Mike Rowe Answers a Viewer's Questions (Vocational Trade Training) (1 Viewer)

[jamny]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Completely down with that. Pretty much the way it is in Germany right now. Every kid graduates with some basic skills in a skilled trade.

They still do that?

Whan my father graduated HS (or whatever it was called) in Germany he was asked "what do you want to be, plumber, painter or electrician?" He chose painter and they sent him to training. When he came to this country, that's what he did for a living.

I never graduated college and went from being a plumber to a machinist to an AV tech now (and voiceovers) among a few other jobs sprinkled in. Busted my ### at every stop.

They have a tracking system that starts pretty young (while the kids are still in elementary). They do all kinds of testing and evaluations of where to place the kids.

The top track is groomed for university. In fact, you have to go through the top track to go to college.

The middle track is a year shorter and trains the kids for more vocational roles. What we would view as two-year associate degree type of work.

The bottom track is training for factory jobs and service jobs.

There are problems with the system as it is today though. There is very little opportunity to move up if you get placed in the lower tracks initially. Also, poor kids end up in the bottom track at really high rates. As my friend put it, you tend to know which kids will end up in which track once you see their parents.

Thanks for the info. Probably hasn't changed much since the 50's.

 

[Slapdash]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Completely down with that. Pretty much the way it is in Germany right now. Every kid graduates with some basic skills in a skilled trade.

They still do that?

Whan my father graduated HS (or whatever it was called) in Germany he was asked "what do you want to be, plumber, painter or electrician?" He chose painter and they sent him to training. When he came to this country, that's what he did for a living.

I never graduated college and went from being a plumber to a machinist to an AV tech now (and voiceovers) among a few other jobs sprinkled in. Busted my ### at every stop.

They have a tracking system that starts pretty young (while the kids are still in elementary). They do all kinds of testing and evaluations of where to place the kids.

The top track is groomed for university. In fact, you have to go through the top track to go to college.

The middle track is a year shorter and trains the kids for more vocational roles. What we would view as two-year associate degree type of work.

The bottom track is training for factory jobs and service jobs.

There are problems with the system as it is today though. There is very little opportunity to move up if you get placed in the lower tracks initially. Also, poor kids end up in the bottom track at really high rates. As my friend put it, you tend to know which kids will end up in which track once you see their parents.

Big problems here, I agree.

My highschool did have a set of engineering courses which provided some exposure to hands on stuff for higher track students.

I once took a graphic arts class instead of the standard, but pointless honors US history class most of my classmates where in during my sophomore year. It was quite amazing how different the cultures were; the people in each class were from completely different parts of town.

 

[Slapdash]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Would you consider "18 month trade program or military service"?

Both strike me as awful ideas.

 

[RCon]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Would you consider "18 month trade program or military service"?

Both strike me as awful ideas.

I'm not generally a fan of "mandatory" or "requirement" when imposed by the government, but I'd be all for private colleges implementing such a requirement on their own.

 

[Ignoramus]

I find it hard to believe a fool like JB is real.

I've been saying this since Day 1.

 

[igbomb]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

 

[Slapdash]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Would you consider "18 month trade program or military service"?

Both strike me as awful ideas.

I'm not generally a fan of "mandatory" or "requirement" when imposed by the government, but I'd be all for private colleges implementing such a requirement on their own.

I'm not a fan of the idea that we should limit the potential of high acheivers by delaying their education and therefore contributions to their chosen field in this manner.

 

[NCCommish]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

Would they make a decent living? Could they afford to live in a decent place? Would they be happy? If the answer is yes to all that then rock on.

 

[cstu]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

 

[igbomb]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

 

[Loan Sharks]

I just checked Snopes and got nothing , I can't believe this is real. It sounds far to scripted to be legit.

 

[matuski]

We can't find enough people to work in production. The guys we do have are making Boatloads with overtime and bonuses.

Define boatloads.

 

[matuski]

I find it hard to believe a fool like JB is real.

