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Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states (1 Viewer)

massraider

Footballguy
Washington (CNN)Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw efforts in December 2020 to put forward illegitimate electors from seven states that Trump lost, according to three sources with direct knowledge of the scheme.

The sources said members of former President Donald Trump's campaign team were far more involved than previously known in the plan, a core tenet of the broader plot to overturn President Joe Biden's victory when Congress counted the electoral votes on January 6.

Giuliani and his allies coordinated the nuts-and-bolts of the process on a state-by-state level, the sources told CNN. One source said there were multiple planning calls between Trump campaign officials and GOP state operatives, and that Giuliani participated in at least one call. The source also said the Trump campaign lined up supporters to fill elector slots, secured meeting rooms in statehouses for the fake electors to meet on December 14, 2020, and circulated drafts of fake certificates that were ultimately sent to the National Archives.

Trump and some of his top advisers publicly encouraged the "alternate electors" scheme in Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico. But behind the scenes, Giuliani and Trump campaign officials actively choreographed the process, the sources said.

One fake elector from Michigan boasted at a recent event hosted by a local Republican organization that the Trump campaign directed the entire operation.

"We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked us to do that," Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party, said at a public event last week that was organized by the conservative group Stand Up Michigan, according to a recording obtained by CNN.

Maddock was also one of the 16 Trump supporters from Michigan who served as fake electors and signed the illegitimate certificate that was sent to the National Archives.

"It was Rudy and these misfit characters who started calling the shots," a former Trump campaign staffer said. "The campaign was throwing enough ##### at the wall to see what would stick."

The scheme was integral to Trump's plan to get then-Vice President Mike Pence to throw out Biden's electors and replace them with the GOP electors on January 6 when Congress counted the electoral votes. It has also come under renewed scrutiny by the January 6 select committee and state attorneys general, raising questions about the involvement of Trump's campaign and whether any laws were broken.

Committee chairman Rep. Bennie Thompson of Mississippi told reporters Thursday the panel is looking into whether there was a broader conspiracy or involvement from the Trump White House in the creation or submission of these fake electors.

"That's a concern" Thompson said.

In its subpoena letter sent to Giuliani on Tuesday, the House committee specifically references his efforts to convince state legislatures to overturn election results. The document cites Giuliani's comments from December 2020 in which he publicly urged lawmakers in Michigan to award the state's electoral votes to Trump.

One of the pro-Trump electors from Pennsylvania, Sam DeMarco, told CNN there was a last-minute dispute, where the state's GOP electors pushed Trump campaign officials to add legal caveats to the fake certificate to say they were only electors-in-waiting, if Trump's legal challenges prevailed.

The fake documents from Pennsylvania and New Mexico ultimately contained these caveats, but the documents from the other five states explicitly claimed, falsely, that the pro-Trump electors were the rightful electors.

It's not clear that any of the fake electors themselves participated in strategy sessions with top Trump campaign brass. But both Maddock from Michigan and DeMarco from Pennsylvania have said they were in direct contact with members of the Trump campaign.

Many of the players involved in the scheme, including Maddock, stand by their actions and are still pushing the lie that the 2020 election was stolen. Giuliani, a Trump spokesperson and a representative from Stand Up Michigan did not respond to CNN's requests for comment.

Advancing the lie that the election was stolen

After Trump failed to stop battleground states from certifying Biden's victory, Trump campaign officials, led by Giuliani, launched its parallel effort to disrupt and undermine the Electoral College process. This included publicly promoting false claims of fraud, while quietly exploring the fast-diminishing avenues to overturn the results.

Trump hoped Republican legislators from the seven battleground states would replace Biden's authentic electors with the rogue GOP slate, and that Pence would seat those electors during the joint session of Congress on January 6.

A source familiar with the situation told CNN that Pence was concerned about the possibility of "alternate electors," and his team carefully worded what he said that day during the Electoral College certification to recognize only the legitimate electors.

One of the sources with direct knowledge of the scheme, a former Trump campaign staffer, told CNN that Giuliani worked closely on the seven-state stunt with Christina Bobb, a correspondent for the pro-Trump propaganda network One America News.

Many of Giuliani's unhinged conspiracies about the 2020 election found a home at OAN. And in a deposition last year as part of a civil lawsuit, Giuliani said Bobb was "very active in gathering evidence" as "part of the legal team" working for Trump's campaign during the presidential transition.

