KCitons
Footballguy
Yes, I insist you pose the same question in the other thread. Same answers that apply there, apply here.
Do you think whatever is provided for $750 a day to immigrants, should be applied to homeless people as well?
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If the government paid you $750 per homeless person, per day. How many would you house, feed and clothe? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KCitons
- Start date
Do you think whatever is provided for $750 a day to immigrants, should be applied to homeless people as well?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I think KC might be taking you at bad faith with your questioning, that hasnt been my experience with you so in the effort to further the discussion I will answer for him and if he wants he can modify what I say.
For 750 a day you need to provide medical care. A climate controlled living space. Psychiatric care. At least a 5 minute shower daily. Schooling. Clothing. Food. Access to a private room to meet with an attorney when needed. You will be responsible for any legal actions taken against you. And almost unlimited access to playing Jenga, big blocks or small blocks, you can pick. Both if you are generous.
KCitons
Footballguy
Don't you have a new thread to start that chronicles your efforts to house the world for free.
As to the bolded, you don't know the reasons for my posting. Either show me proof of purpose, or shut up. (you've asked me to do the same towards you). That makes you a hypocrite.
moleculo
Footballguy
you did not answer the simple, direct question and therefore I am forced to assume you are not discussing in good faith.
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
WTF? I answered it. You didn't like the answer. (which is typical around here).
Do you spend $750 a day on you and your family to live comfortably?
moleculo
Footballguy
when I ask a simple, direct, relavant question, I expect an answer. Asking another question is not an answer. Here it is, one more time, in bold and red so you don't miss it:
what standard of care am I expected to provide for $750/day?
moleculo
Footballguy
I don't see an answer here. I see a statement about how phrasing the question doesn't matter, and then an attempt to change the topic. You aren't an easy person to have a discussion with.
KCitons
Footballguy
Food, clothing, shelter, healthcare. (do you need quantities of each for accounting purposes?)
Let's start there. Since homeless people may not need the same legal help as immigrants, we can divert that money to healthcare to address any mental health issues.
You will also need to either, take liability for any crimes committed while you are caring for these people, or provide a secure area until they are able to safely integrate with the rest of society.
moleculo
Footballguy
thank you. I had a whole thing written up about how I would buy a distressed hotel and put people up in mass (for a really, really nice profit margin, I might add), but if you are talking about in my home: I'd handle 2. more if they were married or with kids and could share a room. I have a basement with two guest rooms that could be completely walled off from the rest of the house, so that's no problem. health care is a non-issue - assuming they have no income, they can qualify for subsidized ACA or medicare or whatever it's called.
Would I do it for free? No. I'm not made of money. I live in a nice house and nice neighborhood but I don't have gobs of disposable income.
That being said, no way would I deprive anyone of basic rights such as sanitary aids, blankets, clothes, toothbrushes, water, etc. I'm not a monster.
KCitons
Footballguy
The one difference between immigrants and homeless people is that the homeless people are free to go out and do as they please (within the law). Immigrants are not allowed to leave the holding facilities. No security issues = greater profit.
I don't see a requirement to house these people in your home. The government is paying for minimal needs to be covered. Not emotional needs.
In the end the question I have, does it take less or more money per day to house, feed, secure, etc immigrants than it does our own homeless population?
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm not really concerned with how you see me but your motivations are crystal clear. There's a reason virtually no one is engaging you in an honest discussion in this thread and when the few that have did, it goes really wrong really fast. The results of this thread are all the "proof" I need. I don't think I have EVER asked you to "prove what I am talking about". That seems like a dumb request. I HAVE asked you to show me what I've said that makes you think I mean something. That doesn't go well either as its typically so twisted on your end it's not even close to correct and any attempt to clear it up is met with "nu uh....you meant X". Feel free to correct my assumption and clear it all up though. It will require retraction on comments like:
All of this is a complete false premise at worst....a completely uncorroborated broad brush assertion at best. You're convinced there is hypocrisy on this topic and the posts in this thread somehow prove it when comparing them to the other thread, yet that's completely devoid of reality. Three of the people who engaged you in this thread haven't even been in the other thread and the fourth answered the same in both threads. So it's one of two options that I can see. #1. You don't know what is required to come to the conclusion of hypocrisy or #2. You do know what it is and simply don't know how to provide actual evidence of your "feeling". A person answering here and not there is not hypocrisy. You making an assumption that people are ONLY taking in the homeless for the $ is not pointing out hypocrisy. It's pointing out that your assumption is 100% false as written.
