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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (5 Viewers)

Thanks for the salary inputs. Sounds like I'm both generating appropriate business and being paid appropriately.
...or the traditional expectations of associates have been too high and associates have been underpaid.
I should also probably point out that about 2/3 my caseload and half my fees generated come from indigent representation (which we bill at like 1/4 what we make on a private case). So I'm probably working way more to earn my money (though, to be fair, my experience and working relationships with the city prosecutors permit me to crush a misdemeanor indigent defense caseload substantially faster per case than any privately retained similar case).

ETA: In conclusion, I'm still not entirely certain what this means. Additionally, I'm paid way more than the current market value for a 5 year lawyer with predominantly indigent defense experience. So I probably lack any leverage anyway and I have a great relationship with the partners.

 
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I was asked yesterday if I wanted to try to figure out a way to make money from marijuana law, since Washington just issued its first licenses.

:mellow:

 
I'd just like to do a PSA - if a contractor knocks on your door and tells you he/she can do a bunch of free work for you under a government funded program and all you have to do is sign on the dotted line, just close the door and go back to what you were doing.

 
I'd just like to do a PSA - if a contractor knocks on your door and tells you he/she can do a bunch of free work for you under a government funded program and all you have to do is sign on the dotted line, just close the door and go back to what you were doing.
"Sure! But only if I can take your picture and get your thumb print!"

 
I'd just like to do a PSA - if a contractor knocks on your door and tells you he/she can do a bunch of free work for you under a government funded program and all you have to do is sign on the dotted line, just close the door and go back to what you were doing.
"Sure! But only if I can take your picture and get your thumb print!"
The worst part is, it's not even a real "scam" per se - just this horrible government program put into place after Katrina. Bunch of fly-by-night companies got into a business they should not have gotten into.

 
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-fish- said:
I was asked yesterday if I wanted to try to figure out a way to make money from marijuana law, since Washington just issued its first licenses.

:mellow:
I'd rather they pay in trade.
I don't really imbibe anymore, but one concern I have is how profitable legal marijuana will really be. From what I've heard, it's crazy cheap right now. I guess a lot of people will buy the state sanctioned, heavily taxed stuff for convenience, but I haven't smoked in almost 20 years and I can still get hooked up in a phone call. Hell, there are places on craigslist delivering it by bike messenger in Seattle.

 
-fish- said:
I was asked yesterday if I wanted to try to figure out a way to make money from marijuana law, since Washington just issued its first licenses.

:mellow:
I'd rather they pay in trade.
I don't really imbibe anymore, but one concern I have is how profitable legal marijuana will really be. From what I've heard, it's crazy cheap right now. I guess a lot of people will buy the state sanctioned, heavily taxed stuff for convenience, but I haven't smoked in almost 20 years and I can still get hooked up in a phone call. Hell, there are places on craigslist delivering it by bike messenger in Seattle.
I don't really partake at all. I did raise some eyebrows at my old firm when I came back from a medical leave and joked that I had researched whether I'd be covered by DC's medical MJ law. So that's another possible reason I'm no longer with that firm. I'm not always the most politic guy.

 
-fish- said:
I was asked yesterday if I wanted to try to figure out a way to make money from marijuana law, since Washington just issued its first licenses.

:mellow:
In case you're actually planning on doing this - non-shtick answer "Not a chance in hell."

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Ah.I have little insight into that. Alternative billing arrangements give me hives.

 
Ah, ok. I get it now. Eh, lawyers have done worse. Not my bag baby.

On a lighter note, the accounting is done. Boom goes the dynomite or something like that. Need to get that divorce brief done but now I have a labor complaint with the state to deal with with an exempt employee who is claiming some nonsense that the labor department has no jurisdiction to hear. I am going back and forth between writing a letter telling the referee that we don't recognize them at all but will appear to be courteous or just doing the full trial brief and trying to kill this thing before it starts (which won't happen) anyway.

Oh, and Obamacare has reared it's ugly head in my practice. Awhile back I had a tax court question. Turns out the whole reason my client is under the gun now was because of paperwork requirements from the new ACA regs. Nice. That should be fun.

