Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Please join me in eliminating this word from the Shark Pool/Board


Recommended Posts

24 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I don’t walk on eggshells. 

But I also don’t live like I’m the only person that matters either. I have empathy. And while I don’t live on razor’s edge trying to avoid offense, I don’t disregard when I do overstep. I try to learn from those experiences. You’ll never avoid offending everyone: But that doesn’t give anyone license offensive either. 

So yes - we will definitely have to agree to entirely. disagree.

I hear you. I didn't say the bold though, so not sure why that was said. I was merely stating that a better solution would be to raise up the autistic child to understand that their value does not come from what people say or do. That's better for the child. Which is my concern. If they are raised up being taught to be offended by people's words or actions then they will not live a very peaceful life. You will not be the last person to say something offensive around this child. So the better solution is for us not to rely on people's words and actions for our value. That would be better for the child. Empathy is good, but you changing what you say is not going to help the child the next time someone says something offensive. Your solution seems a little self focused.

Edited by Mark Football
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

🤜🤛 

We're good, appreciate the kind words. 

The Shark Pool has been an incredible escape this year. I thought because I could absorb some of the posts that would be inevitable that I could make this work. Little did I know that Joe already covered this topic two years ago so I'm late to the party apparently. 

You did a ballsy thing and I appreciate it!! I didn’t know he had either. I’ll admit I was shocked you posted it when I saw it, knew you were going to get backlash. Like I said you have more balls then me. You hung your neck out there and by a lot of the responses even the ones disagreeing with you, you can see people respect you. You’re a great contributor here and I’ve always appreciated your input for the 16+ years I’ve been on here. I’ve been on here more then the 16 years of my current profile and have always respected you. 

Edited by whole-show
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Mark Football said:

I hear you. I didn't say the bold though, so not sure why that was said. I was merely stating that a better solution would be to raise up the autistic child to understand that their value does not come from what people say or do. That's better for the child. Which is my concern. If they are raised up being taught to be offended by people's words or actions then they will not live a very peaceful life. You will not be the last person to say something offensive around this child. So the better solution is for us not to rely on people's words and actions for our value. That would be better for the child. Empathy is good, but you changing what you say is not going to help the child the next time someone says something offensive. Your solution seems a little self focused.

I didn’t say it around the child.

I said it in front of the child’s mother; and only found out later through a mutual friend that 1. She had a child who had Down Syndrome, and 2. That what I’d said as a casual insult to a friend had  offended her. 

My solution is to change myself. Because that’s all that’s really in my power to change. I can have conversations with others about language & the things that offend others great and small, but at the end of the day I’m only in charge of one person. Me. 

So yes - it is self-focused. I will never again use a term that I know to be offensive. I know it is not only from that expedience, but from subsequently listening to the points of view of those who are offended by that specific language.

Just like I’m willing to listen to what @Ministry of Pain has to say on this subject. Now, the term “owner” might not be as universally reviled, but MoP also isn’t the only one to have expressed a desire to see change in how people describe their relationship with FF “assets” (for a still-problematic lack of a better term)

What I was addressing with my post was more to the generalization/sentiment of “you people get offended by everything and that’s why fun is dead!”.  I’m not saying you made this generalization, I’m just describing what I see from a certain “anti-PC” faction of society. 

there are degrees of offense taken just like there are degrees of offenses committed. All are worthy of discussion. Some discussion might influence others. Some discussion might simply reinforce what one already believes. 

For sure I can’t make you or anyone see this as i do, just as I can’t force anyone to change. People have to want to change. That involves sometimes dropping the casual [insert problematic offensiveness here] that we grew up with or were culturally desensitized to. 

So as a now 50 year old, I don’t leap to “man, you people are offended by everything!” and instead try to be more like “what might I be doing that's offensive?” I’m not perfect - I’m sure I offend people. I’m a very direct person. I swear like a truck driver & have a biting sense of humor - #### happens.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to be better. And part of the way I do that is by considering the sensitivities of others. I won’t always agree that it’s worth changing for (“owners” for example) but that doesn’t mean I won’t consider it, and I certainly won’t dismiss it as “just one more thing cancel culture is coming for”. 

Interesting subject for sure. I’m grateful to MoP for starting it, even if it has evolved a bit from the OP. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

So as a now 50 year old, I don’t leap to “man, you people are offended by everything!” and instead try to be more like “what might I be doing that's offensive?” I’m not perfect - I’m sure I offend people. I’m a very direct person. I swear like a truck driver & have a biting sense of humor - #### happens.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to be better. And part of the way I do that is by considering the sensitivities of others. I won’t always agree that it’s worth changing for (“owners” for example) but that doesn’t mean I won’t considering it or dismiss it as “just one more thing cancel culture is coming for”. 

Interesting subject for sure. I’m grateful to MoP for starting it, even if it has evolved a bit from the OP. 

