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WR Tyrell Williams, DET - 9.22.21 - Concussion - Unlikely To Play Week 3 (1 Viewer)

Hankmoody said:
Probably, but it's interesting to look at.  If LAC gives him a 1st round tender would another team think he's worth that?  You can roll the dice on a late 1st like who, Anthony Miller?  Christian Kirk?  Or you can make an offer to Tyrell that the LAC find tough to match?  Just how much do you think LAC would be willing to pay the guy?  I don't know their cap situation or strategy, is loading Rivers up with targets worth the opportunity cost elsewhere on the roster?  I think a 2nd round tender would definitely get him offers - hell I'd be happy to see Oakland make one - would LAC be happy to cash him in for that and spend the pick elsewhere?
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I would be very surprised if the Chargers give him a first round tender. It will probably be over $4M, and I seriously doubt they want to pay him that much. If Benjamin returns, Tyrell and Benjamin would split WR3/WR4 duties, behind Allen and Mike Williams as well as Henry and the RBs. That is too much money for a WR3/WR4 who doesn't play special teams.

As a Chargers fan, I would be happy to see them get a second round pick for him and keep Benjamin as the WR3. They have a lot of roster needs, and a second round pick would be more valuable to them IMO.

 
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Just Win Baby said:
You guys know that PFF grades are about real football, not fantasy football, right?

Their process is explained here: PFF PLAYER GRADES

Excerpt:
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Yes, hence the "because".  It's a very interesting study, "because" he's grading out poorly by them yet producing very well on a per-target basis.  So he's been more productive per-target than Keenan Allen with the same QB throwing him the ball, 2.0 PPT vs. 1.77 PPT.  And he did it last year too as their primary WR, 1.82 PPT.  It would be one thing if he just racked up garbage points on volume, but his 2016 production (69/1059/7 on 119 targets) is slightly better than Keenan Allen's first 13 weeks of this year (77/1032/5 on 121) - and that's after Allen tore it up for three straight weeks and set some NFL record IIRC.

So there's a disconnect between their grades and the guy's on-field production.  I'm guessing the Chargers' coaches are more worried about the latter, and I guarantee you FF owners are.

 
Chaka said:
I also recognize that any methodology that tries to grade such things is highly subjective and will necessarily reflect the bias of the graders.
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No doubt, but they use three different analysts and vet results with former coaches. It seems like a they have done about as good a job as is reasonably possible to remove bias.

Chaka said:
I also wonder, even if the methodology were foolproof what is the scoring gap between WR 40 and WR 140 in any particular category, i.e. is it statistically significant?
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As described in their methodology, they eventually end up with a grade on a scale of 0-100. Out of 199 graded WRs, here are Tyrell's grades and rankings:

Tyrell's overall grade is 55.8, which ranks #129 overall; for context:

  • Antonio Brown ranked #1 with a 93.7 overall grade
  • Sterling Shephard ranked #40 with a 76.6 overall grade
  • Amari Cooper and Kalif Raymond ranked #140-141, tied with a 51.9 overall grade
  • Breshad Perriman ranked #199 (last) with a 39 overall grade
Tyrell's receiving grade is 57.2, which ranks #115T (tied with Jeff Janis); for context:

  • Antonio Brown ranked #1 with a 92.5 receiving grade
  • Keelan Cole and TJ Jones ranked #39-#40, tied with a 77.5 receiving grade
  • Dwayne Harris ranked #140 with a 51.6 receiving grade
  • Breshad Perriman ranked #199 (last) with a 38.8 receiving grade
Tyrell's run blocking grade is 48.7, which ranks #169T (tied with Cooper Kupp and Aldrick Robinson); for context:

  • Robert Woods ranked #1 with a 77.6 run blocking grade
  • Stefon Diggs, Chris Conley, and Darrius Heyward-Bey ranked #39-#41, tied with a 69.7 run blocking grade
  • Justin Hunter ranked #140 with a 52.9 run blocking grade
  • Donte Moncrief ranked #199 (last) with a 43 run blocking grade
 
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Hankmoody said:
Yes, hence the "because".  It's a very interesting study, "because" he's grading out poorly by them yet producing very well on a per-target basis.  So he's been more productive per-target than Keenan Allen with the same QB throwing him the ball, 2.0 PPT vs. 1.77 PPT.  And he did it last year too as their primary WR, 1.82 PPT.  It would be one thing if he just racked up garbage points on volume, but his 2016 production (69/1059/7 on 119 targets) is slightly better than Keenan Allen's first 13 weeks of this year (77/1032/5 on 121) - and that's after Allen tore it up for three straight weeks and set some NFL record IIRC.
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From the PFF explanation above: "By recording performance on every single snap, we come to a more complete conclusion and evaluation... We aren’t grading players based on the yardage they rack up or the stats they collect. Statistics can be indicative of performance but don’t tell the whole story and can often lie badly."

