in the house seems ridiculous to me.
I just don't understand how under these specific parameters that so many people are worried about being arrested or shot by letting a cop into their house.
I guess I am just naive or maybe it's because I have law enforcement in my family and just donxt see the issue.
From my perspective, I have had both positive and negative interactions with police. The problem is not that all cops behave badly all the time. The problem is that when they do behave badly, the outcomes can be severe and citizens often have little recourse.
I'd be fascinated to know what proportion of cops would consent to having their own home searched.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
What if the police are looking for a burglary suspect that ran from the cops, jumped some fences and is known to be in the neighborhood?
Do police just not ask in that case and insteas just come into the house when you open the door?
What if there's a neatly packed kilo of weed on your kitchen table that a cop spots while looking for the burglar?
Do police just not ask in that case and insteas just come into the house when you open the door?
What if there's a neatly packed kilo of weed on your kitchen table that a cop spots while looking for the burglar?
Like this story in CO, or this story in TX? They can destroy your house with absolutely no recourse to the homeowner.
The guy in CO sued, lost, and appealed all the way to the US Supreme Court who denied hearing the case.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I voted yes
Im not sure if it was a kid from “the area” but from my neighborhood? Of course
Im not sure if it was a kid from “the area” but from my neighborhood? Of course
The General
Footballguy
Being shot wouldn’t have come to my mind. It would just be odd that a cop would come to look through my closets or whatever. I am more than capable of this.
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The General
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I realize this isn't the scenario but a think a happy compromise would be to either allow the FD or the parents themselves to search with me if they want.
The General
Footballguy
It’s a matter of trust I suppose. My conscious would be clean. I can search my house, I have motion cameras, doors are locked. I would help in the search.
I’d probably let them but again I think there’s a reason cops don’t do this.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
And the more I think about it, two things.
1. I agree with whoever said this seems like a waste of time for the police. Meaning - they should go door to door and notify as many neighbors as quickly as possible and see if they will search. Seems you would get the word out more quickly and allow home owners the time to search their own place.
2. I do think it's at least somewhat possible that a kid could sneak in to my house and hide without me knowing it. Our doors are virtually unlocked all the time during the day and while we have a fenced in backyard, the gate is easily opened from the outside and the kid could wander in to my finished basement without me realizing it. Even with cameras it could happen as I don't check the video on every motion in the backyard.
1. I agree with whoever said this seems like a waste of time for the police. Meaning - they should go door to door and notify as many neighbors as quickly as possible and see if they will search. Seems you would get the word out more quickly and allow home owners the time to search their own place.
2. I do think it's at least somewhat possible that a kid could sneak in to my house and hide without me knowing it. Our doors are virtually unlocked all the time during the day and while we have a fenced in backyard, the gate is easily opened from the outside and the kid could wander in to my finished basement without me realizing it. Even with cameras it could happen as I don't check the video on every motion in the backyard.
Are you asking whether I would feel differently about police searching my home or searching all homes in the neighborhood?
I think he's asking how would you feel if your kid went missing and somebody in the neighborhood declined to let police or fire department search their home.
ETA: I think I'd be far more distraught about my missing kid and less worried about who did or didn't let the police in their home. Hard to say. Maybe I'd be pissed that somebody didn't let the police search the house, just in case. Obviously hope I'm never in that situation.
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In case it changes how you perceive my answer, you should know off the bat I'm not a parent.
I consider myself a principled civil libertarian, so I'd like to think my position would be the same. It's fine for the police to ask. And it's fine for someone to say no.
More to the point, I am thankful to live under a legal system where the rights of my neighbors to be free from unreasonable search is protected by neutral judges (theoretically) and not subject to however I may feel in an emotionally charged moment.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Is my 18 year old son still living with me in this hypothetical?
If yes then i dont think i let police search.
If no then have at it.
Fire department for sure can search no matter what.
If yes then i dont think i let police search.
If no then have at it.
Fire department for sure can search no matter what.