Damn you sound like someone I want to hang out with lol, although I am A LOT younger then you at 47 😂.  Agree with you though  @Hot Sauce Guy 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I didn’t say it around the child.

I said it in front of the child’s mother; and only found out later through a mutual friend that 1. She had a child who had Down Syndrome, and 2. That what I’d said as a casual insult to a friend had  offended her. 

My solution is to change myself. Because that’s all that’s really in my power to change. I can have conversations with others about language & the things that offend others great and small, but at the end of the day I’m only in charge of one person. Me. 

So yes - it is self-focused. I will never again use a term that I know to be offensive. I know it is not only from that expedience, but from subsequently listening to the points of view of those who are offended by that specific language.

Just like I’m willing to listen to what @Ministry of Pain has to say on this subject. Now, the term “owner” might not be as universally reviled, but MoP also isn’t the only one to have expressed a desire to see change in how people describe their relationship with FF “assets” (for a still-problematic lack of a better term)

What I was addressing with my post was more to the generalization/sentiment of “you people get offended by everything and that’s why fun is dead!”.  I’m not saying you made this generalization, I’m just describing what I see from a certain “anti-PC” faction of society. 

there are degrees of offense taken just like there are degrees of offenses committed. All are worthy of discussion. Some discussion might influence others. Some discussion might simply reinforce what one already believes. 

For sure I can’t make you or anyone see this as i do, just as I can’t force anyone to change. People have to want to change. That involves sometimes dropping the casual [insert problematic offensiveness here] that we grew up with or were culturally desensitized to. 

So as a now 50 year old, I don’t leap to “man, you people are offended by everything!” and instead try to be more like “what might I be doing that's offensive?” I’m not perfect - I’m sure I offend people. I’m a very direct person. I swear like a truck driver & have a biting sense of humor - #### happens.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to be better. And part of the way I do that is by considering the sensitivities of others. I won’t always agree that it’s worth changing for (“owners” for example) but that doesn’t mean I won’t consider it, and I certainly won’t dismiss it as “just one more thing cancel culture is coming for”. 

Interesting subject for sure. I’m grateful to MoP for starting it, even if it has evolved a bit from the OP. 

Ok, change the word child from my previous post to mom. It is in the mom's best interest to not get her or her childs value from what people say or do. There is no peace in that. It's not healthy for her to be offended by what people say or do because that takes away from her peace and it's not good for her and she doesn't really need to be offended. At some point she was taught that "this" is offensive and she needs to be offended. She does not. None of us need to be offended. Not me not you not MoP not the mom or the child. It was taught to us. What I'm saying is let's re teach society to not be offended because we don't have to be. I am not anti PC, I am pro peace. If our solution to hate is to do/be better then our society will continue to struggle.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I didn’t say it around the child.

I said it in front of the child’s mother; and only found out later through a mutual friend that 1. She had a child who had Down Syndrome, and 2. That what I’d said as a casual insult to a friend had  offended her. 

My solution is to change myself. Because that’s all that’s really in my power to change. I can have conversations with others about language & the things that offend others great and small, but at the end of the day I’m only in charge of one person. Me. 

So yes - it is self-focused. I will never again use a term that I know to be offensive. I know it is not only from that expedience, but from subsequently listening to the points of view of those who are offended by that specific language.

Just like I’m willing to listen to what @Ministry of Pain has to say on this subject. Now, the term “owner” might not be as universally reviled, but MoP also isn’t the only one to have expressed a desire to see change in how people describe their relationship with FF “assets” (for a still-problematic lack of a better term)

What I was addressing with my post was more to the generalization/sentiment of “you people get offended by everything and that’s why fun is dead!”.  I’m not saying you made this generalization, I’m just describing what I see from a certain “anti-PC” faction of society. 

there are degrees of offense taken just like there are degrees of offenses committed. All are worthy of discussion. Some discussion might influence others. Some discussion might simply reinforce what one already believes. 

For sure I can’t make you or anyone see this as i do, just as I can’t force anyone to change. People have to want to change. That involves sometimes dropping the casual [insert problematic offensiveness here] that we grew up with or were culturally desensitized to. 

So as a now 50 year old, I don’t leap to “man, you people are offended by everything!” and instead try to be more like “what might I be doing that's offensive?” I’m not perfect - I’m sure I offend people. I’m a very direct person. I swear like a truck driver & have a biting sense of humor - #### happens.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to be better. And part of the way I do that is by considering the sensitivities of others. I won’t always agree that it’s worth changing for (“owners” for example) but that doesn’t mean I won’t consider it, and I certainly won’t dismiss it as “just one more thing cancel culture is coming for”. 

Interesting subject for sure. I’m grateful to MoP for starting it, even if it has evolved a bit from the OP. 

