@Zowwill have better insight here, but I assume that these charges are internally consistent with one another - the more severe charges requiring a higher degree of intent, but that would not preclude finding the lower levels of intent for the lesser crimes.
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Derek Chauvin trial. Murder of George Floyd. Convictions now appealed. (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter NorvilleBarnes
- Start date
Let's see what happens when the sun sets. All it takes is one broken window for bad actors to capitalize on the situation
quick-hands
Footballguy
You are right. Unless he is.urbanhack said:
Mookie
Footballguy
Thanks. They sure seem like lesser included offenses of one another, but perhaps the intent element distinguishes them. I always thought that you couldn't stack convictions on top of one another if they alleged the same elements - you just went forward with the most serious offense.
Meh. I just read about 20 posts and there’s only a couple of posts pro-Chauvin. There’s always going to be outliers. Best yo ignore them and focus on the overwhelming number of people who agreed on this.
Zow
Footballguy
1. Yes, absolutely. There were technically three different theories but they related to his intent and the latter two were arguably lesser includeds of the first.
2. I don't anticipate the mere fact he was convicted of all three being a valid appeal issue.*
*I don't know whether this was litigated before or during the hearing.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Based on his criminal record the presumptive time is 12 1/2 years for second-degree murder. I would imagine the judge is feeling a lot of pressure to go above that time
facook
Footballguy
As usual, I appreciate your post. I feel nothing but a small bit of relief, and a ton of sadness. I just can't relate to folks celebrating. At the end of the day one man lost his life and a cop is going to prison, and many of his contemporaries are further painted with a broad brush as a result. There is no joy in any of that.
Just as an aside - I saw a blurb that the prosecution had agreed to drop the 3rd charge, but that it was re-instated prior to the trial based on a Minnesota Court ruling.
Don't know the details - and given that any sentence for the 3rd charge will run concurrently with the 1st (and 2nd), I don't think its going to be fertile grounds for an appeal.
Zow
Footballguy
Honestly, and this is going to sound strange, but he's not. I say this because oftentimes juries are compromised of people who are afraid to speak up and be judged about their opinions and biases. As a result, lawyers are deprived of the necessary information to best use their strikes and we wind up with biased jurors who were too cowardly to share their biases yet still vote in deliberations based on them. That's far more cowardly than a potential juror speaking up. In fact, I'd say it takes strength and honor to be able to say, "hey, I'm biased for X reason." Justice can be served when we are able to flesh out these biases and ensure biased people don't end up on juries.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'm probably less worried about the broad brush than you because I believe the police and their unions are in need of some serious corrective reform, but I feel no joy in any of it. Perhaps our positions in life and our immutable characteristics have something to do with it, but I'm thinking it's more our dispositions. There is a man dead and a man going to prison for a long time for acting inhumanely toward another fellow human. The celebration over the justice of the verdict only soothes our retributive senses, not our better ones.
dkp993 just had a great quote where he didn't know whether he was sadder to see people celebrating because the system is broken but worked for once, or that it it's fine yet people perceive it as broken and that's why they're celebrating.
I wholeheartedly concur. That says a lot about the state of our democracy. Either we're in trouble or we're in trouble.
whoknew
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
facook
Footballguy
I actually agree wholeheartedly, and in large part due to conversations with friends of mine who are in law enforcement and have been saying the same thing. Each of them agreed Chauvin was guilty of murder from the day it happened, and said as much regarding reform. Still, I hurt that a large segment of society sees every cop as an abuser or murderer because I care about my friends and police in general.
and also agree @dkp993's comment was excellent.
facook
Footballguy
Ok. I get I've not been oppressed so my reaction is different. Just can't relate at all to celebrating under the circumstances, even if conviction provides some hope.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Not a lot of social distancing with Reverend Al here
the moops
Footballguy
I heard an attorney on local NPR station and he said that the two lesser charges go away with him being found guilty of second degree murder. And that he is looking at 12.5 years for that charge (more if the judge decides the facts warrant an above guidelines sentence). I'll see if I can track that down
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
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Insoxicated
Honestly if there is no rioting/looting/arson I'll be damn happy.
I was just asking those who have supported the riots (there were several) where they stood now. I don't think that's an unreasonable question given the past year.
But yes, hopefully that tone has changed and the wave of destructive criminal behavior is over on both sides.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, there's definitely a potential for good guys to get painted all sorts of wrong. I've dealt with a lot of policemen in both my studies and my sort of non-violent criminal life, and most cops are okay. But when you catch a bad one, or corrupt one, or one that doesn't care about fundamental rights granted by the Constitution, you've got a problem.
