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Yet another Pitt Bull attack (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter pantherclub
- Start date
AAABatteries
Footballguy
modogg
Footballguy
i appreciate the well wishes, and am quite confident we will be fine (pitbull was actually supposed to be a therapy dog actually, but unfortunately she didn't pass the final test because the lead trainer thought she was "socially immature"
). i will be sure to let all know in here if anything happens, but i am pretty sure there are 1000's to millions of pitbull owners who have had kids and an incident has not occurred. would make for a boring news story.Honestly, can't envision a situation where i would have both my dogs hanging with the kid and me nowhere around.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
modogg
Footballguy
i would say the same thing about any dog. But as i mentioned above, it is an actual fact that cats are considered a bigger threat to babies then whatever breed of dog you pick (i am not an expert by any means, and only going by little i have read, but cats love to snuggle a lot and there are a bunch of incident of cats getting into a crib with a baby and basically suffocating it).
i have not seen anything in the 9 and 10 years i have had my 2 dogs that would have me concerned with her safety. But common sense tells me i wouldn't let a newborn just alone in a lot of scenarios. It is funny because my wife has become a pitbull advocate because of our dog, and she would love to spend days in this thread. i for one like the continued terror that a specific breed of dog can inflict on a society because they are probably the cheapest security out there.
in all honesty, in my experience it has way more to do with the owner and the attn./care/training they provide for any breed. my parents have a husky that has such anxiety issues that if they leave the dog alone for 4+ hours the dog significantly injures herself because of the anxiety she has (bloody paws and some other stuff a week after they got her because they got her from a rescue). i wouldn't trust that dog alone with a lot of people, and it has nothing to do with her breed, but likely her history or some other trauma she had. I'm not a dog psychologist, but that one definitely has deep issues
it would be silly for anybody to leave a newborn in the protection of anything else but themselves. if i have to think of some potential dangers with my pitbull i can come up with 2. One actually happened to a 1.5 year old neighbor we have when his parents wanted him to meet our dogs. my dog was tied up in our yard, the mom brought the little boy over when i was in the garage, and i did start to hear crying. this isn't just for pitbulls, but when my girl gets happy she really wags her tail. she has knocked a cup of water right off the table with it before. so my dog was excited to see the mom and bopped the little guy in the head with her tail. The other thing she has, and i have had dogs my entire life, is that she has a heck of a motherly instinct. 3-4 times a week she walks around the house around now (close to midnight) and cleans the other animals in my house by cleaning their ears. i have another dog and 2 cats, and when she licks the cats ears to clean them you can see the cat's head get bounced around.
ChainsawU
Footballguy
This article contains 789 references. That's a lot of data. You might want to narrow that down a little bit if you're trying to make a point or present an argument.
ChainsawU
Footballguy
Yes. I have followed the thread, read it, and submitted posts. And most of my posts contain citations. From actual books. That I have read.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Let's just pull their teeth so they can match their owners.AAABatteries said:
Wildcat
Footballguy
Exactly. Worthless breed. They are all "sweeties" until they maul a baby to death.
Clown Car
Footballguy
http://themiamigazette.com/hero-pitbull-uses-doggy-door-to-save-neighbors-from-violent-home-intruders/
I thought a good story should also be shared.
I thought a good story should also be shared.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
i'm sure most pitbulls are good dogs. That's not the point. The Pitbulls who aren't are the concern. They have the ability to rip someone to shreds when it goes wrong. A poodle can't do that no matter how badly they are trained.
Max Power
Footballguy
I've said it before... 5 years ago I'd be on the other side of fence with this debate. I've had a rescue pit for the last 4 years and she has been the best dog I've ever owned. Strangers judge her for her cropped ears, but shes got a great heart. She even lets my kids be kids around her. Its not the breed, its the dog itself/owner.
All breeds have dogs who are #######s. This breed has #######s, plus bad owners. Its why they get a bad rep IMO.
All breeds have dogs who are #######s. This breed has #######s, plus bad owners. Its why they get a bad rep IMO.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
The point that you are overlooking is that this is a people problem, and not a dog problem.
