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Mister Blutarsky: zero-point-zero.

Yeah, she sure zinged Trump.  That was a doozy. In the meantime, we get to keep a dangerously incompetent and historically corrupt president in office for two more years.  But wow what a burn.

If only there were some remedy available in situations where a President commits crimes... Mitch McConnell has destroyed a number of procedural norms for partisan gain, but he has not destroyed a

I know you’re upset Herb. But I still believe that the Democratic establishment remains the best way to prosperity for the largest number of Americans. 

Besides, the most important thing we can do is throw Trump out. If he loses badly in 2020 that is such a better result than if he is impeached. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

Hey now, as a mainstream Democrat I object. 

Object away. Your party is supposed to be a bulwark against the Trump-led demolition of everything this nation has ever stood for and they're rolling over like the house-trained dogs they are.

I'm having a bad day and dont usually get this reactionary, but seriously.  What weaklings.

IS ANYONE OF THESE "LEADERS" EVER GONNA DO THE RIGHT THING?

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24 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Come join us progressives :)

You’re far too reasonable to associate with the current state of the Republican Party and your assessment of the mainstream Democrats is accurate. 

Not to be snarky, and again, I'm in a terrible mood, but WTF have the progressives gotten done lately?

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Seems like a pretty shrewd stance. Unless there is pressing danger (knocks on wood), why not force Republicans to ride Trump into 2020? Trump is his own worse enemy, and investigations are bound to make him less electable in 2020. Unwinnable impeachment proceedings would only energize the far right.

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8 hours ago, JuniorNB said:

Yup. Why pursue an enormous feat like impeachment when you have absolutely no chance of winning. It's just going to motivate the Trump base with the election coming up. 

Franknbeans linked an Atlantic article back thread that was excellent.

Impeachment shouldn’t depend on a successful outcome. Impeachment should not be dependent on the political implications. Impeachment-the process-has value outside of its outcome.

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10 hours ago, Herb said:

This is horse ####. The Republicans are so compromised and morally bankrupt that they can't see past the toxic partisan treachery of their own leadership. 

And the M-F'in dems are so cowed by the right wing propaganda machine and the Trump base that they can't do what's right because politics. Cowards. Rank, spineless, useless wimps.

Our government is necrotic. It is consuming itself, ####ting out the remains of our once great nation onto our plates and expecting us to eat it and then politely ask for seconds.

F--- THAT.

McConnell and Pelosi can eat the ####. I'm done. Both of these "parties" are shirking their duty on an absolutely unparalleled scale and I want no part of it. I violated my own standards and voted straight Dem ticket in 2018 so something would be done about this travesty and I get this? A bunch of grandstanding stuffed suits collecting huge paychecks and mainlining intellectual and moral decay into the American system?

@ren hoek where do I sign up for the Anarchist party? Let's just burn it all down. I can't take it any more.

This is a pretty good preamble to accelerationism. It sounds like some of my friends.

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

I know you’re upset Herb. But I still believe that the Democratic establishment remains the best way to prosperity for the largest number of Americans. 

Besides, the most important thing we can do is throw Trump out. If he loses badly in 2020 that is such a better result than if he is impeached. 

I'll check back in when Berndog is the nominee.

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7 hours ago, Herb said:

Not to be snarky, and again, I'm in a terrible mood, but WTF have the progressives gotten done lately?

Han Solo never said that to the rebels.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

“He’s not worth it.” 

Even those of you who disagree with this decision should realize what a politically brilliant statement this is, and how it must be driving Trump crazy. 

Yeah, she sure zinged Trump.  That was a doozy.

In the meantime, we get to keep a dangerously incompetent and historically corrupt president in office for two more years.  But wow what a burn.

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, she sure zinged Trump.  That was a doozy.

In the meantime, we get to keep a dangerously incompetent and historically corrupt president in office for two more years.  But wow what a burn.

It’s much more than a burn. It’s a marginalization. 

As for your second point, surely you don’t believe that an impeachment of Donald Trump would have led to his removal? 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It’s much more than a burn. It’s a marginalization. 

As for your second point, surely you don’t believe that an impeachment of Donald Trump would have led to his removal? 

If it doesn't, I want every Senator that votes against removal to have that stain on their legacy for the rest of their lives. 