So yeah, when you avoid responses or twist them all up I don't feel like I'm going out on a tiny twig here. Do I "know" 100% that you aren't trying to fit the data you are receiving into a preconceived notion you've already formed? Nope.....I'm good taking my chances with 99.9999999999999999999% certainty though.
KCitons
Footballguy
???
My purpose has been the same since the beginning. Nothing has changed.
The majority of the posters here complain about the conditions that immigrants have to endure. They complain about the amount of money ($750) being spent. What do we spend per day to help the homeless? You know, the people that have probably worked and paid taxes. Or those that have served in the military. We treat people from other countries better than we treat our own.
Even though you don't want to have a conversation with me, you keep initiating these discussions? You even feel the need to warn other posters to not discuss with me as well. Seems like you have a bigger issue with me than you do with any topic I may want to discuss. The same doesn't apply to other posters. (Henry being an example). Does that make you a hypocrite? Maybe not. But we aren't allowed to use other terms.
moleculo
Footballguy
(1) it's in the question title, GB. "1. How many homeless people in your own home?"
if you lift that requirement, I'd take 30+. no doubt. I'd quit my job today and get started on it. By math, I'd be looking at something like $430k per month with 30 people. Hell, drop it to $300/person/day and I'm in the green. but, I'm not going to take a loss - I'm not doing it for free.
(2) I'd assume it takes about the same. Basic human needs are the same, regardless if the guest hails from Detroit of Guatemala.
KCitons
Footballguy
My mistake. That's what I get for copy/paste.
You're one of the few that said they would do it for less than the $750. Which was my point about greed. If we are trying to make money, then what is an acceptable profit? Why is any number you suggest the right number if I want to be more profitable?
It probably means that we shouldn't be paying private companies to take care of immigrants. With the savings we could help the homeless population.
moleculo
Footballguy
WRT acceptable profit, different companies target different profit margins all the time. my company looks for 40-50 points of margin to move forward on a project. It's not worth the effort for less than that. Some companies work on a high volume/low margin basis, some target low volume, high margins. sometimes it varies by market segment, customers, etc, even within the same company. some products might be considered "strategic" where you will launch even at a loss (i.e. to take marketshare from a competitor, take a loss to guarantee sales for a higher profit product, etc). That's not greed, that's business.
If I was operating a homeless shelter and taking a loss every month, I wouldn't be a homeless shelter for very long - I'd be shutting the doors once the money ran out, and then everyone is on the streets...it doesn't matter how compassionate you are, if you are taking a loss you are hurting those you are trying to help.
KCitons
Footballguy
Apply this to companies running holding facilities on the border.
There is no discussion about what was asked of those companies. Were they told that they would have 100 people a week to process and now are being overrun with 200 people a week? When you have a influx like that, it effects the ability to adapt (and remain profitable). Maybe they had 150 toothbrushes each week to allow for a 50% increase. But the 100% increase has that surplus. The media, our politicians, and people here want to jump on that and make is sound like we are refusing to give immigrants a simple toothbrush, even though we are paying $750 per day per person.
When given a choice between operating at a loss and not providing a toothbrush, perhaps those companies had to chose the latter.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
If the homeless person is old enough I expect them to find a job eventually. Since they now have a home and some stability there is no reason for them not to be able to go out and find some kind of work. The ultimate goal is to get them on their feet and being able to support themselves.
The Commish
Footballguy
Some context for you though it's discussed in the homeless thread despite the claims we don't talk about homeless people....approx 25% of the homeless population is employed steadily. approx 40-60% are inconsistently employed. This later group is a group that can't hold a job because they don't have dependable transportation or their kid get sick and they miss work to take care of them, or they get sick themselves or a myriad of other reasons, so they get fired and have to find something else. Also, to rent a modest 2 bedroom place in this country the average person has to be making $21 an hour and that's just for rent...doesn't include electricity, gas etc. As you know, the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and the average hourly wage is just over $16 an hour. Simple math reveals one of the primary and most significant problems. But ask our politicians to raise minimum wage and it's like asking them to cut off their arm...can't do that. Those people need to get their #### together and get a better job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KCitons
Footballguy
$21 per hour x 2080 hours = $43,680 yrly. That comes out to $3640 per month before taxes.
According to this site, the national average for apartment rent is $1465 a month?
The math doesn't add up.
