I just had a pretty big debate with my dad tonight about how local politics are so much more important that national politics. I still think that the president is extremely important. Especially when you compare someone who constantly divides people vs someone who unites people. Please note that I am not saying that Biden will unite people, just that I think that recent national politics have been very divisive.
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***Official 2020 Election General*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter hagmania
- Start date
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I think you're right, and I look forward to not having to hear about some awful thing the President did or said every ####### day.
Jayrod
Footballguy
OK, how is the average person who would have rioted if Trump won the election and is now throwing a party for Biden going to have a better life in 4 years from this single elected office? I mean across the board actual improvement in life?
Is it worth that drastic of a difference or is it really all "trumped" up outrage and joy over something that makes very little difference. I vote the later and it is how the politicians and the media want it. We make it a bigger deal than it really is and it is our own collective faults with social media and message boards and our stupid echo chambers.
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krista4
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
I appreciate your posts generally, but setting up a ridiculous false dichotomy like this isn't helpful.
Jayrod
Footballguy
By the President? Maybe for his wife and kids, but if you let whether the President is empathetic or not effect your day to day life, you have bigger problems.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Are you telling me there wouldn't have been riots if Trump won the election? Because that is exactly the world we have been living in for the past 9 months.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Maybe speak with a family member of one of the 230000+ people who've died from covid 19 for starters.
Just listened to Harris and Biden's speeches, after avoiding political speeches for over a decade. They're both good speakers, and they're both saying the right things to try and move us together, which is a huge change of pace. Granted, saying things and doing things are entirely different, and there's no guarantee that they can do it. What I do know is that I'm tired of the divisiveness and rhetoric. We are Americans, and we need to have each other's backs. Enough fighting, enough hatred. As Joe Biden said, it's time to heal.
Jayrod
Footballguy
How many died directly because of Trump? How many would any other leader have saved? I'll agree it isn't zero if you'll agree it isn't 230,000.
Again, another example of too much emphasis placed on one person in a democracy of the people, for the people and by the people.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I think perhaps her issue is that you used the phrase "average person" and then immediately juxtaposed it with the phrase "is now throwing a party."
edit: and if that's not krista's issue, I'll gladly co-opt it.
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krista4
Footballguy
I don't feel like you're reading the posts I made. If you're not going to engage in good faith, then that's OK, I guess.
Clearly I was referring to empathy from all of us, that whether we were personally directly affected by something wasn't the be-all for many of us who care about others.
Again, you're setting up a false dichotomy, by saying one either would have rioted or would have been sanguine. I don't feel like you're posting in good faith so will step out of discussion with you. It's a shame as I thought you were more reasonable than that, but maybe you're emotional right now for some reason. I wish you the best!
First off, I agree with Krista that this is a false dichotomy. I also think this shows how important the president can be. A change of president can unite people or it can be a source of civic disturbance. Figureheads can be important.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Dang, we're losing Jayrod.
Man In The Box
Footballguy
The anti-Trump rhetoric is 1000% earned and justified. He carried himself like an absolute tool for four years, and continues to do so in defeat. He needs to get gone. Period.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Well at least you aren't being condescending.
I guess I just misunderstood what you meant by false dichotomy.
Sorry, I'll let myself out because my point is also being missed.
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SWC
Bromigo
for starters any black american wont have a president calling white supremacists fine people or tacitly approving and emboldening racism but hey that’s just me talking take that to the bank brohans
Having a plan and sticking to it would have absolutely helped, neither of which are true with Trump. While a president doesn't wield much of a direct influence in day to day living, knowing they're actually doing work instead of golfing is a positive change. Now, Biden could absolutely screw this up somehow, but at least he's willing to try something other than "let the states do my job, no wait, time to reopen way too early."
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think the POTUS should represent or attitudes and emotions. Somebody who represents 100s of millions of people should care about and be able to emphasize with more than just his wife and kids.