I really wish I could spealize in one thing and just do that one thing - whatever it is. This general stuff all over the place on a daily basis gets tiring. One of these days I'm going to show up for a breach of contract motion hearing and spout divorce law as my argument.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.
What if a dispensary were also selling under the table to serve the out of state market? So the DEA investigates. And as a partner in the enterprise, suddenly they're looking at the lawyers as members of a criminal conspiracy. RICO ain't no fun to defend against. Prosecutors can make it nearly impossible to operate a business in those circumstances. They'll use the Bank Secrecy Act regulations to essentially intimidate every bank into closing any account you open.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.
What if a dispensary were also selling under the table to serve the out of state market? So the DEA investigates. And as a partner in the enterprise, suddenly they're looking at the lawyers as members of a criminal conspiracy. RICO ain't no fun to defend against. Prosecutors can make it nearly impossible to operate a business in those circumstances. They'll use the Bank Secrecy Act regulations to essentially intimidate every bank into closing any account you open.
What if it weren't? What if they made plenty of money legally and were in no way into going to federal prison? I mean the assumption that everyone is up to something is probably a really good lawyer and cop skill. But it doesn't always really reflect the reality of every situation.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.
What if a dispensary were also selling under the table to serve the out of state market? So the DEA investigates. And as a partner in the enterprise, suddenly they're looking at the lawyers as members of a criminal conspiracy. RICO ain't no fun to defend against. Prosecutors can make it nearly impossible to operate a business in those circumstances. They'll use the Bank Secrecy Act regulations to essentially intimidate every bank into closing any account you open.
What if it weren't? What if they made plenty of money legally and were in no way into going to federal prison? I mean the assumption that everyone is up to something is probably a really good lawyer and cop skill. But it doesn't always really reflect the reality of every situation.
Lawyers are generally held to higher standards on those types of issues. Giving lawyers' stakes in their clients' businesses is always considered problematic. Because suddenly the lawyers aren't just motivated to give impartial legal advice.

That means that its not the most entrepreneurial profession, but I think that's probably a good thing.

The dispensaries are problematic precisely because no matter how diligent and honest their operators are, they are still violating federal law. And relying on the DOJ to not focus on them carries a degree of risk.

 
What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place.

He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.
What if a dispensary were also selling under the table to serve the out of state market? So the DEA investigates. And as a partner in the enterprise, suddenly they're looking at the lawyers as members of a criminal conspiracy. RICO ain't no fun to defend against. Prosecutors can make it nearly impossible to operate a business in those circumstances. They'll use the Bank Secrecy Act regulations to essentially intimidate every bank into closing any account you open.
What if it weren't? What if they made plenty of money legally and were in no way into going to federal prison? I mean the assumption that everyone is up to something is probably a really good lawyer and cop skill. But it doesn't always really reflect the reality of every situation.
I don't get the impression that fish has the level of knowledge of or supervision over these people to rule out something like that.

You do have to admit that offering a landlord of your business storage a cut of your profits is odd, and 20% seems like a lot to me. At a minimum, it suggests they're under-capitalized, and at worst it sounds a bit like them trying to skirt some regulations or at least some disclosures to landlords. It just doesn't feel right to me, and I'm one to trust my instincts on stuff like this.

 
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What's wrong with maryjane law?
Nothing is wrong with maryjane law. He's discussing brokering a deal involving a maryjane company, or perhaps getting into actual business with the company.
You seem to be reading something into his post that I don't see. I read it as nothing more than "hey, want to do some client development in an emerging industry?"
It's not in his post in this thread. It's in another place. He's looking for a building, as some company has offered a percentage of profits in exchange for a place to grow.
Still not seeing the problem.
It's illegal under federal law, and the rules of professional conduct prohibit aiding crimes.
 
Whether or not he gets in trouble with the law, his intentionally aiding in the commission of a federal felony can cost him his license to practice law.

 
washington and colorado are past the dispensary phase. we have licensed, state sanctioned (and in some cases state-owned) retail stores opening in the next couple months. colorado's have been open for what, six months?

I respect Henry, but the idea that providing counsel to these legal enterprises is somehow going to get me disbarred based on counseling them to break federal law is pretty absurd.

there are millions of dollars in play...you think nobody can hire lawyers to advise them? You think no lawyers are going to get a piece of the action from legal startups?

that's just naive

I imagine that the colorado and washington state bars both have ethical opinions available already. legalization has already happened. it's just going to become more widespread.

 
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washington and colorado are past the dispensary phase. we have licensed, state sanctioned (and in some cases state-owned) retail stores opening in the next couple months. colorado's have been open for what, six months?