Bobb reached out to a top Arizona legislator about supposed voter fraud, according to emails obtained by the government oversight group American Oversight through a public records request. In the December 4, 2020, email Bobb said she was sending the message on Giuliani's behalf. The emails flesh out how Trump's team was trying to press state legislatures to overturn the results.

Bobb didn't respond to messages seeking comment about the pro-Trump electors.

"They were all working together. Rudy, John Eastman, and Christina Bobb, in tandem, to create this coverage for OAN, to advance the Big Lie," the former Trump campaign staffer told CNN.

While mainstream news outlets covered the Electoral College proceedings, which cemented Biden's position as President-elect, OAN focused on the rogue electors and voter fraud myths.

The Washington Post first reported new details about the role of Giuliani and Bobb.

Battleground Michigan

Republicans in Michigan were central to the effort to try and overturn the election results and Meshawn Maddock -- along with her husband State Rep. Matt Maddock -- were instrumental to the effort inside the state.

The Maddocks have deep ties to Trump. The former president has endorsed Matt Maddock in his bid to be Michigan House leader. Maddock tweeted a photo last year of an article written about his campaign that Trump had signed, and added, "Matt, I am with you all the way."

In the months leading up to January 6, Matt Maddock consistently pushed Trump's lie about the election. In early December 2020, Matt Maddock and other state GOP lawmakers in Michigan held a series of hearings seeking to validate unfounded claims of widespread voter fraud -- prompting a personal visit from Giuliani.

When the effort to convince state legislators in Michigan to block Biden's electors ultimately failed, Maddock was among the GOP lawmakers from five states who sent a letter to Pence on January 5, urging him to delay certification of the electoral votes. Pence refused to go along with the plan.

Meshawn Maddock is equally close to Trump and is still peddling the lie that the election was stolen.

Along with being an elector, she also helped organize buses to take GOP activists to Washington for protests around January 6 and took part in the march to the US Capitol. She later disavowed the violence that came after the march.

Maddock was named co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party one month after January 6. But as she is gaining prominence, her role as a fake elector is also attracting legal scrutiny.

"Under state law, I think clearly you have forgery of a public record, which is a 14-year offense, and election law forgery, which is a five-year offense," Michigan Attorney general Dana Nessel, a Democrat, told MSNBC last week, about the fake certificates signed by pro-Trump electors.

No one, including Meshawn Maddock, has been charged with any crimes related to the scheme.

"This is nothing more than political prosecution of convenience led by Dana Nessel," said Gustavo Portela, MIGOP Communications Director, when asked about Maddock's comments and role as a fake elector.

Hedged language in Pennsylvania

The documents from Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin and Nevada explicitly stated, falsely, that the GOP electors were the rightful electors, representing 59 electoral votes.

But the documents from Pennsylvania and New Mexico contained clauses saying that the Trump supporters were electors-in-waiting, in case a court or some other proceeding later ruled that they were the "duly elected and qualified electors."

If anything, this provided a veneer of legal protection for Trump supporters who were trying to exploit the Electoral College process to overturn an election.

Demarco, who was one of the state's pro-Trump electors, and is the chairman of the Allegheny County Republican Committee, told CNN he and other alternate electors signed the certificate at the Trump campaign's request but first demanded the language be changed to make clear it was not intended to contest the will of voters in that state who voted for Biden.

The hedging language was included at the last moment as the Trump campaign had concerns, and questioned whether the change was appropriate in the immediate lead-up to December 14, according to a Trump campaign staffer with knowledge of the matter.

Ultimately the Trump campaign acquiesced. But the internal debate shows that even some of Trump's strongest allies were concerned about the attempts to overturn the 2020 election.

The office of Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, a Democrat, said in a statement that they looked into the matter but concluded that the fake certificate was not an illegal forgery.

"These 'fake ballots' included a conditional clause that they were only to be used if a court overturned the results in Pennsylvania, which did not happen," the statement said. "Though their rhetoric and policy were intentionally misleading and purposefully damaging to our democracy, based on our initial review, our office does not believe this meets the legal standards for forgery."

Concerns about democracy

Democratic lawmakers, state officials, and Biden himself have roundly condemned the fake electors plot. Biden brought it up at a news conference Wednesday when asked about his stalled voting-rights bills in Congress.