I've been saying this since Day 1.

Nice.

 

[East Coast Bias]

We can't find enough people to work in production. The guys we do have are making Boatloads with overtime and bonuses.

Define boatloads.

At the glass plant I worked at for a year, entry level production workers were paid $10/hr and worked in some miserable conditions.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

We can all nod our heads in agreement here, but I'll be interested to hear from someone who can claim to have actually advised his kid to go to a tech school over college. My nephew just finished high school and honestly has no business going to college. he's not really motivated to do anything and is taking on big debt basically just to continue having fun with his friends. But I have to admit that basically describes me at the same age. I've loved this kid like my own since the day he was born, and would have a hard time advising him to go be a plumber rather than finishing college, even while agreeing that may be the best advice.

 

[tri-man 47]

Its a shame really because when I was younger, doing things with your hands was always more fun than just watching TV right up until the point where open-ended access to TV became the norm. We were always outside, playing baseball and building forts. And if it was night time and we were inside, we were playing with legos and similar toys that more closely resemble engineering and trade work than sitting at a desk typing and generating reports.

I did have a friend that sold components in the cube next to me a decade ago. Put himself through night school to learn to be a welder because he really enjoyed helping a friend who had a metal art business. Got a good job and left the sales world for good.

Two of my nephews (twins) have been going through welding school. It's not easy - one dropped out in his first attempt after failing an early quality test. I've been actively encouraging them for the reasons you mentioned up top.

 

[NCCommish]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

We can all nod our heads in agreement here, but I'll be interested to hear from someone who can claim to have actually advised his kid to go to a tech school over college. My nephew just finished high school and honestly has no business going to college. he's not really motivated to do anything and is taking on big debt basically just to continue having fun with his friends. But I have to admit that basically describes me at the same age. I've loved this kid like my own since the day he was born, and would have a hard time advising him to go be a plumber rather than finishing college, even while agreeing that may be the best advice.

Are you a bad person if you tell him he should pursue a job where the median starting wage is 42k a year? Sure if you think he can become say a Chemical Engineer then college sounds worth it. But I am sitting here right now training a person with a 4 year degree to do sales. Psychology BA gets you very little but a big bill.

 

[humpback]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's all free!

Besides major economic differences, they have a much smaller, much less diverse population.

 

[cstu]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's all free!

Besides major economic differences, they have a much smaller, much less diverse population.

I guess you missed #3 and the fact that Germany has the 5th highest individual tax rates in the world.

In other words, Germans are happy to pay higher taxes to live in a country were everyone has health care and is able to go to school without mortgaging their life for the next 30 years.

 

[humpback]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's all free!

Besides major economic differences, they have a much smaller, much less diverse population.

I guess you missed #3 and the fact that Germany has the 5th highest individual tax rates in the world.

In other words, Germans are happy to pay higher taxes to live in a country were everyone has health care and is able to go to school without mortgaging their life for the next 30 years.

Didn't miss a thing, and your statement only helps to reinforce mine.

 

[bosoxs45]

There are hundreds of thousands of jobs available right now that people simply do not want. This is not because the jobs are “bad,” or the pay is lousy. It’s because we’ve raised an entire generation to view these opportunities as subordinate to a four-year degree. Good jobs are going begging because hard work and skilled labor are no longer valued in the same way as they were 50 years ago.

forgot to mention how many vocational jobs are being sent overseas. Also, a lot of US companies aren't willing to offer co-op program/training to vocational HS schools because of the recession the US had in 2008. I know a lot of young folks who were promised jobs straight out of high school (IE Auto industry ; carpentry) had to go to liberal arts colleges.

ETA - he did in fact

 

[Guest]

We can't find enough people to work in production. The guys we do have are making Boatloads with overtime and bonuses.

Define boatloads.

I guess "boatloads" is relative. We have quite a few welders making $14-$18 an hour. Add 20 hours of time-and-a-half, plus an $500 monthly bonus if they work X number of hours, and they are making a very good wage for this area (very small town Nebraska).