Per target metrics obviously only look at plays when the WR is targeted. Throughout his tenure with the Chargers, Tyrell has been a poor route runner and has struggled to gain separation downfield, which is one reason they target him at a high rate on crossing routes where the nature of the play gets him automatic separation against man coverage, and he can use his speed to gain YAC. PFF's methodology will downgrade him for running incorrect routes, running poor routes, and failing to gain separation. Looking at per route metrics might show a more complete picture - he was #66 in yards per route run this season.

Last year, with Allen, Stevie Johnson, and Woodhead out and Benjamin playing through a PCL injury, Rivers had to force targets to Tyrell, which is one reason Rivers had 9 interceptions targeting him last season. This season, the offense was healthier and Rivers didn't have to force it. This implies that when he was targeted, he would get higher quality targets, so it isn't surprising his per target numbers are strong. The flip side is that not having to force it meant his targets dropped off significantly.

Hankmoody said:
So there's a disconnect between their grades and the guy's on-field production.  I'm guessing the Chargers' coaches are more worried about the latter
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IMO the coaches and Rivers are most concerned with on field performance, which is not necessarily the same as production. Regardless, his production/performance wasn't good enough to justify a bigger target share.

 
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Just Win Baby said:
If you think Rivers is the problem with the Chargers, there isn't much point having a conversation about it with you.

He doesn't lock on one receiver. You have claimed in the past to see Chargers receivers (Tyrell and Ladarius Green, specifically) running wide open all the time without getting the ball from Rivers. That claim is laughable and undermines your credibility. Again, no point debating this with you.
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Well since my credibility on here means nothing I'll continue to go after Rivers. I really don't mind what people i don't know think of me. I've made good and bad calls on here. Value what i say on here however you want. 

He hasn't won more than 9 games in the last 8 years.

He's averaged 15 INTs a year over that span.

Average INT thrown by playoffs QB this year is under 10 I believe. 

He doesn't extend plays with his feet ever like Big Ben. Play doesn't work like its designed Rivers turns into the worst QB in the league.

He decides who he's going to throw to before the ball is snapped a lot. He gets away with it a lot because of his great accuracy and arm strength but throws more picks than he should and leaves tons of yards on the field. 

I have talked about it in the Ladarius Green thread and even provided examples. One where Rivers forced it to Allen in double or triple coverage when Green was running a short crossing route the other direction with literally nobody on him. Rivers eyes never left Allen. 

Green went to Pittsburgh and started to flash.....he was going to start blowing up but unfortunately couldn't stay healthy. To bad because the Chargers and Rivers were going to eat some serious crow. 

How many elite QB does anybody know that win 9 or less games for a decade?

 
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I don't mean to jump in the middle of a conversation, but Big Ben is a pretty good comp. If you look at their stats, they are similar but Rivers is usually a little better. And the messed up part of it is that Ben has been surrounded by a much better team with better management. SD has been a total cluster during Rivers' tenure, yet he just keeps on producing. I'm not even a big Rivers fan nor do I dislike Ben. That's why I felt like jumping in here. Rivers is on par if not better than Ben. He's thrown about the same number of attempts but has more TDs and fewer INTs. He doesn't extend plays with his legs, but he also takes fewer sacks despite playing with a bad OL most of his career. 

As much as Brady fans don't want to admit it, football is a team game. I don't think it's fair to blame Rivers for SD's failures. I mean, they had Norv freakin' Turner as coach for half of his career.  :X

 
Rivers is similar to Big Ben but there is one huge huge difference. Big Ben can extend plays with the best of them. Rivers can not and never has.  Also a gimpy Ladarius Green basically double his yards per game in pittsburgh. He was going to get even better. He was just settling in......

Rivers has had decent talent but he ignores them. 

 
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Man, I was a Ladarius fan, too, but he was obviously the TE2 in SD and he was the TE1 in PIT. Apples and oranges.

This extending plays argument is pretty bad. It frequently led to sacks and bad passes and it also is the main reason Ben has missed so much time to injury over his career. Ben hasn't won more games because he extends plays with his legs. He's won more games because he's on a better football team.

 
FF Ninja said:
Man, I was a Ladarius fan, too, but he was obviously the TE2 in SD and he was the TE1 in PIT. Apples and oranges.