"I never thought we would get into a place where we were talking about... what they tried to do this last time out -- Send different electors to the state legislative bodies to represent who won the election, saying that I didn't win but the Republican candidate won," Biden said. "I doubt that anyone thought that would happen in America in the 21st century, but it is happening."

The coordinated nature of these fake elector efforts and the rising power of Big Lie-promoters in Republican circles has concerned voting rights organizations across the country.

Nancy Wang, executive director of the Michigan-based Voters Not Politicians, said her group was founded in 2016 to address redistricting and voting access, but Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election spurred her group to focus on countering anti-democratic efforts at large.

"This is existential. This about the very fundamental institutions of our government - whether we can vote at all, whether we have any power whatsoever," Wang said. "It is a completely different time that we are facing in 2020 and 2022. It really feels urgent. It is a battle of a completely different kind. It is massive, it is coordinated at a national level. It is much more threatening."

 

Ruffrodys05

IBL Representative
I'd like to read a non-biased reporting on all that - CNN can never, ever be trusted, they are the Anti-Trump News Network
CNN's reporting aside, do you deny that these forged documents exist? Are these documents imaginary?  Remember, there have been numerous articles and reports regarding these documents.....numerous witnesses have acknowledged their existence, including the National Archives. Why do you think that is?

 

McBokonon

YOI!!!
"We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked us to do that," Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party, said at a public event last week that was organized by the conservative group Stand Up Michigan, according to a recording obtained by CNN.
Obviously, Trump supporters will ignore, deflect, whatabout, bothsides, and/or downplay this. But the bolded is a great example of why most conspiracy theories simply aren’t realistic - once you start operationalizing the theory, you realize it would take a lot of people to pull it off, and people can’t shut the #### up about it, especially when they feel like a special person that was part of a secret and important plot. We’re all basically Dustin Hoffman from Wag the Dog.

Conrad 'Connie' Brean : Stanley, don't do this. You're playing with your life here.

Stanley Motss : #### my life! I want the credit.

 
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sho nuff

Footballguy
Id love to see more dug into this outside of CNN...but there are plenty of articles out about the fake electors outside of CNN too.  Seeing Rudy's involvement will come out soon enough it seems.  At a minimum...these state level people should be up the creek.

 

moleculo

Footballguy
In the 200+ year history of presidential elections, has anyone tried the "alternate elector" approach before? 

 
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GordonGekko

Footballguy
Washington (CNN)Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw efforts in December 2020 to put forward illegitimate electors from seven states that Trump lost, according to three sources with direct knowledge of the scheme.

Trump and some of his top advisers publicly encouraged the "alternate electors" scheme in Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico.


Direct Headline: The Electoral College should be eliminated

Twelve Democratic presidential candidates have explicitly called for the abolition of the Electoral College, while five others have said they are open to the idea...Some, like Sen. Elizabeth Warren, said they would back a constitutional amendment....Still others, like South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg, called the Electoral College “undemocratic,” but hasn’t been clear on how he would repeal the system...Four Democrats said they are open to abolishing the system but didn’t explicitly back doing so. Sen. Kamala Harris said she’s "open to the discussion," while Sen. Bernie Sanders said it’s “hard to defend the current system”

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/elections/electoral-college/

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
CHIAFALO ET AL. v. WASHINGTON

CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF WASHINGTON
No. 19–465. Argued May 13, 2020—Decided July 6, 2020

“A State may enforce an elector’s pledge to support his party’s nominee—and the state voters’ choice—for President. … Electors are not free agents; they are to vote for the candidate whom the State’s voters have chosen.”

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/19-465_i425.pdf

1948 Democratic Convention

Nearly two weeks after the convention, the president issued executive orders mandating equal opportunity in the armed forces and in the federal civil service. Outraged segregationists moved ahead with the formation of a States' Rights ("Dixiecrat") Party with Gov. Strom Thurmond of South Carolina as its presidential candidate...In the meantime, Thurmond, winning four states and 39 electoral votes, had fired a telling shot across the Democrats' bow.

