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***Official Pro Wrestling Thread*** (12 Viewers)

There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
 
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher".

I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.

 
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher".

I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.

I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...

 
One week until the Minneapolis house show. WWE is running two road shows at a time. We get cena, Orton, Rollins, Wyatt, and Rusev. No Reigns or Ambrose.

Kids are bummed to miss out on Reigns, but we have Usos and Miz/dow too, and tag team wrestling is their favorite.

 
travdogg said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher". I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think Ziggler is a guy who could really benefit from a finishing submission hold. Something he can lock on after he hits the Zig Zag.

 
Eminence said:
travdogg said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher". I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think Ziggler is a guy who could really benefit from a finishing submission hold. Something he can lock on after he hits the Zig Zag.
Click to expand...
While we're making changes, let's drop the stupid puns for finisher names.

 
GoFishTN said:
Eminence said:
travdogg said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher". I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think Ziggler is a guy who could really benefit from a finishing submission hold. Something he can lock on after he hits the Zig Zag.
Click to expand...
While we're making changes, let's drop the stupid puns for finisher names.
Click to expand...
Can't wait for the Finn Spinn, the Itami Tsunami, the Prince Pretty Pumphandle Powerslam, and the InZayn Kick.
 
Eminence said:
travdogg said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher". I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think Ziggler is a guy who could really benefit from a finishing submission hold. Something he can lock on after he hits the Zig Zag.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see Ambrose or Wyatt(somebody who is supposed to be crazy/unstable) bring back the crossface chicken wing. Ambrose could probably use it more.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
travdogg said:
Eminence said:
travdogg said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher". I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
I agree with almost all of this, except maybe the finishers thing. I actually think finishers are a little antiquated at this point. I think every wrestler should have 2-3 different ways they win matches, with everyone having at least 1 submission finisher and that certain opponents should be more vulnerable to different ones. I think that would make the drama of finishes FAR more interesting if we had more options than 1 finishing move, weapon or roll-up.I also wish submissions were treated a little better. I think at least 50% of matches should end that way, as they almost always look more impressive and painful than impact moves. But they've sort of fostered a fan response that anyone who ever taps out is a wuss so...
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think Ziggler is a guy who could really benefit from a finishing submission hold. Something he can lock on after he hits the Zig Zag.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see Ambrose or Wyatt(somebody who is supposed to be crazy/unstable) bring back the crossface chicken wing. Ambrose could probably use it more.
Click to expand...
:scared:

/signed the deranged mankind

 
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher".

I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
Eh, a lot of the indie guys know how to work a crowd. I've seen it firsthand. Some are better at it than others. If you can get them hitting spots, then learning the flow comes easier. Psychology can be taught. If you've got the moves and technique to tell a good in-ring story, you've won more than half the battle IMO.


 
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.

 
Tom Servo said:
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher".

I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
Eh, a lot of the indie guys know how to work a crowd. I've seen it firsthand. Some are better at it than others. If you can get them hitting spots, then learning the flow comes easier. Psychology can be taught. If you've got the moves and technique to tell a good in-ring story, you've won more than half the battle IMO.
Click to expand...
oh I agree, I'm just trying to cite the one value I do see in NXT though, some guys don't do that or may preemptively go to that high spot without some build.

I have to say, checking out wrestling podcasts, whats so interesting is the context of properly booking a card, and to not spoil finishers, meaning the curtain jurker shouldn't do 10 DDTs to no effect when Jake Roberts is working, as well as finishes, so you dont repeat the same one in a night if you can help it. But to that end, you also don't want to blow the crowd up with too many high spots early. It makes it harder for guys working up the card to get heat. So I know there was a tendency to do this to get noticed. But there is a progression that can make less mean more.

 
JB Breakfast Club said:
Bogart said:
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.
Click to expand...
Are you watching the Straight Shoot Retros after each Mania? They got though WM VI.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLReR2z_A9V95J8tyrOXw5u_sdqz2507Jq
Click to expand...
Dude, I am addicted to Straight Shoot Retro. I'm listening most of the time instead of watching, but loving them. I'm even listening to the Starcade ones.

I owe you bunches of beverages.

 
Bogart said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Bogart said:
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.
Click to expand...
Are you watching the Straight Shoot Retros after each Mania? They got though WM VI.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLReR2z_A9V95J8tyrOXw5u_sdqz2507Jq
Click to expand...
Dude, I am addicted to Straight Shoot Retro. I'm listening most of the time instead of watching, but loving them. I'm even listening to the Starcade ones.

I owe you bunches of beverages.
Click to expand...
summary for what these are?

