Mike Rowe Answers a Viewer's Questions (Vocational Trade Training) (1 Viewer)

[NCCommish]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

You know it isn't just welding. Ultrasound techs are skilled labor. They are easily 50-60k a year. Elevator techs are 70k a year median wage. There are a very diverse range of opportunities available

 

[NutterButter]

I'd love to know from guys with less employable majors how they wound up down that path. Did your parents try to persuade you to choose a more lucrative major? Having two young girls, I might be put in that position in another decade and its never too early to start planting the right seeds. I'd be thrilled if they followed in their dad's footsteps and became programmers.

Vocational works sounds glamorous when compared to a slow day at the office, but the older I get the more glad that I'm not doing something physical everyday. My neighbor is a roofer in his 50's and just had his knee replaced last year. I have no idea how he does it.

I have a degree in economics, I didn't really choose economics it chose me. When I was a freshman you have to take all the basics and for whatever reason I liked economics and it came very easily to me. I found no reason to get crappy grades pushing Math, chemistry or whatever when I could straight A every econ class I took. My report card would typically be A's in econ and econ related classes and a B or C in stuff I was forced to take.

No one ever tried to "talk me out of it"

While I knew there was little chance that I would become a government economic adviser or Econ teacher, Economics is generally viewed favorably as a business degree. I have found no real issues getting hired or advancing in the insurance field.

Congrats on your degree paying off. My question was geared to those who's degrees haven't payed off and especially those whose degrees had little chance of paying off. I've heard a lot on this board about someone getting such and such a degree and that it was pretty much worthless. Curious to know how that degree was chosen and what could've been done by one's parent to steer them in a different, more rewarding degree.

 

[Abraham]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

Probably pretty similar to the career path of people in the fat-middle of any profession, I would imagine.

 

[Abraham]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

You know it isn't just welding. Ultrasound techs are skilled labor. They are easily 50-60k a year. Elevator techs are 70k a year median wage. There are a very diverse range of opportunities available

I think I mentioned this earlier but my wife has a 2 year degree in radiologic technology. She can take x rays. No MRI or cat scan or ultra sound training. Just good old fashioned x rays. Left a $44k/year job she really enjoyed to come raise our family. Could get rehired at that level pretty in a matter of hours of she decided to go back to work.

 

[mr roboto]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

Probably pretty similar to the career path of people in the fat-middle of any profession, I would imagine.

This. A welder who just stays a welder, could make 60k average after a number of years. Again, a great wage for many, and in many parts of the country, completely livable.

 

[Rayderr]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

Probably pretty similar to the career path of people in the fat-middle of any profession, I would imagine.

This. A welder who just stays a welder, could make 60k average after a number of years. Again, a great wage for many, and in many parts of the country, completely livable.

And the welder didn't drop $60+k on his degree.

 

[matuski]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

Probably pretty similar to the career path of people in the fat-middle of any profession, I would imagine.

This. A welder who just stays a welder, could make 60k average after a number of years. Again, a great wage for many, and in many parts of the country, completely livable.

And the welder didn't drop $60+k on his degree.

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

My line of questions revolved around the question "am I limiting my kids if I support/encourage them down these paths?"... the answer seems yes. I'm not saying they aren't respectable/livable incomes, I'm saying I have much much higher expectations and hopes for my boys.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

 

[Abraham]

There are plenty of career paths in welding and production, just like any profession. Welding is a complicated field with many niches. Underwater welders, for example, often work about 1 week per month and make 6 figures because it is such a specialized skill set.

What does the career path look like if you don't become the 1%, what about the top 10%? Top 20%?

Probably pretty similar to the career path of people in the fat-middle of any profession, I would imagine.

This. A welder who just stays a welder, could make 60k average after a number of years. Again, a great wage for many, and in many parts of the country, completely livable.

And the welder didn't drop $60+k on his degree.

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

My line of questions revolved around the question "am I limiting my kids if I support/encourage them down these paths?"... the answer seems yes. I'm not saying they aren't respectable/livable incomes, I'm saying I have much much higher expectations and hopes for my boys.