Alonzo L. Hamby August 2008

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/1948-democratic-convention-878284/

U.S. Supreme Court

Ray v. Blair, 343 U.S. 214 (1952)

No. 649 Argued March 31, 1952 Decided April 3, 1952

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/343/214/

Direct Headline: Five Quotes From Joe Biden’s Eulogy of Famed Republican Racist Strom Thurmond

"Strom Thurmond was also a brave man, who in the end made his choice and moved to the good side. I disagreed deeply with Strom on the issue of civil rights and on many other issues, but I watched him change. We became good friends."...1973 Joe Biden would be stunned to hear that he “disagreed deeply” with Strom on the issue of civil rights given that 1973 and 1974 Biden consistently voted against bills that would have integrated schools. He even used the same “forced busing” phrase that Thurmond used to voice his opposition to the bills he joined Biden in opposing.

By Jacob Weindling    April 5, 2019    9:41am

https://www.pastemagazine.com/politics/joe-biden/five-quotes-from-joe-bidens-eulogy-of-famed-republ/

*****

Pennsylvania - No faithless elector laws

Georgia - No faithless elector laws

Michigan - Failure to vote as pledged cancels the vote and replaces the elector (Mich. Comp. Laws § 168.47 )

Arizona - Failure to vote as pledged cancels the vote and replaces the elector (Ariz. Rev. Stat § 16-212 )

Wisconsin - Vote counted as cast (Wis. Stat. § 7.75(2) )

Nevada - Failure to vote as pledged cancels the vote and replaces the elector (Nev. Rev. Stat. § 298.075(2) )

New Mexico - Vote counted as cast (N.M. Stat. Ann. § 1-15-9 )

- New Mexico is the only state that has some form of legal penalty on this list for electors whom refuse to vote as pledged.

*****

The United States Constitution does not cover the "Electoral College" in depth and never specifically does so by name. Article II and the 23rd Amendment are about logistics. The 12th Amendment defers specific breakdown of electors to state legislatures. ( SCOTUS reaffirms this in Chiafalo, but the distinction still remains that this is a matter for state legislatures to hash out for themselves in the details and previous precedents have only resulted in "fines" i.e. Colin Powell/Hillary Clinton)  Two of the states CNN mentions have no laws regarding faithless electors. Personally I find Guiliani to be an idiot. And he's not an expert on the subject matter of election law. However just because he's an idiot that managed to get ambushed by Borat, that doesn't mean he can get fish fried over breaking laws in instances where there are no laws. Three of the states mentioned allow some mechanism to replace electors in the case of faithless electors. Again, discretion is given to each respective state. The two states that could drive serious problems here are Wisconsin and New Mexico, but again, there would a require a deeper dive into their legislatures and election laws than CNN is willing to cover via their shock marketing clickbait.

From an optics standpoint, dragging out the "rebellious electors" narrative and the "strong arming electors" narrative will push the conversation back to Strom Thurmond and how SCOTUS got to the point to rule on elector vote adherence. Then it pushes back to Joe Biden's relationship with Thurmond and their role together on Civil Rights issues. Biden pushes identity politics when his entire political career, outside of the protection of the activist complicit MSM, shows him as a racist. This is not the kind of backdoor media narrative that the Biden Administration is going to want in 2022 and 2024.

This issue also drags out that POTUS contenders Warren, Sanders, Klobuchar and Buttigieg all want the electoral college to get wiped out. Kamala Harris maintains a fence sitter position here. None of this helps any of them if this electoral college situation goes into a long run into the national daily media cycle. This particularly can hurt Buttigieg, and with the Afghanistan disaster, the Party apparatus needs a military man in tow for 2024 in some capacity.

CNN is going to have to do a state by state breakdown of what they consider "fake electors"

I actually don't agree with what Trump did and said on J6. It was not in the best interests of functional governance and it was not what was best overall, by intent, for all Americans. Trump is an idiot in this regard. Nikki Haley was right in that Trump initiated massive damage to the Republican Party and to all Conservatives for no real gain possible.

That being said, these issues with the electors, on a broad scale, are still functionally MATTERS OF LAW and need to be examined by each state in question and by each accusation levied against what each respective state legislature has ruled and put in place.  I don't have a problem with CNN or any media outlet making claims of any kind as long as they can provide a depth based pathway to their argument and the full context behind it to justify their position.

What are these "fake documents"?

What exists as an "alternate elector scheme" if you have states that have mechanisms to actually replace electors?