 
Tiger Fan said:
Bogart said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Bogart said:
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.
Click to expand...
Are you watching the Straight Shoot Retros after each Mania? They got though WM VI.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLReR2z_A9V95J8tyrOXw5u_sdqz2507Jq
Click to expand...
Dude, I am addicted to Straight Shoot Retro. I'm listening most of the time instead of watching, but loving them. I'm even listening to the Starcade ones.

I owe you bunches of beverages.
Click to expand...
summary for what these are?
Click to expand...
Straight Shoot is a topical show that goes live after every RAW and PPV. It is hosted by Aubrey Sitterson, who used to work at WWE.com and Marvel Comics. His guests are typically wrestlers (e.g. Roddy Strong), comic editors, or wrestling columnists.

The Retro show was going through every historical PPV. It's Aubrey and his friend Jeff (aVanillaMidget/Toyspotting) doing a 90 minute show that gives historical background and brief discussions of each match. The two have really good chemistry, and it's fun to think back to the old events. Most matches are treated equally, so you get lots of Hogan, Flair, Savage, Steamboat...but also a lot about undercard guys like Buzz Sawyer, the Varsity Club, Bad News Brown, and Big Bossman. The show is currently on hold because of a lack of Youtube views and crowd funding support...but the stuff that's already out there is gold.

 
JB Breakfast Club said:
Tiger Fan said:
Bogart said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Bogart said:
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.
Click to expand...
Are you watching the Straight Shoot Retros after each Mania? They got though WM VI.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLReR2z_A9V95J8tyrOXw5u_sdqz2507Jq
Click to expand...
Dude, I am addicted to Straight Shoot Retro. I'm listening most of the time instead of watching, but loving them. I'm even listening to the Starcade ones.

I owe you bunches of beverages.
Click to expand...
summary for what these are?
Click to expand...
Straight Shoot is a topical show that goes live after every RAW and PPV. It is hosted by Aubrey Sitterson, who used to work at WWE.com and Marvel Comics. His guests are typically wrestlers (e.g. Roddy Strong), comic editors, or wrestling columnists.

The Retro show was going through every historical PPV. It's Aubrey and his friend Jeff (aVanillaMidget/Toyspotting) doing a 90 minute show that gives historical background and brief discussions of each match. The two have really good chemistry, and it's fun to think back to the old events. Most matches are treated equally, so you get lots of Hogan, Flair, Savage, Steamboat...but also a lot about undercard guys like Buzz Sawyer, the Varsity Club, Bad News Brown, and Big Bossman. The show is currently on hold because of a lack of Youtube views and crowd funding support...but the stuff that's already out there is gold.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm officially an old guy because I couldn't stand these two. I forget exactly which one I watched, but it was one of the early Starrcades. There was too much cursing (I know not everyone cares about that) and worse, it seemed like one of them didn't know half the guys or angles. A little research before filming is not a bad thing.

 
Smack Tripper said:
Tom Servo said:
There was this post in the comments section of Deadspin's article about Hugh G. Rection's mistreatment of prospects:

NXT is the best thing in WWE, undoubtedly - but they're so reliant on "outside talent" right now it's part hilarious, part sad. Which was the point I was trying to make - just because someone goes through NXT doesn't really make them a product of that system.

Seth Rollins was the Ring of Honor World Champion (as Tyler Black). Dean Ambrose was a star in CZW and Dragon Gate USA. Kevin Owens was a huge star (for the level, of course) in RoH and PWG, amongst others. Adrian Neville was a Dragon Gate regular for years. Hideo Itami was putting on five star matches in NOAH as KENTA. Finn Balor was probably one of the ten best guys in the world in New Japan before he went to NXT. Sami Zayn was El Generico, again a major guy all over the indies for years. Bayley was in SHINE and SHIMMER for about five years. Becky Lynch was an eleven year pro before NXT, Emma eight years. Of their very top of the card guys and gals, the closest they can come to fully claiming someone is Tyler Breeze, who was trained by Lance Storm; Sasha Banks, who did two years on the indies before NXT; and Charlotte, the daughter of Ric Flair.

Wyatt is a triumph they can claim if he can maintain importance - and that's a huge question, because look at how much his star dipped last year after his feud with John Cena. But who was their last developmental success before him and, well, I guess Reigns? They can't claim CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, both indie darlings for years and years pre-WWE. John Cena went through OVW, as did Randy Orton and Batista. That's a period of eleven years for the biggest wrestling company in the world that has a virtual monopoly in Canada & the USA to go without developing a single new star on their own - and that eleven isn't thirteen because I'm giving Wyatt and Reigns the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
they are annoying with their "style". Their "style" is built around finishers that don't get over, because they only drama they know how to infuse into a match is to have a guy kick out of a "finisher".

I'm a broken a record on this, but a guys "finisher" should FINISH people 99 percent of the time.