It's funny that the younger single guys don't take advantage of the optional overtime, but the older family guys do.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Well, sure as long as you don't mind living in some backwater socialist hell where the economy is in shambles and the work ethic has been totally destroyed.

 

[Rayderr]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Well, sure as long as you don't mind living in some backwater socialist hell where the economy is in shambles and the work ethic has been totally destroyed.

Not sure why we're even discussing Germany here. The system would never fly here in the US. This is a country that has the philosophy that if you work for it, you can be anything you want. It's not going to fly when the gov't starts telling people "No, you can't be a doctor. You have to be a bathroom attendant."

 

[SacramentoBob]

I disagree with forced vocational training, but agree with the idea of more voluntary educational tracks at the HS level.

 

[bosoxs45]

I think we are starting to see the shift from everyone thinking they have to go to college. If my kids were old enough, I would advise then strongly to look at other options. I can't tell you how many old students I see who tell me they can't get a job and neither can any of their friends. These jobs they want are jobs they went to college for. Sure they could go back to a technical school but they wasted 4 years and a lot of money.

I have a good job so I'm not really looking. But if I didn't, I would definitely check out what he was offering.

And I agree, JB is made up.

Part of the problem with these colleges is you have college kids who don't take advantage of internships while in school.

BS in communications with no skills isn't going to land you a job after graduation.

 

[SacramentoBob]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here.

What we learned last time we did this thread was all the guys with white collar jobs and degrees wanted their kids to learn a trade and all the trade guys wanted their kids to get a 4-year degree.

 

[igbomb]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's all free!

Besides major economic differences, they have a much smaller, much less diverse population.

I knew someone would jump on the 'free' part. You're right. It's not free. The ability to offer 4 and 5 is driven by the presence of 3.

But I hear the smaller, less diverse argument all the time when people praise the positive aspects of German or Scandinavian government. Why does that matter? Germany is not a small country. They are one of the 20 largest by population in the world and are the 4th largest by GDP.

And please explain why diversity matters?

 

[DrJ]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

It's kind of funny because I would tend to believe many of us have 4 year degrees, work in office environments, sales, IT, law etc. And the generation most represented here (30-50) was really the first to be told that a 4 year degree was necessary.

While I am in IT I am actually a tech school guy. 2 year AAS. Of course right now people want a 4 year bachelors to do what I did with a 2 year degree 25 years ago. I see this for level 1 help desk types and it is mind boggling to me.

I'd guess a lot of that is for resume pruning purposes. There's probably (certainly) piles of applicants for these types of positions as IT is kind of used as a fall back career. And while it doesn't take a lot of skill for these low level positions, what's the point of taking someone without a degree when you have plenty of people in your pile of applicants that have them?

As you get into harder to find skill sets though, it's still more skills oriented. You don't have a pile of applicants willing and able to do the job. I've seen job postings for Linux engineers with "0-2" years of experience paying like 50K. I saw a billboard going down the street that basically said "Do you know Linux? We want to hire you". Now these people don't actually care as much about your degree. They're obviously hurting to get skilled talent, so any demonstration of your ability is going to be worth something.

 

[DrJ]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

It's kind of funny because I would tend to believe many of us have 4 year degrees, work in office environments, sales, IT, law etc. And the generation most represented here (30-50) was really the first to be told that a 4 year degree was necessary.

While I am in IT I am actually a tech school guy. 2 year AAS. Of course right now people want a 4 year bachelors to do what I did with a 2 year degree 25 years ago. I see this for level 1 help desk types and it is mind boggling to me.

I'd guess a lot of that is for resume pruning purposes. There's probably (certainly) piles of applicants for these types of positions as IT is kind of used as a fall back career. And while it doesn't take a lot of skill for these low level positions, what's the point of taking someone without a degree when you have plenty of people in your pile of applicants that have them?