I'm actually discussing the laws in place, the issue of state legislatures, the Constitution, how this impacts the 2024 general cycle and the media pathway for the Democratic Party if they keep going down this road. And the hilarious part is I fully expect to be eventually personally attacked in this thread for doing so.

 

GordonGekko

Footballguy
Obviously, Trump supporters will ignore, deflect, whatabout, bothsides, and/or downplay this. ....


Mich. Comp. Laws § 168.47

Michigan law has mechanisms to replace electors. The "bolded" you discuss offers no context to every layer of what happened in Michigan.  The issue is a complex legal discussion. The dynamics of "faithless electors" and their legal pathway existed long before the 2020 general cycle. And even long before the 2016 general cycle.

What's clear is CNN is not discussing this in depth as said complex legal discussion. I'm open to hearing CNN providing the depth of context and conclusive evidence to defend and justify their claims. Until they do, it's just shock marketing.

You don't get to blame anyone for ignoring what others refuse to prove. It's a free country, you can choose to do that for yourself if you want. But is that what you teach your kids? Magic beans will grow a beanstalk just because someone with a platform to shout the loudest says so to them?

By CNN making a decision to NOT lay out conclusive evidence and to just rely on hearsay, it naturally DOWNPLAYS their claims on their own.

 

Stealthycat

Footballguy
if the electoral college is eliminated, I'll stop voting and 30-35 states voice in national elections will be totally irrelevant 



I'll keep looking at information on it all - lots of accusations for sure but hey, its Trump .... the left will continue to smear him in every way they can to keep him from not running in 2024 .... I just can't forget the faux Russia scam, the Stormy attempt, the tax returns attempts, the Ukraine scam .... it was relentless and it continues 

 

The General

Footballguy
if the electoral college is eliminated, I'll stop voting and 30-35 states voice in national elections will be totally irrelevant 

I'll keep looking at information on it all - lots of accusations for sure but hey, its Trump .... the left will continue to smear him in every way they can to keep him from not running in 2024 .... I just can't forget the faux Russia scam, the Stormy attempt, the tax returns attempts, the Ukraine scam .... it was relentless and it continues 
It’s audio of this lady, she’s not “the left”, Not much to look into. 

 

Coach Beard

Footballguy
Thanks for starting a thread specifically about this plot.

When news of these forged elector documents started surfacing, one thing that stood out was how the forgeries all closely resembled each other, but didn’t make much effort to look like the real documents submitted by each state.  That was an indicator that this was a coordinated national effort, not a rogue actor or two in a couple states.  
 

When you go back and look at statements made by people like Guiliani and Roger Stone in November and December 2020, it’s clear the Trump campaign knew about these forgeries and were eager to weaponize them.

Also, the language Pence used when formally certifying the results was a lot different than the script other VPs used, which had been pretty much identical for generations.  It was clear Pence knew about the forgeries, probably met with the Senate Parliamentarian about how to alter the wording of his statement to protect against the forgeries being included in the process.  

 

dozer

Footballguy
Trigger Warning: I use a far-right wing news source in this post.

The Washington Examiner is Mixed in Factual Reporting and Medium Credibility.

I've recently learned that this is just a part of "aggressively challenging" the election results.
Yeah, I was having a conversation about this with another poster the other day, and I agreed that former President Trumps challenge was certainly aggressive.

Then I referenced what I considered part of Trumps aggressive challenge that occurred in the form of a conference call on January 2, in which Trump addressed nearly 300 state legislators and several Stop the Steal leaders.

As reported by The Washington Examiner

Exclusive: Trump urges state legislators to reject electoral votes, ‘You are the real power’ January 3, 2021

"In a private call late Saturday to legislators who believe that Trump was robbed of reelection by fraudulent voting organized by Democrats, the president said that they were the only path to stopping Biden’s election."

“The most important people are you. You're more important than the courts. You're more important than anything because the courts keep referring to you, and you're the ones that are going to make the decision,” he said in a 14-minute call into a two-hour session organized by the group Got Freedom at the request of some 300 state legislators."

--And the important part you don’t want to forget about this conference call, it wasn’t just the legislators on the line, but several other members of the “stop the steal” movement.