I respect Henry, but the idea that providing counsel to these legal enterprises is somehow going to get me disbarred based on counseling them to break federal law is pretty absurd.

there are millions of dollars in play...you think nobody can hire lawyers to advise them? You think no lawyers are going to get a piece of the action from legal startups?

that's just naive

I imagine that the colorado and washington state bars both have ethical opinions available already. legalization has already happened. it's just going to become more widespread.
Providing counsel is fine. I would just make sure you are not doing more than that unless/until you're absolutely sure that you're not jeopardizing your freedom or your career. At a minimum, if you wish do do more for/with these guys than acting strictly as their counsel, I'd go get an ethics opinion from your state bar.

 
Supreme Court to decide if lawyers can advise marijuana clients

Posted by Jonathan Martin


marijuana-300x199.jpg
The troublesome weed.

MIKE SIEGEL / THE SEATTLE TIMES
In an editorial today, the Seattle Times urged restraint for people making assumptions about last year’s landmark marijuana legalization law. One group making no assumptions: lawyers.

The passage of Initiative 502 opened interesting ethics questions for lawyers, especially those serving the new marijuana industry. Can an attorney avoid discipline if they advise a client about breaking federal law? What about one with an ownership stake in a marijuana business? For that matter, can a lawyer personally light it up?

In an advisory opinion in October, the trustees at King County Bar Association, which has been on the forefront of drug reform for a decade, essentially said yes to all three. That’s important, because lawyers take an oath to uphold state and federal law. And ethics violations can cost a lawyer their license.

But, since we’re talking about a bunch of lawyers, the 14,000-member KCBA wanted the issue crystal clear, so they asked the state Supreme Court to amend the Rules of Professional Conduct.

The court quickly took up the challenge and asked for advice from the Washington State Bar Association, which handles discipline (disclosure: my wife is a WSBA disciplinary counsel).

The short answer from the chief disciplinary counsel, Doug Ende: it’s still illegal , but the bar has no intention of pursuing it. As proof, Ende notes a lack of discipline against lawyers who’ve advised medical marijuana dispensaries (which aren’t clearly legal even under state law).

The Office of Disciplinary Counsel has not disciplined and does not intend to discipline lawyers who in good faith advise or assist clients or personally engage in conduct that is in strict compliance with I-502 and its implementing regulations.
That should settle it, right? Nope. The KCBA cited Connecticut and Maine ethics opinions concluding that lawyers couldn’t advise clients how to break the federal Controlled Substances Act. Ende’s letter suggests attorneys could be subject to discipline for getting involved in I-502, but the bar will “look the other way,” wrote KCBA president Anne Daly. Here’s a link to the whole back-and-forth via the KCBA site.

The Supreme Court is on a fast-track to consider the issue, asking for formal comments from the WSBA in January. The stake is big: if the Supreme Court decides federal law trumps I-502, the lawyers advising the booming marijuana industry may suddenly be operating in jeopardy- however remote, as Ende suggests – of losing their licenses.

Washington isn’t alone. The bar association in Colorado, our sister in the legalization experiment, is also wrestling with this. Its recommendation to the Colorado Supreme Court is to “insulate” attorneys from discipline for marijuana-related advice and use.


 
guaranteed our state supreme court amends our rules of professional conduct to protect attorneys. this state has seen the light as to the amount of revenues that can be generated. we're a very business-friendly state, and from the AG down they've wanted legalization for a decade.

 
washington and colorado are past the dispensary phase. we have licensed, state sanctioned (and in some cases state-owned) retail stores opening in the next couple months. colorado's have been open for what, six months?

I respect Henry, but the idea that providing counsel to these legal enterprises is somehow going to get me disbarred based on counseling them to break federal law is pretty absurd.

there are millions of dollars in play...you think nobody can hire lawyers to advise them? You think no lawyers are going to get a piece of the action from legal startups?

that's just naive

I imagine that the colorado and washington state bars both have ethical opinions available already. legalization has already happened. it's just going to become more widespread.
I don't think that's what raises my flag. Of course you can offer legal advice. And you can charge for offering legal advice. And if they somehow run afoul of the law, you can say, "hey, I was just providing legal advice." You can offer illegal drug dealers legal advice (so long as you're not counseling them to break the law).

