The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (3 Viewers)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

The motion is unsupported by the facts or the law, and clearly misstates and misquotes the applicable statute in an attempt to argue this untenable position.Don't get flowery with your language. Hit them with a brick.

I changed my mind:

"Defendant has mis-quoted the statute. Counsel's brief states the following:

That is not the law. The actual text of the statute reads:

As a result, defendant's argument has no bearing on the statute this Court must consider and should be disregarded." is flawed. The correct interpretation is...

IMO

That's fair, too, but but I hate leading into block quotes with tiny sentences. Personal stylistic issue.

Did you ever answer whether you were filing a Rule 68 OJ or one under your state's law?

I think block quotes should be introduced by saying why they're worth reading. My version would go something like...

The Children's brief quotes the statute in edited form, presumably for the sake of brevity, but the edits may unintentionally mislead. The Children's edited version reads: [blah blah].

The unedited version, however, does not refer specifically to parents, and in any case requires a hearing: [blah blah blah].

Oh, sorry - maybe I misread Zow - I thought they just changed the wording.

One paraphrase comes dangerously close to being misleading, IMO. The rest of the edits appear to be for brevity, but I don't know if the pleading is asking for the judge to rule on the papers.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Does anyone else notice how frequently commas are overused in legal writing? I feel like I take out at least a dozen commas every time I proof a brief. I think many lawyers just throw a comma in by default whenever they are uncertain of whether one should be there or not.

I'll use less commas if you like. But you can have my em-dashes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

 

[T Bell]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

Really? I see a lot of political science majors.

 

[Henry Ford]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

Really? I see a lot of political science majors.

I see a bunch of defense attorneys who were poli sci, don't think I know any plaintiff's attorneys.

 

[T Bell]

I'm not a particularly great legal writer. I was an English/Mass Comm major in college, but then spent a decade doing IT before law school. For that time, I never wrote anything more formal than an email or a message board post. My skill really atrophied.

I'm good at analysis. I'm good at seeing the big picture. I have a knack for a memorable turn or phrase or two. I'm not as good as being as precise as I should be. My wife and I together make something like the perfect lawyer. I'm fast and get the analysis and organization 90% done in a fraction of the time other associates can. My wife is very careful and precise and the go-to person for the final "polish" in her firm's Washington office.

So you're saying that your wife is good at polishing the things in your briefs?

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm not a particularly great legal writer. I was an English/Mass Comm major in college, but then spent a decade doing IT before law school. For that time, I never wrote anything more formal than an email or a message board post. My skill really atrophied.

I'm good at analysis. I'm good at seeing the big picture. I have a knack for a memorable turn or phrase or two. I'm not as good as being as precise as I should be. My wife and I together make something like the perfect lawyer. I'm fast and get the analysis and organization 90% done in a fraction of the time other associates can. My wife is very careful and precise and the go-to person for the final "polish" in her firm's Washington office.

So you're saying that your wife is good at polishing the things in your briefs?

And he takes pride in finishing much faster than most.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I'm not a particularly great legal writer. I was an English/Mass Comm major in college, but then spent a decade doing IT before law school. For that time, I never wrote anything more formal than an email or a message board post. My skill really atrophied.

I'm good at analysis. I'm good at seeing the big picture. I have a knack for a memorable turn or phrase or two. I'm not as good as being as precise as I should be. My wife and I together make something like the perfect lawyer. I'm fast and get the analysis and organization 90% done in a fraction of the time other associates can. My wife is very careful and precise and the go-to person for the final "polish" in her firm's Washington office.

So you're saying that your wife is good at polishing the things in your briefs?

When she deigns to do so, yes.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I'm not a particularly great legal writer. I was an English/Mass Comm major in college, but then spent a decade doing IT before law school. For that time, I never wrote anything more formal than an email or a message board post. My skill really atrophied.

I'm good at analysis. I'm good at seeing the big picture. I have a knack for a memorable turn or phrase or two. I'm not as good as being as precise as I should be. My wife and I together make something like the perfect lawyer. I'm fast and get the analysis and organization 90% done in a fraction of the time other associates can. My wife is very careful and precise and the go-to person for the final "polish" in her firm's Washington office.

So you're saying that your wife is good at polishing the things in your briefs?

And he takes pride in finishing much faster than most.

If you can't be good, at least get it over with quickly.

 

[T Bell]

I'm not a particularly great legal writer. I was an English/Mass Comm major in college, but then spent a decade doing IT before law school. For that time, I never wrote anything more formal than an email or a message board post. My skill really atrophied.