I can't imagine that having a 4 year degree increases the chance of making more than 60k/year compared to a 2 year. I think you are (incorrectly) assuming that 2 year trade degrees stay below the 60k level except for "special" or outlier workers who work to achieve more than their measly average wage. As I mentioned before, that's the same in every sector. People who work hard earn more money. People who start businesses earn the most (or have a stake in profits). There are a lot of 4-year degree people who won't break $60k for the first two decades of their careers just as there are likely a lot of 2 year degree people in the same boat. If your presumption is that 4-year degree people are more likely to end up in jobs where simply having a pulse and an annual review will get you to $60k at some point, well then i agree with you. I imagine wages for skilled laborers don't go up a little each year due to a standard raise at the same pace as corporate/4-year types.

 

[Abraham]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

 

[Rayderr]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

In my office (IT communications), we all make around the same amount (variances based mainly on how long we have been with the company.) In our group here, we have people with 4 year degrees, a person with a masters, people who went to a 2 year tech school, people who have no degree that got their training in the military or from other jobs. So, would you say that those with a college degree (and the one with a masters) have done better than those that went to tech school or learned on the job?

 

[mr roboto]

But even an average welder, HVAC guy etc could get into a manager role, production oversight, do sales in the industry if they are good at it, or open their own company and earn more as an entrepreneur. Many times there is a more clear and direct path to a promotion in the trades because no one is obsessed with the new guy who has a better degree. It's usually more merit based.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I can't for the life of me understand people who get a degree in a field that is always going to have turbulent employment status.

Art History, Religious Studies, Theater, Philosophy, Creative Writing, Midevil History ...

 

[Rayderr]

I can't for the life of me understand people who get a degree in a field that is always going to have turbulent employment status.

Art History, Religious Studies, Theater, Philosophy, Creative Writing, Midevil History ...

It's no wonder why many of the people who get those degrees end up becoming teachers in those subjects, allowing other people to get the same degrees. It's a vicious circle.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I can't for the life of me understand people who get a degree in a field that is always going to have turbulent employment status.

Art History, Religious Studies, Theater, Philosophy, Creative Writing, Midevil History ...

It's no wonder why many of the people who get those degrees end up becoming teachers in those subjects, allowing other people to get the same degrees. It's a vicious circle.

Pyramid Scheme?

 

[matuski]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

This is exactly what I was asking.

The thread provoked thoughts in my head about what would be best for my kids. Knowing myself, my wife, the people my kids are growing up with, and the opportunities that will be provided.... I expect my kids to do well in whatever they pursue. So I was wondering what the ceilings were for these types of paths.

It wasn't meant to knock welders or techs or the money they make. It was to evaluate the realistic pros and cons for my boys' specific situation and choices (probably similar to many here).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

In my office (IT communications), we all make around the same amount (variances based mainly on how long we have been with the company.) In our group here, we have people with 4 year degrees, a person with a masters, people who went to a 2 year tech school, people who have no degree that got their training in the military or from other jobs. So, would you say that those with a college degree (and the one with a masters) have done better than those that went to tech school or learned on the job?

Of course not. In your case, you're comparing people who all ended up in the same line of work, so of course they earn more or less the same.

What I'm getting at is that people who get four year degrees in fields such as finance or engineering are generally going to out-earn people who become electricians or plumbers. You can do quite well in a trade, but some four year degrees do open up careers with higher ceilings.

 

[mr roboto]

Also, why assume that the trade guy wouldn't continue his education later and move into a white collar position, with lots of experience and possibly no debt? Instead of leaving college at 23 with a 2.8 gpa and a comm or psych degree, which we all know if barely better than no degree at all, a guy could be working full time at 20-21, make an average of 45k in his 20s, possibly get some reimbursed classes for construction management, engineering, many related degrees. So he's 30 instead of 23 when he gets his degree, with 9 years of work experience, knowledge of a field, contacts in that field, and less debt probably.

I just feel that about 20% of my buddies at my 4 year lib arts private school were completely wasting their time. It's not that they weren't smart enough to so college (we all know that outside if some STEM degrees, college is not that tough). It's that they weren't mature enough, weren't serious enough, weren't driven enough. They were 18-19. Spending 30k a year because mom, dad, everyone told them they should. Most of those guys dropped out between end of first and beginning of third year.