TheMagus
Footballguy
Or listen to a non-white person who lives in this country and has had to live with divisive and insulting rhetoric on a daily basis from the leader of our country.
Or the proud people of Philadelphia (won't speak for other cities) who had the President of the United States calling their community a s-hole on a regular basis.
Trump made a lot of people feel bad.
moleculo
Footballguy
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
I won’t have to listen to a barely literate bigot speak for my country daily? That’s a a better life.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
The immigrant kids who've been separated from their parents.
The women he's called pigs, nasty, monsters in public discourse.
The farmers who've lost because of trade tarrifs with China.
All of us who will be stuck paying the debt resulting from his lousy tax policy and spending.
.....
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Capella
Footballguy
jhib
Footballguy
To be fair, Trump at least said similar words in his own victory speech. His way of speaking made them ring false to my ears at the time, but I imagine they sounded different depending on where one stood on his winning.
As an aside, it sure seemed like he stuck to his writers' words much more closely back then. Reading the words, he almost sounds downright humble.
https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-victory-speech/index.html
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moleculo
Footballguy
Consider this: as the head of state, the president represents you on the world stage. Over the past 4 years, he has ripped up treaties with Iran, backed out of trade deals with China, legitimized brutal dictators in North Korea, provided cover for a prince executingg a journalist, who knows what he has done with Russia, backed out of the Paris Accord. He has ruffled feathers with our friends in Mexico, Germany, France, and Canada. I'm not ok with any of that.
SWC
Bromigo
TheMagus
Footballguy
I can't even talk about the child separation thing because it makes me physically ill. I avoid all news on it but I think I read a headline that there were still 545 kids that had been retained in the US and the parents were deported and there was no way to re-unite them because they didn't think tracking such things was important. There are no words to describe the unnecessary human suffering.
To pile on... let's talk about career civil servants who either lost their jobs or were publicly shamed and ostracized because they didn't proclaim fealty to the president. Lt Col Vindman and Marie Yovanovitch come to mind.
moleculo
Footballguy
I looked at the fatality curve. Most places that managed the virus well had a symmetric curve - it goes down at the same pace it came up. I give Trump a pass for the first big peak in April, but not anything after that.
So - take the date of the peak. Look at the cumulative death on that date and double it. That's the number of "unpreventable" deaths. Subtract that from the current number, and that leaves the number of deaths that would not have happened with proper mitigation.
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To be fair I have a terrible memory. But I do seem to remember that was pretty good speech as well. The part you quoted is downright great. I wish he was making a similar concession speech now.
Well, Trump wants to put an end to obamacare. That affects a ton of people on both sides
And Trump has discussed taking money out of social security - That affects a ton of people on both sides
And there's the $15 minimum wage - that affects a ton of people on both sides.
That's a lot of impact.
moleculo
Footballguy
The April peak was April 21 (give or take). Culm deaths were ~50k. So, there's probably 100k deaths that happen regardless.
Actually, when I looked at it initially, I allowed that COVID doesn't go away completely. I think I allowed one death per million per day (I.e. worst case flu), or 330 deaths since then.
When I add all of that up, I came up with 60k (give or take) on Trump.
Thanks. Appreciate you showing your work. While I understand your reasoning, I think there are too many variables to blame it directly in Trump, even though I do agree that he could have done a better job at handling it.
gianmarco
Footballguy
This was what I was about to post.
Those of us that have the luxury of living our lives unaffected by the words and actions of the President would be well served to acknowledge that privilege. It doesn't exist for everyone.
And, as fellow citizens, I think we have an obligation to elect leaders that look out for ALL of us, not just some of us, particularly only those that support the current leaders.
There have been a lot of people hurt by this current administration by policies, actions, and even just words by tacitly encouraging others to behave poorly against others. Even worse, there have been more deaths than there should have been. That's why today is a big deal for lots of people around the country.