I'm good at analysis. I'm good at seeing the big picture. I have a knack for a memorable turn or phrase or two. I'm not as good as being as precise as I should be. My wife and I together make something like the perfect lawyer. I'm fast and get the analysis and organization 90% done in a fraction of the time other associates can. My wife is very careful and precise and the go-to person for the final "polish" in her firm's Washington office.

So you're saying that your wife is good at polishing the things in your briefs?

And he takes pride in finishing much faster than most.

If you can't be good, at least get it over with quickly.

Yeah, unfortunately unskilled "polishing" seems to work inversely to that.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

I was one of about twenty theology majors in my graduating college class. Two or three people went on to get more advanced degrees in that subject with an eye toward teaching. I think all the rest of us went to law school.

 

[krista4]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

Really? I see a lot of political science majors.

Poli Sci and History here.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Has anyone tried Wordrake? (http://www.wordrake.com/) Its a propretary MSWord add-on. I tried the 3 day trial a while back and would say it improved my writing along the lines discussed above, although it also made a few non-sensical suggested edits. Does a good job of addressing my weaknesses for "generally" "clearly" "certainly" and similar useless words.

This looks interesting. I may give it a try.

 

[T Bell]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

Really? I see a lot of political science majors.

Poli Sci and History here.

Yeah, my experience out in CA at least is that the most common undergrad majors for my fellow litigators were (roughly in order):

Poli Sci/English

History/Business Admin

Philosophy/Econ/Psych

Hard Science/Other

 

[commisholio]

I need some advice. I have a business idea. It involves design, construction and selling directly to consumers. Part of the idea is a process for completing the design and construction that I believe may be a first (potential for IP). I would like to know if there are any patents in the field, and if so, what they specifically are for. I'm not at a stage to hire a patent attorney though. I'm still working on the process myself.

Is this something I could research well enough on my own?

Spend some time with google patent search - https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts

Search for as many keywords as you can think of that relate to your device. Be aware that if you can't find anything, it doesn't mean there isn't a relevant patent or published application out there, it just means you can't find it. If you find it, well, you saved yourself the cost of a search.

 

[Buckfast 1]

Does anyone else notice how frequently commas are overused in legal writing? I feel like I take out at least a dozen commas every time I proof a brief. I think many lawyers just throw a comma in by default whenever they are uncertain of whether one should be there or not.

I'll use less commas if you like. But you can have my em-dashes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I actually hate em-dashes too, but only because I find n-dashes more aesthetically pleasing. I actually often improperly use n-dashes in place of em-dashes. I'm trying to change the grammar game on that one.

 

[commisholio]

My non-law degrees are in Biochemistry/Molecular Biology.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Does anyone else notice how frequently commas are overused in legal writing? I feel like I take out at least a dozen commas every time I proof a brief. I think many lawyers just throw a comma in by default whenever they are uncertain of whether one should be there or not.

I'll use less commas if you like. But you can have my em-dashes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I actually hate em-dashes too, but only because I find n-dashes more aesthetically pleasing. I actually often improperly use n-dashes in place of em-dashes. I'm trying to change the grammar game on that one.

You misunderstand. I love em-dashes. Can't get enough of them. It's a silly affectation because 8 out of 10 partners remove them, but I can't quit them.

 

[Thorn]

Love em dashes.

 

[Buckfast 1]

Does anyone else notice how frequently commas are overused in legal writing? I feel like I take out at least a dozen commas every time I proof a brief. I think many lawyers just throw a comma in by default whenever they are uncertain of whether one should be there or not.

I'll use less commas if you like. But you can have my em-dashes when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I actually hate em-dashes too, but only because I find n-dashes more aesthetically pleasing. I actually often improperly use n-dashes in place of em-dashes. I'm trying to change the grammar game on that one.

You misunderstand. I love em-dashes. Can't get enough of them. It's a silly affectation because 8 out of 10 partners remove them, but I can't quit them.

My post was confusing. I was just saying I hate em-dashes as much as I hate comma overuse. I love their functionality, but prefer using an n-dash because it looks much better to me on paper, even though em-dashes are technically correct. But I'm wholly with you on the use of dashes. Dash on, brother!

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

 

[-fish-]

em dash is vastly superior to a parenthesis.

I used more commas when I wrote fiction. I use a lot less punctuation of any kind now in favor of just writing short sentences. every once in a while I'll throw in a semicolon as a nod to the death of my creative writing ability.

someday I hope everyone joins me in getting rid of capital letters at the beginning of sentences.

 

[Thorn]

Em-dashes? Or em dashes? There's an en dash in there?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I overuse em-dashes.