But when you accept a piece of the action from any business in the form of a profit sharing agreement, you lose that last bit of protection. You're no longer just the guy charging them for legal advice. You're a member of the enterprise. That's the concern.

 
washington and colorado are past the dispensary phase. we have licensed, state sanctioned (and in some cases state-owned) retail stores opening in the next couple months. colorado's have been open for what, six months?

I respect Henry, but the idea that providing counsel to these legal enterprises is somehow going to get me disbarred based on counseling them to break federal law is pretty absurd.

there are millions of dollars in play...you think nobody can hire lawyers to advise them? You think no lawyers are going to get a piece of the action from legal startups?

that's just naive

I imagine that the colorado and washington state bars both have ethical opinions available already. legalization has already happened. it's just going to become more widespread.
Counseling and brokering deals or going into business with them in a joint enterprise are very different things.

 
Semi-related (but much, much worse) lawyer story... One of my old law school classmates was busted not too long ago, apparently advising, funding, and taking an interest in a "ring" involving a drug a bit more clearly illegal (but I don't want to give too many specifics). He was in a fantasy football league that I commished, going back to law school. He had not registered his team, the draft was a couple of days away, and he was not responding to e-mails. I decided to google him to try to find a web bio/work e-mail for him to give him a last chance, and found all the news articles about it. Forwarded the link to a couple of people in the league with a "um, I think we need to find a replacement owner" note. I'm not sure if I've ever been responsible for a story spreading as quickly as that did.

 
Won trial. Got judgment against Defendant. Defendant doesn't like the fact that he lost so he files a motion to reconsider. Ok, you have that ability although you aren't going to win. File response. Appear at the hearing in the courtroom required by the notice and in front of the judge required by the notice. Ready and willing to go on the hearing. Defendant who filed the motion does not show up. Request for default is made. It is denied. Because the judge that was assigned to hear the motion was not the judge who tried the case and therefore the motion judge wanted the other judge to deal with it - and that judge wasn't in today.

But the defendant didn't show up so I should get a default no matter whether that judge is here or not. No, counsel, that judge has to make the call and he isn't here. But the moving party didn't show up to a hearing and the rules say that default enters and there is no mention of anything related to the judge hearing the motion not wanting to and sending it to someone else that isn't in today to deal with it. Sorry counsel, no default. We will reschedule.

:wall:

 
Because the judge that was assigned to hear the motion was not the judge who tried the case and therefore the motion judge wanted the other judge to deal with it - and that judge wasn't in today.
If the other attorney had showed up, was this judge still going to punt, or was he going to hold the hearing? It'd be pretty weird if he was prepared to entertain argument and make a ruling, but was not willing to enter a default. I mean, it's weird that he wouldn't enter a default either way, but even weirder if he was prepared to hold the hearing.

 
Won trial. Got judgment against Defendant. Defendant doesn't like the fact that he lost so he files a motion to reconsider. Ok, you have that ability although you aren't going to win. File response. Appear at the hearing in the courtroom required by the notice and in front of the judge required by the notice. Ready and willing to go on the hearing. Defendant who filed the motion does not show up. Request for default is made. It is denied. Because the judge that was assigned to hear the motion was not the judge who tried the case and therefore the motion judge wanted the other judge to deal with it - and that judge wasn't in today.

But the defendant didn't show up so I should get a default no matter whether that judge is here or not. No, counsel, that judge has to make the call and he isn't here. But the moving party didn't show up to a hearing and the rules say that default enters and there is no mention of anything related to the judge hearing the motion not wanting to and sending it to someone else that isn't in today to deal with it. Sorry counsel, no default. We will reschedule.

:wall:
Meanwhile, defendant is clearing out accounts...

 
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113318&p=16724589

I guess this thread is for venting about legal discussion. I'll just put this here.
I have no idea what that guy's point was and I read his posts like 8 times.
"I went to law school and I can use this language however I want to."
Even apart from misusing a couple of words, I don't know what he was getting at.

To be fair, I never passed the NY bar or graduated from a top fifty.

 
Because the judge that was assigned to hear the motion was not the judge who tried the case and therefore the motion judge wanted the other judge to deal with it - and that judge wasn't in today.
If the other attorney had showed up, was this judge still going to punt, or was he going to hold the hearing? It'd be pretty weird if he was prepared to entertain argument and make a ruling, but was not willing to enter a default. I mean, it's weird that he wouldn't enter a default either way, but even weirder if he was prepared to hold the hearing.
I don't know. What pisses me off more than anything else is the motion judge is a judge I am in front of all the time and I actually do mediation for this judge. Without being on a committee.