This extending plays argument is pretty bad. It frequently led to sacks and bad passes and it also is the main reason Ben has missed so much time to injury over his career. Ben hasn't won more games because he extends plays with his legs. He's won more games because he's on a better football team.
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Couldn't disagree more and i imagine 100% of nfl teams would draft Ben in front of Rivers as well. Extending plays is incredibly valuable. The league is moving to more mobile QB too because of this. 

Green was TE2 when he shouldn't have been. That's one of my big issues with SD. People want to say they didnt have talent but it's hard for me to buy into that when they don't use the talent they have. I mean how hard is to to move your 6'6 TE that runs like a gazelle into the slot? 

He went straight to Pittsburgh and even though he was gimpy and not really settled in yet (he missed all of training) he was on pace for an 800 yard season. Right out of the gate. 

SD made that guy block on sit on the sidelines while they won 5 games and Rivers threw 21 picks and they are doing the same thing with Tyrell. 

Rivers is def not as good as Big Ben and the SD organization def doesn't identify talent as well as Pittsburgh. 

 
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Milkman said:
Couldn't disagree more and i imagine 100% of nfl teams would draft Ben in front of Rivers as well. Extending plays is incredibly valuable. The league is moving to more mobile QB too because of this. 

Green was TE2 when he shouldn't have been. That's one of my big issues with SD. People want to say they didnt have talent but it's hard for me to buy into that when they don't use the talent they have. I mean how hard is to to move your 6'6 TE that runs like a gazelle into the slot? 

He went straight to Pittsburgh and even though he was gimpy and not really settled in yet (he missed all of training) he was on pace for an 800 yard season. Right out of the gate. 

SD made that guy block on sit on the sidelines while they won 5 games and Rivers threw 21 picks and they are doing the same thing with Tyrell. 

Rivers is def not as good as Big Ben and the SD organization def doesn't identify talent as well as Pittsburgh. 
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Your Ladarius butt hurt is just too much. I mean, I had some, too (I was also a LD truther), but yours is next level. Yes, SD may have wasted his talent* but that doesn't somehow invalidate the fact that the rest of the team just didn't have much talent. During Rivers' tenure the OL has been bad and the defense has rarely even qualified as mediocre. Outside of maybe a couple years with Marty, the coaches have been a joke. The GM for the first half of his career was also a joke. You can't seriously pretend Ben and Rivers have had similar luck with their franchises. You won't be able to find a single soul that would agree with you there.

Also, you are merely speculating that teams would draft Ben over Rivers. I think it would be very, very close. As for extending plays, Ben has killed plenty of drives by taking a sack or fumbling when trying to extend plays and he's missed a lot of games due to injuries he's succumbed by trying to stay up when he should've either thrown the ball away or gone down quickly. I don't mean to say extending plays doesn't have some value, but it is WAAAAY less than you seem to think. He doesn't do it that often and even when he has, how many times has it actually made a positive difference? I wouldn't be surprised if it has hurt just as much as it has helped.

*I don't recall LD being on pace for 800 yards and I can't find any game logs to back it up. I liked his talent, but even as a fan, I've got to check him off as "unknown" since he never got a chance to show it.

 
Green was averaging 50 yards a game over 6 games. Small sample but still it's significant because he wasn't even really up to speed and playing a bit banged up. I anticipated those numbers going up not down.

Not hard to find either so I'm confused you are having a hard time finding the numbers. Here they are.

http://www.nfl.com/player/ladariusgreen/2532853/careerstats

LOL Green was totally wasted. He could have been a 1000 yard double digit TE easy for SD and they probably make the playoffs if they used him more. Then he doubles his per game output and looks like a top 5 TE right out the box in Pittsburgh but lol at not being able to find the stats. I'm not butt hurt I just right and Green and Big Ben proved in in 6 games.  SD wanted to run their offense through a slow aging TE in Gates and they struggled because of it. The fact they refused to use their #1 receiving option means they get no pass for not having talent. Use the talent you have. Put them in a position to maximize their impact on the game. SD answer for that.......lets have our 6'6 beast of a TE block so we can run out aging TE on routes all game......

When Big Ben extends plays and gets sacked it's the same outcome as Rivers not extending the play and getting sacked. Give me the QB that can extend the play everytime and lol at fumbles.......Rivers has 8 more career fumbles than Big Ben............Being able to scramble saved more fumbles than is caused. Big Ben does have more INT but again Rivers is not extending any plays. So he's not giving his team anything after the play breaks down.

