Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
You're watching a HS football game and you see the ref do this..... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That is crazy, With that having been caught on camera, hopefully that guy never officiates another game.
In The Zone
Footballguy
The first thing that came to my mind.
JD Clowney
JD Clowney
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
That play never gets old.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Don't just focus on the chain, watch the football itself. The guy cheated in two directions.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
That was….bizarre. I’d love to hear his explanation for that
zamboni
Footballguy
Could you describe the ruckus?
Galileo
Footballguy
Refs at the younger levels move the ball all the damn time. As was told to me by a ref when I was coaching (9th grade at the time) they like to have the football on a marked line whenever possible. Sometimes that means moving it forward a little...sometimes moving it back a little. I am not saying that is what they are doing here. This was messed up and blatant at a time when convenience would not be a good excuse.. But to be honest, from a pure measurement standpoint, the spotting of the ball, the placement of the chains, the accuracy of chain length, the movement of the chains from sidelines to location of the ball...all of it is ripe with uncertainty which makes the close measurements iffy to begin with. Tough to swallow in a game of inches.
Galileo
Footballguy
First time I saw this was when I was coaching 5th/6th grade youth football. We were playing a playoff game and the ref literally moved the ball about a foot to where the chain was pulled. This maneuver was to the benefit of the other team. The whole game actually seemed to be filled with phantom calls whenever we did something successful. Something seemed off...homer ref crew perhaps? We were playing on the other team's home field. Anyway, parents on our sideline were livid. Lot's of yelling and screaming at the refs throughout. After the ball move, one of our parents who was on the sidelines because he was also our "team doctor", charged out on the field and got in the refs face. There was a pretty heated exchange, nothing physical, but certainly not a great display in front of the kids. When doc came back to the sideline, he said that the ref was drunk and he reeked of alcohol. We lost a close game, and several parents then went after the ref when the game ended. Again nothing got physical, but a lot of commotion. I didn't see all the detail because I was huddled with the team for a few post game words. Parents took the issue to the league governing board and I heard that ref got banned. I never really followed up on it though, so not sure if that actually transpired or not.
I saw a similar move while I was an assistant high school coach. Again, the ball was literally moved to the benefit of the other team. Our head coach went nuts. He ended up getting an unsportsmanlike penalty and eventually ejected from the game. Fans in the stands were all fired up shouting pretty nasty stuff and continued riding the ref for a while. Eventually the commotion calmed, as we ended up winning that game.
zamboni
Footballguy
I was merely quoting The Breakfast Club, but that’s a crazy turn of events. Thanks for sharing - some people are nuts when it comes to youth/HS sports.
belljr
Footballguy
:cough: :cough: :cough:
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
You know what they say. Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and pivotal fourth downs at the end of the game.
Deranged Hermit
Not cool & Pissed
I read another article that said the lead guy on the chain crew pulled too hard and actually pulled the chains forward, but that still doesn't explain the ref moving the ball. Weird stuff there.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Your team doctor should have been arrested
ChiefD
Footballguy
Also lawn darts.
Galileo
Footballguy
Definitely not appropriate...not sure it rose to level of criminal. I know some places do have laws on the books these days. This was back in mid 90's. Funny thing is that this guy was normally pretty mild mannered. Outside of this instance I don't recall him ever getting worked up about anything.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I'm a high school football and baseball official in Oregon. A local school board member and parent went after a crew from my same association after a JV football game this week. Apparently he actually laid hands on the referee in some manner. Pretty sure he's facing assault and harassment charges. These people all need to be locked up.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Good thing this would never happen in an NFL game.
Galileo
Footballguy
dawgtrails
Footballguy
Terrible that anything like this happens at such a young age. Reffing is a ****ty job. Parents are the worst
Al Czervik
Not wearing pants
I'm a high school football official here in Michigan. Only been doing it for two years and luckily have not run into something like this. But have seen/heard a lot of crazy people.