As you get into harder to find skill sets though, it's still more skills oriented. You don't have a pile of applicants willing and able to do the job. I've seen job postings for Linux engineers with "0-2" years of experience paying like 50K. I saw a billboard going down the street that basically said "Do you know Linux? We want to hire you". Now these people don't actually care as much about your degree. They're obviously hurting to get skilled talent, so any demonstration of your ability is going to be worth something.

Also, you could get yourself the skills to do a ton of these jobs from the comfort of your own home. A free tier AWS account, a couple of books, maybe an account at github gives you just about everything you need to learn these skills. And maybe even build up a nice "resume" like in the case of github. Linux engineer, web developer, DBA skills, you name it. But you'll actually have to pick up a book and put in some effort. Unlike the late 90's, it isn't enough to say "Me and my buddies have network doom parties" and get a job.

 

[Ignoramus]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Well, sure as long as you don't mind living in some backwater socialist hell where the economy is in shambles and the work ethic has been totally destroyed.

How long did you live in Germany?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Well, sure as long as you don't mind living in some backwater socialist hell where the economy is in shambles and the work ethic has been totally destroyed.

How long did you live in Germany?

Just long enough to learn the word sarkasmus.

 

[Jutz]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When you vote for Rick Santorum:

President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. Not all folks are gifted in the same way, Some people have incredible gifts with their hands...there are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

He got ripped for saying it (surprise). But he was right.

 

[Slapdash]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When you vote for Rick Santorum:

President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. Not all folks are gifted in the same way, Some people have incredible gifts with their hands...there are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

He got ripped for saying it (surprise). But he was right.

I still agree with you that Santorum would have given the GOP a better shot. No matter what the politicos say.

 

[NCCommish]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When you vote for Rick Santorum:

President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. Not all folks are gifted in the same way, Some people have incredible gifts with their hands...there are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

He got ripped for saying it (surprise). But he was right.

No he got ripped for the stupidity of the snob statement. And then of course the rest of the stupidity about liberals and all that. If he had just said we need more technical training resources no one would have said #### about it.

 

[Jutz]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When you vote for Rick Santorum:

President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. Not all folks are gifted in the same way, Some people have incredible gifts with their hands...there are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

He got ripped for saying it (surprise). But he was right.

No he got ripped for the stupidity of the snob statement. And then of course the rest of the stupidity about liberals and all that. If he had just said we need more technical training resources no one would have said #### about it.

If he would have never made the 'snob' statement... and he only said we need more technical training resources... the quote would have never made the news and would never be reported. He had to come out strong to get the exposure, and I completely agree with his statement. The 'snob' quote was judged as 'false' by the fact checkers because Obama made some mild mention of trade schools in a speech, but we all know Rick was right.

 

[NCCommish]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When you vote for Rick Santorum:

President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. Not all folks are gifted in the same way, Some people have incredible gifts with their hands...there are good decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them. Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image. I want to create jobs so people can remake their children into their image, not his.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/25/rick-santorum-obama-snob-college_n_1301854.html

He got ripped for saying it (surprise). But he was right.

No he got ripped for the stupidity of the snob statement. And then of course the rest of the stupidity about liberals and all that. If he had just said we need more technical training resources no one would have said #### about it.

If he would have never made the 'snob' statement... and he only said we need more technical training resources... the quote would have never made the news and would never be reported. He had to come out strong to get the exposure, and I completely agree with his statement. The 'snob' quote was judged as 'false' by the fact checkers because Obama made some mild mention of trade schools in a speech, but we all know Rick was right.

Right so he just made his usual host of stupid remarks to draw attention to it. Or he is a dumb ### Christian Taliban type. I am going with the latter.

 

[Jutz]

I know it sucks when the guy you hate the most basically made the exact same point you are trying to make... about a year or two earlier then you did. Go ahead and bash the guy all you want. The two of you are pretty much in exact agreement on this subject, and it's tough for you to accept. So... name calling. Old hat for Santorum.