I do agree it could be coaching or the way the organization has been run. That can have a big impact on a teams performance and I don't think Rivers is a bad QB. He just hasn't used weapons he has had like he should. Maybe because of coaching. Maybe because he doesn't see the field great. I mean it is hard to throw to Green when he's blocking. There def is an example where a player that I was high on went from one QB to the other and performed significantly better. Right out of the box....Gimpy....no training camp and boom Pittsburgh turns Green into a top 5 TE like that.

 
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I anticipate Tyrell making a similar significant improvement on his production if he gets out of SD and goes to a really good situation like Green did.

 
Chaka said:
I can't see any scenario where a team gives up a first for him.  To me he looks closer to a modern day Alvin Harper than anything, I don't think he has the ability to make hay without a credible #1 WR opposite him (and an above average QB...and probably a good running game too).  
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Just Win Baby said:
I would be very surprised if the Chargers give him a first round tender. It will probably be over $4M, and I seriously doubt they want to pay him that much. If Benjamin returns, Tyrell and Benjamin would split WR3/WR4 duties, behind Allen and Mike Williams as well as Henry and the RBs. That is too much money for a WR3/WR4 who doesn't play special teams.

As a Chargers fan, I would be happy to see them get a second round pick for him and keep Benjamin as the WR3. They have a lot of roster needs, and a second round pick would be more valuable to them IMO.
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He's easily worth a 2nd to a team like the Chiefs who could use him as their #2 wr / 3rd receiving target. He'd do well in Carolina too. Imo.

 
Milkman said:
Green was averaging 50 yards a game over 6 games. Small sample but still it's significant because he wasn't even really up to speed and playing a bit banged up. I anticipated those numbers going up not down.

Not hard to find either so I'm confused you are having a hard time finding the numbers. Here they are.

http://www.nfl.com/player/ladariusgreen/2532853/careerstats

LOL Green was totally wasted. He could have been a 1000 yard double digit TE easy for SD and they probably make the playoffs if they used him more. Then he doubles his per game output and looks like a top 5 TE right out the box in Pittsburgh but lol at not being able to find the stats. I'm not butt hurt I just right and Green and Big Ben proved in in 6 games.  SD wanted to run their offense through a slow aging TE in Gates and they struggled because of it. The fact they refused to use their #1 receiving option means they get no pass for not having talent. Use the talent you have. Put them in a position to maximize their impact on the game. SD answer for that.......lets have our 6'6 beast of a TE block so we can run out aging TE on routes all game......

When Big Ben extends plays and gets sacked it's the same outcome as Rivers not extending the play and getting sacked. Give me the QB that can extend the play everytime and lol at fumbles.......Rivers has 8 more career fumbles than Big Ben............Being able to scramble saved more fumbles than is caused. Big Ben does have more INT but again Rivers is not extending any plays. So he's not giving his team anything after the play breaks down.

I do agree it could be coaching or the way the organization has been run. That can have a big impact on a teams performance and I don't think Rivers is a bad QB. He just hasn't used weapons he has had like he should. Maybe because of coaching. Maybe because he doesn't see the field great. I mean it is hard to throw to Green when he's blocking. There def is an example where a player that I was high on went from one QB to the other and performed significantly better. Right out of the box....Gimpy....no training camp and boom Pittsburgh turns Green into a top 5 TE like that.
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I thought you were implying he started the season hot and was on pace for 800 yards, but he missed the first half of the season so I wasn't sure where you were going with that. I see now what you were saying, but a sample size that small means little to nothing. Like you, I would've liked to have seen what LD could've done as a TE1 but truth is we'll never know. Like I keep saying, he was the clear backup to Gates so comparing his numbers with Rivers to his (very limited) numbers with Ben is just not a fair comparison. I wanted to see LD get snaps over Gates or get some first looks in 2TE sets, but the coaches just weren't into it. So we agree he could've gotten more use in SD, but you can't blame Rivers for that. Blame the inept coaches. They probably held Rivers back to some extent just like they held LD back.

Rivers is more willing to throw the ball away than Ben, so it's not like there are only two options: get sacked or extend the play. Going for 2nd and 10 is a viable option. And yes, Rivers has more fumbles than Ben, but again, his OL sucked. But I can't overstate enough just how overrated this extending the play thing is. How many times has it actually made a difference in a game? I think you'd be shocked at just how rarely it has.