I like what @Mark Football is saying. Worrying about appeasement doesn't make the world a better place. You just won't be the one to hurt anybody's feelings. But its not fixing the problem tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

I like what @Mark Football is saying. Worrying about appeasement doesn't make the world a better place. You just won't be the one to hurt anybody's feelings. But its not fixing the problem tho.

But it’s fixing me. 

And if everyone worked on that, maybe the problem wouldn’t be a problem any more.

The focus shouldn’t be on avoiding hurting people’s feelings as you assert. It should be on avoiding being a person who is so insensitive to the feelings of others that they get trampled underfoot like an ant you don’t see while plodding down the sidewalk.

But again, that requires a desire to change oneself, and empathy for others to understand what is or isn’t offensive. And because so many of us are raised with such things environmentally, they're normalized. Which makes people blind to their own insensitivity.

which is one way to go through life. Just not the way I want to do so. :shrug: 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

The focus shouldn’t be on avoiding hurting people’s feelings as you assert. It should be on avoiding being a person who is so insensitive to the feelings of others that they get trampled underfoot like an ant you don’t see while plodding down the sidewalk.

But again, that requires a desire to change oneself, and empathy for others to understand what is or isn’t offensive. And because so many of us are raised with such things environmentally, they're normalized. Which makes people blind to their own insensitivity.

which is one way to go through life. Just not the way I want to do so. :shrug: 

You keep repeating stuff like "empathy for other people" and "desire to change oneself". If you really understood what @Mark Football was saying you would see those things apply exactly to what he is saying. But he doesn't feel the need to say these things because he is trying to make a rational argument while you apparently are trying to lecture people.

Edited by cloppbeast
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well we've pretty much wrung this rag.

It bothers some people - it doesn't make this type morally superior if they decide to stop using the term(s). But if it makes them feel better, then stop.

It doesn't bother some people - it doesn't make this type a racist or somehow otherwise "wrong" to continue using the term. Go ahead and keep using it.

Move along...

Edited by Andy Dufresne
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Well we've pretty much wrung this rag.

It bothers some people - it doesn't make this type morally superior if they decide to stop using the term(s). But if it makes them feel better, then stop.

It doesn't bother some people - it doesn't make this type a racist or somehow otherwise "wrong" to continue using the term. Go ahead and keep using it.

Move along...

You're indirectly raising a key point here that goes a long way toward explaining why threads like this go the way they do.

If your position is something like "This particular word rubs me the wrong way, for reasons that I know are my own; therefore I'm going to use to use different terminology and go on with my life" people will tend to listen, nod along, and then do their own thing.  That sort of discussion doesn't tend to generate a lot of heat.

On the other hand, if your position is "This particular word rubs me the wrong way, and I insist that everyone else yield to my idiosyncratic hang-ups" then you get this thread.  Nobody cares if a particular person flinches when they hear the word "own" or "bomb" or "Hail Mary" in this context.  It may be a little odd, but whatever.  The thing that tends to rub people the wrong way is when the speaker gets on his soapbox and starts picking at specks in other peoples' eyes.  Nobody likes a puritan.

(Edit: To clarify, obviously you're in the first category.  After all, you're not the one who decided to start a thread telling other people how to modify their language.)

Edited by IvanKaramazov
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

(Edit: To clarify, obviously you're in the first category.  After all, you're not the one who decided to start a thread telling other people how to modify their language.)

To be fair, I don't think MOP did either if one objectively reads his Page 1 posts on this subject.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simple solution.  It is not "real" so let people say whatever they want, be tolerant and not judge as it is fun for and entertainment.  Too much judging here for something that is not reality.

Since Fantasy Football is just in reality a group of 10-12 people in a made up league who put in a lineup and hope that whoever they choose on their roster that given day to score points for their team and have zero interaction and zero actual control with the actual players who cares what people say?

Now if anyone had actual control of these players I would totally agree, but that is not and will never be the case.

Edited by Summer Wheat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I'm not sure who "they" are, which is exactly the sweeping generalizations I'm referring to. As though there's a single group of PC police who have placed themselves in charge of ruining every bit of classic Americana you love. That's right wing media BS & I'm more sick of that than I am of any alleged PC cancellation culture. 

Take issues one at a time. Have mature discussions about them. Perhaps in time minds will be open to the idea of the meaningful change of which you speak. But that will never happen so long as folks look at it as one big issue and some nefarious group going around ruining your good time by banning a problematic book or complaining about FF terminology. 

We can look at the issue of whether or not calling a fantasy football enthusiast an "owner"  is problematic or not without shaking our collective fist at any perceived threat to cultural institutions. 

It's not a hard ask. Have discussions. Be specific. Show your work. 