 

[humpback]

A couple of things that are very different in Germany than here that makes their tracking work a little better:

1. A waiter is considered a viable career. They make a livable wage and have better benefits (vacation, universal health care, etc.).

2. There is less social stigma with being a lower track student than there is here. You didn't fail if you spend your life as a waiter in a restaurant. It's certainly still present to a degree, but how many of us would be content with our own children going through a low track to work in the service industry?

3. Higher taxes.

4. Free health care.

5. Free higher education.

Beautiful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's all free!

Besides major economic differences, they have a much smaller, much less diverse population.

I knew someone would jump on the 'free' part. You're right. It's not free. The ability to offer 4 and 5 is driven by the presence of 3.

But I hear the smaller, less diverse argument all the time when people praise the positive aspects of German or Scandinavian government. Why does that matter? Germany is not a small country. They are one of the 20 largest by population in the world and are the 4th largest by GDP.

And please explain why diversity matters?

As you said, it's not free, so 4 and 5 don't really exist. "Taxpayer funded" would be more accurate.

Germany isn't small (those Nordic countries are tiny), but they're about 1/4 of our size, and far more homogeneous. You really don't see why that matters? There are several reasons, but do you think it's easier to establish consensus on things in a smaller country where most everyone is alike, or in a country 4 times it's size with people with numerous backgrounds/cultures/values/beliefs? Do you think people are more willing to help those who are more similar to them or different? Etc.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Good god, are you back with this Santorum for President nonsense again?

 

[Jutz]

Good god, are you back with this Santorum for President nonsense again?

Never got off it. I'm thinking 2016. Have you seen The Christmas Candle

 

[boofatty]

Im a construction manager so I hire a lot of trade companies for different scopes of work. This is always an issue on every project, for every trade in any location.

One thing I hear constantly is that generally speaking the younger people pursuing these types of jobs (dirty jobs), have a tendency to be at the lowest levels of society and they bring all the baggage associated with it. That speaking very generally of course. I can tell you plenty of stories of great workers that were sidelined because they end up in jail, disappear or some other reason you'd typically associate with low IQs, societal status, whatever. The diamonds in the rough can easily pull in 75k and up in some cases with the right company, in virtually any trade specialty although many are simply worth more than others. Top notch welders, those with special skills within their trade can break 100k if they work it right.

I am likely going to welding school this year for fun and because I enjoy learning new skills. In 2015 I may get a 2yr degree in IT, just for fun. I love 2yr degrees, they're cheap, theyre short, to the point and you feel like you've got something when it's done. I suck at golf and I'm not into hunting/fishing, so what else am I gonna do with free time?

Mike Rowe has said before, its our culture that have made those jobs undesirable and hes right. But we have also forced wages down on those jobs in many areas that it is natural for it to swing back in the opposite direction. I wont defend unions because Ive dealt first hand with their BS. But i think there is a place for what they can do, I just think its an example of one of the worst run organizations in history. As the trades start to make a comeback we will probably see unions grow. Hopefully they become a 21st century organization because I think they can do good things.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Is this actually real? JB sounds like studio audience plant.

JB: Getting their hands dirty isn’t the problem. Being paid minimum wage with no Health Care IS the problem!

JB: Do you realize how many jobs would be available if the greedy corporations kept manufacturing and technical jobs here?

I was thinking the same thing. No way is that a real person.

That said, big kudos to Rowe. I work with a fair number of students who would be much better off dropping out of college and learning a trade instead. They'd make more, they'd have less debt, and most importantly they'd be happier that way.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Completely down with that. Pretty much the way it is in Germany right now. Every kid graduates with some basic skills in a skilled trade.

No, I really don't like this. There are lots of people for whom college is clearly the right decision -- I was one of those people as were most of us in the FFA. 18 months in a trade program is just 18 wasted months.

