Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) in Baltimore collapes (2 Viewers)

[belljr]

This is unlikely as they will probably take the opportunity to modernize it for today's demand and traffic flow in the area.

Just because it's interesting:

What's the sort of improvements/modernizations that might take place?

Making it less bouncy to drive on would be a good start.

Footage of the 1977 Key Bridge grand opening

 

[Snoopy]

or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRutAt0FlGA

 

[The Z Machine]

FWIW II, while I spent the first 37 years of my life on the outskirts of DC, I never felt any connection to that city like I have towards Baltimore in these last 20+.

That's because DC is either soulless or soul sucking. BMore is real (for good and bad).

 

[mr. furley]

you see that bridge, Nick?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

FWIW II, while I spent the first 37 years of my life on the outskirts of DC, I never felt any connection to that city like I have towards Baltimore in these last 20+.

That's because DC is either soulless or soul sucking. BMore is real (for good and bad).

We’ve disagreed on Baltimore before but I cannot argue this.

 

[Slumpbusters]

This is unlikely as they will probably take the opportunity to modernize it for today's demand and traffic flow in the area.

Just because it's interesting:

What's the sort of improvements/modernizations that might take place?

I'm not familiar with this bridge intimately, but 99% of the improvements and modernizations that are done in bridge design is related to traffic flow. I would imagine Baltimore in 2024 is much different than what was anticipated when the originally designed and built the bridge in the late 70s.

The bounciness is part of bridges in general, you'll feel that in many that you cross.

 

[El Floppo]

Wow... Some fantastic info in here, guys - thanks!

I'm remembering the SF Bay bridge that came down in the 89 earthquake and was partially rebuilt/redesigned... I wonder if there's any potential similarities there.

 

[Kev4029]

Any over under for when they have it rebuilt? 1 yr? How do they resume boat traffic while doing the construction?

Anyone think season 2 of the wire was underrated?

WAG - 1.5 years at an absolute minimum.

I guess that's not an O/U... For that, say 2.5 years.

This would be a good time for somebody in a position of authority to step up and prove us wrong. I've said many times before that the US in 2024 would be incapable of building the interstate highway system from scratch, and we've all seen how assorted public works projects involving high-speed rail have gone. It's not like the technology here is complicated or anything -- we've just chosen as a society to make this sort of thing impossible.

somebody help me out as i'm light on the specifics ... didn't the US just rebuild a collapsed bridge in more like a few weeks vs 1+ years?

Are you referring to the section of I-95 in Philly where there was that truck fire that collapsed part of the road? If so, that's not a fair analogy as they basically just filled that underpass in and paved over it for now to get traffic going again. Basically made a bridge not-a-bridge and moved the issue to the smaller road that went under I-95.

Correct. The filled in the exit underpass. And created a temporary 4 lane road in about 12 days working around the clock. They then started to rebuild the outside lane overpass sections
That was completed in about 6 months. The inner lanes and exit are expected to be completed by May. So about 11 months total.

That is minor compared to this

Eta.... It's 8 lanes in that area

Plus probably 1.5+ years of engineering and planning ahead of that.

I think designing and reconstructing this bridge in one year would be an engineering feat nearly on the level of us putting a person on the Moon in 1969.

I don’t think it’s the engineering that typically holds this stuff up, it’s the bureaucratic mess that drags this stuff out.

While a totally different scale, the one thing learned from the Philly bridge overpass rebuild, is that things can happen REALLY fast when the magic government hand is waved to eliminate bureaucracy in approvals and execution.

If the pockets are opened and the government is motivated to step aside and not hold things up, I’d bet the whole thing could get done in under 2 years. Maybe less. As is, we’re probably looking at a decade.

Bureaucracy slows down a typical project pre-design through the EPA/environmental process (on a typical project this size they would probably be looking at 3 years +/- for that process), and through securing of funding. Exclusive of both of those, this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

 

[The Z Machine]

this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

I hope that they can do it in 3. That would be major progress and would put hope back into government for a lot of folks.

 

[Kev4029]

This is unlikely as they will probably take the opportunity to modernize it for today's demand and traffic flow in the area.

Just because it's interesting:

What's the sort of improvements/modernizations that might take place?

Making it less bouncy to drive on would be a good start.

The new bridge will probably be less bouncy as it is unlikely to be a steel truss bridge, but I would also guess that the spans from pier to pier will be longer to meet modern needs as @Slumpbusters mentioned. The change in structure type will be somewhat offset by longer spans and it will still be bouncy.