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It’s much more than a burn. It’s a marginalization. 

As for your second point, surely you don’t believe that an impeachment of Donald Trump would have led to his removal? 

Impeachment hearings can potentially move the needle on what's possible.  Maybe I'm naive on that one, but I don't agree with Pelosi's decision to not even try.

And I agree with fatguy and MT that if Senate Republicans are going to cover for Trump, we should make them actually do it.  Don't let them off the hook this easily.

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39 minutes ago, timschochet said:

“He’s not worth it.” 

Even those of you who disagree with this decision should realize what a politically brilliant statement this is, and how it must be driving Trump crazy. 

lol  You know it's driving him out of his mind. I bet he's tweeted "No President has ever been more worthy of impeachment than me!" about a dozen times and then backspaced. He's so torn inside.

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37 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, she sure zinged Trump.  That was a doozy.

In the meantime, we get to keep a dangerously incompetent and historically corrupt president in office for two more years.  But wow what a burn.

You think the Senate would vote Trump out if Pelosi started the impeachment process?

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25 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If it doesn't, I want every Senator that votes against removal to have that stain on their legacy for the rest of their lives. 

 

12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Impeachment hearings can potentially move the needle on what's possible.  Maybe I'm naive on that one, but I don't agree with Pelosi's decision to not even try.

And I agree with fatguy and MT that if Senate Republicans are going to cover for Trump, we should make them actually do it.  Don't let them off the hook this easily.

:goodposting:

God forbid we hold them accountable by doing the right thing rather than doing the thing that will help them keep their jobs.  I'm so tired of this crap.

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Impeachment hearings can potentially move the needle on what's possible.  Maybe I'm naive on that one, but I don't agree with Pelosi's decision to not even try.

And I agree with fatguy and MT that if Senate Republicans are going to cover for Trump, we should make them actually do it.  Don't let them off the hook this easily.

You do realize that Pelosi said 'at this time', right? She's not locked into thyat statement. We still have 80+ witnesses to testify before congress, plus the Mueller report.  If enough gets revealed that she thinks public outcry would force the Senate to stop protecting Trump, then she's 100% move forward with impeachment.

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10 hours ago, Shula-holic said:

This is a pretty big leap and I certainly don't ever forsee a scenario where he would spend the rest of his life in prison.  I was never a "lock her up" guy when it came to Hillary so I kind of view a lot of this kind of stuff as a political wish list from both sides more than factual.  If anything like this is proven, then we will see how it plays out.  But to name off those crimes, all of which are very serious and assume guilt is a pretty big leap whether you like the guy or not.  

But just take the one crime from my background I'm familiar with, tax evasion.  That's a pretty serious crime, ask Paul Manafort.  But here's the thing, nobody disputes Trump has been audited in the majority of all if not all tax years.  Is there some information that has suddenly come to light that would lead to a sudden tax evasion charge?  Maybe something such as a massive accounting fraud?  I'd think if that were the case in our politically charged environment you'd have a whistle blower by now.  I'm not sure given the IRS scrutiny he's been under on his taxes how anyone other than a politician trying to score points in front of a camera would believe this is a likely outcome at this point, at least on that charge.  There's a huge difference in tax avoidance, which he undeniably is pretty aggressive at, and tax evasion.  If that line had been crossed, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have already found that.

Just curious, I'm not an expert:  have you read the NY Times expose on how the Trump family built its fortune? Are you aware of the Trump Foundation fraud issues?  If so, could you give us your opinion on the criminal or other liability of his/his family's conduct as reported?

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

Probably 6

Impeachment proceedings, which would likely drag into election season and get laughed at by the senate, would invigorate the GOP base and practically guarantee it.

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I agree with those of you who are saying the Dems should impeach, but keep in mind that this wasn't a binding declaration or something. It's just a throwaway quote to a news organization, and one that probably will get more people to read an article about her that makes her look good and gets in a ton of shots at him. Even if she actually believes what she said Pelosi can still change her mind any time she wants, because there will always be new allegations of criminal/impeachable Trump conduct emerging.