I have two cousins that are policemen, so I'm not unfamiliar with it being close to me in a familial sense. One of them actually deserves the sort of bad rep that cops get among polite folk. He's a little too gung-ho about it and is very easily into the "them-us" mentality when it comes to the citizenry and their transgressions. The other cousin is cool, but I remember his wedding and the older cops not being cool at all in a relaxed setting.
In short, I used to care about good cops getting bad names, but I see too many bad actors today.
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whoknew
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I agree. But a cowardly person would be somebody afraid to admit and/or notify others of their untrustworthiness.
Gawain
Footballguy
I don't know if you heard the word Blakely being thrown around at all (Chauvin waived his Blakely rights to aggravation factors by jury), but the aggravating factors that may or may not be present are what will decide the length of his sentence. The biggest issue now is the aggravating factor of the crime being committed in the presence of a minor. There were two 17 year olds and an 8 or 9 year old present when Floyd died.
Zow
Footballguy
Not sure they'd "go away" (as in dismissed) but more likely will run concurrent with the more serious offense and, but for some unlikely future circumstances, be totally moot.
facook
Footballguy
Interesting. Helps me see where my "nothing but a good time" experiences with cops color my thinking. Thanks for the food for thought.
The General
Footballguy
I don't follow these racially charged police cases super closely to be honest but it seemed there was on full display zero "thin blue line" going on here. His colleagues and bosses buried Chauvin. Big, big progress there.
Seems odd. Seems like double jeopardy. He undoubtedly deserved conviction, but stacking convictions for the same crime seems unconstitutional.
the moops
Footballguy
Yea I dont know. The host asked if they would run concurrently or consecutively and the attorney clearly said that no, it would just be the 2nd degree murder charge. Maybe he was taking liberty with that wording though. And then went on to talk about how the judge will have to determine whether there were special circumstances of the crime that would justify a lengthier sentence than the guidelines
Gawain
Footballguy
That's why the sentences will run concurrently, but I don't understand why people think this is a big deal. Just had a women on drugs hit and kill a motorcyclist. She's charged with speeding, reckless driving, OUI, leaving the scene and vehicular homicide. All from the same incident. If, for some reason, the jury finds that she wasn't impaired, that doesn't mean she didn't speed.
Just as if the jury found that Chauvin wasn't guilty of second degree, he may still be guilty of third degree. As Woz pointed out, prosecutors may be reluctant to have lesser includeds presented because of the risk the jury will opt for a compromise, but there's zero wrong with doing so.
Dennis Castro
Footballguy
I’d say he’s probably getting his cavity search about now.
timschochet
Footballguy
And that’s why there is happy celebration. I honestly don’t understand the people here who believe there shouldn’t be celebration. Of course there should be.
pantherclub
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Good lord that's awful. She acts like he voluntarily stuck his neck under Chauvin's knee for the good of the rest of the country. It's amazing people defend and vote for this lady
pantherclub
Footballguy
why are we celebrating 2 lives completely ruined and both parties are blatantly to blame?
I think you should be saying, "yeah lets get this behind us and both sides need to work on things"
The word should be tragedy
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Wanting to protect my family isn't about my testosterone. And there's no way to prove this but I think if put in that situation, more people would think like me than you think. So we can just agree to disagree on this subject.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Most of those are distinct separate acts. Doing drugs...speeding....hitting someone...the leaving the scene. This was one act.
timschochet
Footballguy
Unfortunate choice of words on her part. Despite being pretty clearly the best Speaker of the House in our history, she’s not perfect.
Quick quesion about the sentencing. After the trial but before the verdict in the court room the judge held a motion that I inerpreted to be about agravated circumstances whereby Chauvin waived his abiliy for a jury to decide that matter and instead let the judge decide. I was brought up again today for scheduling reasons. It was a 1 word "name" if that helps you understand what Im even talking about. My quesion is am I misunderstanding what that is about and if not how can that hearing affect the senence Chauvin will get?
The Commish
Footballguy
Watching that verdict was surreal. Theres a lot to process from them getting it right to this guy's lifebeingoverto people cheering that the right decision was actually made. Its really a picture of a broken system when that sort of celebration is more than a nod to the right thing happening
facook
Footballguy
It's not a polarity tim. Read the other posts and you'll find the answer to your first question.