 

[Rayderr]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

In my office (IT communications), we all make around the same amount (variances based mainly on how long we have been with the company.) In our group here, we have people with 4 year degrees, a person with a masters, people who went to a 2 year tech school, people who have no degree that got their training in the military or from other jobs. So, would you say that those with a college degree (and the one with a masters) have done better than those that went to tech school or learned on the job?

Of course not. In your case, you're comparing people who all ended up in the same line of work, so of course they earn more or less the same.

What I'm getting at is that people who get four year degrees in fields such as finance or engineering are generally going to out-earn people who become electricians or plumbers. You can do quite well in a trade, but some four year degrees do open up careers with higher ceilings.

Well, kinda. While the ceilings may be higher for graduate students, there are a lot less opportunities for them to hit that ceiling than there are in the trades. Plus you're more likely to be able to land a job as a plumber than as a clinical psycholgist.

 

[igbomb]

If you want to be an engineer and are a decent student, then going to a four-year college for an engineering degree is a great idea. And if you know you want to teach art, then going to a four-year college for an Art History degree may still be a good idea.

But it seems like half of the young folks I know that go to college have no idea what they want to do. They just go because they are supposed to. These are the ones that may want to consider another option.

Also, I don't have a problem with matuski's approach about expecting more from his kids. But what do you do if you have a 8th grader that struggles to get Bs and Cs? At some point you need to face reality and help your kid make a smart decision about their future.

 

[NCCommish]

If an average welder/tech/etc. tops out at $60k, they lose to the degree'd upward mobile career or professional man by a long shot.

Of course. A welder is not going to out-earn a mergers and acquisitions attorney.

That isn't what we're talking about though. We're talking about marginal or sub-marginal college students who would be better off becoming welders than aspiring to cubicle drone status. Those students aren't the "upward mobile" ones.

I'm not talking about that at all and the bolded is the kind of thinking (whether you meant it this way or not) that continues to propagate the idea that trade work is for people that can't hack it in "real" school. Many technical trades are complicated, which is the entire reason they take specialized training.

In that case I have to agree with matuski. My opinion is based mainly on anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty confident that bright and highly-motivated people will do better with a college degree (along with graduate school, for which the BA/BS is a prerequisite) than they would in a trade, on average.

I definitely don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with pursuing a trade. If somebody has the option of studying finance or accounting and turns that down to become a plumber instead, that's completely a-okay with me. They're probably going to earn less than they would have otherwise, but life isn't about just maximizing your total earnings.

In my office (IT communications), we all make around the same amount (variances based mainly on how long we have been with the company.) In our group here, we have people with 4 year degrees, a person with a masters, people who went to a 2 year tech school, people who have no degree that got their training in the military or from other jobs. So, would you say that those with a college degree (and the one with a masters) have done better than those that went to tech school or learned on the job?

Of course not. In your case, you're comparing people who all ended up in the same line of work, so of course they earn more or less the same.

What I'm getting at is that people who get four year degrees in fields such as finance or engineering are generally going to out-earn people who become electricians or plumbers. You can do quite well in a trade, but some four year degrees do open up careers with higher ceilings.

Well I am quite certain I am not sub-marginal. I could have done 4 year college and graduated. But when I looked at the comparative costs to wages I found that a 4 year school didn't quite stack up for me. And really unless you are going to make megabucks in your 4 year field the faster start often means in the end you earned about the same aggregate amount but you spent less getting there.

 

[Slapdash]

Also, why assume that the trade guy wouldn't continue his education later and move into a white collar position, with lots of experience and possibly no debt? Instead of leaving college at 23 with a 2.8 gpa and a comm or psych degree, which we all know if barely better than no degree at all, a guy could be working full time at 20-21, make an average of 45k in his 20s, possibly get some reimbursed classes for construction management, engineering, many related degrees. So he's 30 instead of 23 when he gets his degree, with 9 years of work experience, knowledge of a field, contacts in that field, and less debt probably.