Also I'm not sure I agree with all the people who say it would be politically damaging.  First, the GOP didn't pay a real price in 2000 when they impeached Clinton, and that was much flimsier and probably less popular. They won the 2000 presidential election despite running a relative newcomer against the sitting VP, lost 4 senate seats and basically broke even in the House.  Second, I think a lot of people don't understand or have lost track of the scope of Trump's criminal/corrupt actions due to Three Stooges Syndrome, and there's something to be said for a high profile proceeding that highlights all of them and requires him to mount an actual defense instead of just yelling about fake news and scapegoating minorities.

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

I know you’re upset Herb. But I still believe that the Democratic establishment remains the best way to prosperity for the largest number of Americans. 

Besides, the most important thing we can do is throw Trump out. If he loses badly in 2020 that is such a better result than if he is impeached. 

From a purely strategic standpoint impeaching trump would be really stupid. Better to wait it out and just dominate 2020 elections. 

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7 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I agree with those of you who are saying the Dems should impeach, but keep in mind that this wasn't a binding declaration or something. It's just a throwaway quote to a news organization, and one that gets them to read an article about her that makes her look good and gets in a ton of shots at him. Even if she actually believes what she said Pelosi can still change her mind any time she wants, because there will always be new allegations of criminal/impeachable Trump conduct emerging.

Also I'm not sure I agree with all the people who say it would be politically damaging.  First, the GOP didn't pay a real price in 2000 when they impeached Clinton, and that was much flimsier and probably less popular. They won the 2000 presidential election despite running a relative newcomer against the sitting VP, lost 4 senate seats and basically broke even in the House.  Second, I think a lot of people don't understand or have lost track of the scope of Trump's criminal/corrupt actions due to Three Stooges Syndrome, and there's something to be said for a high profile proceeding that highlights all of them and requires him to mount an actual defense instead of just yelling about fake news and scapegoating minorities.

And to add to this, why do I care if the shrinking GOP base gets upset by this?  At this point, it's down around the 30% mark right?  All 30% are voting for him regardless of any "facts" that ever come out.

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I agree here that impeachment is the wrong move. Like the Kavanaugh hearings it likely would devolve, and embolden his supporters. If even 10% of the stories we hear are true he never should have gotten the nomination- and even if it’s in hindsight he shouldn’t get it again, but here we are. Vote him out, or take back the senate, then move forward. 

Ideally the senate republicans would do their job and at the very least call the witnesses to find out what’s going on, but as I’ve said before, they’ve taken the money funneled into the Republican Party via the nra via Russia so they are covering their own asses as much as they cover trumps. 

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There’s some considerable subtlety and subtext there. For one Pelosi wasn’t going to fall into Trump’s auto news cycle. For another she specifically compared him to Watergate, and finally if and when the time comes if he can truly be impeached then he’ll be made to resign.

It’s funny what headlines do to perception.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Impeachment hearings can potentially move the needle on what's possible.  Maybe I'm naive on that one, but I don't agree with Pelosi's decision to not even try.

And I agree with fatguy and MT that if Senate Republicans are going to cover for Trump, we should make them actually do it.  Don't let them off the hook this easily.

There's no price for them to pay if the GOP Senators cover for Trump. They'll be lauded as heroes by Fox News, talk radio, and the rest of the right wing media. Any that go against Trump will need to start  thinking about what they plan to do after they lose their next primary. Maybe they'll be condemned for their moral failure in some history books written 60 years from now but in the present they'll benefit from sticking with Trump.

The blame goes to the MAGA hat wearing supporters of these pro-Trump politicians. The pols are just giving them what they want. 

OTOH do the Democrats need to do it anyway to keep their own team fired up? 

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1 minute ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It really shouldn’t be about team sports. It should be about having a functional constitutional democracy with proper checks on institutional corruption.

I agree it should be but it doesn't look like it is. The impeachment process seems like a useless relic that doesn't apply to the current times. 

Let's suppose for arguments sake that the Democrats impeach Trump and the Senate acquits him. Will the issue of whether or not Trump and his cronies should be prosecuted if he's defeated in 2020 come up in the Democratic primaries and general election? 

As much as I believe that Trump deserves to be prosecuted, that doesn't set a good precedent. Of course having a President that can't be indicted, can't be removed from office by impeachment, and can't be prosecuted after leaving office no matter what his crimes are seems sub-optimal as well.