I agree, but what if the "discussions or conversations" don`t go the way you want them to go?      What if most say 'Hey..this is really frivolous" in the big picture lets move on.  Then what, we just drop it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Simple solution.  It is not "real" so let people say whatever they want, be tolerant and not judge as it is fun for and entertainment.  Too much judging here for something that is not reality.

Since Fantasy Football is just in reality a group of 10-12 people in a made up league who put in a lineup and hope that whoever they choose on their roster that given day to score points for their team and have zero interaction and zero actual control with the actual players who cares what people say?

Now if anyone had actual control of these players I would totally agree, but that is not and will never be the case.

Where?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

You keep repeating stuff like "empathy for other people" and "desire to change oneself". If you really understood what @Mark Football was saying you would see those things apply exactly to what he is saying. But he doesn't feel the need to say these things because he is trying to make a rational argument while you apparently are trying to lecture people.

I’m not lecturing anyone. Mark football is saying things that I fundamentally disagree with. I think that not only is he completely wrong in that nihilistic approach, but that the world would be an absolutely disgusting place if everyone stopped being concerned with offending others and that it is the offended who owe the offender some kind of apology for making them feel bad for offending them. 

if you take that as lecturing, that’s on you. I’m speaking only for myself.

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

I agree, but what if the "discussions or conversations" don`t go the way you want them to go?      What if most say 'Hey..this is really frivolous" in the big picture lets move on.  Then what, we just drop it?

Sometimes, yeah. Like is said in another post, you can’t *make* someone change. they have to want to change.

and again, some issues might actually be frivolous.

That doesn’t mean being disrespectful to someone who raises the issue as so often happens these days. One can disagree with someone’s sensitivity without being dismissive of the concern or, bigger picture, without minimizing larger issues by lumping in their complaint as some part of a larger nefarious plot to ruin your fun. 

“First I couldn’t make black jokes, now I can’t even say “own” about my fantasy team. This damn cancel culture is killing everyone’s fun!”

The evolution of a segment of society to hate everything that involves empathy is a bad trend. Insulting those who take time to be concerned for others as “social justice warriors” as a pejorative has become mainstreamed.  These folks take the easy, lazy approach of “you’ll never avoid offending everyone so why try?”

I choose to take a different approach. To each their own. If you feel you need to keep the R word or the N word as part of your vocabulary once you’ve learned that they are offensive terms to others, that’s no longer being a byproduct of your environment, it’s a choice.  

And it’s different than the choice I would make. 
 

ETA: I’m not saying you do or don’t use those words. That’s merely an example of the “anything goes, it’s up to the offended to stop being offended by things” philosophy touted by some in here. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Sometimes, yeah. Like is said in another post, you can’t *make* someone change. they have to want to change.

and again, some issues might actually be frivolous.

That doesn’t mean being disrespectful to someone who raises the issue as so often happens these days. One can disagree with someone’s sensitivity without being dismissive of the concern. 

I agree, I am all for respecting real people in day to day life.  

I drafted and so call "own" Justin Herbert in my Dynasty league, a league of 12 people.   Although I will never actually meet him, or have any control over Herbert or anything he does in his real life I do own him in our little game that we play with my friends. I can bench, cut or trade him if I want to.    If Herbert has a great game he does not text me and ask if I am happy, nor do I text him.

If I trade him, cut him, or bash his play he will never know. In fact I can assure you that he has no idea that I own him in my league.  That is why most of this is frivolous.

I think that is where some miss the point.  This is not real.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

I agree, I am all for respecting real people in day to day life.  

I drafted and so call "own" Justin Herbert in my Dynasty league, a league of 12 people.   Although I will never actually meet him, or have any control over Herbert or anything he does in his real life I do own him in our little game that we play with my friends. I can bench, cut or trade him if I want to.    If Herbert has a great game he does not text me and ask if I am happy, nor do I text him.

If I trade him, cut him, or bash his play he will never know. In fact I can assure you that he has no idea that I own him in my league.  That is why most of this is frivolous.

I think that is where some miss the point.  This is not real.

And I’ve made it clear that on this particular issue, I agree. 

I had an open mind to the topic when it was first approached (after King’s article) and found his premise to be preposterous in the context he was applying it. 

the analogy was flawed and you could kinda tell he approached the entire premise believing FF was a white culture-centric game. I read the reactions of people & used their ideas about it to form (or validate) my own thoughts on the matter and dismissed it as someone chasing clout who was trying too hard to be offended by something. 

Taking a single issue and evaluating it seems to be a lost process these days. People are all or nothing about the idea of being offensive. I’m just saying we should look at issues independently. 

And even then sometimes we’ll disagree. But at least we will understand each other’s POV on a given subject.

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

10 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

I think that is where some miss the point.  This is not real.

True, FF isn’t real. I agree.

But the offense someone might take to you using those terms is real. 

So what’s the solution?

A. One can get angry because the other is offended & become a meme culture warrior, post a bunch of crying frogs and tell the offended party they’re a butter-soft crybaby.