"Several leaders of the #StopTheSteal movement were on the call, organized by Phill Kline who also heads the Amistad Project of the nonpartisan Thomas Moore Society. Others included Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani, who got Trump on the phone, law professor John Eastman, Peter Navarro, Trump’s trade czar who recently authored a report on the election, and John R. Lott Jr., a Justice Department official who also separately authored a new report suggesting some 300,000 “excess” ballots were counted, giving Biden his win."

So, that was J2.

This happened on J4:

“…it was Eastman who briefed both the President of the United States and Vice President Mike Pence in the Oval Office on Monday, January 4, just 48 hours before the insurrection.”

Ipso facto, Pence was OUT of the plan by J4.

Then the plan gets…. A little shaky....

Meanwhile..... Stewart Rhodes and the militia gang are allready on their way, transporting weapons to arm the Quick Reaction Force, and to organize the stack formations to breach the Capitol.

 
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James Daulton

Footballguy
if the electoral college is eliminated, I'll stop voting and 30-35 states voice in national elections will be totally irrelevant 

I'll keep looking at information on it all - lots of accusations for sure but hey, its Trump .... the left will continue to smear him in every way they can to keep him from not running in 2024 .... I just can't forget the faux Russia scam, the Stormy attempt, the tax returns attempts, the Ukraine scam .... it was relentless and it continues 
So you basically ignore reality?  I'll give you Russia (even though we all know that his team 100% improperly had contact with Russians just via the Trump Tower meeting and the polling info given to Russians).  How was the Stormy attempt fake?  He literally said he'd release his tax returns and he lied about why he wasn't.  We all read the Ukraine call transcript, if you don't think he was asking for dirt on Sleepy Joe to help his election chances again you're lying to yourself.

Basically you'll ignore any news about Trump because you don't want to believe it.  That's fine, but it's a weird way to look at things.  That'd be like me saying "Joe's been excellent on the border!"  Despite the mounds of evidence against it.  I guess you think his calls to the GA officials to look for votes was fine too?

I just really don't understand the hold Trump has on his fans.  He could not care less about the common man.  He'd renounce all things MAGA if he'd be welcomed into the Hollywood elite set.  

 

GordonGekko

Footballguy
Exclusive: Trump urges state legislators to reject electoral votes, ‘You are the real power’ January 3, 2021...

“The most important people are you. You're more important than the courts. You're more important than anything because the courts keep referring to you, and you're the ones that are going to make the decision,” he said in a 14-minute call into a two-hour session organized by the group Got Freedom at the request of some 300 state legislators."....


Which states? States that have no laws regarding "faithless electors"? Are we discussing the ones that actually allow their state legislature to replace electors in the case of "faithless electors"? 

Donald Trump is a narcissist and a grifter and he's an idiot, but he's not completely wrong here. The 12th Amendment vests the specific minutiae of the electors to the discretion of the respective state legislatures. Saying they are more important that SCOTUS is an implication that SCOTUS washed their hands of most of this because it formulates a Constitutional question that they can't and don't want to overcome. Which is also true. 

Could Trump and Guiliani and others have done something that was illegal? Sure, it's possible. Could Trump and Guiliani and others have done something that was not technically illegal but instead something unethical against the greater overall good for the American people? Sure, it's possible. But the latter isn't a crime.

But to make those claims and have them carry weight, they actually need to be proven. And in this specific dispute, it needs to be conclusively proven via an actual legal pathway. 

Trump said the 2020 election was stolen. Radical leftist zealots here all year kept saying no one could actually prove that. And it's true as a matter of law. There is no conclusive legal proof that the 2020 election was stolen.

The claims that Trump did something illegal with state electors, OK, right now no one can actually prove that. As a matter of law. There is no conclusive legal proof that Trump passed the threshold of unethical to the the full range of actual criminal behavior.

You'll say that when there is smoke that there is fire. Which usually has a point. But it would also have a point for Trump's 2020 election stolen claims as well. You can't just selectively pick and choose which "You can't prove it" narratives you want based on if it enriches your tribalism or not.

It's becoming more and more painfully clear to me that you just repetitively shout out "Because I Say So" at the very instant that poorly formed shock marketing tells you to do so. Well, you are helping to keep unskilled activist propagandists in work, so at least you are creating jobs.

 

James Daulton

Footballguy
Which states? States that have no laws regarding "faithless electors"? Are we discussing the ones that actually allow their state legislature to replace electors in the case of "faithless electors"? 

