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Reason For Hope (1 Viewer)

Moonlight

Moonlight

Footballguy
Maybe I'm being naïve but I've been grateful that our institutions have held fast during Trump's onslaught of them as he sought to corrupt and overturn the election. If the institutions and the checks and balances survive then  Democracy survives.

Trump probed them looking for weakness. He needed at least one court or judge to agree with him that the election was rigged or that there were numerous potential issues to warrant a delay. If he got one court, one secretary of state to go along with his BIG LIE that would give him legitimacy that he could use elsewhere to stall and create further chaos.

Republican and Democrat officials held true. Judges too.

Trump becoming increasingly desperate turned on his own Vice-President when Pence failed to go along with Trump's cockamamie claim that Pence could throw out electoral votes.

Those in Congress who voted against certification of the electoral votes will be looked down in history as being fearful and corrupted and choosing to kowtow for political gain.

 
All good thoughts. I really wonder what would have happened if the GOP had a large majority in both houses of Congress though. Glad we didn't have to find out. Ive seen a few people on the news lately that have seen other less than democratic countries make comments that we take our system for granted and that it really can come crumbling down pretty quickly. Thankful to those who stood up at all levels and did the right thing. Concerned to hear that some GOP house members voted against impeachment because they were scared for themselvrs and their families.

 
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic

 
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Referring to an election as “stolen” and inciting seditious insurrection because the governor of California tried to make it easier to vote during a pandemic?  That’s a definite threat to our republic.

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...


If the argument is that there's rampant corruption during an election; I can listen and sympathize. Corruption and cheating are wrong.  Republicans wanted to make people more uncomfortable voting during a pandemic....Democrats wanted to make people less uncomfortable voting during a pandemic.  To me, I'd want my Party to be the one that wants more Americans to vote. I don't really have much sympathy for Republicans if all they're complaining about is that it's unfair that Democrats wanted to make Americans more comfortable in voting during a pandemic.  Questions in regards to the voting process came up fairly early during the Pandemic....why weren't Republican politicans at the state level working OT in April and May to make sure Americans were given an opportunity to feel more comfortable in the voting process for the Fall?

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process
Click to expand...


The only reason the integrity of the election is in question by his supporters is because they believe Trump's baseless allegations.

Trump had his day in court to call things in question more than 60 times and lost them all.  He had his recounts, in some places multiple times.  Every allegation of widespread fraud made by he and his supporters were found to be false.  At that point a reasonable person would have conceded and work with the next administration for a peaceful transition of power.

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process
Click to expand...
This would have been true if that's what he had done. HOWEVER, he was wrong to call into question everything else. Allegations of fraud and fixed elections without proof of rules being bent and broken is the issue. 

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...
:goodposting:

Allowing more eligible voters to safely vote is a dire threat to our Republic. Congress should have thrown democracy out of the window and declared Donald J. Trump president for life.

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...
One side was trying to ensure that voters could engage in their right to vote safely. The other was trying to limit the vote as much as possible because the changing demographics in this country make it difficult for them to win a free and fair election otherwise. Not a new tactic at all as well. I think it's pretty clear who is on the side of right/wrong here.

 
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Shatner! said:
One side was trying to ensure that voters could engage in their right to vote safely. The other was trying to limit the vote as much as possible because the changing demographics in this country make it difficult for them to win a free and fair election otherwise. Not a new tactic at all as well. I think it's pretty clear who is on the side of right/wrong here.
Click to expand...
do you advocate bending/breaking election rules/restrictions/laws ?  

 
Stealthycat said:
do you advocate bending/breaking election rules/restrictions/laws ?  
Click to expand...
I advocate changing them through a legislative and / or judicial process and some flexibility in the face of a global pandemic. Ensuring people can exercise their right to vote safely in a global pandemic should have been supported universally by all parties. If the only way you can win an election is to suppress the vote, it's time to find better candidates with  a better message/ideas.