B. One can try to look at it from their POV & have a discussion to learn why they find the term offensive. 

we’ve seen shades of both in response to this topic. 

At the end of the day the result may be the same & both parties may still disagree.  

But by taking the former approach, enemies are made, the offended party is “othered” and lumped in with a vague out group that “complains about everything”. 

By taking the latter approach, maybe bridges are built and the parties better understand each other. 

It’s not necessarily about agreeing or disagreeing that something is offensive, but how we choose to approach agreeing or disagreeing that matters.

This is something I’m still working on myself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I had a problem with the “R” word.

I’m a child of the 80s. We said R——-d as a casual insult like people say things today. 

But it was never ok. And as I grew from boyhood into a young man, old habits died hard. One day I really offended someone and I didn’t sleep for a week. I felt shame for my lack of empathy. But not just for the moment, but for the decade I’d used the word, wondering how many others I might have offended. 

Its never easy to own something you’ve done, and especially something that was all around you growing up. I don’t know why that word was thrown around so casually but it was in movies and other pop culture. It sounds crazy, but I’d never made the direct association between the insult with special needs kids. I certainly didn’t regard special needs kids with malice. 

It also sucks that it took a moment of deep, personal embarrassment for me at ~20 to realize why what I’d been saying for ~10 developmental years was horrible. But once I did, I vowed to never say the word again. And now I cringe when I hear others saying it. 

So I get it - I understand why people don’t want to be called out on something that may once have been acceptable but no longer is.  The deeper dive is that also extends to thinks like gay slurs or the N word. In some parts of the country that’s just part of daily talk. My ex is from Kentucky & used to talk about the yard talk with her uncles around the BBQ. Awful stuff to my ear, but when she was a kid that was just the language people use.  When the Internet exploded & connected everyone in a hurry, cultural differences between people in different states in a hurry. Suddenly you have mixes of cultures where things casually said in one place are considered horrific and cruel in another place. Online scolds show up in droves looking for clout & name and shame people (which, to @Concept Coop point is often post hoc) and it gives the impression that everyone is overly offended by everything. 

That’s a far cry from calling someone who manages a FF team and “owner”, but again - I won’t tell people what to get offended by. 

This was one of the words I had in mind. ####### was a clinical term before we decided it was too offensive to use. Was our sunsetting it actually productive? (Louis CK has a good bit on this.) I understand it was used as a slur,  but so have the replacements. And so will the words we replace them with. 

The N-word was always a slur. But was anyone helped by us deciding that negro was offensive? Or colored? Do any of us know why colored is offensive and person of color is not? Obviously these terms are offensive today and I’m not advocating for their use. But what good did it do us to add the negative connotations in the first place?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

This was one of the words I had in mind. ####### was a clinical term before we decided it was too offensive to use. Was our sunsetting it actually productive? (Louis CK has a good bit on this.) I understand it was used as a slur,  but so have the replacements. And so will the words we replace them with. 

The N-word was always a slur. But was anyone helped by us deciding that negro was offensive? Or colored? Do any of us know why colored is offensive and person of color is not? Obviously these terms are offensive today and I’m not advocating for their use. But what good did it do us to add the negative connotations in the first place?

This can be a whole new topic.  I help coach and have heard kids that are 13-14 yell at their friends "you are so mentally challenged"  They say it jokingly but I guess it is PC and more acceptable then calling them R.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This post I stumbled upon is why generationally we have lost our way.  

I don't think there is a single person here under the impression we own any of these multi-million dollar athletes.  If you are going to stake claim in anything it would be the berading of injured or underperforming players we should strive to do better with.  At the end of the day, saying I own him in a few leagues - would mean nothing to anyone unless you are trolling into some awkward argument.  

This is an awkward execution of some political agenda on a board mostly about a fake game.  There are countless charities and organizations you can volunteer at... this post won't better humanity and I am not sure what the angle is.  Yikes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

This can be a whole new topic.  I help coach and have heard kids that are 13-14 yell at their friends "you are so mentally challenged"  They say it jokingly but I guess it is PC and more acceptable then calling them R.

To you & @Concept Coop - a word change alone doesn’t fix the problem. Using the change (and new revisions as in the example above) as a teaching moment by the adult present so that maybe those kids can learn might help to fix the problem though.

I’m not advocating shaming them for it. Again, when I was a kid that word was used as an insult in movies, on television - the trend didn't start itself. I was inundated with the word and it was normalized. Just as the N-word was and is normalized in large parts of the country. (and let’s avoid the “but they use it in rap music” rabbit hole, because it’s disingenuous in context) 

The problem isn’t the R word itself. The problem is the lack of empathy kids have when using the R word. The lack of association, and using it synonymously with “stupid”.  So if the adult present uses that opportunity to teach kids to associate the word & those negative connotations with actual human beings, maybe they’ll choose to stop using the word in that context. 

or hey, maybe they’ll choose to continue to use the term, knowing it’s offensive.