Anyway, I like Tyrell a bit so we don't disagree on him. I think he's a solid hold in dynasty, but he hasn't played well this year and you can't blame Rivers for that. You also can't blame Rivers for his snaps (or LD's snaps, either). If Gates had retired and LD stayed in SD, I think he'd have done just as well if not better with Rivers than with Ben. But that tiny sample size with Ben means nothing.

 
FF Ninja said:
I thought you were implying he started the season hot and was on pace for 800 yards, but he missed the first half of the season so I wasn't sure where you were going with that. I see now what you were saying, but a sample size that small means little to nothing. Like you, I would've liked to have seen what LD could've done as a TE1 but truth is we'll never know. Like I keep saying, he was the clear backup to Gates so comparing his numbers with Rivers to his (very limited) numbers with Ben is just not a fair comparison. I wanted to see LD get snaps over Gates or get some first looks in 2TE sets, but the coaches just weren't into it. So we agree he could've gotten more use in SD, but you can't blame Rivers for that. Blame the inept coaches. They probably held Rivers back to some extent just like they held LD back.

Rivers is more willing to throw the ball away than Ben, so it's not like there are only two options: get sacked or extend the play. Going for 2nd and 10 is a viable option. And yes, Rivers has more fumbles than Ben, but again, his OL sucked. But I can't overstate enough just how overrated this extending the play thing is. How many times has it actually made a difference in a game? I think you'd be shocked at just how rarely it has.

Anyway, I like Tyrell a bit so we don't disagree on him. I think he's a solid hold in dynasty, but he hasn't played well this year and you can't blame Rivers for that. You also can't blame Rivers for his snaps (or LD's snaps, either). If Gates had retired and LD stayed in SD, I think he'd have done just as well if not better with Rivers than with Ben. But that tiny sample size with Ben means nothing.
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I disagree 6 games is too small considering he didnt play in the preseason and was banged up. It was pretty impressive and he was just getting started but since it doesnt fit a narrative ignore it if you want. 

Extending plays is big. It looks like i won't be able to convince you so think what you want about it i guess. Shrug. Just because it only happens a handful of times doesnt make it not valuable. 

If Green had stayed in SD Allen would get 12+ targets a game Green would get 5. Just like Tyrell is now. Go and look I'm not going to pull it up anymore i did it before and it was just ignored but there's tape of Rivers forcing it to Allen and not seeing other guys running wide open. 

I'll quit now though. I'm wasting my time. It's the off-season anyway. 

Run Tyrell run! Rivers hates you and you'll never see 100 targets in a season playing with him unless half the team gets hurt. 

 
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Milkman said:
How many elite QB does anybody know that win 9 or less games for a decade?
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First of all, I don't think anyone in this thread has characterized Rivers as elite. That said, it is very clear you are underrating him.

How many 'elite' QBs in the history of the NFL have played a decade for coaches as bad as Norv Turner (6 years) and Mike McCoy (4 years)? How many of them played for organizations with ownership/front office managed as badly as the Spanos family has run the Chargers?

 
Milkman said:
I disagree 6 games is too small considering he didnt play in the preseason and was banged up. It was pretty impressive and he was just getting started but since it doesnt fit a narrative ignore it if you want. 

Extending plays is big. It looks like i won't be able to convince you so think what you want about it i guess. Shrug. Just because it only happens a handful of times doesnt make it not valuable. 

If Green had stayed in SD Allen would get 12+ targets a game Green would get 5. Just like Tyrell is now. Go and look I'm not going to pull it up anymore i did it before and it was just ignored but there's tape of Rivers forcing it to Allen and not seeing other guys running wide open. 

I'll quit now though. I'm wasting my time. It's the off-season anyway. 

Run Tyrell run! Rivers hates you and you'll never see 100 targets in a season playing with him unless half the team gets hurt. 
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Dude, there is no narrative. I keep telling you I was a LD fan. I wanted him to succeed. I'm just not blind to the fact that 6 games is not a sufficient sample size. I'm in agreement that his short tenure in PIT was impressive, especially given the circumstances (so much missed time) but it's still just 6 games. And his lack of production in SD was much more on the HC/OC than the QB.

Keenan Allen is elite. You can't blame the Chargers for scheming to get him the ball. I think Tyrell could be good, but even the most optimistic outcome for Tyrell still does not make him as good as Keenan. Also, I thought this went without saying but every QB has thrown the ball to their first read when another player is open. There's tape of it on EVERY. SINGLE. QB. It probably happens several times a game for every team. The fact you are freaking out about it makes me think you focus so much on your own particular fantasy situation that you can't actually watch the football being played. Rivers completed 64% of his passes to Allen for 13.7 ypr. Even more importantly, Keenan led the league in first downs. Rivers throwing to Keenan was not a problem for SD this year, so you can drop that one.