Also, in the video I'm not sure why they even measured. Looked like the line to gain marker was on the yard line and the ball was there for a first down.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I've officiated football from youth leagues up to Div II College (where I currently work).
Yes, this is inexcusable. The guy should be pulled from further playoff considerations (looks like that has happened). Anything that calls the integrity of the game into question is a big no-no....especially out in front of everyone with a measurement. Saying he should "never ref again" is ridiculous though.
Training refs on how to handle every little situation is very difficult and takes time. How to handle a measurement in general takes like a special training session and is actually a rare occurrence in a game (maybe once every 3-4 games?). We hate doing measurements because it is such an inexact science and we do a lot of things before it gets to that point to try and avoid them. I once moved a ball because the head coach was wanting a measurement and my umpire hadn't put the ball down in the right spot. The game was a blowout and it didn't matter and we got the play right and avoided the measurement, but it looked shaky. That was my second year of officiating. Now I know how to run in on a tight spot, take the ball from the umpire and put it where I want it myself to take away the questions. I had to do it wrong once before I learned how to do it right. In HS games you have a lot of new officials every year and they will have to make some mistakes to learn from them. Also, old guys just forget lessons they've learned before or just make a mistake and sometimes they try to make up for it, but making up for that mistake looks worse.
All that said, people need to calm the F down at games, especially lower level games. Officiating is filled with nuance, philosophies, judgement calls and pressure situations that makes "getting it right" difficult at times. 99.9% of the time we want to just get it right. Yes, there are some rare instances where a ref is shady or has a grudge with a coach, etc. But that is extremely rare occurrence. We are making HS teams play on Thursdays and Saturdays because we literally don't have enough refs in the area to cover all the games on Friday nights. Unless you've tried to officiate yourself, I suggest you take a breath and understand you just don't know how hard it is.
Yes, this is inexcusable. The guy should be pulled from further playoff considerations (looks like that has happened). Anything that calls the integrity of the game into question is a big no-no....especially out in front of everyone with a measurement. Saying he should "never ref again" is ridiculous though.
Training refs on how to handle every little situation is very difficult and takes time. How to handle a measurement in general takes like a special training session and is actually a rare occurrence in a game (maybe once every 3-4 games?). We hate doing measurements because it is such an inexact science and we do a lot of things before it gets to that point to try and avoid them. I once moved a ball because the head coach was wanting a measurement and my umpire hadn't put the ball down in the right spot. The game was a blowout and it didn't matter and we got the play right and avoided the measurement, but it looked shaky. That was my second year of officiating. Now I know how to run in on a tight spot, take the ball from the umpire and put it where I want it myself to take away the questions. I had to do it wrong once before I learned how to do it right. In HS games you have a lot of new officials every year and they will have to make some mistakes to learn from them. Also, old guys just forget lessons they've learned before or just make a mistake and sometimes they try to make up for it, but making up for that mistake looks worse.
All that said, people need to calm the F down at games, especially lower level games. Officiating is filled with nuance, philosophies, judgement calls and pressure situations that makes "getting it right" difficult at times. 99.9% of the time we want to just get it right. Yes, there are some rare instances where a ref is shady or has a grudge with a coach, etc. But that is extremely rare occurrence. We are making HS teams play on Thursdays and Saturdays because we literally don't have enough refs in the area to cover all the games on Friday nights. Unless you've tried to officiate yourself, I suggest you take a breath and understand you just don't know how hard it is.
Jayrod
Footballguy
As for reasoning why, it looks like the sideline official just put the ball down on the line and intended to make it a first down. Likely the chain crew didn't do a great job of either setting the chains originally or setting the clip on the correct side of the line. The referee was probably just trying to compensate for all of that and wanted to make it a first down. If you want to do that, just walk over, look at it and signal first down and move on without pulling the chains out.