 
Thunderlips said:
why weren't Republican politicans at the state level working OT in April and May to make sure Americans were given an opportunity to feel more comfortable in the voting process for the Fall?
Click to expand...
I don't know that they weren't - there are rules and regulations and processes to follow - if those are all cast out the window, then so too is the integrity of the election

Does anyone think EVERY mail in ballot was verified as valid?  They checked names/signatures/etc for tens of millions of ballots ? I don't believe that - no way - it would have taken thousands of people pouring over each ballot weeks to verify signatures/names/information etc

 
Shatner! said:
I advocate changing them through a legislative and / or judicial process and some flexibility in the face of a global pandemic. Ensuring people can exercise their right to vote safely in a global pandemic should have been supported universally by all parties. If the only way you can win an election is to suppress the vote, it's time to find better candidates with  a better message/ideas.
Click to expand...
flexibility = not following the rules/laws/restrictions etc

gotcha - that's what I wanted to know. I think Democrats did that in 2020 marvelously and I think Republicans failed to match the bending/breaking "flexibility" 

 
I've thought a lot about election integrity - and honestly we need to double check every ballot cast to make sure its done legally in 2020 and that's going to take weeks but I see no other way to make sure ballots are real and valid

I don't think anyone would object to that would they? 

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...
Thinking CA was in play, are ya? And I have no problem with vote by mail ballots being made available to all registered voters in a pandemic.

Otherwise, the only fraud uncovered was for the loser.

 
Stealthycat said:
I've thought a lot about election integrity - and honestly we need to double check every ballot cast to make sure its done legally in 2020 and that's going to take weeks but I see no other way to make sure ballots are real and valid

I don't think anyone would object to that would they? 
Click to expand...
I would. I don't see a legitimate basis for having to do that. And I think any minor benefit is outweighed by the turmoil of delaying the transition between Trump and Biden. 

 
Zow said:
I would. I don't see a legitimate basis for having to do that. And I think any minor benefit is outweighed by the turmoil of delaying the transition between Trump and Biden. 
Click to expand...
How about prove it's not working first and then address it.

 
Zow said:
That works as well. 
Click to expand...
I think everybody is onboard with election integrity. It's actually pretty remarkable how clean our elections are based on all efforts to find fraud. Even fraudulent efforts to find fraud. The President and a long-stranding GOP Senator tried to bully election officials, in their own party, into manufacturing votes out of thin air. And the system held.

 
Stealthycat said:
I don't know that they weren't - there are rules and regulations and processes to follow - if those are all cast out the window, then so too is the integrity of the election

Does anyone think EVERY mail in ballot was verified as valid?  They checked names/signatures/etc for tens of millions of ballots ? I don't believe that - no way - it would have taken thousands of people pouring over each ballot weeks to verify signatures/names/information etc
Click to expand...


Did you want a delay in the certification....even to the point of pushing back the Innaguration?

 
just imagine in 2024 a GOP candidate rakes in 85-90 million votes on the back of 15-20 million mail in ballots

I can imagine everyone will wonder where those came from

maybe I'm wrong

 
Stealthycat said:
I don't know that they weren't - there are rules and regulations and processes to follow - if those are all cast out the window, then so too is the integrity of the election

Does anyone think EVERY mail in ballot was verified as valid?  They checked names/signatures/etc for tens of millions of ballots ? I don't believe that - no way - it would have taken thousands of people pouring over each ballot weeks to verify signatures/names/information etc
Click to expand...
There were all checked in the jurisdictions I am familiar with.  This is not done at the state level, it is done at the local level by the clerks.  So one person is not checking millions of ballots, the clerks in charge of their local elections are responsible for verifying voters in their jurisdictions.  See my long post in the "Healing" thread about my experience with the integrity of these clerks.  They check every absentee ballot against state signature databases.  If something doesn't match, they contact the voter to get it corrected (if there is time).  If an invalid ballot comes in on election day, it doesn't get counted.  They also check the ballots against death certificates in their jurisdiction to make sure dead people are not voting.

 
Thunderlips said:
Did you want a delay in the certification....even to the point of pushing back the Innaguration?
Click to expand...