 

[culdeus]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

 

[Kev4029]

this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

I hope that they can do it in 3. That would be major progress and would put hope back into government for a lot of folks.

Quality, Schedule, Cost - at most you can pick two. In this case, I would assume cost will be sacrificed not schedule. They'll get it done faster than 3 years but it'll cost 2-3 times as much as a typical project of similar size and scope.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

8 construction workers, 2 pulled out alive, 6 presumed dead.

 

[urbanhack]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

When something so random happens like this I think about a scenario: "What if you could be shown your own death ahead of time?"

"So how will I go out? Heart attack? Cancer? Drunk driver?"

"Nope, you'll be working on a bridge when a container ship will run into it and collapse the bridge."

"Say what now? "

 

[BlackCrowes]

When something so random happens like this I think about a scenario: "What if you could be shown your own death ahead of time?"

"So how will I go out? Heart attack? Cancer? Drunk driver?"

"Nope, you'll be working on a bridge when a container ship will run into it and collapse the bridge."

"Say what now? "

would definitely be a little further down the list

 

[The Z Machine]

this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

I hope that they can do it in 3. That would be major progress and would put hope back into government for a lot of folks.

Quality, Schedule, Cost - at most you can pick two. In this case, I would assume cost will be sacrificed not schedule. They'll get it done faster than 3 years but it'll cost 2-3 times as much as a typical project of similar size and scope.

I wonder if insurance on the ship covers this.

 

[The Z Machine]

What's the estimated cost of bridge replacement vs. Rhe cost of the ship + cargo?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

I hope that they can do it in 3. That would be major progress and would put hope back into government for a lot of folks.

Quality, Schedule, Cost - at most you can pick two. In this case, I would assume cost will be sacrificed not schedule. They'll get it done faster than 3 years but it'll cost 2-3 times as much as a typical project of similar size and scope.

I wonder if insurance on the ship covers this.

An article on the insurance ramifications

Specifically on the P&I issue, experts say that it is too soon to say whether the P&I sector’s complex and layered structure of insurance and reinsurance up to $3.1bn might be breached. But it is widely thought that the largest-ever P&I claim to date, the $1.5bn Costa Concordia incident, could well be exceeded.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

this project would probably be something like a 5+ year timeline with a standard design and construction schedule.

I hope that they can do it in 3. That would be major progress and would put hope back into government for a lot of folks.

Quality, Schedule, Cost - at most you can pick two. In this case, I would assume cost will be sacrificed not schedule. They'll get it done faster than 3 years but it'll cost 2-3 times as much as a typical project of similar size and scope.

I wonder if insurance on the ship covers this.

I mean, what the heck would the point of insurance be if it doesn't.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

I'm sorry, are you implying that if they were white American citizens they would have all had emergency radios on them?

 

[urbanhack]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

I'm sorry, are you implying that if they were white American citizens they would have all had emergency radios on them?

No...'m just stating what I read as to the reason they were not able to be evacuated.

 

[belljr]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

I'm sorry, are you implying that if they were white American citizens they would have all had emergency radios on them?

No...'m just stating what I read as to the reason they were not able to be evacuated.

What does being an immigrant have anything to do with it? One guy worked for the company for 15 years... Odd sentence

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Come on man, this is the whole issue with the board we are discussing in the other thread. No reason to identify them as Immigrants unless you mean they were illegally living on the bridge or something like that.

 

[titusbramble]

May well have seen this on here already, but the great thing about the internet is that within any given community there's a very good chance you'll have someone who knows what they're talking about on this - elsewhere on my main football/soccer forum we have a user whose day job is within civil engineering specialising in bridge design and assessment, who basically said:

a) At the point said bridge was built, there was not a great deal of planning in terms of what would happen in this sort of spot
b) In this sort of spot, it doesn't matter what anyone could have done, bridge is ****ed regardless

Had similar in that situation where the sub going down to the Titanic imploded, it's great to see insight on it, would be real interesting to see how attitudes might have changed in the aftermath of something like Three Mile Island or Chernobyl if you could have just logged on and found a nuclear engineer saying "well this is what the deal is" at the time

 

[Galileo]

or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRutAt0FlGA

I show footage of the Tacoma Narrows bridge every year to my physics classes. Jaws always hit the floor watching it.