I'm all for bumping up vocational training opportunities, but making it compulsory is going too far.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

This is all very interesting. I have always wondered how a parent lets a kid get a degree from college knowing that runs 100k plus to get a job making 30k a year. I work with several people who have paid over 150k for a degree to make 28k. Also, no one is really watching the market trends so that colleges are not pumping out 300k kids a year with HR degrees that are going to have to work at Red Lobster to make ends meet.

On the other hand physical work trades are not for everyone. I was talking to my HVAC guy who had to come out and fix my a/c last summer. I said to him that his job since he worked for himself seemed really cool. He said it sucked and that if he had to do it over again he would try and find a 9-5 job inside and not have to battle the elements all year long. Very hot summer, and freezing winters.

 

[Foosball God]

This is another subject where we see broad consensus in the FFA. Always has been a cross aisle winner here. When will we put enough pressure on the powers that be to make something happen? When will we not vote for the person who doesn't support skills education? When will we start telling our kids that there is dignity in all jobs and that you aren't a failure if you don't get a four year degree as long as you have a trained skill? That's when something will change.

I've said it before and got hammered for it, but I believe an 18 month trade program should be a requirement before moving on to a 4 year college.

Completely down with that. Pretty much the way it is in Germany right now. Every kid graduates with some basic skills in a skilled trade.

No, I really don't like this. There are lots of people for whom college is clearly the right decision -- I was one of those people as were most of us in the FFA. 18 months in a trade program is just 18 wasted months.

I'm all for bumping up vocational training opportunities, but making it compulsory is going too far.

I don't know that I agree with this sentiment. Carpentry, plumbing, those kinds of skills will help you your whole life, even if you are in a white collar profession.

 

[Christo]

I agree with MR on this. We have turned being skilled labor, the very backbone of the middle class, into some kind of failure. It's ridiculous.

Yep. Rahm Emanuel was on TV yesterday proclaiming that the goal of the Chicago public schools will be to get every student ready to go to college. Absolutely ridiculous. First, that shouldn't be the goal. Second, the goal is unachievable.

 

[cstu]

I agree with MR on this. We have turned being skilled labor, the very backbone of the middle class, into some kind of failure. It's ridiculous.

Yep. Rahm Emanuel was on TV yesterday proclaiming that the goal of the Chicago public schools will be to get every student ready to go to college. Absolutely ridiculous. First, that shouldn't be the goal. Second, the goal is unachievable.

Get ready doesn't necessarily mean go to college. How hard is HS that kids can't graduate with enough knowledge to allow them to attend college if their arc welding plans don't work out?

 

[Christo]

I agree with MR on this. We have turned being skilled labor, the very backbone of the middle class, into some kind of failure. It's ridiculous.

Yep. Rahm Emanuel was on TV yesterday proclaiming that the goal of the Chicago public schools will be to get every student ready to go to college. Absolutely ridiculous. First, that shouldn't be the goal. Second, the goal is unachievable.

Get ready doesn't necessarily mean go to college. How hard is HS that kids can't graduate with enough knowledge to allow them to attend college if their arc welding plans don't work out?

2 problems. 1, it sends kids the wrong message. 2, vo-tech curriculum suffers. Why shouldn't a kid who wants to be a welder, plumber, carpenter, electrician, etc. be able to study those disciplines in HS?

 

[Tiger Fan]

1. Grass is always greener on the other side

2. Rowe is right, there are a ####load of vocational jobs in my region (southeast), where you can make some serious coin. Im in the oil and gas industry, and if you're willing to go offshore for a bit (2 weeks on and 2 weeks off), you can make 6 figures pretty quick w/o a high school degree.

3. Boofatty above is right, often these jobs have a bad stigma so youre getting society's cast offs.

4. After the massive layoffs in Detroit, some of my contractors went up there to recruit b/c they had similair skill requirements. People up there didt want to come work down here for 2 weeks at a time and go back (or move permanantely) they would have rather stay unemployed and wait....so they got permission from the gov't to hire indonesians