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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (13 Viewers)

Skoo said:
Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 1m1 minute ago

James Comey just totally exposed his partisan stance by urging his fellow Democrats to take back the White House in 2020. In other words, he is and has been a Democrat. Comey had no right heading the FBI at any time, but especially after his mind exploded!

TIL Democrats aren't allowed to head the FBI.
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Comey's point was that impeaching Trump could cause damage to the country, and it would be far better if he was thrown out via election by national consensus.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Comey's point was that impeaching Trump could cause damage to the country, and it would be far better if he was thrown out via election by national consensus.
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Trump isn't leaving the white House willfully....if he loses the next election....his tantrums will be nuts and he will cry collusion and voter fraud

 
[scooter] said:
The simple answer is that it was easier to conceal his illegal activities by working with lower-level actors.
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The even simpler answer is Oligarchs aren't equipped to carry out a plan themselves. It's like asking why 2 companies needed to involve a mail vendor when they had CEO-CEO agreement to send out a letter.

 
Dooook said:
Maybe a couple people here can clarify a few things for me.

If Donald Trump has connections to Russian oligarchs and high level officials, why was he so very dependent upon third party actors to connect him with extremely low level Russian "agents" in an attempt to subvert the Presidential Election? 

If Donald Trump and his campaign were working in coordination with the Russians, why would he have the need to go out in public, in front of the media and ask the Russians to find Hillary's 33,000 missing e-mails?

If Donald Trump and his campaign were working in concert with the Russians, why would they have meetings in such public places and communicate via such "open" modes of communication?

Am I correct in remembering that the only publicly known conversations between someone associated with the Trump campaign/transition and a high level Russian "agent" was when Mike Flynn spoke with Sergei Kislyak regarding sanctions during the transition and when Jeff Sessions spoke with Kislyak at his senatorial office in Septmeber of 2016? 

Do a conservative activist who works with the NRA and is banging some 28 YO Russian "Agent" trying to set up back channel communications with the Kremlin and a low level staffer and foreign policy adviser talking with a professor trying to arrange a back channel to meet with Kremlin associates sound like a group who are in close contact with and working in concert with "the Russians" to subvert the US election? 

Was Pappadumbass told by Trump campaign officials that they probably shouldn't try to arrange meetings with Russians, does this sound like a group who was actively colluding with Russia?

To anyone's knowledge, were these back channels with the Kremlin ever established, or were there just attempts by low level third parties to coordinate these connections?

Which takes me back to the main point...  If Donald Trump has connections to Russian Oligarchs, why in the world are there no records of communications between Trump, high level members of his campaign, and high level Russians?  You know why, the Russians and the Trump campaign were not colluding and Trump has no high level connections in Russia.

It seems to me that what has happened is that you have an extremely unsophisticated group of people who are trying to get Trump elected president. People who were easily duped into a grand charade by the Russians in order to sew discord and divide the US.  All the actions taken by Russia were out in the open, they left a clear and an easy to follow trail.  Everything, from digital signatures during their hacks, to communicating with Trump acolytes on devices they knew were being listened in on, to setting up meetings at Trump Tower, etc...  all of this is highly visible and unconventional for Russian intelligence officers. 
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I think I know someone who can answer all of your questions.  for some reason, the President is desperately trying discredit him though.  Not sure why he'd want to do that to someone who is about to exonerate him.  

 
Dooook said:
Which takes me back to the main point...  If Donald Trump has connections to Russian Oligarchs, why in the world are there no records of communications between Trump, high level members of his campaign, and high level Russians?  You know why, the Russians and the Trump campaign were not colluding and Trump has no high level connections in Russia.
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So the premise is the absence of overt "high level communications" means Trump had no connections to the Russian Oligarchy? 

If so, seems just a bit short sighted. 

 
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I'd actually almost forgotten about Kushner, who is Senior Adviser to the President, proposing the back channel with the Russian ambassador. I'd say that probably qualifies as a "publicly known conversation[] between someone associated with the Trump campaign/transition and a high level Russian 'agent.'" It also belies the point that this was done in the open.

I think Cohen eschewing help from the guy promising synergy because Cohen felt like he already had contacts with a guy who acted on behalf of the Russian government implies that Cohen had such high-level meetings. But I'll agree that falls under the "stuff we know exists but don't know the details" heading. 

 
And let's not even mention the meeting with Trump's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager with the woman who has said that she kept in close contact with the Russian prosecutor general while she was advocating against sanctions. Those three guys lied about that meeting over and over until it finally came out they were promised derogatory information about HilClin.

Their current story is that the meeting was about adoptions, which as anyone who follows the news knows deals with Russia's response to sanctions imposed. So we know they talked about dirt, we know they talked to someone who was advocating on behalf of the Russian government about sanctions, and we know they talked about how they could make it easier for Americans to adopt Russian kids again--which was Russia's retaliation to US sanctions. That sounds bad.