Once in a college game (NAIA level), we had a 3rd and 5 play with an offsides on the defense. We fully intended for the 5 yd penalty to result in a 1st down. After the Center Judge put the ball down, he left it slightly short of the 1st down and the coach immediately started yelling that it wasn't a first down. We have literally picked up and moved the ball twice from its original spot after 1st down and then manually walked 5 yards to spot the ball. In no way whatsoever should their have been an issue with us just calling it a first down, but my referee decided to do a measurement. Lo and behold, we are 2 inches short of the first after measurement and now have a 3rd and inches. The chain crew hadn't set the chains on the correct side of the line and thus they were stretched out to the front of the line instead of the back where they should have been. The lines on the field themselves are 3" wide....my CJ should have set the ball past the line as well to ensure it, or we should have just declared it a first and moved the sticks before setting the ball down.
I got a downgrade for "incorrect mechanics" (yes we get evaluated every game in college at every level) on that one because I was the sideline official in charge of the chains and should have instructed them properly to avoid the measurement. They were college kids and I had 5 minutes before the game to tell them how to do their job.
This stuff is just freaking hard to get right all of the time and coaches will push and manipulate everything they can to get an advantage. It can be exhausting at times.
Once in a college game (NAIA level), we had a 3rd and 5 play with an offsides on the defense. We fully intended for the 5 yd penalty to result in a 1st down. After the Center Judge put the ball down, he left it slightly short of the 1st down and the coach immediately started yelling that it wasn't a first down. We have literally picked up and moved the ball twice from its original spot after 1st down and then manually walked 5 yards to spot the ball. In no way whatsoever should their have been an issue with us just calling it a first down, but my referee decided to do a measurement. Lo and behold, we are 2 inches short of the first after measurement and now have a 3rd and inches. The chain crew hadn't set the chains on the correct side of the line and thus they were stretched out to the front of the line instead of the back where they should have been. The lines on the field themselves are 3" wide....my CJ should have set the ball past the line as well to ensure it, or we should have just declared it a first and moved the sticks before setting the ball down.
I got a downgrade for "incorrect mechanics" (yes we get evaluated every game in college at every level) on that one because I was the sideline official in charge of the chains and should have instructed them properly to avoid the measurement. They were college kids and I had 5 minutes before the game to tell them how to do their job.
This stuff is just freaking hard to get right all of the time and coaches will push and manipulate everything they can to get an advantage. It can be exhausting at times.
Doug B
Footballguy
During a 1995 game at SF, New Orleans Saints DT Pig Goff "walked into" the football after the ref spotted it on a crucial Niners third down late in the game. The effect was that Goff kicked the ball a few feet away and the ref had to re-spot it. The re-spot was at least a football length short of the original spot, maybe more. In the end, the Saints got the ball back and held on for an 11-7 win.
I've been trying to find that play online for years with no success. Here are the ESPN highlights of the contest -- really surprised Goff's kick wasn't shown.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I work line of scrimmage (Line Judge) in college. We spot the ball on 80+% of the plays in a game (literally 100+ times a game). Sometimes I'll watch an entire game I've worked on film to see how accurate my spots were. Usually miss anywhere from 2-5 spots in every game (off a 1/2 to full yard... very rarely more than that). Had one earlier this year where I failed to give the team a 1st down when I should have twice in the same game. On one, the runner skipped over top of the tackler and I just thought he was down when they went to the ground initially, but no part of the runner was down until after they bounced across the 1st down line. On the second, a guy caught a 10 yard pass near the sideline and got spun around by the tackler. At one point the ball crossed the first down line, but I left them a 1/2 yard short. On both of those plays, they were around 10 yard gains so I'm moving to the spot as the play is happening. Those are the hardest because I'm behind the play trying to determine when the guy is down while I'm running. We don't have instant replay in D-2 games, so it is all on us on the field to get them right. Luckily that game was about a 20+ point win, but I hate getting anything wrong.