Em-dashes? Or em dashes?

I apparently overuse hyphens as well.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

There's an en dash in there?

- hyphen

– en dash

— em dash

 

[-fish-]

Em-dashes? Or em dashes? There's an en dash in there?

I heard you like dashes...

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

 

[Thorn]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

ew

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Dot Dash
Dip Flash
Don't Crash

 

[-fish-]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I looked it up. It's a hair space.

 

[Henry Ford]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

I will never accept this.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

I'm not even trying to float that one. I might try it if I ever hang up my own shingle, but as long as anyone else reviews my work, he or she is going to insist on two spaces for a period. I might as well try to get a partner to adopt Roman spelling. "Svmmary Jvdgment"

 

[Thorn]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

I'm not even trying to float that one. I might try it if I ever hang up my own shingle, but as long as anyone else reviews my work, he or she is going to insist on two spaces for a period. I might as well try to get a partner to adopt Roman spelling. "Svmmary Jvdgment"

Someone reviews all of your work? How big is your firm? How long have you been there?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I read an article recently arguing that the reason most commonly given for using one space instead of two after a period -- namely, that two spaces were appropriate when using typewriters with fixed-width fonts, but are out of place when using modern word processors with variable-width fonts -- is mostly BS. But faulty justifications aside, the practice is still a good one because a single space looks better.

 

[Henry Ford]

I read an article recently arguing that the reason most commonly given for using one space instead of two after a period -- namely, that two spaces were appropriate when using typewriters with fixed-width fonts, but are out of place when using modern word processors with variable-width fonts -- is mostly BS. But faulty justifications aside, the practice is still a good one because a single space looks better.

I was going to read this, but couldn't figure out where the first sentence ended, so I just gave up.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

I'm not even trying to float that one. I might try it if I ever hang up my own shingle, but as long as anyone else reviews my work, he or she is going to insist on two spaces for a period. I might as well try to get a partner to adopt Roman spelling. "Svmmary Jvdgment"

Someone reviews all of your work? How big is your firm? How long have you been there?

I'm contracting right now. At Covington, every motion at least got comments from a partner. When I switched firms, I basically worked for one partner. I'm not a great writer, but she was a pretty terrible one. It caused some friction. I don't think that's the reason I'm contracting right now. We were a small business litigation outpost in what was a regional office for the firm. Our group was expected to justify its staffing and we lost the case that had fed much of the group for the last four years. I was last in, and thus, first out. Still, I could probably be labelled a big firm wash-out. I mean, you see how much time I spend on here. Not really a recipe for a successful practice.

I still draft motions as a contractor. But they still get looked at by the partner running the case. I don't run my own cases. My wife is a senior associate at Vault 100 firm and she doesn't really run her own cases either, even when she should. The one exception, for both of us, has been pro bono matters.

 

[Zow]

Oh, fine, if we're doing actual answers.

Philosophy. Actually, I think about 50% of the lawyers I've worked with have been English/Literature majors, and the rest Philosophy.

Really? I see a lot of political science majors.

Same here.

I'm the standard poli sci major from a liberal arts college. Minored in Writing, however, which explains my use of commas and insistence on flowery language.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

This guy does an excellent writing seminar.

Highly recommend. Pricey, but worth it imo.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

This guy does an excellent writing seminar.

Highly recommend. Pricey, but worth it imo.

I attended his seminar in San Diego. I approached him afterward to ask about once space versus two after a period. (His answer: one.)

The handout was a workbook of some sort. I'd love to find it, but I have no clue where it is at this point. The seminar was a long time ago.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Which of these reads more devastatingly -

"Counsel has conveniently forgotten to mention that the statute in question was altered four years ago, when the wise legislature determined that the statute in question was inefficient, prior to the onset of the events which form the basis of this lawsuit"

or

"The statute quoted by defendant in its brief was superceded fourteen months before the events of this suit and therefore is inapplicable."

Agree. Establish your own credibility, his will take care of itself without your efforts. Also remember in small town practice this lawyer and the Judge may be golfing or poker buddies. Don't put the Court in a position more awkward than need be. Win your case, establish your credibility, but be magnanimous, even when it hurts. Your client will not be served by destruction of another lawyer. What that will cause is unnecessary fighting on the collateral matter. If you slap him, even righteously, he will slap back and you two are off and running on a matter that is not your client's business. Your client ultimately will not want to fund that fight.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It just makes common sense, too. You're essentially participating in fancy name-calling rather than explaining why you ought to win. You don't want a judge thinking you're petty.