Donald Trump is a narcissist and a grifter and he's an idiot, but he's not completely wrong here. The 12th Amendment vests the specific minutiae of the electors to the discretion of the respective state legislatures. Saying they are more important that SCOTUS is an implication that SCOTUS washed their hands of most of this because it formulates a Constitutional question that they can't and don't want to overcome. Which is also true. 

Could Trump and Guiliani and others have done something that was illegal? Sure, it's possible. Could Trump and Guiliani and others have done something that was not technically illegal but instead something unethical against the greater overall good for the American people? Sure, it's possible. But the latter isn't a crime.

But to make those claims and have them carry weight, they actually need to be proven. And in this specific dispute, it needs to be conclusively proven via an actual legal pathway. 

Trump said the 2020 election was stolen. Radical leftist zealots here all year kept saying no one could actually prove that. And it's true as a matter of law. There is no conclusive legal proof that the 2020 election was stolen.

The claims that Trump did something illegal with state electors, OK, right now no one can actually prove that. As a matter of law. There is no conclusive legal proof that Trump passed the threshold of unethical to the the full range of actual criminal behavior.

You'll say that when there is smoke that there is fire. Which usually has a point. But it would also have a point for Trump's 2020 election stolen claims as well. You can't just selectively pick and choose which "You can't prove it" narratives you want based on if it enriches your tribalism or not.

It's becoming more and more painfully clear to me that you just repetitively shout out "Because I Say So" at the very instant that poorly formed shock marketing tells you to do so. Well, you are helping to keep unskilled activist propagandists in work, so at least you are creating jobs.
Radical leftist zealots?

:lmao:

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
This article is absolute garbage and this was also covered last year by NYT, Vox, AP and others.

Yes there is precedent for this - 

"Since the Electoral Count Act was enacted in 1887, a situation akin to “dueling electors” has happened only once, when Hawaii was in the throes of a close recount in 1960. The governor of Hawaii signed off on a Republican slate of electors for Richard M. Nixon before the recount was completed; when it was finished and showed John F. Kennedy ahead, the governor had to send a new Democratic slate to Congress. The Democratic slate was accepted."

NYT

"CLAIM: Republicans in several battleground states put up their own sets of electors for President Donald Trump. This sets the stage for dueling slates of electors on Jan. 6, where Vice President Mike Pence decides whether to accept or reject them.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: Partly false. Republicans in a handful of battleground states are trying to appoint themselves as “alternate electors” who cast votes for Trump, but their votes aren’t official, and their competing slates won’t deny President-elect Joe Biden the presidency. Pence’s role on Jan. 6 is to open and tally electoral college votes, not decide whether or not they are valid."

AP

 

Herb

Footballguy
This article is absolute garbage and this was also covered last year by NYT, Vox, AP and others.

Yes there is precedent for this - 

"Since the Electoral Count Act was enacted in 1887, a situation akin to “dueling electors” has happened only once, when Hawaii was in the throes of a close recount in 1960. The governor of Hawaii signed off on a Republican slate of electors for Richard M. Nixon before the recount was completed; when it was finished and showed John F. Kennedy ahead, the governor had to send a new Democratic slate to Congress. The Democratic slate was accepted."

NYT

"CLAIM: Republicans in several battleground states put up their own sets of electors for President Donald Trump. This sets the stage for dueling slates of electors on Jan. 6, where Vice President Mike Pence decides whether to accept or reject them.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: Partly false. Republicans in a handful of battleground states are trying to appoint themselves as “alternate electors” who cast votes for Trump, but their votes aren’t official, and their competing slates won’t deny President-elect Joe Biden the presidency. Pence’s role on Jan. 6 is to open and tally electoral college votes, not decide whether or not they are valid."

AP
I will note that both of the articles that you posted were written before Insurrection Day. The fact that they could not legally do what they were attempting to do is kind of the point of the investigation, no?

 

Ruffrodys05

IBL Representative
if the electoral college is eliminated, I'll stop voting and 30-35 states voice in national elections will be totally irrelevant 

I'll keep looking at information on it all - lots of accusations for sure but hey, its Trump .... the left will continue to smear him in every way they can to keep him from not running in 2024 .... I just can't forget the faux Russia scam, the Stormy attempt, the tax returns attempts, the Ukraine scam .... it was relentless and it continues 
The only folks smearing DJT are his co-conspirators. And himself. If he doesn't do stupid stuff it won't be reported on. 