I'm fortunate enough that whoever the President is and whatever he/she along with the rest of the government do will minimally affect me, if at all. But that's not good enough. I also don't want to have to worry about changing the channel if the President happens to come on and is speaking because my 8 year old is around.
Today was a big day for a lot of people across this country. I really don't think some people truly realized the pain that was caused over these last 4 years for many people. I hope that ends soon for at least some.
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Every single blue state on the map, watch your ### for the next 2 months. Prepare for attempted cutoffs in federal funding and executive orders. Hell, he may try to give Arizona back to Mexico.
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
There is wiggle room for sure. My number would be for a hypothetical 100% effective president, which would be impossible. I don't think any president could prevent everything.
But still - we are one of the worst in the world still. Other places have had bigger spikes than we did (think high population density), but they ramped it down. We had a big spike, a second spike, and then a continual 1k deaths a day. It's bad.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
Lots of people have replied to this (and your other points) with examples irt the first sentence, so I wanna address the 2nd.
I agree that too much emphasis has been placed on the president. However, the current president has been the one most responsible for demanding that emphasis - at all times.
My personal celebration is less about about the importance of the president elect, and more about the de-emphasis of the current one. Sure, there is gonna be a party now and some crowing, but ...
... with some luck, we may be able to forget about our new president for a significant and substantial portion of the time. Hopefully, he will not demand the spotlight in all things; at all times. IF things can get more normal.
In this light, I agree with you 100%, and understand the current celebrations.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
I'd have wagered any personal celebration you ever have, regardless of reason, is more about the booze and Derby hats.
Illusions? Shattered.
moleculo
Footballguy
For literally 4 years, nearly every day I come home from work and my wife and I share "Trumpnews" - a daily breakdown of something ridiculous the president did or said or tweeted.
I expect that to still happen - Trump isn't going away, but it's so relieving that Trumpnews will be casual amusement instead of fearing for the future of our country.
I expect that to still happen - Trump isn't going away, but it's so relieving that Trumpnews will be casual amusement instead of fearing for the future of our country.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
jwb
Footballguy
The President affects the national mood. In fact, that's his most important job - to be a leader. It's a given that a lot of people won't like you. A true leader doesn't go out of his way to antagonize them. A true leader doesn't call people names.
Trump was terrible at this. He's not a leader. Instead, he caused chaos, throwing gas on every fire, time after time after time. And now he's going away. Good riddence.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Wait. You....you SMOKE the hats? It all makes so much more sense now!
Illusions? Restored.
TheMagus
Footballguy
Don't worry. Any positivity that Trump conveyed in his acceptance speech was quickly undone by his inauguration speech where I'm pretty certain he declared that the US had been decimated in prior years and painted it as a war zone.
To be fair (again), if he painted it as better than a war zone then his campaign slogan doesn't have the same ring. "Make America slightly better than it already is" is not nearly as good as "Make America great again".
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Brett Bair does a good job at 6:00 vs all other anchors in the 6-7 hours, I'm even including CBS, NBC, ABC tools on those networks.
I understand why folks don't always like him but he seems like the one guy who tries to be fair or not push it one or the other, he usually reads the "facts/info" as put out by both sides thru their media outlets. He quotes others is what I'm saying rather than inject a lot of personal opinion. I'm sure he's a staunch conservative but he allows for you to make up your own mind.
Fox is loaded with loons, I can't watch much they offer after about 7 at night. But the other cable networks have their own bonafide crazies at night so it evens out.
I have mostly stopped watching ALL News and I am trying to also stay off the internet sites I have been heavily into for a long time. Maybe I don't need to know every little breaking moment of nonsense. My life is much better when I focus on myself and not worry about the entire country and world. I now I can't be alone in that camp.
Last 6 months I have limited my news to less than a couple minutes a day, when others try and talk about what is current in the news I've been playing dumb or actually I guess I am ignorant to some of the opinions but who cares? You can't have your life dictated by TV and the news, it's a bad pool of energy to draw from.
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