The Commish
Footballguy
This is my last post to you on well, anything, but I feel it necessary because this is the perfect example of why I take major issue with you. First, nowhere in my post was it limited to apartments, yet you site apartment rent only. Then you use $21 an hour when you should be using $16 an hour. I am confident you just read the first link you could find and ran in here to post. Your illustration has exactly ZERO in common with what you quoted. Rent is SIGNIFICANTLY inflated when it comes to houses that people are forced to rent because there aren't enough apartments. Excluding them completely changes the narrative and avoids the reality that these people face. Well done.
KCitons
Footballguy
BS.
Another example of you twisting things instead of admitting you were wrong.
You never said a house. You said a 2 bedroom place. And you said "in this country". Which doesn't lock you in to one area.
I'm sure a homeless person would be happy to live in an apartment, instead of a park bench. I didn't know they had to have a 4 bed, 2 bath ranch, near the beach.
You need to show links for your data. Otherwise, it's just you make things up.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
You know there are all kinds of different rental properties, right? Apartments, condos, townhouses, houses, cabins, trailers, "shouses" and so on.
The Commish
Footballguy
I intentionally left it at "place" for this very reason, but clearly he knows what I mean better than I do. The numbers are spot on and take into account all of the above. I did assistance help in this very arena for the better part of a decade, but let's be honest, I don't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows
The numbers are readily available for anyone interested in looking it up.....again just illustrating the long standing problem I have with people who insist on doing things like this. I wish it were just him, but it's not. The board is littered with this sort of nonsense.
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KCitons
Footballguy
I'm going to assume this is just trolling by both of you.
You used place and said that a person has to make $21 an hour just to cover rent.I intentionally left it at "place" for this very reason, but clearly he knows what I mean better than I do. The numbers are spot on and take into account all of the above. I did assistance help in this very arena for the better part of a decade, but let's be honest, I don't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows
The numbers are readily available for anyone interested in looking it up.....again just illustrating the long standing problem I have with people who insist on doing things like this. I wish it were just him, but it's not. The board is littered with this sort of nonsense.
If there are different places that a homeless person can live (apartment, condo, townhouse, yerts, etc) then they can find a place for less than $3640 per month for two bedrooms.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Why else would you support the idea that a homeless person needs to make $21 an hour to afford a 2 bedroom house, when they could put a roof over their head for much, much less.
Blows my mind that someone would say that and try to back it up. He went as far as to say:
Yes, it does.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Just enough to cover my own rent?
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Where did I show any support for that? I was just pointing out that you assumed he was talking about apartments.Why else would you support the idea that a homeless person needs to make $21 an hour to afford a 2 bedroom house, when they could put a roof over their head for much, much less.
Blows my mind that someone would say that and try to back it up. He went as far as to say:
Yes, it does.
KCitons
Footballguy
He didn't clarify apartment or home. But, I believe context matters. We are talking about homeless people. Do you think they would turn down an apartment because they'd rather have a home.
It's a stupid comment to make that a homeless person needs to make $21 a month to afford a 2 bedroom home. If he's the one that's been helping homeless people in his area, then I think we've identified part of the problem.
The Commish
Footballguy
Consider it a badge of honor that he is working this hard to twist your words into pretzels like he is. I don't understand what's in it for him, but it's certainly entertaining (in the most bizarre way ever) to watch. It seems to be completely lost on him that in a TON of instances, apartments and cheaper options aren't an option. There's study after study out there showing affordable housing to be at a premium and in a lot of cases, it's driving up the prices of said "affordable housing" making it less and less available. Trying to frame it as "derp derp derp....they aren't going to pass on an apartment to get a more expensive house" is yet more evidence that he doesn't understand the real life choices and situations these people face and are placed in. When you're in that situation you have two options, get more expensive housing or go without. If you go without, you're homeless. The other thing lost here is the understanding of the term "average" apparently and I don't have the desire to go through that fruitless effort. If he has issues with the numbers he can take it up from the federal government. Clearly they are lying to us all.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Why not link the numbers?I intentionally left it at "place" for this very reason, but clearly he knows what I mean better than I do. The numbers are spot on and take into account all of the above. I did assistance help in this very arena for the better part of a decade, but let's be honest, I don't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows
The numbers are readily available for anyone interested in looking it up.....again just illustrating the long standing problem I have with people who insist on doing things like this. I wish it were just him, but it's not. The board is littered with this sort of nonsense.
KCitons
Footballguy
I used the numbers you gave me. (To which you provided no links to your data)
I showed why the math doesnt work. Your only answer is that it doesnt work in your little corner of the world on a 2 bedroom house.
The I didnt make up the average rent for an apartment. We dont know where you got your stats.