If pitbulls are outlawed, only outlaws will have ovcharkas, and kangals.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
i agree it's a people problem. The problem is a lot of people don't train their dogs well. If they can't train a pit bull it can end up with someone getting mauled. With most breeds that's not an issue no matter how badly they are trained.
Most poorly trained dogs will just bite, a pit bull and a few other breeds will take it much further.
Max Power
Footballguy
you're on point with this analysis. Its a risk matrix for most people. I own a pit and no one who comes in contact with her is worried about her. I see a pit on the street and I stand back a bit. Someone with an untrained or unloved pit can be nasty...
Us owners see the good in dog and fight the stereotype. Pit-bulls are one thing our culture is ok stereotyping and I don't agree with that.
Clown Car
Footballguy
Jobber
Footballguy
If this incident involved my admittedly poorly trained Yorkie, the headline would read "Small Dog Steals Elderly Woman's Compression Sock After Fall"
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Exactly how many Poodle mailings are we talking about?Clown Car said:
DallasDMac
Footballguy
otb_lifer
Footballguy
*In a statement, the center says the dog never showed any aggression while training, and passed his final evaluation before being adopted.*
hfs ... the beast was deemed cool to be let loose, according to the above quoted from article.
so this woman survives to hit 90, pretty rarefied air in this country ... then has to go out in one of the most brutal, painful and horrific ways - because, ya know, her daughter needed her 'status symbol' animal.
####### disgusts me ... hate seeing this thread bumped because it usually means another misunderstood hell hound chomped someone to pieces. ferchrissakes, this one gnawed that poor woman's stomach open. good god, man :(
Dedfin
Footballguy
I believe all mammalian pets are reflections of their owners true nature. Not the mask they wear for society but what they are inside because they possess senses we can't fully comprehend. I believe this because I've never met a nasty animal that wasn't owned by a person who had deep evil traits and vice versa. Even the people that put on a good demeanor in public but you can tell aren't really that way if you pick up the subtle cues.
I assume this is probably true of avian pets as well because they are very intelligent and probably have similiar emotional processes to mammals. I do not have much experience with birds to say for sure.
Reptiles, fish and insects operate on a more primal emotional level so are not relevant in this theory.
I assume this is probably true of avian pets as well because they are very intelligent and probably have similiar emotional processes to mammals. I do not have much experience with birds to say for sure.
Reptiles, fish and insects operate on a more primal emotional level so are not relevant in this theory.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Love the hero pit bull story. It rescued the neighbors from being brutalized. It did this of its own accord. It did this by killing a full grown man and mauling two others.
Here's the thing, an uncontrolled pit bull left its own home, ran at large, entered a neighbor's home and used its judgement, not the direction of a human but its own judgment to kill. That it had good judgment is great, but I find the control, or lack of control and direction of an animal capable of killing an adult troubling. I know this, I would not own guns if they could leave my home on their own accord, go to the neighbors, and with the abilities of discernment of a canine brain decide to start shooting. The same goes for knives, matches, and power tools.
The neighbors who were saved from ongoing brutalization may, of course, feel differently.
Here's the thing, an uncontrolled pit bull left its own home, ran at large, entered a neighbor's home and used its judgement, not the direction of a human but its own judgment to kill. That it had good judgment is great, but I find the control, or lack of control and direction of an animal capable of killing an adult troubling. I know this, I would not own guns if they could leave my home on their own accord, go to the neighbors, and with the abilities of discernment of a canine brain decide to start shooting. The same goes for knives, matches, and power tools.
The neighbors who were saved from ongoing brutalization may, of course, feel differently.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Okay, but not full grown yet. I can't imagine rescuing a full grown pit. How long would it take before you're comfortable that the dog doesn't have an underlying issue? Look at this latest story. The pit was trained by the rescue organization and passed all the aggression tests. By all accounts, all appeared to be fine. It had only been adopted for a few hours before it killed. So when you rescue a grown pit, there may very well come a time when you can safely say it's gentle and not a killer. But for a while, maybe even a year or more, you're not going to be sure.