 

[The Z Machine]

In this sort of spot, it doesn't matter what anyone could have done, bridge is ****ed regardless

That seems pretty obvious. A massive cargo ship going at a decent speed making a direct strike on a pylon for a long bridge? Bridges aren't designed to withstand such impacts. Load from vehicles? Sure. Loads from wind? Yes. Loads from tidal forces and waves. Definitely. But not a giant cargo ship hitting it. I don't know of some sort of deflector system could be developed to prevent this sort of thing, but that too seems daunting.

 

[coopersdad]

Dumb question, but Biden is saying that the federal government will fund the repair of the bridge............

Why wouldn't the insurance carrier for the Cargo company need to reimburse the US Govt?

 

[The Z Machine]

Dumb question, but Biden is saying that the federal government will fund the repair of the bridge............

Why wouldn't the insurance carrier for the Cargo company need to reimburse the US Govt?

Oh I think they will. But the US government isn't going to wait for that settlement to play out. They'll front the money by spinning a printing press and then collect whatever they can later. They can play the long game.

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

it was a Dannish ship so we'd have to sue them in international court?

although

This website is unavailable in your location. – Boston 25 News

www.boston25news.com

According to a Coast Guard memo obtained by ABC News, a harbor pilot and an assistant aboard the cargo ship reported the power problems. The pilots were operating the ship, not the ship’s captain.

Harbor pilots are people who are experts on their local waterways. They are usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice to the captain of the vessel as to how to control their ships through local waters.

So I guess its baltimores fault?

 

[BLOCKED_PUNT]

I mean, I guess since there was an electical problem it COULD be thier fault. But they can argue that thier guy wasn't driving and its not thiers? The bridge needs to be repaired/rebuilt and the funds are going to be avalible way quicker fro, out gov then letting this play out in court.

 

[rockaction]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

I'm sorry, are you implying that if they were white American citizens they would have all had emergency radios on them?

No...'m just stating what I read as to the reason they were not able to be evacuated.

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

I'm sorry, are you implying that if they were white American citizens they would have all had emergency radios on them?

No...'m just stating what I read as to the reason they were not able to be evacuated.

What does being an immigrant have anything to do with it? One guy worked for the company for 15 years... Odd sentence

This is absolutely how almost every news agency in America was reporting it.

Lay off urbanhack. He’s just giving us the news. If you have a beef, beef with the news agencies.

 

[Desert_Power]

Dumb question, but Biden is saying that the federal government will fund the repair of the bridge............

Why wouldn't the insurance carrier for the Cargo company need to reimburse the US Govt?

Oh I think they will. But the US government isn't going to wait for that settlement to play out. They'll front the money by spinning a printing press and then collect whatever they can later. They can play the long game.

Why even have the metaphorical printing press if not for such a situation? The government can and will give funding to whomever will rebuild this as quickly as they can.

Glad y'all are OK Z.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Dumb question, but Biden is saying that the federal government will fund the repair of the bridge............

Why wouldn't the insurance carrier for the Cargo company need to reimburse the US Govt?

Oh I think they will. But the US government isn't going to wait for that settlement to play out. They'll front the money by spinning a printing press and then collect whatever they can later. They can play the long game.

He said exactly that in his press conference.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

In this sort of spot, it doesn't matter what anyone could have done, bridge is ****ed regardless

That seems pretty obvious. A massive cargo ship going at a decent speed making a direct strike on a pylon for a long bridge? Bridges aren't designed to withstand such impacts. Load from vehicles? Sure. Loads from wind? Yes. Loads from tidal forces and waves. Definitely. But not a giant cargo ship hitting it. I don't know of some sort of deflector system could be developed to prevent this sort of thing, but that too seems daunting.

When that bridge was built, cargo ship were nowhere near the size they are now.

Often, bridges these days have longer central spans and the supports are in shallows. That would stop a ship from hitting them.

 

[FairWarning]

I saw 6 dead. I thought they pulled 2 out of the water and we were good with idea that they stopped traffic.

There would have been many more had traffic not stopped. Plus there was a maintenance crew filling potholes when it happened.

Yes...those were immigrants who did not have emergencies radios or any type of communication on them.

Two were found trapped in a car submerged.

 

[Max Power]

it was a Dannish ship so we'd have to sue them in international court?

although

This website is unavailable in your location. – Boston 25 News

www.boston25news.com

According to a Coast Guard memo obtained by ABC News, a harbor pilot and an assistant aboard the cargo ship reported the power problems. The pilots were operating the ship, not the ship’s captain.

Harbor pilots are people who are experts on their local waterways. They are usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice to the captain of the vessel as to how to control their ships through local waters.