KCitons
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Because this is such a hard problem to quantify the most legit numbers are a couple years old and I know he will ignore them all on that premise when every single indicator you can find current day is pointing towards a trend of being worse. So instead of having an honest discussion that this was something from 2017/18 and understanding it's trending for the worse, all I'll get in return is derp derp derp derp 2017/18 derp derp derp derp. I'm not interested
If he's genuinely interested he can educate himself by going to any number of sources like our federal government (US Health and Human Services), National Low Income Housing Coalition, Urban Institute, National Coalition for Homeless etc. It takes far less effort than what he's using to twist everything in these threads. This isn't a soundbyte topic where a single article is going to give you "the answer". It requires a desire to care and research. Clearly he's not into that given his "quote the first article that fits my narrative even though that's not the premise I am replying to" approach. WHen one is talking about all possible housing options (as you need to in conversations like this) and he replies with a "rebuttal" only focused on apartments thinking it's the same conversation, that tells me what I need to know. What I posted was the tippiest of the tip of the iceberg and we see the laziness in his approach to that. I don't have a shot of walking him through the whole matter in any meaningful way.
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Rattle and Hum
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
derp derp derp derpBecause this is such a hard problem to quantify the most legit numbers are a couple years old and I know he will ignore them all on that premise when every single indicator you can find current day is pointing towards a trend of being worse. So instead of having an honest discussion that this was something from 2017/18 and understanding it's trending for the worse, all I'll get in return is derp derp derp derp 2017/18 derp derp derp derp. I'm not interested
If he's genuinely interested he can educate himself by going to any number of sources like our federal government (US Health and Human Services), National Low Income Housing Coalition, Urban Institute, National Coalition for Homeless etc. It takes far less effort than what he's using to twist everything in these threads. This isn't a soundbyte topic where a single article is going to give you "the answer". It requires a desire to care and research. Clearly he's not into that given his "quote the first article that fits my narrative even though that's not the premise I am replying to" approach. WHen one is talking about all possible housing options (as you need to in conversations like this) and he replies with a "rebuttal" only focused on apartments thinking it's the same conversation, that tells me what I need to know. What I posted was the tippiest of the tip of the iceberg and we see the laziness in his approach to that. I don't have a shot of walking him through the whole matter in any meaningful way.
Seems you can site general specifics to everyone else that asks.
But for me, you don't think it's necessary.
It's pretty easy to find the information you stated.
Here's one
Here's another one.
Oh and here is one for 2019.
But this has nothing to do with our discussion. As those all clearly state that it's rental for a two bedroom home and not apartments. I'd really like to know why a homeless person can't live in an apartment?
derp, derp, derp, derp.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
No but I don’t think I’m equipped to house and rehabilitate an adult who is so disabled that they refuse to brush their teeth.
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KCitons
Footballguy
Exactly.
But the way things stand right now, we have people complaining about the lack of toothbrushes for immigrants. I know it's more than this. It's probably more due to overcrowding and greed. But, we aren't really fixing anything.
We use the $750 per day number, but don't really know what that cost encompasses. Is that just supplies that go directly to the people? Or does that include things like facility maintenance and payroll?
The whole idea of saying you could house someone for $750 a day, whether it's an immigrant or a homeless person is futile. But, I know we aren't spending enough on our own citizens. I've always been told to sweep my own porch.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I do think it's 2 different issues. The immigrants would mostly brush their teeth if given a toothbrush. Homeless people? I don't know. Some would. Some are too addicted or too mentally ill to take care of themselves. I just think it is odd how we could talk about paying people to house US citizens without money instead of just giving money to the citizens.
It most certainly covers payroll, building costs, etc. Still people are right when they point out the Hilton also covers those things when charging but is able to offerr incredible service. I would like to see a breakdown of where all the money is actually going, who is profiting, etc.
I saw this on Twitter and thought it was funny but there is some real truth to it as well
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I have no idea what is even real regard the homeless anymore. The data has so much variance. Is mental health care spending really a solid answer? I used to think so, but i read so much now about how the vast majority of homeless people arent just crazy people talking to light posts. So i think that money would probably be much better spent elsewhere first. I mean if we had unlimited dollars, sure. But we dont and i would much rather address 85% before going for the far more difficult 15%.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I think mental health also deals with addiction, depression, lack of basic personal/social skills.job skills, etc. Maybe mental-social health is a better term. In school, I deal with lots of kids who are likely to be at risk for homelessness and their just isn't enough servives to help them.
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