I just feel that about 20% of my buddies at my 4 year lib arts private school were completely wasting their time. It's not that they weren't smart enough to so college (we all know that outside if some STEM degrees, college is not that tough). It's that they weren't mature enough, weren't serious enough, weren't driven enough. They were 18-19. Spending 30k a year because mom, dad, everyone told them they should. Most of those guys dropped out between end of first and beginning of third year.

Not sure why anyone choses this path. Get into a public school where you can get the most tuition assistance and major in an employable field. Wasn't hard to figure out.

 

[matuski]

If you want to be an engineer and are a decent student, then going to a four-year college for an engineering degree is a great idea. And if you know you want to teach art, then going to a four-year college for an Art History degree may still be a good idea.

But it seems like half of the young folks I know that go to college have no idea what they want to do. They just go because they are supposed to. These are the ones that may want to consider another option.

Also, I don't have a problem with matuski's approach about expecting more from his kids. But what do you do if you have a 8th grader that struggles to get Bs and Cs? At some point you need to face reality and help your kid make a smart decision about their future.

Of course, and this is why I asked the questions - to have more information to better make smart decisions. I will not steer my kids away from this path if it is the better option, but I will continue to push them to better themselves and to excel in any path.

 

[cstu]

Also, why assume that the trade guy wouldn't continue his education later and move into a white collar position, with lots of experience and possibly no debt? Instead of leaving college at 23 with a 2.8 gpa and a comm or psych degree, which we all know if barely better than no degree at all, a guy could be working full time at 20-21, make an average of 45k in his 20s, possibly get some reimbursed classes for construction management, engineering, many related degrees. So he's 30 instead of 23 when he gets his degree, with 9 years of work experience, knowledge of a field, contacts in that field, and less debt probably.

I just feel that about 20% of my buddies at my 4 year lib arts private school were completely wasting their time. It's not that they weren't smart enough to so college (we all know that outside if some STEM degrees, college is not that tough). It's that they weren't mature enough, weren't serious enough, weren't driven enough. They were 18-19. Spending 30k a year because mom, dad, everyone told them they should. Most of those guys dropped out between end of first and beginning of third year.

Not sure why anyone choses this path. Get into a public school where you can get the most tuition assistance and major in an employable field. Wasn't hard to figure out.

Probably because their parents are paying the bill. As for the people taking out loans to do it...

 

[cstu]

Well I am quite certain I am not sub-marginal. I could have done 4 year college and graduated. But when I looked at the comparative costs to wages I found that a 4 year school didn't quite stack up for me. And really unless you are going to make megabucks in your 4 year field the faster start often means in the end you earned about the same aggregate amount but you spent less getting there.

The great thing about college is that you're not actually working for 4 years. A lot of young people want to start making money right away so that their 'lifetime earnings' are higher but college is a great experience regardless of the lost income.

 

[NCCommish]

Well I am quite certain I am not sub-marginal. I could have done 4 year college and graduated. But when I looked at the comparative costs to wages I found that a 4 year school didn't quite stack up for me. And really unless you are going to make megabucks in your 4 year field the faster start often means in the end you earned about the same aggregate amount but you spent less getting there.

The great thing about college is that you're not actually working for 4 years. A lot of young people want to start making money right away so that their 'lifetime earnings' are higher but college is a great experience regardless of the lost income.

I gave up 4 years of earning when I joined the military. But I wouldn't trade that experience for the money.

 

[the moops]

major in an employable field.

A lot of employable fields are really, really ####### boring. I would much rather earn 30 grand a year doing something fun and interesting and challenging than earn twice as much and be a grumpy cube drone

 

[cstu]

I can't for the life of me understand people who get a degree in a field that is always going to have turbulent employment status.

Art History, Religious Studies, Theater, Philosophy, Creative Writing, Midevil History ...

It's no wonder why many of the people who get those degrees end up becoming teachers in those subjects, allowing other people to get the same degrees. It's a vicious circle.

These are good subjects for people to learn even if for the most part they aren't economically viable as careers. Being a teacher of one of these subjects is not a horrible way to live either. There's a major difference between spending $50k at a public school to become a teacher than $200k at a private school.