You clearly made your mind up before entering this discussion. You are mad that your two players didn't get the targets you wanted so you're incorrectly blaming Rivers and overhyping Ben for some unknown reason. It's weird to watch and just makes you look angry and biased. 

 
Wow.  Is this thread all over the place with some really odd positions by some, IMO.

I am a Ty Williams owner.  I was looking for WR2 production out of him and ended up playing half my FF season using Marquise Goodwin at WR and sitting Williams because Williams wasn’t producing.  That sucked.

This comes down to something very simple for me.  Williams has all the physical tools and measureables necessary to be a true impact WR.  He has a prolific QB throwing the football. Say whatever you want about Rivers, but the production is there.

So where is the issue?  To me, it’s trust.  Rivers simply does not trust Williams.  When you have the proper resource in place and a competent and productive triggerman refuses to use it, there is an issue much more likely with the WR than the QB.  It seems as though Rivers felt that he could not rely on Williams to be where he was supposed to be when the ball was thrown.  That and some bad drops.

That won’t change just with a change of scenery.  That changes when Williams decides he is going to work harder at being a good route runner and increases his concentration.  He’s still young, it could definitely happen.  But it is going to take Williams taking his job more seriously and dedicating himself to making himself a better player.  Until then, he’s just a bye week filler, no matter whose uniform he is wearing.  

My two cents for what they are worth.

 
Bronco Billy said:
So where is the issue?  To me, it’s trust.  Rivers simply does not trust Williams.  When you have the proper resource in place and a competent and productive triggerman refuses to use it, there is an issue much more likely with the WR than the QB.  It seems as though Rivers felt that he could not rely on Williams to be where he was supposed to be when the ball was thrown.  That and some bad drops.
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I'm also a fan of Williams and I think this is spot on. Some WRs are physically imposing specimens - but it ends there. Williams is a great athlete but it's looking like he will not be a great WR. It happens both ways, sometimes you have guys that have all the tools (Dorial Green Bechkam, Tyrone Calico, Justin Hunter) but never put up sustained production and then you have guys that are "subpar" athletes (Michael Crabree, Julian Edelman, Wes Welker) but know how to get open and know what to do with the ball once they have it.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I'm also a fan of Williams and I think this is spot on. Some WRs are physically imposing specimens - but it ends there. Williams is a great athlete but it's looking like he will not be a great WR. It happens both ways, sometimes you have guys that have all the tools (Dorial Green Bechkam, Tyrone Calico, Justin Hunter) but never put up sustained production and then you have guys that are "subpar" athletes (Michael Crabree, Julian Edelman, Wes Welker) but know how to get open and know what to do with the ball once they have it.
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Interesting that all the guys cited (for good reason) were Titans draft picks. We'll see if Corey Davis can buck the trend.

And as for other "subpar" athletes, you can also throw Keenan in there. He doesn't have wow measurables either, but more than makes up with his guile and instincts.

 
FF Ninja said:
Dude, there is no narrative. I keep telling you I was a LD fan. I wanted him to succeed. I'm just not blind to the fact that 6 games is not a sufficient sample size. I'm in agreement that his short tenure in PIT was impressive, especially given the circumstances (so much missed time) but it's still just 6 games. And his lack of production in SD was much more on the HC/OC than the QB.

Keenan Allen is elite. You can't blame the Chargers for scheming to get him the ball. I think Tyrell could be good, but even the most optimistic outcome for Tyrell still does not make him as good as Keenan. Also, I thought this went without saying but every QB has thrown the ball to their first read when another player is open. There's tape of it on EVERY. SINGLE. QB. It probably happens several times a game for every team. The fact you are freaking out about it makes me think you focus so much on your own particular fantasy situation that you can't actually watch the football being played. Rivers completed 64% of his passes to Allen for 13.7 ypr. Even more importantly, Keenan led the league in first downs. Rivers throwing to Keenan was not a problem for SD this year, so you can drop that one.

You clearly made your mind up before entering this discussion. You are mad that your two players didn't get the targets you wanted so you're incorrectly blaming Rivers and overhyping Ben for some unknown reason. It's weird to watch and just makes you look angry and biased. 
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Well Rivers has wasted some great talent. At least you said Green looked impressive even though it wasn't a big enough sample for you to be sure. I agree QB's don't see open receivers all the time but imo Rivers does it more and he has really wasted some special talent the last 5 years. So i laugh when people say he didn't have the talent around like  other QB. He had an incredible weapon in Ladarius Green imo and he didn't throw it to him. 