I think we have to have a better system of voting, a better way in which everyone has faith in the system and people that didn't feel that in 2016 and people don't feel it in 2020 either

How to get there I'm uncertain 

good article to make people go hmmmmm

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-op-com-menge-mail-in-ballots-fraud-florida-20200416-hanmbneuendpbaftyktpactlga-story.html

how widespread could voter fraud be?  

Something has to change I think.

 
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Stealthycat said:
just imagine in 2024 a GOP candidate rakes in 85-90 million votes on the back of 15-20 million mail in ballots

I can imagine everyone will wonder where those came from

maybe I'm wrong
Click to expand...
In Florida, lots of older Cubans have been doing no excuse mail in ballots for years. They vote overwhelmingly Republican. No body questioned it, even before the pandemic. There may be isolated abuses, but nothing wide-spread has been presented. Ever. 

 
Stealthycat said:
just imagine in 2024 a GOP candidate rakes in 85-90 million votes on the back of 15-20 million mail in ballots

I can imagine everyone will wonder where those came from

maybe I'm wrong
Click to expand...
You would be - especially if Biden tweets and acts in similar fashion to how Trump did. 

 
Stealthycat said:
I've thought a lot about election integrity - and honestly we need to double check every ballot cast to make sure its done legally in 2020 and that's going to take weeks but I see no other way to make sure ballots are real and valid

I don't think anyone would object to that would they? 
Click to expand...
That's fine with me as long as the people requesting it are the people paying for it.

 
Moonlight said:
Maybe I'm being naïve but I've been grateful that our institutions have held fast during Trump's onslaught of them as he sought to corrupt and overturn the election. If the institutions and the checks and balances survive then  Democracy survives.

Trump probed them looking for weakness. He needed at least one court or judge to agree with him that the election was rigged or that there were numerous potential issues to warrant a delay. If he got one court, one secretary of state to go along with his BIG LIE that would give him legitimacy that he could use elsewhere to stall and create further chaos.

Republican and Democrat officials held true. Judges too.

Trump becoming increasingly desperate turned on his own Vice-President when Pence failed to go along with Trump's cockamamie claim that Pence could throw out electoral votes.

Those in Congress who voted against certification of the electoral votes will be looked down in history as being fearful and corrupted and choosing to kowtow for political gain.
Click to expand...
Agree and thank you

This is why I am not afraid of a conservative SCOTUS.  These are life-long public servants, not some cringy kink who walked in from the street.  While we may not agree with all of their political stances, they are some decent people with decent heads on their shoulders.

I also believe that our super elite rich overlords :tinfoilhat:  dont want a crazy SCOTUS.  Chaos and turmoil is bad for business.

 
Thunderlips said:
If the argument is that there's rampant corruption during an election; I can listen and sympathize. Corruption and cheating are wrong.  Republicans wanted to make people more uncomfortable voting during a pandemic....Democrats wanted to make people less uncomfortable voting during a pandemic.  To me, I'd want my Party to be the one that wants more Americans to vote. I don't really have much sympathy for Republicans if all they're complaining about is that it's unfair that Democrats wanted to make Americans more comfortable in voting during a pandemic.  Questions in regards to the voting process came up fairly early during the Pandemic....why weren't Republican politicans at the state level working OT in April and May to make sure Americans were given an opportunity to feel more comfortable in the voting process for the Fall?
Click to expand...
I dont agree with the broad stroke there, you may want to phrase that differently or you broadstroke a whole group of people that dont deserve it IMHO.

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"
Click to expand...
There's more to the story -- the absolute worst take I can see on this is that Newsom jumped the gun a bit:
 

Should vote-by-mail be permanent? (The Elk Grove Citizen, 1/8/2021)

Every voter in California received an official ballot in the mail prior to the 2020 general election, but this was nothing new for Elk Grove voters, who, along with the rest of Sacramento County voters, have been participating in this system since 2017.

The system, which encourages more vote-by-mail participation, was put in place statewide first through the signing of an executive order by Gov. Gavin Newsom and then through the passing of Assembly Bill 860, which sought to mitigate the risks of spreading the novel corornavirus during the election.

...

Before AB 860 had a chance to pass through the California Assembly and the California Senate, Newsom made the decision to sign an executive order mandating that every county in California mail out a ballot to all registered voters.