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
I will note that both of the articles that you posted were written before Insurrection Day. The fact that they could not legally do what they were attempting to do is kind of the point of the investigation, no?
Attempting to do what? Have Pence overturn the election? The Constitution gives the vice president no such power, period.
 

 

The General

Footballguy
Attempting to do what? Have Pence overturn the election? The Constitution gives the vice president no such power, period.
 
This was the scheme that Don was trying to pull. If Pence goes along with him on Jan 6th it's complete pandemonium. Who knows what happens.

"If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country." - DJT

 

Maik Jeaunz

Footballguy
This was the scheme that Don was trying to pull. If Pence goes along with him on Jan 6th it's complete pandemonium. Who knows what happens.

"If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country." - DJT
wow, when you read that quote in the context of the article above, it's pretty scary. it's like having an inside man at the bank when you're planning a heist.

 

Amused to Death

Footballguy
Attempting to do what? Have Pence overturn the election? The Constitution gives the vice president no such power, period.
 
That's kinda the point, isn't it? And yet Trump was pressuring Pence to do just that. What procedures do we have if Pence went along with it? Keep in  mind Trump had already installed his "yes" men at the Pentagon. 

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
This was the scheme that Don was trying to pull. If Pence goes along with him on Jan 6th it's complete pandemonium. Who knows what happens.

"If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country." - DJT
“The Electoral Count Act, Potter said, offers a detailed playbook for how Congress' counting is supposed to go, and it specifically limits the vice president to ceremonial duties.

"It says the vice president shall preside and he shall ensure that the certifications and votes from the states are opened and read out," Potter said.”

“Trump has also rallied Republican members to object to the certification in Congress even though the effort is certainly doomed to fail — both chambers must agree to toss out a state's slate of electors, and Democrats control the House.

NBC

 

The General

Footballguy
“The Electoral Count Act, Potter said, offers a detailed playbook for how Congress' counting is supposed to go, and it specifically limits the vice president to ceremonial duties.

"It says the vice president shall preside and he shall ensure that the certifications and votes from the states are opened and read out," Potter said.”

“Trump has also rallied Republican members to object to the certification in Congress even though the effort is certainly doomed to fail — both chambers must agree to toss out a state's slate of electors, and Democrats control the House.

NBC
If Pence were as much a lunatic about this topic as the ex-President how do you see that playing out on Jan 6th?

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
If Pence were as much a lunatic about this topic as the ex-President how do you see that playing out on Jan 6th?
See what playing out? Convincing the house Dems to toss out the states slate of electors that had already certified Biden's victory? Is that a serious question?

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
Are you aware of the Eastman Memo, and its significance to all this?

I don't think anyone here is arguing with you.
What are you arguing then that Trump hatched a far-fetched plan that had zero chance of changing the results? You don’t need to convince me the man is insane. My issue is with garbage CNN and their garbage reporting. 

 

Herb

Footballguy
What are you arguing then that Trump hatched a far-fetched plan that had zero chance of changing the results? You don’t need to convince me the man is insane. My issue is with garbage CNN and their garbage reporting. 
Clearly Trump and his inner circle felt differently about their chances of success. What if I hatched a loony plan to assassinate someone that was basically untouchable, I put the plan into motion, and it failed miserably? Should I not be punished for a criminal conspiracy to commit murder? This is what is being investigated.

 

The General

Footballguy
Clearly Trump and his inner circle felt differently about their chances of success. What if I hatched a loony plan to assassinate someone that was basically untouchable, I put the plan into motion, and it failed miserably? Should I not be punished for a criminal conspiracy to commit murder? This is what is being investigated.
You should be considered a leader in the party and top contender for the Presidency.

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
Clearly Trump and his inner circle felt differently about their chances of success. What if I hatched a loony plan to assassinate someone that was basically untouchable, I put the plan into motion, and it failed miserably? Should I not be punished for a criminal conspiracy to commit murder? This is what is being investigated.
There was already precedent for this. The precedent is Hawaii, 1960

Doesn’t matter what Trump felt. The alternate electors we’re not certified by the state and appointed by state legislators. They didnt have legal authority and could not affect the counting of Electoral College votes.

Can you point to the crime they committed?

 

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