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WSOP Main Event - Hellmuth controversy


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We played family poker last night - my 10-year old raised my 3 bet all-in while I was holding K’s. She had 8/5 off - damn did I laugh and then I called her a loser.  She still had 30 bb’s!  She hit a

Talking about the Hand when someone is still to act is crap 

Specifically, here's why it matters in this hand.  You have to have a least a general understanding of poker and, more importantly, tournament poker, but I'll try to explain a little. In tourname

3 hours ago, Nipsey said:

It was bush league but I thought Phil just blanked for a second and forgot that there was a third person in the hand. Once he came to and remembered there was another guy behind him he shut up. He just gets off on being that character on TV.

Yep.  He did seem to chill when he realized first position still needed to act. Buying third position's entry next year was a fair and reasonable gesture. 

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55 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Event 71... Phil just went from 3rd to 1st in two hands after dinner. Only 71 BB's total in play.

Hey how'd you finish?

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11 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

In the PLO8, i finished 30 from the $$.  HORSE tomorrow.

Good luck. 

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9 minutes ago, coyote5 said:

limited range?

I wonder if it is his big stack which keeps he cards way away from the edge closest to him?  He own section must have worked since this was the final table set up I think and must have had some one next to him.

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

his comments possibly effected the person who was to bet in front of him.  That is against the rules from what I understand.

It is similar to folding out of turn which can also bring a penalty if enforced.  Usually a dealer will let it slide once but if a player does it a second time he will get dinged.

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2 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

 

He indicated to the guy on his right he wasn't a threat in the hand. In essence he folded out of turn. He made the call for that guy easier.

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2 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

his comments possibly effected the person who was to bet in front of him.  That is against the rules from what I understand.

It is similar to folding out of turn which can also bring a penalty if enforced.  Usually a dealer will let it slide once but if a player does it a second time he will get dinged.

 

1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

He indicated to the guy on his right he wasn't a threat in the hand. In essence he folded out of turn. He made the call for that guy easier.

OK, I get that.

What if Phil actually didn’t fold?

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1 minute ago, Nipsey said:

He'd still be a richard.

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

all that is fine, except in a multi player pot.

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1 minute ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

Because he lied? 

Im not trying to be dense here.  I just always thought the game was built around deceit.  Would PH still be wrong if he silently looked at his cards, frowned, and shook his head.  Or maybe sighed?  

Because it's not his turn to act. Putting false tells out there is one thing but he went way beyond that.

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15 minutes ago, T-shirt Ninja said:

I’ll bite.

Why can’t (or shouldn’t) you do what Phil Helmet did?

 

Specifically, here's why it matters in this hand.  You have to have a least a general understanding of poker and, more importantly, tournament poker, but I'll try to explain a little.

In tournament poker, once your chips are gone, you are out. In this position, the player with A9 had a small stack of chips (26k). Phil and the other player had significantly more (I think like 150k and 250k). 

The player with 26k is not a threat to either of them. Sure, its a decent number of chips, but if either lose to him, they are still in great shape. However, the two big stacks are definitely a threat to each other. They should and would be very careful about calling big bets against each other.

So, when A9 moved all in with his chips, part of his strategy there is to leverage the fact that the two big stacks have to worry about each other. The big stack who ended up calling may not have done so if he thinks Phil will also call or possibly reraise. Since Phil is supposed to act after him, he can't be sure and is more likely to fold as a result unless he's very strong (which he wasn't). But when Phil starts his rant, he now knows Phil is relatively weak and now decides it's worth the call to try and knock the player out. 

That completely kills the leverage the first player with A9 has and was likely banking on. It was a great play, especially with his hand. He prefers both players to fold but even if they don't, he has a decent shot to win. 

That's why you aren't supposed to discuss an ongoing hand nor act out of turn. You may influence a player to call or fold when they otherwise wouldn't.  That's why the rule is in place. If you are heads up, then it's fair game, but not with others in a pot.

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One last comment about it:

One of the most annoying things in a tournament when you have a decent sized stack is to have a small stack to your left. What that means is the small stack is a threat to push all their chips in at that stage of the tournament and you can't play any mediocre hands for a small amount because you need to fold when they move all in most of the time. Thus you have to fold more often or you bleed away chips unnecessarily.

It's an action killer and can be frustrating, especially if it's an aggressive player doing it enough. Sure, they'll eventually either bust out or they will double up and stop doing it, but until then it can be difficult to play in that spot.

I guarantee Phil was getting frustrated with that and that led to his rant and I'm sure there was an intentional component to it hoping the other guy calls to try and get him off the table.  Guarantee it. Phil isn't dumb and he knew exactly who was in that hand and who was left to act. Which is why what he did is definitely not cool in addition to being against the rules. It wasn't a mistake, IMO.

Edited by gianmarco
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Sick hand. I was hoping for Q-J-10 on the flop. :)

BTW, what's the deal with having to pay the waitresses when you're down to 10 people remaining? You'd think that the casino or the WSOP or ESPN would find a way to run a tab for these guys so it didn't look like they were in a cheap dive bar.

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5 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

what channel are you guys watching the final table on?  I can't find it on twitch or ESPN. 

 

5 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

what channel are you guys watching the final table on?  I can't find it on twitch or ESPN. 

ESPN just ended for the day. 

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21 minutes ago, Fat Drunk and Stupid said:

Ask him why he's in the HORSE event, since he sucks at everything other than hold'em, then consistently 3 bet him in razz for ####s and giggles.

Phil's actually really good at razz and mixed games.  His razz record lately is pretty sick.  

It's odd that the guy he played heads up against last night quit shoving all in and started playing Phil small ball with him. 

My first wsop cash was ten years ago in a horse.  Phil finished third in that.  I've never played with him. He's been at the next table several times. I would love to 3 bet him to death and get him to tilt.  

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14 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

I have dealt some charity poker events before and what Hellmuth did was wrong. As a dealer we would ask him to please stop since there are other people in the hand. If he didn't he would be given a 1 or 2 round penalty. 

Everyone did the right thing after, the guy asked Hellmuth to not do that again and Hellmuth realized he was wrong and may have cost the guy his tournament and offered to compensate. Doesn't seem to be a big deal. 

unless you are the one being eliminated from maybe one of your only lifetime chances at winning millions.....and do we really think 10 grand is that big of a "punishment" to Phil....

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38 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

not much of a punishment to Phil...

Not a punishment at all. But a cool thing to do in that situation.  It's not Phil's fault he's not called out on it.  A wsop official is always in that area.  

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41 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

Not a punishment at all. But a cool thing to do in that situation.  It's not Phil's fault he's not called out on it.  A wsop official is always in that area.  

I guess my thing is...no matter if he buys this guys entry fee for the next ten years....he still never gets this particular opportunity to win 8.8 million back...it is what it is...and the guy most likely wasn't going to win it all...but still...

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phil_hellmuth✔@phil_hellmuth

@JCamby33 I lost some sleep over my outburst. I believe you lose the hand anyway, but maybe I am wrong. You handled yourself well, and played well. As a gesture of goodwill, and because I respect policeman and firefighters: I’m going to buy you into 2019 $10,000 @WSOP Main Event

4:53 AM - Jul 8, 2018

 

so if Camby would have been humping it as a clerk at 7-11..or a truck driver.....he may have been SOL for next year....

this guy....:rolleyes:

Edited by Stinkin Ref
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2 hours ago, Stinkin Ref said:

unless you are the one being eliminated from maybe one of your only lifetime chances at winning millions.....and do we really think 10 grand is that big of a "punishment" to Phil....

Read the rest of the thread. 

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