This outside talent has the background to roll with up and down crowds and to deal with them. Its the difference you see when Reigns looks befuddled when the crowd craps on him.

Indie guys can tend to be spot monkeys and they need to work with and know some flow. But nothing about the WWE style is appealing and its showing in every metric of business.
Click to expand...
This speaks to a broader point of everything in WWE being so tightly scripted - both in the ring and on the mic - that the product lacks any vitality.

Also, FWIW (and dragging up an old issue), I don't mind the finisher kick out... I like having guys with signature moves... I just don't want anyone's signature move being this all powerful device that ends matches. It should be a unique part of someone's move set... but that's all.

ETA: What Travdogg said above.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Tiger Fan said:
Bogart said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Bogart said:
Finished up WrestleMania IV and started in on V.

I had forgotten how much Piledriver The Album was EVERYWHERE WWF related.
Click to expand...
Are you watching the Straight Shoot Retros after each Mania? They got though WM VI.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLReR2z_A9V95J8tyrOXw5u_sdqz2507Jq
Click to expand...
Dude, I am addicted to Straight Shoot Retro. I'm listening most of the time instead of watching, but loving them. I'm even listening to the Starcade ones.

I owe you bunches of beverages.
Click to expand...
summary for what these are?
Click to expand...
Straight Shoot is a topical show that goes live after every RAW and PPV. It is hosted by Aubrey Sitterson, who used to work at WWE.com and Marvel Comics. His guests are typically wrestlers (e.g. Roddy Strong), comic editors, or wrestling columnists.

The Retro show was going through every historical PPV. It's Aubrey and his friend Jeff (aVanillaMidget/Toyspotting) doing a 90 minute show that gives historical background and brief discussions of each match. The two have really good chemistry, and it's fun to think back to the old events. Most matches are treated equally, so you get lots of Hogan, Flair, Savage, Steamboat...but also a lot about undercard guys like Buzz Sawyer, the Varsity Club, Bad News Brown, and Big Bossman. The show is currently on hold because of a lack of Youtube views and crowd funding support...but the stuff that's already out there is gold.
Click to expand...
I really like the in depth background they gave before discussing each match, but all of the swearing sounds very amateurish and gratuitous. It's like listening to two 12 year old boys cussing only because there are no adults around. I've noticed that the regular Straight Shoot podcasts are much cleaner, while still as insightful. I'd like to think the cleaned up language would also help to bring in more sponsors.

ETA: GoFishTN beat me to it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
"Brock Lesnar will unify the UFC & WWE title if he chooses to this summer." The best thing about Pacman/Mayweather is that Brock Lesnar has 10lbs on both of them."

 
Orton Rollins might be the best match of the night. And I don't like Orton.

ETA, night referencing Wrestlemania.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
These announcers.... My god... Every last one or them. Absolutely no pop or excitement to the Orton face turn.

Hey cole, heels "snap", faces "see the light"

And what is with this weird pop less masochism by Orton turning face. Isn't the point that we see Orton whip his butt at wrestlemania? I guess Rollins is going over.

This company sucks

 
Smack Tripper said:
can't even get Steve Borden to do the Sting voice??
Click to expand...
I know right, absolutely sad, and that is coming from someone who has no interest whatsoever in Sting.

Smack Tripper said:
These announcers.... My god... Every last one or them. Absolutely no pop or excitement to the Orton face turn.

Hey cole, heels "snap", faces "see the light"

And what is with this weird pop less masochism by Orton turning face. Isn't the point that we see Orton whip his butt at wrestlemania? I guess Rollins is going over.

This company sucks
Click to expand...
What really gets me is Cole just boringly listing the things Bray Wyatt says, in a monotone voice, like he was reading his grocery list. Totally takes me out of the show, despite Wyatt doing some excellent work carrying a feud by himself every week.

 
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions losing constantly

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.

 
JB Breakfast Club said:
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions lo

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.

Tom Servo said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
Tony Jabroni said:
Orton....killing it.
Click to expand...
Too much swearing. Dislike.
Click to expand...
That segment sounded like it was written by a 12 year old dyslexic writing with his opposite hand. That was awful.
Click to expand...
:lol: It did seem a bit forced. Apologies to all above for the swear words.
Click to expand...
 
I didn't mind the show. Concur that the swearing did seem forced and un-necessary. If they're going to go back to the attitude era, just do it; don't half-butt it

 
What swearing did I miss?

I hear Orton say "f'ing" or "flipping" (as in not cursing but saying curses code) which in a fit of "rage" was asnine to me.

One of the best moments in that show is when Bret hart cursed. Not because he cursed but because you said "wow is this real "

 
JB Breakfast Club said:
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions losing constantly

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.
Click to expand...
Totally... really dilutes everything... The Matadors get on TV once a month, how many PPV's do they do a year, and they have to be on wrestlemania?