When I was in law school, my legal writing instructor gave me some good advice: Write your brief in a style that would make the judge comfortable copying-and-pasting large parts of it into his decision. If your tone would be inappropriate coming from a judge, it's likely inappropriate coming from you as well.

Got the same advice, but not in law school - from an attorney I used to work with many years ago, but a little more vulgar.

"Don't be a fencer - fencing is an attempt to make yourself look superior and score a thousand hits without causing any damage. While he's tapping you with a dull blade and showing off, hit him in the head with a brick and #### down his throat."

I like it. It's subtle.

 

[Zow]

So one of my firm's partners and I sat down and did the math for my quarterly commission/fee sharing. Partner and I then got curious to see just how much money I was "making" the firm. Turns out that approximately for every one dollar I am paid, I make the firm two dollars. Partner seemed happy with this, but I don't know what to make of it.

Firm guys, what's a typically good profit margin for a firm and an associate?

 

[Thorn]

So one of my firm's partners and I sat down and did the math for my quarterly commission/fee sharing. Partner and I then got curious to see just how much money I was "making" the firm. Turns out that approximately for every one dollar I am paid, I make the firm two dollars. Partner seemed happy with this, but I don't know what to make of it.

Firm guys, what's a typically good profit margin for a firm and an associate?

Assuming the two dollars is gross revenue, that was exactly the target when I was at my old firm - bring in 3x your salary in revenue.

 

[Thorn]

I overuse em-dashes.

I went through a phase of doing Ctrl+0151 in my FFA posts instead of double hyphens — but I lost confidence that my true em-dashes were being displayed correctly in all operating systems and browsers.

I see you favor the [text][space]—[space][text] formulation. I like to cozy mine right up to the text.

Yes.

Just like there are different types of dashes, there are also different types of spaces. Professional typesetters will often use a very tiny space between the text and the em dash. I forget what it's called. I don't know how to do the very tiny space, either on message boards or in MS Word. When I have to choose between a regular space or no space, I generally go with a regular space. But a good case can be made for no space, which more closely resembles the really tiny space.

I'm still rebelling against the idea of only putting one space between a period and the first word of the next sentence. I'm not sure I can handle tiny spaces.

I'm not even trying to float that one. I might try it if I ever hang up my own shingle, but as long as anyone else reviews my work, he or she is going to insist on two spaces for a period. I might as well try to get a partner to adopt Roman spelling. "Svmmary Jvdgment"

Someone reviews all of your work? How big is your firm? How long have you been there?

I'm contracting right now. At Covington, every motion at least got comments from a partner. When I switched firms, I basically worked for one partner. I'm not a great writer, but she was a pretty terrible one. It caused some friction. I don't think that's the reason I'm contracting right now. We were a small business litigation outpost in what was a regional office for the firm. Our group was expected to justify its staffing and we lost the case that had fed much of the group for the last four years. I was last in, and thus, first out. Still, I could probably be labelled a big firm wash-out. I mean, you see how much time I spend on here. Not really a recipe for a successful practice.

I still draft motions as a contractor. But they still get looked at by the partner running the case. I don't run my own cases. My wife is a senior associate at Vault 100 firm and she doesn't really run her own cases either, even when she should. The one exception, for both of us, has been pro bono matters.

Interesting. I've always been a small-firm lawyer. It hasn't been required that I have a partner review/comment on my work since about the end of my first year as an associate.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

So one of my firm's partners and I sat down and did the math for my quarterly commission/fee sharing. Partner and I then got curious to see just how much money I was "making" the firm. Turns out that approximately for every one dollar I am paid, I make the firm two dollars. Partner seemed happy with this, but I don't know what to make of it.

Firm guys, what's a typically good profit margin for a firm and an associate?

When I left the firm to go out on my own my receivables were on pace for roughly 3 times my salary, so my billable hours were more obviously. I'm guessing that by year end my receivables were always over 2 times but just under 3 times my salary.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

The old rule of thumb back in the day was that an associate's fee generation should roughly be allocated one third to his salary, one third to his overhead and one third to profit for partners.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Divorce brief in the works. Time to put that aside for........................ estate accounting. Woohoo. Need to do a complete formal sub accounting of a sub account of the overal estate for a specific beneficiary. I hate numbers.

 

[Zow]

Thanks for the salary inputs. Sounds like I'm both generating appropriate business and being paid appropriately.

 

[-fish-]

Thanks for the salary inputs. Sounds like I'm both generating appropriate business and being paid appropriately.

...or the traditional expectations of associates have been too high and associates have been underpaid.