This was just calendar moving without regard to the litigants because the administrative office of the courts probably yelled at him for something recently and he's trying to make his schedule look better. Whatever.

 
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113318&p=16724589

I guess this thread is for venting about legal discussion. I'll just put this here.
I have no idea what that guy's point was and I read his posts like 8 times.
"I went to law school and I can use this language however I want to."
Even apart from misusing a couple of words, I don't know what he was getting at.

To be fair, I never passed the NY bar or graduated from a top fifty.
He's just trying to say that the Supreme Court has usurped state's rights and actively made federal law they had no business making based on his interpretation of the Constitution, which is the correct one (in his head, obviously.) He had to go all "yea, the speckled she-bear" on us, though, and it didn't work out so well.

 
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113318&p=16724589

I guess this thread is for venting about legal discussion. I'll just put this here.
I have no idea what that guy's point was and I read his posts like 8 times.
"I went to law school and I can use this language however I want to."
Even apart from misusing a couple of words, I don't know what he was getting at.

To be fair, I never passed the NY bar or graduated from a top fifty.
He's just trying to say that the Supreme Court has usurped state's rights and actively made federal law they had no business making based on his interpretation of the Constitution, which is the correct one (in his head, obviously.) He had to go all "yea, the speckled she-bear" on us, though, and it didn't work out so well.
Now you're just making things up.

 
ok

since none of you are South African lawyers i do not know if anyone knows the answer to this, BUT I'll ask anyway

it is correct, o believe, that in our country Oscar Pistorius could not have been made to take the stand.

Was he obligated to over there? does anyone know? By all accounts he kind of got torn apart and did himself no favors up there. I was just wondering if he had to testify or if (as over here) he could have chosen not to.

as a secondary question, what is the rationale behind allowing someone to not incriminate themselves? It seems to me hearing from the defendant in a criminal case is a pretty important thing.

 
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http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113318&p=16724589

I guess this thread is for venting about legal discussion. I'll just put this here.
I have no idea what that guy's point was and I read his posts like 8 times.
"I went to law school and I can use this language however I want to."
Even apart from misusing a couple of words, I don't know what he was getting at.

To be fair, I never passed the NY bar or graduated from a top fifty.
He's just trying to say that the Supreme Court has usurped state's rights and actively made federal law they had no business making based on his interpretation of the Constitution, which is the correct one (in his head, obviously.) He had to go all "yea, the speckled she-bear" on us, though, and it didn't work out so well.
Now you're just making things up.
It's my favorite opinion ever. Ever. You haven't read it? It's about a cab driver who jumps out of his cab during an emergency, and it severely injures someone - maybe kills. *Nope- looked it up, slight injuries.

Okay, I completely screwed up the language.

Cordas v. Peerless Transportation Co. 27 NYS2d 198.

There are those who stem the turbulent current for bubble fame, or who bridge the yawning chasm with a leap for the leap's sake, or who "outstare the sternest eyes that look, outbrave the heart most daring on the earth, pluck the young sucking cubs from the she-bear, yea, mock the lion when he roars for prey" to win a fair lady, and these are the admiration of the generality of men; but they are made of sterner stuff than the ordinary many upon whom the law places no duty of emulation.

Translation - the reasonable man is a #####. Case dismissed.

 
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http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113318&p=16724589

I guess this thread is for venting about legal discussion. I'll just put this here.
I have no idea what that guy's point was and I read his posts like 8 times.
"I went to law school and I can use this language however I want to."
Even apart from misusing a couple of words, I don't know what he was getting at.

To be fair, I never passed the NY bar or graduated from a top fifty.
He's just trying to say that the Supreme Court has usurped state's rights and actively made federal law they had no business making based on his interpretation of the Constitution, which is the correct one (in his head, obviously.) He had to go all "yea, the speckled she-bear" on us, though, and it didn't work out so well.
No, that's not at all what I'm trying to say. Disagree as you will with what "codify" means, but this is the most condescending thing I've ever read. I think you pay great attention to detail, Henry. And you sort of edited your post and then...Dude, do what you want. This is sort of nasty.

 

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