Most guys at my level and above spend a lot of time reviewing their own performances and we are always evaluated. In the levels below me, you are happy someone is willing to show up and do it, so expectations of evaluations and getting better are really just up to the individual. The thing is NONE of the officials that work anything short of the NFL are just officials. Every single one of us have another job of some sort. Trying to travel to and from your games and work the game is a pretty big time commitment in itself and that is all we get paid for. Guys just don't have the ability or desire to do much else in a lot of cases and in order to really learn and get better takes extra time that frankly a lot of HS refs just aren't willing to do.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I know an SEC official really well. I know how serious they take everything about doing a game. I am sure you do as well. Spotting the ball in the correct spot down to the inch is almost impossible.
In the Michigan-MSU game MSU went for it on 4th and about 1 1/2 yards. The ref spotted to ball for about a 2 yard gain and first down, the announcers kept saying the runner just got back to the line of scrimmage. Replay reversed it but I am sure the ref thought he had the correct spot.
but still what the HS ref did was inexcusable.
Last edited:
Jayrod
Footballguy
I concur that what he did was inexcusable.
I didn't get to see much of MSU/Mich and just found the clip on the highlights. It was a 4th and 1, and he missed the spot by a 1/2 yard. I was going to talk about how hard it is to rule on runs up the middle because you just can't actually see the football during the play, but this play was opened up to the ruling official with a fairly unobstructed view of the ball carrier and I'm not sure what he saw that made him think the spot was where he had it.
Thank you for being an official. All officials need to be told that more often....................especially at the youth level.
Youth officials would be perfect for older youths to do but since parents think 8/9 yr olds are playing for millions of dollars it really makes it difficult to have 16/17 year olds subject themselves to that abuse.
As a side note, both sides are to blame when things escalate. As part of coaching our disctrict made all coaches attend the umpire two day training session at the beginning of the year for the umpires in the area. It really opened my eyes as to how things get escalated so quickly. The overwhelming theme was that the umpires need "take control" and not let anybody question anything you do. Put them in their place and show your dominance. This was hammered into all the umpires for the two days. Don't let anybody question/doubt/talk/discuss anything with you. Put them in their place right from the start. To me this starts the game off badly as there is already a confrontational feel from the opening manager's meeting as that is where the umps were being told to set the tone. I really think that leads to a lot of tension before there really is anything to be tense about and I was shocked it was drilled in so heavily.
Don't get me wrong, I can completely understand how an ump should be in control and that because of unruly fans/coaches it is beneficial to stay in control. However, there are mutliple ways to do that and starting with a chip on your shoulder and being adversarial from the start only increases the tension.
A year or two after that I decided to help out and ump for a couple seasons. This was 11/12 year old little league Major division to give you an idea of the age range/level. I started every game talking to the managers letting them know my approach. I had a wide strike zone (i wanted kids to swing the bat and put the ball in play) and I told the coaches ahead of time. I also joked with them in between innings and owned my mistakes (i definitely made quite a bit). I joked with the fans between innings about various calls and other things. It really helped to defuse the tenseness throughout the game. In the 2 years and 50+ games I officiated I had zero heated run-ins with fans or coaches. Games went smoothly and everyone stayed sane. This wasn't because I got everything right. I missed plenty of calls but I also owned up to them. Nothing defuses a coach when you sincerely agree that you missed a call (if I actually did). I didn't cave but I was just sincere with my approach and was honest with them while letting them tell their side.
It was actually a really fun experience, and it should be required for all coaches at a minimum to officiate a few games every year.
dgreen
Footballguy
Every first down (except first and goal) should be place at a marked line.
Zow
Footballguy
I consider myself a very fair, calm guy who generally knows the rules better than most. In other words, I think I'd make a good ref/umpire/official.