 

[cstu]

Well I am quite certain I am not sub-marginal. I could have done 4 year college and graduated. But when I looked at the comparative costs to wages I found that a 4 year school didn't quite stack up for me. And really unless you are going to make megabucks in your 4 year field the faster start often means in the end you earned about the same aggregate amount but you spent less getting there.

The great thing about college is that you're not actually working for 4 years. A lot of young people want to start making money right away so that their 'lifetime earnings' are higher but college is a great experience regardless of the lost income.

I gave up 4 years of earning when I joined the military. But I wouldn't trade that experience for the money.

My attitude is this thread is that everyone should do what's best for themselves. For you it was the military, for someone else it's college and for another person it's trade school. None of them is wrong, but I don't have an issue pushing kids to go to college if they are capable of doing it.

 

[Rayderr]

I can't for the life of me understand people who get a degree in a field that is always going to have turbulent employment status.

Art History, Religious Studies, Theater, Philosophy, Creative Writing, Midevil History ...

It's no wonder why many of the people who get those degrees end up becoming teachers in those subjects, allowing other people to get the same degrees. It's a vicious circle.

These are good subjects for people to learn even if for the most part they aren't economically viable as careers. Being a teacher of one of these subjects is not a horrible way to live either. There's a major difference between spending $50k at a public school to become a teacher than $200k at a private school.

I'd say those subjects are better as minors than majors. If you want to teach Art, then major in teaching with a minor in art. Majoring in art to become anything other than a teacher is rather stupid. I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

 

[the moops]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

 

[mr roboto]

It would be interesting to know how many 4 year grads hit 150k earnings in their careers.

 

[Rayderr]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[the moops]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

 

[mr roboto]

What's the graduation requirement for an art degree/masters? No shtick, just curious.

 

[cstu]

It would be interesting to know how many 4 year grads hit 150k earnings in their careers.

I don't know that, but here is a chart of Earnings Trajectories by Educational Attainment.

Full article.

One pattern we note is that income generally rises up through Age 50-54 for each of the educational peer groups. However, we see a significant drop-off in income earned after this age band. This outcome is most likely the result of more successful, higher income-earning individuals opting to retire earlier than their lower income earning peers.

 

[the moops]

What's the graduation requirement for an art degree/masters? No shtick, just curious.

It is different for just about every school in the country. Where you going with this?

 

[Rayderr]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

 

[the moops]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

OK. One doesn't need a business degree to be a businessman. Or a management degree to be a manager. Or...

 

[NCCommish]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

OK. One doesn't need a business degree to be a businessman. Or a management degree to be a manager. Or...

Moops does have a point. For instance most of the famous American artists anyone would recognize had a lot of education and training. And it's probably pretty close to all. There is more to painting than just grabbing a brush and going to it after all. Now with that said I don't think most of them got an Art Masters IIRC.

 

[Rayderr]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

OK. One doesn't need a business degree to be a businessman. Or a management degree to be a manager. Or...

Moops does have a point. For instance most of the famous American artists anyone would recognize had a lot of education and training. And it's probably pretty close to all. There is more to painting than just grabbing a brush and going to it after all. Now with that said I don't think most of them got an Art Masters IIRC.

Yup. Don't mix up training with degree.

 

[NCCommish]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

OK. One doesn't need a business degree to be a businessman. Or a management degree to be a manager. Or...

Moops does have a point. For instance most of the famous American artists anyone would recognize had a lot of education and training. And it's probably pretty close to all. There is more to painting than just grabbing a brush and going to it after all. Now with that said I don't think most of them got an Art Masters IIRC.

Yup. Don't mix up training with degree.

Well but those are college level classes. For instance California College of Arts, formerly California College of Arts and Crafts, is one of the best art schools in the world. Has been in existence for over a hundred years and trained a lot of American artists. They offer undergraduate and masters programs.

 

[mr roboto]

What's the graduation requirement for an art degree/masters? No shtick, just curious.

It is different for just about every school in the country. Where you going with this?

Nowhere. Did you notice my 'no shtick' comment? I'm on the trade school side of this debate. No need to get testy here.

 

[the moops]

What's the graduation requirement for an art degree/masters? No shtick, just curious.