The lady they talked to resurfaced in a case in Switzerland because one of their top cops was fired  "after allegations of bribery, violating secrecy laws, and 'unauthorized clandestine behavior'" after he got caught taking stuff from her. The fired Swiss guy was working on a case their version of those same Russian sanctions and money laundering. That sounds worse.

 
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  

 
ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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Failing to register as a foreign agent is still a crime in this country, right?  And that's what she was charged with?

 The law and order party--justifying white collar crime since 1972.

 
Fun fact: once upon a time, Maria Butina was endorsed by board hero Alexei Navalny.

Yasha Levine ‏@yashalevine

"Maria Butina lobbies for gun rights and is practically the only candidate running a good election campaign...[she's] worthy of your support." — Alexei Navalny, the liberal anti-Putin politician much admired by progressive American journalists. (He's a gun rights nut, too.)

 
ren hoek said:
Fun fact: once upon a time, Maria Butina was endorsed by board hero Alexei Navalny.

Yasha Levine ‏@yashalevine

"Maria Butina lobbies for gun rights and is practically the only candidate running a good election campaign...[she's] worthy of your support." — Alexei Navalny, the liberal anti-Putin politician much admired by progressive American journalists. (He's a gun rights nut, too.)
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Don't think any of the posts that came up in your search make him a "board hero."   It's news when Putin locks up his opposition.   Which right-wing conspiracy site are you parroting these talking points from?   Wouldn't it just be quicker to post the link?

 
ren hoek said:
Alexei Navalny, the liberal
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I'm not sure Navalny is really a liberal. He's anti-Putin and his treatment is criminal but it's not clear what he wants outside of free elections, investigation of corruption and the ability to protest. Good luck figuring it out after that, he may be a nationalist himself.

 
ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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No doubt that's why she was arrested and has apparently pled guilty.

 
jomar said:
Am I correct in remembering that the only publicly known conversations between someone associated with the Trump campaign/transition and a high level Russian "agent" was when Mike Flynn spoke with Sergei Kislyak regarding sanctions during the transition and when Jeff Sessions spoke with Kislyak at his senatorial office in Septmeber of 2016? 
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You're missing a few - this may help.  Forgot about the ones at the Mayflower hotel. And Plenty of Manafort meetings. Page in Russia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/11/13/all-of-the-known-times-the-trump-campaign-met-with-russians/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.80a4719ec092

 
ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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Did you read the affidavit? 

She repeatedly had contacts with Russian government officials about establishing influence among US politicians to further Russia's agenda.  I'm no expert, but I think that goes beyond being a gun industry lobbyist, and even if that's all she really was it's still a crime to act in that capacity and not register with the AG.  

What's the tally on broken laws that Trump bootlickers have justified? It's only wire fraud, tax evasion and money laundering.  Everyone does it!

 
jomar said:
If Donald Trump and his campaign were working in coordination with the Russians, why would he have the need to go out in public, in front of the media and ask the Russians to find Hillary's 33,000 missing e-mails?
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Because he knew about the emails and he couldn't keep a secret - just like a little kid he had to blurt it out in a really haha way. "Guess what I know?"

 
ren hoek said:
Maria Butina lobbies for gun rights and is practically the only candidate running a good election campaign
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Just curious, what was she running for when he said this?

- eta - nm here it is:

In 2010, Butina graduated from the Communications, Philology, and Political Science Department at Altai State University and promptly enrolled in their graduate school. While still a student, she became a member of the Altai Territory’s Civic Chamber.
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- I mean good lord it was a local race in a territory crammed between Novosibirsk and Kazakhstan in 2014, seems very (ir)relevant.

 
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ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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I guess that depends what you mean by spy.  She was working to meet influential government and political figures, primarily older men, change their minds about Russian interests, and arrange meetings between them and Russian counterparts. 

If the CIA did that, what would you call the person doing it?

 
Dickies said:
She repeatedly had contacts with Russian government officials about establishing influence among US politicians to further Russia's agenda.  I'm no expert, but I think that goes beyond being a gun industry lobbyist, and even if that's all she really was it's still a crime to act in that capacity and not register with the AG.  
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That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  

 
ren hoek said:
That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  
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Hey, if you just want to say she’s a foreign lobbyist who failed to register under the law while trying to influence American politicians including in a romantic relationship and the Republican Party I’m fine with that kind of foreign agent.  Also a crime. Also going to lead to prison and deportation. 

 
Ignoramus said:
Pfft... I guess if you call the Russian Ambassador to the United States, a Deputy Prime Minister, three people with senior positions in the White House with the last name Trump, and the Attorney General of the United States "high level". Seems a bit of a reach though.
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They were all just coffee boys/girls

 
Henry Ford said:
I guess that depends what you mean by spy.  She was working to meet influential government and political figures, primarily older men, change their minds about Russian interests, and arrange meetings between them and Russian counterparts. 