In my life I've officiated:
- girls fastpitch softball
- men's slow pitch softball
- boys baseball
- adult men's basketball (oof - this was so brutally awful and challenging)
- and, the cherry on top, girls'/women's powder puff football (which sounds like it'd be fun - which is what I thought going into it - but holy **** that was an incredibly miserable experience and edges out uncoordinated men playing basketball)
The baseball/softball wasn't bad, but I generally came away from these experiences just depressed and disappointed. As such, I have a huge respect for officials and try to be as gentle as possible with them. It doesn't shock me at all that there is a shortage of qualified officials because it is a thankless job usually and the money probably isn't so good enough that decently financially situated people would do it for the money.
The video in the OP, though, just does look bad. Which is unfortunate because many will jump to the conclusion that the ref was intentionally doing something shady, but as you noted above he may have just been correcting the spot. I wish he would have gone on the mic and explained what he did.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I completely agree with all of this.
The problem is that not everyone has the personality for it. Some guys are naturally insecure/defensive or simply get overwhelmed by confrontation. I'd love it if officials could be psychologically profiled to see if they can handle it, but since we are already short officials, that just isn't feasible...so it is basically trial by fire. As a result, youth and HS sports are that testing ground and you will get a lot of tough confrontations.
There is a guy worked basketball with in my area that is the epitome of the perfect personality as an official. Honestly, he really isn't that good of a ref (bad judgement, poor rules knowledge), but the coaches LOVE him. Anytime I worked a game with him, it didn't matter what we did on the court, everything went smooth with the coaches because he could diffuse them every single time. I tried to emulate him as much as I can, but I just don't have his same personality and that's OK. I have to lean on being as polished, professional and knowledgeable as possible in order to handle coaches because if things get messy, I struggle to calm coaches down because I struggle to stay calm myself. But basketball is the hardest, IMO. A lot more frequent interactions and a lot more judgement calls involved makes for many more confrontational situations.
Zow
Footballguy
Yeah, I would imagine the "perfect" official is one who can acknowledge his mistakes openly but not let himself be influenced by a bad call and/or a particular player or coach. But that's obviously soooo much easier said than done.
As a player, I never respected the "don't even question me or I'll go from zero to 100" umpire/ref. I think it's natural for a player or a coach who is emotionally invested in the game (to a healthy extent) to question if there's a bad call. So, I do think it's appropriate for an official to give some leeway to a coach/player who voices an objection or simply asks a question about a call. There's obviously then a line that shouldn't be crossed (a player/coach should never get in an official's face, insults/name-calling shouldn't be tolerated, and perhaps questioning every call should be stopped) but in a perfect world an official should expect some healthy criticism and I'm not sure I like the training where officials are being taught to just maintain complete control and shut down any confrontation. But, I guess I get it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
One thing I've seen also, is that the tolerance levels among officials varies from sport to sport and from level to level.
I know baseball umpires that do other sports and as a general rule, they are the quickest to flag coaches/players and hand out technicals. There is just more of a zero tolerance policy in baseball it seems and those guys carry it over into their other sports. Whereas the basketball guys are a more lenient and the football officials let coaches have too much of a leash I believe. The NCAA literally has to tell the officials to give football coaches MORE unsportsmanlike penalties because we have been trained to almost never do it in football. Ever since the 2019 Alabama-Clemson national championship where Sweeney and Saban were constantly out of the field yelling at the officials, the directors/trainers have told us to be LESS tolerant of angry coaches out on the field to the point that it is supposed to be an automatic UNS if a coach is on the green part of the field yelling at the officials.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Then that's just a bad association. That is not AT ALL how our associations have trained us. Yes, you need to be in control. But it's always to be polite and courteous and respectful first, try to diffuse all situations and only exert control and authority when you must.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
NFHS has changed their policies regarding football coaches now to be more in line with other sports. It's "one voice" only allowed on the sideline, and in order to hammer that home and change the culture to be more reflective of other sports, they have told us to throw flags early and often to shut up assistant coaches that think they can constantly complain to officials.