Assemblyman James Gallagher (R-Yuba City) and Assemblyman Kevin Kiley (R-Rocklin) filed a lawsuit challenging the authority of the governor to make and sign laws unilaterally.

“The governor, we believe, has not been abiding by our constitution, which is that the legislature gets to make the laws and the governor executes the laws,” Kiley said. “In a lot of cases this year, the governor has been making the laws himself and that’s the legislature’s job.

“That’s what the case is about, making sure he doesn’t continue to take power away from the legislature.”

Kiley, who voted yes on AB 860 when the bill came to a vote on the assembly floor, was not against the idea of having every voter receive a ballot by mail. Because of the threat that the COVID-19 pandemic posed, the idea made sense for Kiley, but what he did not like was the governor making decisions that are supposed to be up to the legislature.

Because AB 860 accomplished much of what Newsom’s executive order sought, the governor rescinded the executive order. Lawyers representing Newsom looked to have the case dismissed since, according to them, the rescinding of the executive order rendered the case moot.
Click to expand...

 
Stealthycat said:
I've thought a lot about election integrity - and honestly we need to double check every ballot cast to make sure its done legally in 2020 and that's going to take weeks but I see no other way to make sure ballots are real and valid

I don't think anyone would object to that would they? 
Click to expand...
This is already done. Balloting is not done in a black box.

 
To the OP, no offense, but you are naive.  The divide will continue to grow because the two sides of this coin will not try to understand the other side, and will continue to buy into the narrative that they are superior.....

If you think that the Dems are squeeky clean, and above corruption, you are completely naive.  And some of us don't buy the feel good crap they pedal.....it's for votes, period.

 
Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...
It's fine to "stand up" -- just respect the law while you're doing it. That used to be a Republican principle.

Storming the Capitol is not respecting the law.

Asking the Vice President to violate the Constitution is not respecting the law.

Telling rioters "We love you" and "You're special" after they killed a police officer is not respecting the law.

 
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Stealthycat said:
In a Republic not a Democracy, questions on election integrity should happen - Trump was right to call into question everything and all the rules that were bent and broken during the voting process (example, A California State Superior Court has ruled that Gov. Gavin Newsom abused his authority by issuing an executive order that required vote-by-mail ballots be sent to all registered voters, according to documents.

Sutter County Superior Court Judge Sarah Heckman’s ruling places a permanent injunction against the Governor that prevents him from changing existing state law, even during a pandemic.)

what Newsom did was beyond what he was supposed to - but he did it knowingly and only after the election did the judge say "hey wait a minute !!"

when Left stands up - its called bold and brave

when the Right stand up - its called corruption and a threat to our Republic
Click to expand...
I always wondered how Joe Biden won the state of California, which historically always goes to the Republican candidate for president.  Now we know.  
 

Thanks Stealy Cat!

 
Manster said:
To the OP, no offense, but you are naive.  The divide will continue to grow because the two sides of this coin will not try to understand the other side, and will continue to buy into the narrative that they are superior.....

If you think that the Dems are squeeky clean, and above corruption, you are completely naive.  And some of us don't buy the feel good crap they pedal.....it's for votes, period.
Click to expand...
Not sure I'd appreciate being called naive not once but twice in the same post.  Hardly the sort of thing you'd say to another FBG if you're in favor of healing and moving forward.

 
Sea Duck said:
It's fine to "stand up" -- just respect the law while you're doing it. That used to be a Republican principle.

Storming the Capitol is not respecting the law.

Asking the Vice President to violate the Constitution is not respecting the law.

Telling rioters "We love you" and "You're special" after the killed a police officer is not respecting the law.
Click to expand...
BUT SEA DUCK, BLM AND ANTIFA KILLED COPS THIS SUMMER!!11111

Oh, wait, no.......

 
Stealthycat said:
just imagine in 2024 a GOP candidate rakes in 85-90 million votes on the back of 15-20 million mail in ballots

I can imagine everyone will wonder where those came from

maybe I'm wrong
Click to expand...
So what exactly do you think happened with the mail in ballots? They were sent to registered voters and returned with signatures. How did the fraud you are picturing occur? You do realize that mail in ballots are not a new concept? Also that signature audits were done in some of the swing states with no discrepancies found?