So I guess its baltimores fault?

In theory. A local team navigates the ship through the harbor waters and then hands it over to the ship's Captain & crew once past a certain point.

 

[Rich Conway]

In theory. A local team navigates the ship through the harbor waters and then hands it over to the ship's Captain & crew once past a certain point.

Gotta assume investigators would need to get to the root cause first. If the issue was mechanical (e.g. power), that would probably fall on the owner of the ship, whereas a human error issue would probably fall on the employer of said human.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

In theory. A local team navigates the ship through the harbor waters and then hands it over to the ship's Captain & crew once past a certain point.

Gotta assume investigators would need to get to the root cause first. If the issue was mechanical (e.g. power), that would probably fall on the owner of the ship, whereas a human error issue would probably fall on the employer of said human.

Unless it was something like the "dirty fuel" theory, then the responsibility seems to go further upstream.

 

[Rich Conway]

In theory. A local team navigates the ship through the harbor waters and then hands it over to the ship's Captain & crew once past a certain point.

Gotta assume investigators would need to get to the root cause first. If the issue was mechanical (e.g. power), that would probably fall on the owner of the ship, whereas a human error issue would probably fall on the employer of said human.

Unless it was something like the "dirty fuel" theory, then the responsibility seems to go further upstream.

Yes, exactly. Root cause is going to be the first step in determining liability.

 

[3C's]

it was a Dannish ship so we'd have to sue them in international court?

although

This website is unavailable in your location. – Boston 25 News

www.boston25news.com

According to a Coast Guard memo obtained by ABC News, a harbor pilot and an assistant aboard the cargo ship reported the power problems. The pilots were operating the ship, not the ship’s captain.

Harbor pilots are people who are experts on their local waterways. They are usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice to the captain of the vessel as to how to control their ships through local waters.

So I guess its baltimores fault?

Singapore based ship; leased by Maersk (Danish). Insurers will be footing the bill.

 

[The Z Machine]

Singapore based ship; leased by Maersk (Danish). Insurers will be footing the bill.

As they should. It was an accident. A very costly accident. Not sure what the max liability is here, but we're gonna find out.

Thankfully, my house is 4 blocks from the water and uphill so I can sleep well knowing I'm safe from runaway cargo ships.

 

[mr. furley]

someone upthread suggested the size of cargo ships today being a factor. article talks about that among other things speculated in this thread, including "dolphins".

Loading…

www.cnn.com

"A CNN review of public records and interviews with about a dozen bridge and shipping experts show that hundreds of bridges over US waterways were built decades ago when container ships were a fraction of the size and weight they are today. Bridges of the era when the Key Bridge was built weren’t designed to protect against collisions with ships as big as the Dali, the vessel that caused the Baltimore catastrophe."

 

[loser]

When something so random happens like this I think about a scenario: "What if you could be shown your own death ahead of time?"

"So how will I go out? Heart attack? Cancer? Drunk driver?"

"Nope, you'll be working on a bridge when a container ship will run into it and collapse the bridge."

"Say what now? "

would definitely be a little further down the list

I got 99 problems but the bridge ain't one.

I'm so sorry.

 

[3C's]

Massive crane should arrive today . They expect about 4 weeks to clear the channel enough to get things moving.

 

[mr. furley]

Massive crane should arrive today . They expect about 4 weeks to clear the channel enough to get things moving.

the first thing that popped in to my head was "wonder how much that crane operator gets paid?" is he salaried? hourly? what kind of training does it take to operate one of those things?

maybe that's a question for EvilKeith

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Massive crane should arrive today . They expect about 4 weeks to clear the channel enough to get things moving.

the first thing that popped in to my head was "wonder how much that crane operator gets paid?" is he salaried? hourly? what kind of training does it take to operate one of those things?

maybe that's a question for EvilKeith

Hourly, I'm almost positive. I don't know what the guys qualified to run that behemoth make, but I know union operators on "normal" cranes make money that would have your eyes popping out of your head.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Massive crane should arrive today . They expect about 4 weeks to clear the channel enough to get things moving.

I think it's sitting on a barge out there now, unless they have an even bigger one coming.

 

[3C's]

Massive crane should arrive today . They expect about 4 weeks to clear the channel enough to get things moving.

I think it's sitting on a barge out there now, unless they have an even bigger one coming.

Yeah, caught a pic of it from the live stream. https://imgur.com/a/IjyKaAM