But at least an inflection point was reached. A moment when the kids could decide if that’s who they wanted to be or not. And if some choose the better path, maybe they’ll become influential with their classmates. Certainly more influential and a softer approach than adults shaming them later in life for something they’d done for decades. Or in my case, shaming myself for it. 

Words do have power. Changing a word isn’t going to change the world. But changing how the world sees/uses a word might. 

This is all probably way deeper than this topic requires though.  and hey - maybe I’m blowing it by not seeing the power of the word “owner” in this context, making me a huge hypocrite. Life is challenging like that sometimes, or at least it should be. With things like this I appreciate the expression “ignorance is bliss” more - how simple life would be to never be concerned with the feelings of others.

That seems to be the desire of some in here. That just doesn’t work for me. My mother would never approve. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Just now, TVT 0 N S T A said:

This is an awkward execution of some political agenda on a board mostly about a fake game. 

or, maybe it’s a compassionate post by an empathetic person who thought it was the right idea & was brave enough to share those thoughts. As such perhaps we owe that person the basic respect of not being dismissive of their concern.

Far easier/lazier to assume it’s some broad agenda by an invisible hand to hurt your magical foozballl experience. 

That’s why QAnon is believed by millions. 

:doh: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

To you & @Concept Coop - a word change alone doesn’t fix the problem. Using the change (and new revisions as in the example above) as a teaching moment by the adult present so that maybe those kids can learn & help to fix the problem.

I’m not advocating shaming them for it. Again, when I was a kid that word was used as an insult in movies, on television - the trend didn't start itself. I was inundated with the word and it was normalized. Just as the N-word was and is normalized in large parts of the country. (and let’s avoid the “but they use it in rap music” rabbit hole, because it’s disingenuous in context) 

The problem isn’t the R word itself. The problem is the lack of empathy kids have when using the R word. The lack of association, and using it synonymously with “stupid”.  So if the adult present uses that opportunity to teach kids to associate the word & those negative connotations with actual human beings, maybe they’ll choose to stop using the word in that context. 

or hey, maybe they’ll choose to continue to use the term, knowing it’s offensive.

But at least an inflection point was reached. A moment when the kids could decide if that’s who they wanted to be or not. And if some choose the better path, maybe they’ll become influential with their classmates. Certainly more influential and a softer approach than adults shaming them later in life for something they’d done for decades. Or in my case, shaming myself for it. 

Words do have power. Changing a word isn’t going to change the world. But changing how the world sees/uses a word might. 

This is all probably way deeper than this topic requires though.  and hey - maybe I’m blowing it by not seeing the power of the word “owner” in this context, making me a huge hypocrite. Life is challenging like that sometimes, or at least it should be. With things like this I appreciate the expression “ignorance is bliss” more - how simple life would be to never be concerned with the feelings of others.

That seems to be the desire of some in here. That just doesn’t work for me. My mother would never approve. 

Kids adapt with the times.   We can try all we want to teach and I did that day.   Then they just go to dumb ### or another term for stupid.  Even though the person they are calling that is neither.   I grew up in the 90s and many time heard my friend call each other the R word, but I never have ever heard anyone call an actual mentally challenged person that. Words change and evolve and there will always be new terms of offend as well.   

Getting back to the OP.  After talking about real people in real life situations it does seem a little silly anyone cares what terms are used for FF players.

 

 

Edited by Summer Wheat
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

To you & @Concept Coop - a word change alone doesn’t fix the problem. Using the change (and new revisions as in the example above) as a teaching moment by the adult present so that maybe those kids can learn & help to fix the problem.

I’m not advocating shaming them for it. Again, when I was a kid that word was used as an insult in movies, on television - the trend didn't start itself. I was inundated with the word and it was normalized. Just as the N-word was and is normalized in large parts of the country.

The problem isn’t the R word itself. The problem is the lack of empathy kids have when using the R word. The lack of association, and using it synonymously with “stupid”.  So if the adult present uses that opportunity to teach kids to associate the word & those negative connotations with actual human beings, maybe they’ll choose to stop using the word in that context. 

or hey, maybe they’ll choose to continue to use the term, knowing it’s offensive.

I’m not really seeing an argument for blacklisting words once they have been used as a slur. Why can’t we have teaching moments based on the intent without demonizing the word altogether.

Stupid is a good example because it hasn’t been blacklisted yet, for whatever reason. It’s a synonym for #######, a very similar word. It too describes an intellectual handicap beyond a persons control. An awful slur, depending on context. Would it benefit anyone to campaign against its use, regardless of context? Would elevating it to the level ####### be at all productive? 