 
General Malaise said:
Not sure I'd appreciate being called naive not once but twice in the same post.  Hardly the sort of thing you'd say to another FBG if you're in favor of healing and moving forward.
Click to expand...
I understand, but it's all about perspective.  From where I stand, I see no healing the way things are moving.....just my .02

 
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flat_earth said:
There were all checked in the jurisdictions I am familiar with.  This is not done at the state level, it is done at the local level by the clerks.  So one person is not checking millions of ballots, the clerks in charge of their local elections are responsible for verifying voters in their jurisdictions.  See my long post in the "Healing" thread about my experience with the integrity of these clerks.  They check every absentee ballot against state signature databases.  If something doesn't match, they contact the voter to get it corrected (if there is time).  If an invalid ballot comes in on election day, it doesn't get counted.  They also check the ballots against death certificates in their jurisdiction to make sure dead people are not voting.
Click to expand...
Exactly. There are receipts, plenty of receipts that validate a secure and fair election. How many re-counts did Georgia do? And this just in from Michigan.

https://twitter.com/JocelynBenson/status/1349742507018629122

Funny how no one can show receipts that there was fraud. 

 
Sea Duck said:
Not all of them are fishing. Some of them sincerely believe that storming the Capitol was somehow lawful. Others sincerely believe that it's OK to temporarily dismiss "law and order" as long as you have a good reason for doing it.
Click to expand...
There isn't "belief" in law and order....there is judgement or not.  It doesn't matter what they believe, it matters what the law says and it always matters what the law says.  It's not selective....are we to the point where "law and order" has lost all meaning too?  If yes, then that is INDEED fishing

 
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General Malaise said:
Disagree and think you can start by not calling people naive for having a different view than your own.
Click to expand...
Look around pal.....all these threads are essentially calling conservatives brain-dead idiots!  Cancel culture is coming full force baby! 

I blame trump for a lot of it....for making things more volatile....but the far left is emboldened to the point where we are going to see some extreme legislation presented....a new level of social control is what lies on the horizon.  

I only hope that out of all the extremes we are seeing, some kind of common sense......not based on the past, not based on fear, will shine through......I will not hold my breath....I will continue to raise my kids, and try to carve out my lil piece of the American dream......everything else will be noise, pretty much.

 
Manster said:
Look around pal.....all these threads are essentially calling conservatives brain-dead idiots!  Cancel culture is coming full force baby! 

I blame trump for a lot of it....for making things more volatile....but the far left is emboldened to the point where we are going to see some extreme legislation presented....a new level of social control is what lies on the horizon.  

I only hope that out of all the extremes we are seeing, some kind of common sense......not based on the past, not based on fear, will shine through......I will not hold my breath....I will continue to raise my kids, and try to carve out my lil piece of the American dream......everything else will be noise, pretty much.
Click to expand...
No, no they're not.  There is a difference between calling Trump and his loyalists the sorts of names you use above vs. calling conservatives the same.  Many liberals - myself included - don't lump in conservatives with Trumpists.  There's a difference.  

You blame Trump for the inflammatory rhetoric and rightfully so.  He's a cancerous tumor that needs to be removed so the country can heal.  Period.  Conservatives and Liberals can coexist.  Trump was neither.  He was a grifter who caught lightning in a bottle to win an election.  4 years later, the country voted overwhelmingly to go a different direction.  Thankfully.  

So, pout if you must, refuse to try and heal if that's what suits you.  Be angry at liberals if that helps you sleep at night.  I've been tap dancing since Nov. 4th and look forward to healing with those that want to heal.  If that ain't you, tough break, kudzoo. 

 
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JAA said:
I dont agree with the broad stroke there, you may want to phrase that differently or you broadstroke a whole group of people that dont deserve it IMHO.
Click to expand...
Less interested in accomodating voters who had concerns about their health and safety during an election?

I get what you're saying and agree with you.

 
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