I def won't say Rivers sucks. He clearly doesn't but he's not elite and part of the reason is i don't think he sees the field very good. 

 
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Milkman said:
Well Rivers has wasted some great talent. At least you said Green looked impressive even though it wasn't a big enough sample for you to be sure. I agree QB's don't see open receivers all the time but imo Rivers does it more and he has really wasted some special talent the last 5 years. So i laugh when people say he didn't have the talent around like  other QB. He had an incredible weapon in Ladarius Green imo and he didn't throw it to him. 

I def won't say Rivers sucks. He clearly doesn't but he's not elite and part of the reason is i don't think he sees the field very good. 
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Wait.  You’re hinging your entire argument on the position that Rivers doesn’t know how to utilize a TE?  Really?

 
Bronco Billy said:
Wait.  You’re hinging your entire argument on the position that Rivers doesn’t know how to utilize a TE?  Really?
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I think its because the two players that Milkman obsessively championed, did not become major stars playing with Rivers - so it must be River's fault (despite the fact he's a borderline Hall of Famer).

 
Bronco Billy said:
Wait.  You’re hinging your entire argument on the position that Rivers doesn’t know how to utilize a TE?  Really?
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Haha that's so ######ed i don't know how to respond. Green went to Pittsburgh and immediately produced double what he produced in SD. Lololol

 
Milkman said:
Haha that's so ######ed i don't know how to respond. Green went to Pittsburgh and immediately produced double what he produced in SD. Lololol
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So Gates would have produced what in PIT by your logic?  Twice as much as he did in his career in SD with Rivers?  That would be quite impressive.

 
Milkman said:
Haha that's so ######ed i don't know how to respond. Green went to Pittsburgh and immediately produced double what he produced in SD. Lololol
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Green’s catch % in Pittsburgh over those 6 games was 52.9%.  Had he remained healthy he was headed to the bench, not the pro bowl.

 
Bronco Billy said:
Wow.  Is this thread all over the place with some really odd positions by some, IMO.

I am a Ty Williams owner.  I was looking for WR2 production out of him and ended up playing half my FF season using Marquise Goodwin at WR and sitting Williams because Williams wasn’t producing.  That sucked.

This comes down to something very simple for me.  Williams has all the physical tools and measureables necessary to be a true impact WR.  He has a prolific QB throwing the football. Say whatever you want about Rivers, but the production is there.

So where is the issue?  To me, it’s trust.  Rivers simply does not trust Williams.  When you have the proper resource in place and a competent and productive triggerman refuses to use it, there is an issue much more likely with the WR than the QB.  It seems as though Rivers felt that he could not rely on Williams to be where he was supposed to be when the ball was thrown.  That and some bad drops.

That won’t change just with a change of scenery.  That changes when Williams decides he is going to work harder at being a good route runner and increases his concentration.  He’s still young, it could definitely happen.  But it is going to take Williams taking his job more seriously and dedicating himself to making himself a better player.  Until then, he’s just a bye week filler, no matter whose uniform he is wearing.  

My two cents for what they are worth.
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This is exactly right.  As a former Charger fan who watched every snap of Green’s Charger career and all of Williams’ snaps prior to this year, the idea that San Diego has been sitting on Pro Bowl weapons but simply refusing to use them is beyond silly.  No one sees the field and understands defenses better than Philip Rivers - it’s why he’s a borderline HOFer despite having minimal athleticism and simply above average arm strength.  His ability to identify the defensive weakness on any given play and his accuracy are by far his strongest traits (along with toughness), and that is why being in the right place and running the right routes is so important for receivers in his offenses.  

As a Charger fan, nothing would have been better than for Green to emerge as a 2nd dynamic TE weapon as Gates was on the backside of his career.  We would have LOVED that!  But over and over and over again, Green was not in the right place, or not open, or simply was unable to catch the ball from one of the most accurate QBs on NFL history.  

Williams is better than Green ever was, but although he’s a long strider with excellent top speed but below average quickness.  There is a reason the drag is by far his best route.  

 
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Milkman said:
So i laugh when people say he didn't have the talent around like  other QB. He had an incredible weapon in Ladarius Green imo and he didn't throw it to him. 
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I just can't fathom how you are so short sighted here. You're complaining about his usage of a 2nd TE while totally ignoring defense and OL. That's what I'm talking about when I say Ben had much more talent around him than Rivers. Those many positions are much greater in importance than a backup TE and a drop-prone backup WR. 