Edited by Concept Coop
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

I’m not really seeing an argument for blacklisting words once they have been used as a slur. Why can’t we have teaching moments based on the intent without demonizing the word altogether.

Stupid is a good example because it hasn’t been blacklisted yet, for whatever reason. It’s a synonym for #######, a very similar word. It too describes an intellectual handicap beyond a persons control. An awful slur, depending on context. Would it benefit anyone to campaign against its use, regardless of context? Would elevating it to the level ####### be at all productive? 

Ummm....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

9 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Stupid is a good example because it hasn’t been blacklisted yet, for whatever reason. It’s a synonym for #######, a very similar word.
 

 

Not sure I’m feeling you on this one. Stupid is not synonymous with the R word. It literally means the opposite of smart. It is synonymous with “unintelligent”. Still not a nice thing to say about someone, but I don’t agree with your comparison

On the other hand, dumb used to be used synonymously with stupid, but “dumb” refers to someone who can’t speak, so that was largely removed from polite conversation. 

“Dumb” is a good example of the things people used to say & no longer do. It takes time, but “blacklisting” a word can indeed be effective.  And the result today isn’t resentment that we can’t call someone “dumb”, but that we occasionally reflect on why we don’t call people dumb & potentially exercise empathy for those who can’t speak, who are clinically described as “dumb”. 

No one calls anyone “blind” or “deaf” as a pejorative. And I haven’t heard anyone call anyone “dumb” as an insult in years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Work just had a call where a Spanish person said it was racist to ask if they like spicy foods? And then a Jamaican lady said the same if you ask her if she can make jerk wings.  This thread reminds me about that.  Not everything has to be about race etc, especially when it’s coming with no Ill intent.  An Italian doesn’t get offended when you ask if they know how to make sauce.  Again the world is soft.  Even more so in 2020.  To each their own.  Doesn’t bother me either way.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Not sure I’m feeling you on this one. Stupid is not synonymous with the R word. It literally means the opposite of smart. It is synonymous with “unintelligent”. Still not a nice thing to say about someone, but I don’t agree with your comparison 

People with an IQ below 75 are considered to have an intellectual disability. Once known as mental retardation. 

Edited by Concept Coop
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

People with an IQ below 75 are considered to have an intellectual disability. Once known as mental retardation. 

Science advances. People develop new approaches. Definitions change. Now people with low IQ (or whatever aptitude test used) are referred to as having a developmental disability, a learning disability or often are diagnosed with some condition on the spectrum of autism. 

Unfortunately society is slower to adopt new terminology than science. 

That lag sometimes creates cultural issues in adapting to what are considered more appropriate, less offensive terms. 

And especially in the Internet age, where suddenly millions of people were connected from all sorts of cultural backgrounds.  To say that’s challenging would be an understatement.

I’m not saying I know the answers - I’m a hot sauce guy, not a sociologist. I’m just making observations & suggestions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Joe B is really frowning on its use around here is all I meant.

Weird - I wouldn’t speak for anyone on these subjects. How do you possibly know what Joe B thinks?

To this point this has been a very civil and interesting discussion. I would think that people “being cool” about such a difficult FF-related topic would be something Joe B would be smiling about. 

We’re like a bunch of little Fonzies up in here. 

:::pounds on jukebox, blueberry hill starts playing:::

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Weird - I wouldn’t speak for anyone on these subjects. How do you possibly know what Joe B thinks?

To this point this has been a very civil and interesting discussion. I would think that people “being cool” about such a difficult FF-related topic would be something Joe B would be smiling about. 

We’re like a bunch of little Fonzies up in here. 

:::pounds on jukebox, blueberry hill starts playing:::

He's been giving people short vacations for it. The word "stupid" I mean. I think he had a thread about it.

Edited by Andy Dufresne
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Gottabesweet said:

Work just had a call where a Spanish person said it was racist to ask if they like spicy foods? And then a Jamaican lady said the same if you ask her if she can make jerk wings.  This thread reminds me about that.  Not everything has to be about race etc, especially when it’s coming with no Ill intent.  An Italian doesn’t get offended when you ask if they know how to make sauce.  Again the world is soft.  Even more so in 2020.  To each their own.  Doesn’t bother me either way.  

But they’re right. It is racist to assume all Mexicans like spicy food.

and at the same time when I’m working my booth I *frequently* have customers say things like “man; I’m Mexican! Gimme the hottest you got!” when I ask them how hot they like their hot sauce. 

It’s a subtle difference. Someone from that culture might make a sweeping generalization about their own culture. That’s not the same as you making a sweeping generalization about their culture. 

Heck, there might even be a cultural pride for a person of Latin descent in being able to handle extremely spicy food. That still doesn’t make it ok for someone outside of their culture to assert that’s the case. 

many racial stereotypes have hints of truth to them, which is why we have this double edged sword of “who’s allowed” to use those terms or make those generalizations. Intent and context matter. 

my response to those customers is usually, “well I didn’t want to racially profile you”, and we share a laugh about it. And it’s also true.