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Max Power
Footballguy
its just a risk management thing I guess. I wasnt 100% comfortable when the dog first came home. However this is a dog that I'd trust with anything. Show me another pit and I'm skeptical. I dont think its the best breed to bring around a family, I"m just saying a good pit is the best dog you'll ever have.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I'm always shocked when this thread gets bumped. Who would guess this could keep happening?
Chaka
Footballguy
I feel terribly for the poor woman who died, particularly with the horrific nature of her death. Her daughter will have to carry this with her for the rest of her life which is also tragic. But treating pit bulls as a some sort of national crisis is just stupid.
Spending any amount of energy dealing with pit bulls in light of the much more significant issues of preventable death facing our country seems terribly misguided.
For example; while I can't find real time information on overdose deaths there were six suspected overdose deaths in Delaware alone last week. So I think it's safe to say that there were a lot more nationally. I have seen stats that say about 34 people per day die from prescription drug overdose but I haven't verified it yet.
Medical errors, accidents, DUI, texting while driving, domestic violence, hospital related infections etc. etc. etc. All examples of preventable death/injury in this country that occur at rates dramatically higher than death/injury by pit bull rates.
And of course nothing gets people riled up more than the next example but that's not going to stop me. Yesterday (June 6th, 2017) there were at least 66 acts of gun violence leaving 25 dead and 40 injured. Over the past 72 hours it's 295 acts of gun violence with a death toll of 94 (170 injured). Link I can't speak to the veracity of this database but the data flies in line with national averages.
I will walk in lock step with all you on getting rid of pit bulls if you all agree that before we get to pit bulls we start much, much higher up the list of other preventable causes of death in this country.
Who's with me?
Spending any amount of energy dealing with pit bulls in light of the much more significant issues of preventable death facing our country seems terribly misguided.
For example; while I can't find real time information on overdose deaths there were six suspected overdose deaths in Delaware alone last week. So I think it's safe to say that there were a lot more nationally. I have seen stats that say about 34 people per day die from prescription drug overdose but I haven't verified it yet.
Medical errors, accidents, DUI, texting while driving, domestic violence, hospital related infections etc. etc. etc. All examples of preventable death/injury in this country that occur at rates dramatically higher than death/injury by pit bull rates.
And of course nothing gets people riled up more than the next example but that's not going to stop me. Yesterday (June 6th, 2017) there were at least 66 acts of gun violence leaving 25 dead and 40 injured. Over the past 72 hours it's 295 acts of gun violence with a death toll of 94 (170 injured). Link I can't speak to the veracity of this database but the data flies in line with national averages.
I will walk in lock step with all you on getting rid of pit bulls if you all agree that before we get to pit bulls we start much, much higher up the list of other preventable causes of death in this country.
Who's with me?
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Insoxicated
I'm with you when owning a Pitbull a constitutionally/legally protected right, and when guns independently decide to kill people without intervention from their owners.
Who's with me?
Dedfin
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Of all of the examples you listed, which one do you think is responsible for the most preventable deaths? Because by your logic, one could argue that efforts with respect to all other examples that result in lower numbers of preventable deaths should be tabled until we address the top one. (In other words, I think it's possible to focus on more than one thing at a time.)
That being said, I don't advocate extinguishing the breed or anything.
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Insoxicated
modogg
Footballguy
yes, we all know this thread is beaming with intelligent discourse and ideas galore. Nothing like "kill all the pit bulls" to solve society's ills
Dedfin
Footballguy
Dedfin
Footballguy
What would people say to some regulation to own a large and powerful dog (pit bulls being only one of many) you would have to take additional dog owner training courses? Does anyone think that would infringe on their right to pursue happiness in dog owning? Would it be effective?
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Insoxicated
What about increasing criminal legal penalties placed on dog owners for damage inflicted by dogs, and streamlining/fast-tracking the path toward compensation of victims of attacks for medical bills as well as punitive damages.
You want to own a dog that is capable of inflicting serious harm, that's your choice. But choose wise or be prepared to spend a lot of time in prison, and lose your house/car/savings if the animal kills or badly maims someone.
If your dog is truly a good dog, you have nothing to worry about
You want to own a dog that is capable of inflicting serious harm, that's your choice. But choose wise or be prepared to spend a lot of time in prison, and lose your house/car/savings if the animal kills or badly maims someone.