If the CIA did that, what would you call the person doing it?
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Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  

 
ren hoek said:
That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  
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I've heard the same thing in Louisiana. Seriously, 'lobbying without a license and carrying cash around and stashing in kitchen appliances isn't illegal.'

It's corruption, Ren. It's how it's done, by evading notice of law enforcement and breaking the regulations.

 
ren hoek said:
Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  
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See, that's where the problem lies.   It's clearly illegal.   We don't need to grade how insidious it is.  Why does the right insist on justifying these crimes?

 
ren hoek said:
That's what lobbying is though, when you explain it in the most patronizing and terse way possible.  They network with people ("establish influence") to achieve their political aims ("further ______'s agenda").  So fine her, or deport her even.  But don't lock her up in solitary confinement for several months because she didn't properly inform the AG of what she was doing.  Part of the problem with overzealous prosecution is ascribing tall tale crimes and malicious intent to otherwise routine activities that happen literally all of the time in Washington, and not always for a bad reason.  

Look I'm not here to defend the practice of lobbying or something.  But this character assassination and neoMcCarthyist take on Butina just seems really uncalled for and draconian to me.  
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And what exactly do you think spies do?  In the most patronizing and terse way possible?

Hint: They don't walk into government buildings with mini cameras and snap covert pictures of blueprints to missile systems anymore.

 
ren hoek said:
Unfortunately, most of the figures who decide policy happen to be older men.  It would really depend on what the agency was lobbying on behalf of.  Is it to install a torture facility in the third world or to denuclearize the planet?  How insidious it is really depends on the nature of the lobbying imo.  
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I didn’t ask how insidious it is, I asked the job title.  

 
Like, if I hire someone to find out where my neighbor got his dog or to find out if he’s banging my wife, that person is still a private investigator. 

 
gianmarco said:
And what exactly do you think spies do?  In the most patronizing and terse way possible?

Hint: They don't walk into government buildings with mini cameras and snap covert pictures of blueprints to missile systems anymore.
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I don't know.  Espionage?  I don't usually associate spycraft with gun rights advocacy and prayer breakfasts. 

 
Henry Ford said:
I didn’t ask how insidious it is, I asked the job title.  
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If they were doing what Butina apparently did, I'd call that person a lobbyist.  If they were running reconnaissance or trying to weaponize intelligence in some way, I'd call them spies.  It really hinges on the nature of the work they're doing, which is why I brought it up.  

 
Slapdash said:
Even Putin in his state media admits more about Butina than Ren:

Butina might, in fact, have had some links to the Russian Federation Council, the upper house of the Russian parliament, Putin admitted, adding that she could have actually worked with some officials there. Still that does not justify the US legal action against her, he added.

https://www.rt.com/news/446222-putin-butina-ties-intelligence/
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The Russian Federation Council.  Where do I know that name?

Oh, right, a bunch of Republican lawmakers flew to Moscow to meet with them in July.

Kewl. 

 
ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist... There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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I'm curious what you're basis for any of these claims is and how much of the evidence you've reviewed. Or is this just hope and wild speculation?

 
ren hoek said:
If they were doing what Butina apparently did, I'd call that person a lobbyist.  If they were running reconnaissance or trying to weaponize intelligence in some way, I'd call them spies.  It really hinges on the nature of the work they're doing, which is why I brought it up.  
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Okay.  Unregistered foreign lobbyists are criminals in this country.  

 
One of the most amazing things is the DOJ charging people with no real crimes, citing not actual statutes, defendants pleading guilty to them, their attorneys letting them, and judges just saying that’s great, in cases involving victim billionaires, mega national lobbying organizations, millionaire corporate attorneys, and foreign ministries. Maybe let the judge know it’s not a real crime.

 
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It’s the same charge Anna Chapman got. That involved a ring of maybe 10-15 spies. They were deported. Chapman wasn’t just influencing lobbyists or staffers or whatever, they were stealing data. Same statute as what Butina is pleading guilty to.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
One of the most amazing things is the DOJ charging people with no real crimes, citing not actual statutes, defendants pleading guilty to them, their attorneys letting them, and judges just saying that’s great, in cases involving victim billionaires, mega national lobbying organizations, millionaire corporate attorneys, and foreign ministries. Maybe let the judge know it’s not a real crime.
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But Ren said she's just a lobbyist. In a patronizing and terse way.

 
ren hoek said:
I don't think Butina was much more than a gun industry lobbyist.  Think it's kind of shameful the way she's been locked up in solitary confinement, accused of trading sex for power etc.  It's gross really.  There is no evidence to indicate she was working as a spy.  Seems like the extent of her crimes was not notifying the AG of her lobbying activities and being Russian.  
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Peel the onion, and you'll find the route.

 
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