If they relegate the Dust brothers to the pre show I"m gonna be pissed, those guys have earned that match at wrestlemania. And to do it so these jabronis can say they worked mania?

 
Smack Tripper said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions losing constantly

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.
Click to expand...
Totally... really dilutes everything... The Matadors get on TV once a month, how many PPV's do they do a year, and they have to be on wrestlemania?

If they relegate the Dust brothers to the pre show I"m gonna be pissed, those guys have earned that match at wrestlemania. And to do it so these jabronis can say they worked mania?
Click to expand...
The Matadors check a box, if you know what I mean. (See also R-Truth)

 
OC Zed said:
Smack Tripper said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions losing constantly

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.
Click to expand...
Totally... really dilutes everything... The Matadors get on TV once a month, how many PPV's do they do a year, and they have to be on wrestlemania?

If they relegate the Dust brothers to the pre show I"m gonna be pissed, those guys have earned that match at wrestlemania. And to do it so these jabronis can say they worked mania?
Click to expand...
The Matadors check a box, if you know what I mean. (See also R-Truth)
Click to expand...
Ironically the Bellas are Latina but they never push that angle.

Only if you are some sterotypical goof can you represent a race. Who was the last guy over independnet a racial gimmick? The Rock, who really go OVER in the Nation in the first place

 
Smack Tripper said:
What swearing did I miss?

I hear Orton say "f'ing" or "flipping" (as in not cursing but saying curses code) which in a fit of "rage" was asnine to me.

One of the best moments in that show is when Bret hart cursed. Not because he cursed but because you said "wow is this real "
Click to expand...
I don't really feel like re-watching it to count, but he dropped at least a dozen aces and capped it with an itch. It's just unnecessary and probably a lazy crutch.

Refer back to this post-shield Ambrose promo. It's dark and violent and menacing, but it's also clean. http://youtu.be/SkXpJm5UMDE

 
JB Breakfast Club said:
Smack Tripper said:
What swearing did I miss?

I hear Orton say "f'ing" or "flipping" (as in not cursing but saying curses code) which in a fit of "rage" was asnine to me.

One of the best moments in that show is when Bret hart cursed. Not because he cursed but because you said "wow is this real "
Click to expand...
I don't really feel like re-watching it to count, but he dropped at least a dozen aces and capped it with an itch. It's just unnecessary and probably a lazy crutch.

Refer back to this post-shield Ambrose promo. It's dark and violent and menacing, but it's also clean. http://youtu.be/SkXpJm5UMDE
Click to expand...
Oh he said itch in the begining, thats where we are talking about? I'm desensitized to that sadly.

 
Smack Tripper said:
OC Zed said:
Smack Tripper said:
JB Breakfast Club said:
I'm normally pretty forgiving of the WWE...but this show really missed the mark to me.

- I'm tired of champions losing constantly

- I'm tired of the idea that EVERYONE needs to be on Mania (looks like a multi-team tag match)

- I'm tired of the faces swearing and acting like heels during the first hour

Orton really pushed the envelope of TV-PG tonight. If WWE wants to return to more Attitude era stuff, that's fine...but don't label your show TV-PG and family friendly. I'm very close to pulling the plug on letting my kids (6 and 8) watch RAW. I really don't want to comb through RAW and filter it for them the next night, so they might have to down-shift to Main Event and NXT since those are clean shows.

I really hope Mania comes together, but I'm feeling the doubt.
Click to expand...
Totally... really dilutes everything... The Matadors get on TV once a month, how many PPV's do they do a year, and they have to be on wrestlemania?

If they relegate the Dust brothers to the pre show I"m gonna be pissed, those guys have earned that match at wrestlemania. And to do it so these jabronis can say they worked mania?
Click to expand...
The Matadors check a box, if you know what I mean. (See also R-Truth)
Click to expand...
Ironically the Bellas are Latina but they never push that angle.

Only if you are some sterotypical goof can you represent a race. Who was the last guy over independnet a racial gimmick? The Rock, who really go OVER in the Nation in the first place
Click to expand...
AJ Lee and Seth Rollins are Latina/Latino as well, though they have names/identities that don't show that. (AJ Lee is really AJ Mendes; at least that's her maiden name, but 1) They wouldn't want her paired with Rosa Mendes and 2) They can't copywright a real name. Seth Rollins' real name is Colby Lopez.)

But the Bellas are names that fit with a Latina identity. I kind of like that it resurfaces every now and then (like when they courted Alberto Del Rio in Spanish when he was WWE Champ) but isn't always thrust in the fans' faces. Not all nonwhites have to be a 24/7 stereotype.

 
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