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3 minutes ago, Insomniac said:

Will the issue of whether or not Trump and his cronies should be prosecuted if he's defeated in 2020 come up in the Democratic primaries and general election? 

I hope not. Impeachment is for politicians to decide. Indictment is not.

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3 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Just curious, I'm not an expert:  have you read the NY Times expose on how the Trump family built its fortune? Are you aware of the Trump Foundation fraud issues?  If so, could you give us your opinion on the criminal or other liability of his/his family's conduct as reported?

On the Trump Foundation claims I don't have an opinion.  It appears from that article that the NY AG has asked the IRS and Federal Elections Commission to investigate and that's pretty much where it stands.  There are some claims there but without evidence I don't know what happened.  

On the NY Times story, it's pretty long so if there's a specific thing you want to discuss I'll be glad to.  But a good deal of that piece focused on his father's estate.  First off, some of the claims were made by a guy named Dan Dorfman, who I always remember as a pump and dump type commentator on CNBC back in the 90's.  He's a pretty interesting character himself.  But the majority of the discussion appears to be based on tax shelters that others use.  I don't really think it's surprising that a wealthy family would use these instruments.  It did mention an IRS auditor made a small adjustment to the value of a building within the estate.  The article claims the buildings were worth more, and they may well have been.  But I'm not sure once the IRS has looked at something and passed it, what's to be done.

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

And to add to this, why do I care if the shrinking GOP base gets upset by this?  At this point, it's down around the 30% mark right?  All 30% are voting for him regardless of any "facts" that ever come out.

I agree you don't need to worry about the far right, but you also don't need to worry about keeping the far left satisfied. Neither is going to flip in 2020, regardless of what Congress does. The real battle is the middle 30%-40%, who seem to meander between 401K glee and repulsion with politics in general. I've given up trying to understand how this president has an approval north of 40%. For whatever reason, there seems to be a lot of apathy in spite of the glaring evidence of ongoing corruption. Personally, I just don't think a DOA impeachment proceeding is going to capture this population, because it will entail a ton of grandstanding that does not seem to resonate with that segment. OTOH, I think Trump is going to lose that segment on his own with the Wall and gutting healthcare - the 2 topics that drove 2018 results.   

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

“He’s not worth it.” 

Even those of you who disagree with this decision should realize what a politically brilliant statement this is, and how it must be driving Trump crazy. 

I'll give you the last part.  

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4 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

I agree with those of you who are saying the Dems should impeach, but keep in mind that this wasn't a binding declaration or something. It's just a throwaway quote to a news organization, and one that probably will get more people to read an article about her that makes her look good and gets in a ton of shots at him. Even if she actually believes what she said Pelosi can still change her mind any time she wants, because there will always be new allegations of criminal/impeachable Trump conduct emerging.

Also I'm not sure I agree with all the people who say it would be politically damaging.  First, the GOP didn't pay a real price in 2000 when they impeached Clinton, and that was much flimsier and probably less popular. They won the 2000 presidential election despite running a relative newcomer against the sitting VP, lost 4 senate seats and basically broke even in the House.  Second, I think a lot of people don't understand or have lost track of the scope of Trump's criminal/corrupt actions due to Three Stooges Syndrome, and there's something to be said for a high profile proceeding that highlights all of them and requires him to mount an actual defense instead of just yelling about fake news and scapegoating minorities.

The key is "unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan...." Now she's free to announce "As I said, I opposed an impeachment that would split the country.  But, the evidence provided by Mr. Mueller is so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan that I don't see any other choice. Only a purely partisan lackey could ignore this."

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Told by whom?

why would I know that ?

I said that's my guesses ........ if you don't think there are leaks and information spread at high Govt levels that's your choices.. 

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15 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Eight thousand lies.

Campaign finance crimes.

Imrpoper use of the pardon power.

Obstruction of justice.

Using the office for self-enrichment.

I would definitely add witness tampering or intimidation to this list 

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8 hours ago, Stealthycat said:
9 hours ago, The Commish said:

Told by whom?

why would I know that ?

I said that's my guesses ........ if you don't think there are leaks and information spread at high Govt levels that's your choices.. 

It's your conspiracy theory...just trying to understand it a bit more completely :shrug:

Sounds like you're still working out some details...good luck :thumbup: 

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