And some Italians might get mad if you ask them if they know how to make sauce. And some might not.

None of this means the world is soft. It means we should collectively work on our approach to cultural differences and avoid making assumptions about people based on race or culture. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Science advances. People develop new approaches. Definitions change. Now people with low IQ (or whatever aptitude test used) are referred to as having a developmental disability, a learning disability or often are diagnosed with some condition on the spectrum of autism. 

Unfortunately society is slower to adopt new terminology than science. 

That lag sometimes creates cultural issues in adapting to what are considered more appropriate, less offensive terms. 

And especially in the Internet age, where suddenly millions of people were connected from all sorts of cultural backgrounds.  To say that’s challenging would be an understatement.

I’m not saying I know the answers - I’m a hot sauce guy, not a sociologist. I’m just making observations & suggestions. 

At the highest level, only the term changed. The different disabilities you mention still fall under the umbrella term “Intellectual Disabilities”. Stupid - greatly lacking intelligence - implies an intellectual disability. Or mental retardation. 

But if you don’t like stupid, we can use moron, imbecile, or idiot. All three were clinical terms, with more clinically specific definitions than #######. Would it benefit anyone to elevate them to the level of #######?

Edited by Concept Coop
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

At the highest level, only the term changed. The different disabilities you mention still fall under the umbrella term “Intellectual Disabilities”. Once called mental retardation. Stupid - greatly lacking intelligence - implies an intellectual disability. Or mental retardation. 

But if you don’t like stupid, we can use moron, imbecile, or idiot. All three were clinical terms, with more clinically specific definitions than #######. Would it benefit anyone to elevate them to the level of #######?

Maybe it’s not the word but the way people use the word.

Maybe we shouldn’t insult each other like that regardless of the word used.

that’s one idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Mark Football said:

Idk, it seems like your heart was in the right place and you weren't trying to offend anyone. I don't understand why we can't consider other people's motives before we get offended. That seems more like what someone would do who knows what healthy relationships look like. You felt bad for days, you shouldn't have, your heart was in the right place. The ofendee should lose sleep for days for judging your intentions and making you feel bad without even getting to know your heart.

I think this is a big disconnect with much of this issue.  As has been said many times on the side of don't use a certain word.......you need to look at it from the their perspective.  I understand that and it is true.  You should have an idea where the other perspective is coming from........However, this does go both ways.  If you are saying something and have no malice or prejudice or intent with the words then the other person should also try and see things from the speakers perspective and not jump down their throat when they obviously had no bad intentions and saying it innocently.  

 

The problem seems to be that too many things are becoming one sided where anybody can be offended by anything regardless of the intent or context of the words being used.  If everyone took a step back and realized that not everything has bad intentions and the intent of the words matters more than the words themselves it would help things be a lot less hostile.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Kevrunner said:

Older thread link, if anyone is interested in reading it.  

Using The Word Owner for Fantasy Teams

Wow Kev, 117 people out of about 180 votes, almost Two-Thirds could not be a more 180 from the few who agreed and supported it. That's pretty telling and I understand why Joe might not have been able to continue on with the narrative, look at the poll results? 

I sincerely understand that folks who use the term are more than likely not using it in any kind of negative way when they write or post it. 

I do like the stock market analogy and it has gotten my creativity flowing for a revamped Exploit/Avoid thread mixed with a stock market approach. Having "Shares" of Berkshire, I guess the Shark Pool can buy shares in say Aaron Rodgers, Inc? That makes a lot of sense. We need a Dow Jones 100...NFL 100 Index works.  Buying a player's production or stats seems logical. If you take Kamara No 2 overall, you're pretty heavily invested in him, right? 

There's a lot of good counterpoints that I read and I'm never afraid to acknowledge other viewpoints. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Gally said:

I think this is a big disconnect with much of this issue.  As has been said many times on the side of don't use a certain word.......you need to look at it from the their perspective.  I understand that and it is true.  You should have an idea where the other perspective is coming from........However, this does go both ways.  If you are saying something and have no malice or prejudice or intent with the words then the other person should also try and see things from the speakers perspective and not jump down their throat when they obviously had no bad intentions and saying it innocently.  

 

The problem seems to be that too many things are becoming one sided where anybody can be offended by anything regardless of the intent or context of the words being used.  If everyone took a step back and realized that not everything has bad intentions and the intent of the words matters more than the words themselves it would help things be a lot less hostile.  

Unless you know someone personally, it is a weak attempt at an online dig. I don't know any of you folks in real life. I would deny it even if I did XOXO. You are free to say anything that you like. I try to choose my words wisely, but that doesn't mean that I am not permitted to say them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
  • Create New...