If your dog is truly a good dog, you have nothing to worry about
ChainsawU
Footballguy
I think it's a good idea to learn as much as you can about the things you own. It makes a good leader. And good leadership is taking responsibility for things you own and lead. It's a great parallel to dog ownership, which essentially puts you as the leader of a pack of animals.
I think it would also be a great idea for people who want to talk about dogs to have even a remote understanding of the principle of the pack behavior.
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ChainsawU
Footballguy
Dude, you'd love that that Cesar Millan book, Cesar's Way. And the book Pit Bull: The Battle over an American Icon, you'd love too. Some people don't get the pack mindset and the dogs suffer as a result. I'm willing to bet you're a damn good pack leader.
I'm also reading this book right now called Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. It's a book of Navy SEAL combat stories that translate into lessons for business and life. The first thing they say is that a leader must take responsibility for everything. Parallels great with the Pit Bull ownership idea.
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Insoxicated
Any PitBull Owners/Fans have a problem with this?What about increasing criminal legal penalties placed on dog owners for damage inflicted by dogs, and streamlining/fast-tracking the path toward compensation of victims of attacks for medical bills as well as punitive damages.
You want to own a dog that is capable of inflicting serious harm, that's your choice. But choose wise or be prepared to spend a lot of time in prison, and lose your house/car/savings if the animal kills or badly maims someone.
If your dog is truly a good dog, you have nothing to worry about
• Your dog attacks someone badly? You're charged with felony aggravated assault.
• Your dog attacks someone and nearly kills them / hospitalizes them in serious or critical condition? You're charged with felony attempted murder
• Your dog kills someone? You're charged with Felony manslaughter.
• All cases open you up to fast tracked financial and civil penalties as well.
Note that I think it should apply to all dogs, not breed specific. However dogs who are capable of doing serious damage put their owners at greater risk of facing serious legal or financial repercussions.
Seems fair to me. If your dog is as sweet and well trained as you claim, you have nothing to worry about.
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modogg
Footballguy
it isn't terrible. I am ok with it, but opens the door for similar issues. How about the soccer mom who doesn't know how to drive her vehicle which is 3 times the size of a normal vehicle and hits something? personal responsibility is great, and should be a focus. the additional training is fine too. The only thing is what would qualify, etc, etc.Any PitBull Owners/Fans have a problem with this.
Note that I think it should apply to all dogs, not breed specific. However dogs who are capable of doing serious damage put their owners at greater risk of facing serious legal or financial repercussions.
Your dog attacks someone badly? You're charged with felony aggravated assault.
Your dog attacks someone and nearly kills them / hospitalizes them in serious or critical condition? You're charged with felony attempted murder
Your dog kills someone? You're charged with Felony manslaughter.
All cases open you up to fast tracked financial and civil penalties as well.
Seems fair to me. If your dog is as sweet and well trained as you claim, you have nothing to worry about.
Polish Hammer
made of glass
Mo, let's be really honest about something here. You can't even train your dog to sit - I think "attack" is a long way off.
modogg
Footballguy
not a huge fan of Cesar. His techniques work on some dogs, but has flaws too. The English lady who started her show after his was a little better. I am positive my wife has read the other book, this is much more her fight then mine. I love my dogs, and am happy with them. Good enough for me. I have trained them well through a lot of my background (Board Certified Behavior Analyst, BCBA),so we have things pretty good. Classical conditioning and the principles from behavior research are real applicable.
3rd book sounds interesting, may give that a go. Library is running out of zombie books for me to read, so may have to read one of those "grown-up" books one of these days
modogg
Footballguy
excuse me sir, that was deemed "socially immature". She sits, it is only about 1" off the ground and her tail is a propeller keeping her up.
And we have a bit of a fix for it too. Her torn ACL and MCL has it so she can't sit right anyway now, but her ups aren't what they used to be.
to be honest, if there is one trick I taught her that was a real good help with her was "get a toy". she was mouthy (wouldn't bite but would have her mouth open and hurt people a little).She learned that thing in like an hour, and still does to this day when I get home without asking her (she grabs this hunk of wood I got from the pet store that does wonders for our hardwood floor when she drops it).
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