 
FF Ninja said:
I just can't fathom how you are so short sighted here.
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It's starting to seem like it's even more than just that.

To him calling Rivers a borderline future Hall of Famer is more laughable than him thinking Rivers sucks and Green and Williams are super studs who were/are being wasted in San Diego/LA (despite the fact that many players thrived in the offense).

The constant "lolololo" counterpoints is pretty telling.

 
Tyrell Williams sat out Tuesday's practice with a sore foot.

Coach Anthony downplayed the injury, suggesting his absence was merely precautionary. "He’s going to be okay," said Lynn. "He’s had a good camp and we don’t want any setbacks." The 26-year-old deep threat has made his presence felt with 1,787 receiving yards and 11 touchdowns over the past two seasons, but could take a step back this year with 2017 first-rounder Mike Williams ready to assume a bigger offensive role.

Source: Eric Williams on Twitter 

Aug 21 - 3:42 PM
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Tyrell Williams (foot) returned to Chargers practice on Monday.

He missed about two weeks with the injury, but it never threatened Williams' Week 1 status. He will be all systems go against the Chiefs. Williams is penciled in as the Chargers' No. 2 receiver, ahead of Mike Williams. Tyrell has emerged as one of the NFL's premier post-catch wideouts, in 2017 leading the league in yards after catch per reception (7.8).

Source: Eric Williams on Twitter 

Sep 3 - 3:30 PM
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I don't know for sure that Allen is going to sit but it doesn't sound good..

For the second day in a row yesterday star wide receiver Keenan Allen did not practice. Head coach Anthony Lynn said “we missed Keenan Allen on the field yesterday. He had a sore knee.” Asked if he’ll play this week, “we’ll see. Not sure. That knee was really sore yesterday.”
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There's deservedly a lot of hype surrounding Mike but if Allen sits you have to imagine that Tyrell would get a pretty big bump as well. I think he'd probably be startable vs. SF.

 
SameSongNDance said:
I don't know for sure that Allen is going to sit but it doesn't sound good..

There's deservedly a lot of hype surrounding Mike but if Allen sits you have to imagine that Tyrell would get a pretty big bump as well. I think he'd probably be startable vs. SF.
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Wouldn't it be possible they run Ekeler even more out of the slot and he becomes the primary beneficiary of Allen being out? Rivers seems to trust him implicitly.

 
PhantomJB said:
Wouldn't it be possible they run Ekeler even more out of the slot and he becomes the primary beneficiary of Allen being out? Rivers seems to trust him implicitly.
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It's possible, LAC runs a decent amount of 21 and 22 personnel. But Allen looks to have turned in some type of practice today. 

 
SameSongNDance said:
I don't know for sure that Allen is going to sit but it doesn't sound good..

There's deservedly a lot of hype surrounding Mike but if Allen sits you have to imagine that Tyrell would get a pretty big bump as well. I think he'd probably be startable vs. SF.
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Agree he gets a bump, but so do Mike W, Benjamin, Gates, and Ekeler. I’m not sure if I will start Tyrell in the one league I have him if Allen is out. Depends on status of other players. 

 
I would be VERY careful of giving Tyrell Williams a big bump here. In the past when Allen was out, it was the possession receivers like Dontrelle Inman who ate. Allen is an uber-talent guy who can seamlessly be the possession and big play guy... it's funny because who on the Chargers really fills the possession role besides him? Not Benjamin, not Mike (yet) and certainly not Tyrell. I could see Gates and the RBs get a big bump but not Tyrell, who lives more on big plays according to usage.  

 
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Milkman said:
Yes. He needs to get away from Rivers and the Chargers. They have ruined him pretty much. He'll blow wherever he goes. 
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I just think Rivers hates him lol. And Rivers is the type of QB that once he finds a guy he loves (Allen) he really latches onto them, more than most QBs. Ty dropped a few passes of his (some of them TDs) in their first few games together, and that was enough for Rivers to say "alright, this isn't my guy."

 
ShamrockPride said:
I just think Rivers hates him lol. And Rivers is the type of QB that once he finds a guy he loves (Allen) he really latches onto them, more than most QBs. Ty dropped a few passes of his (some of them TDs) in their first few games together, and that was enough for Rivers to say "alright, this isn't my guy."
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Rivers has Hated Williams for years...…..He makes a lot of decisions before the snap. I've seen some many plays where Tyrell was running wide open and Rivers forced it into triple coverage to Allen instead of throwing it to Tyrell Williams. He will do great somewhere else...….The Chargers organization has miss used a ton of talent...…..they are a joke. 

 
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