It is different for just about every school in the country. Where you going with this?

Nowhere. Did you notice my 'no shtick' comment? I'm on the trade school side of this debate. No need to get testy here.

Didn't mean to come off as testy. Sorry.

Every fine arts program I have been involved in (2 undergraduate, 3 graduate), all have different requirements. Some require minimal liberal arts course, others a bit more strict. But mostly there is such disparity in the focus of the degree that comparing them is difficult. Besides the basic core classe, a sculptor major has different requirements than an illustrator.

I do think that there should be more real life useful classes required. But I think that is true with just about any degree. I developed a math class for artists (in the process of writing a text on it actually) and it is shocking how incompetent these kids are

 

[Slapdash]

major in an employable field.

A lot of employable fields are really, really ####### boring. I would much rather earn 30 grand a year doing something fun and interesting and challenging than earn twice as much and be a grumpy cube drone

That's just like your opinion, man.

If you are happy making 30k a year, good for you.

 

[wazoo11]

Well I am quite certain I am not sub-marginal. I could have done 4 year college and graduated. But when I looked at the comparative costs to wages I found that a 4 year school didn't quite stack up for me. And really unless you are going to make megabucks in your 4 year field the faster start often means in the end you earned about the same aggregate amount but you spent less getting there.

The great thing about college is that you're not actually working for 4 years. A lot of young people want to start making money right away so that their 'lifetime earnings' are higher but college is a great experience regardless of the lost income.

There is also is a misconception at community colleges you need to graduate with an AA if you're trying to transfer out.

 

[Rayderr]

I go to many an art show, and not once have I heard anyone say "I'm interested in your art. But first, what type of degree do you have? Oh, you don't have one? Well in that case, your art sucks."

I imagine a good percentage of these art shows you go to, the artist is in fact a professionally trained artist.

From my conversations with them, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I am an artist, although I do not have an art degree, but have been trained in various medium. The shows that I have been involved in, I am definitely in the minority in not having an art degree, never mind not a masters in fine arts

Yet, that proves my point. One doesn't need a Masters or really any degree to be an artist.

OK. One doesn't need a business degree to be a businessman. Or a management degree to be a manager. Or...

Moops does have a point. For instance most of the famous American artists anyone would recognize had a lot of education and training. And it's probably pretty close to all. There is more to painting than just grabbing a brush and going to it after all. Now with that said I don't think most of them got an Art Masters IIRC.

Yup. Don't mix up training with degree.

Well but those are college level classes. For instance California College of Arts, formerly California College of Arts and Crafts, is one of the best art schools in the world. Has been in existence for over a hundred years and trained a lot of American artists. They offer undergraduate and masters programs.

And? Still not necessary to be an artist. Back when I worked at multimedia shops, when there was an opening for a graphic artist opening, we cared about their portfolio, not their degree. Hell, back in those days, there were plenty of times I had to pitch in on the graphic arts side (despite being a video guy) and did well despite having no degree at all.Never had any formal training at all. I learned the programs on my own and learned styles from looking at other pieces of work.

 

[the moops]

Rayderr - Woud you agree that 95% of the jobs out there don't require a specific degree, just a specific skill set? Not sure why you are harping on art degrees when the same could be said about countless others

 

[Rayderr]

Rayderr - Woud you agree that 95% of the jobs out there don't require a specific degree, just a specific skill set? Not sure why you are harping on art degrees when the same could be said about countless others

Because sadly, many jobs do require degrees. Can't be a lawyer without a degree. Can't be a doctor without a degree. Can't be a CPA without a degree. Can't be an engineer without a degree. Can't be a teacher without a degree. and so on. As to why I'm "harping" on art degrees. It's because I mentioned in causally and for some reason NCC is disagreeing with me despite having already agreed with me. (He seems to be having issues with sharing an opinion with people that he normally disagrees with.)

But yes, there are plenty of jobs where a skill set is required rather than a degree (but not 95%) And for those jobs, I'd say it makes much more financial sense to forgo the degree and just get the skills needed. Especially in typical low paying professions. If you're only going to make $30k/year as an artist, why drop $100k on a masters in art when you can make the same amount and spend far less?