I don't understand (especially at a football game where there is constant noise/yelling) why officials even bother to acknowledge people yelling at them. I can understand if they end up crossing a line/getting personal/using profanities to an extreme/etc but in general just bitching at the call is fine.
I have always thought officials that listen to the complaining (crowds/coaching/etc) too much takes away from them actually doing their job. I never paid attention to what the crowd was saying or what coaches were saying during the game unless we were in direct conversation. I had no problem with them yelling whatever as I didn't really pay attention. I had other things to worry about.
I guess due to the escalations and general bad reactions that are happening these days nipping it in the bud is likely the prudent thing to do. Things escalate too quickly these days to get out of control.
People not having the demeanor to be an official is totally true. Knowing how to diffuse someone is paramount for an official. Being able to not let your emotions kick in when the coaches/players emotions are high enough for everyone is also an important quality.
There really isn't a good answer other than people in general need to take a breath and realize we are all human trying to do the best we can.
Zow
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't like it but this thread (and the input from some of our board members who are actual officials) kind of has swayed me that a no tolerance policy may just be the most prudent.
I played a ton of youth sports, and I remember situations where it got really, really bad. I recall officials being brought to tears, dads getting tossed out of baseball games only to change clothes and come back in, and even one situation where a parent on the opposing team's soccer team followed the ref to his car (the ref was like 16 and fortunately his own dad had come to the game with him) and tried to fight the ref and the cops had to be called.
The gravity of the above was lost on me as a child, but looking back it was pretty toxic.
I completely agree. I coached in that organization for four years as my son was going through it and I never understood why the umps attitudes were so confrontational from the get go. After seeing how they ran their school it made perfect sense. I brought it up to them and tried to figure out why they were instilling this attitude and their answer was that it was the only way to keep control because coaches and fans were so out of control. We had a brief discussion where I tried to give the coaches side of the view and how it is being received but it was just glossed over and they moved on to the next section of the course. It was terrible and easy to see why our area had terrible officials.
brettdj
Footballguy
I have worked as an official for High School football for 20 years. I have been lucky to have not worked more that a couple of youth football games.
I have had a high school game where coaches threatened us while walking off the field WITH a police escort. That set of coaches lost their jobs the next week. The officials they were complaining about had been on ESPN the night before (R, U)
This situation has everyone on/in the field I have talked to upset. This just looked bad. It may have the correct outcome in the end but it looks bad. This video made it to my NCAA pregame this past Saturday.
I have had a high school game where coaches threatened us while walking off the field WITH a police escort. That set of coaches lost their jobs the next week. The officials they were complaining about had been on ESPN the night before (R, U)
This situation has everyone on/in the field I have talked to upset. This just looked bad. It may have the correct outcome in the end but it looks bad. This video made it to my NCAA pregame this past Saturday.
Dickies
Footballguy
Of course you've seen it before. Your avatar looks exactly like the ref.
Dickies
Footballguy
Our little league "requires" all of the managers to umpire at least one game during the season in an effort to help the managers see things from the umpire's perspective. In reality a lot of them manage to weasel out of the requirement, but the ones who actually follow through have told me it really does change how they manage their players, their stands and even the game.
I also do a lot of youth umping, and I know with 100% certainty that I get calls wrong. During the plate meeting I always reinforce this to the managers that we aren't perfect, but we try to get everything correct to the best of our ability. I also inform them that if they have a question about a call to calmly talk to the umpire that made the call and we will decide if it merits further discussion amongst ourselves. There are very few incidents that I've had to deal with outside of one manager who basically yells at umpires in every game I've watched. When he comes out heated over a call I honestly have no interest in reversing a decision that's made, even if it is incorrect. Maybe I'm in the wrong for taking this stance, but I view a big part of my job as umpire is to manage the atmosphere and sportsmanship of the game and I have zero patience for anyone not being respectful towards others.
Similar threads
