2004 NFL QB Draft- Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger (1 Viewer)

Curious to see how the Shark Pool ranks these QBs as of today, and based upon future potential. With five years in, all three are playoff caliber franchise QBs. Roethlisberger and Manning have SB rings. Rivers had his best year this year, and looks to be getting better each year. There's a pretty good chance one (or more) of these guys will be in the SB this year.

What order would you take them in? I still like Big Ben the best, but I'm admittedly partial. Next I would take Rivers. Eli's my third choice.

What say you?

Interesting question, I think all 3 teams are pretty happy with how it turned out.

I'd probably go:

Rivers

Ben

Eli

If you'd asked before this year I would have gone:

Ben

Eli

Rivers

Rivers has really impressed me this year and has pretty much carried that Chargers team on his back all season. I very much believe without him they would have been a lot closer to Oakland and KC then to the playoffs.

Another interesting thing to look at is what if the Giants had just kept Rivers and not made the trade to get Eli, which would have given them a 1st rounder in 05' and a 3rd in 04', plus whatever else was in that deal.

still a big fan of Ben, his game could go to any team imo

This worked well for San Diego of course, but they could still be drafted in any order.

I went Ben, Rivers, Eli but it's very close.

travdogg said:

Interesting question, I think all 3 teams are pretty happy with how it turned out.

I'd probably go:

Rivers

Ben

Eli

If you'd asked before this year I would have gone:

Ben

Eli

Rivers

Rivers has really impressed me this year and has pretty much carried that Chargers team on his back all season. I very much believe without him they would have been a lot closer to Oakland and KC then to the playoffs.

Another interesting thing to look at is what if the Giants had just kept Rivers and not made the trade to get Eli, which would have given them a 1st rounder in 05' and a 3rd in 04', plus whatever else was in that deal.

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Now just think had they kept Rivers, they may not have made it to last year's Super Bowl. Or have had the #1 seed this year in the playoffs.Eli's playoff run last year puts him on top of this class for now. But it is very close and this debate will be fun to have for a long time (if Pittsburgh can protect Ben)

timschochet said:

Curious to see how the Shark Pool ranks these QBs as of today, and based upon future potential. With five years in, all three are playoff caliber franchise QBs. Roethlisberger and Manning have SB rings. Rivers had his best year this year, and looks to be getting better each year. There's a pretty good chance one (or more) of these guys will be in the SB this year.What order would you take them in? I still like Big Ben the best, but I'm admittedly partial. Next I would take Rivers. Eli's my third choice.What say you?

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The talent around Rivers is far better for a QB than either other QB. Manning has the worst receiving group, but he has the best running attack. I think Rivers would struggle playing in Pitt or NY with his weaker arm the ball would float too much. Roethlisberger has the worst OL for protection (although he does hold the ball far too long).They are close so we are splitting hairs a little, but I would take Manning and then Rivers and then Roethlisberger.They are all above average QB's. Outside of Manning, Brady and Brees, there is a group of QB's that is very close IMO. In no order: The 3 above, Rodgers, Cutler, McNabb, and Romo.Warner's age would drop him, but he is in the group now.Matt Ryan needs another year of proof, but he is knocking on the door. Schaub seems a little behind these guys to me. Pennington's stats look good, but he hurts the running game and struggles mightily converting 3rd downs of any length.Let me tier in no order as of today and not trying to project anything other than who would you start next year.Manning/BradyBreesMcNabb/Cutler/Roethlisberger/E. Manning/Rivers/Rodgers/Romo/PalmerWarnerSchaub/T. Edwards/RyanGarrard/Thigpen/Flacco/Pennington/Campbell/Delhomme (last night?)/Collins/S. Hill/Hasselbeck (wallace)Russell/Bulger/TJackson/Quinn//Favre/GarciaOrton/Orlovsky/I tried to stick with starters, but a guy like Cassel would probably be in the Schaub area. Kerry Collins still makes excellent 12 yard out patterns and is a tough guy, but because of age, you may drop him to the next level. Thigpen seems to be a guy who could step up a level or 2 and S. Hill finished well too. Garrard needs more talent around him from a receiving standpoint, but he leveled out and I thought he might step up this year.

Really like Rothlisburger and Manning has they are both proven winners. While Roth's record as a starter is enviable, none of these quarterbacks have made the plays that Eli made in the SuperBowl. Give me Eil.

Liquid Tension said:

The talent around Rivers is far better for a QB than either other QB. Manning has the worst receiving group, but he has the best running attack. I think Rivers would struggle playing in Pitt or NY with his weaker arm the ball would float too much. Roethlisberger has the worst OL for protection (although he does hold the ball far too long).

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I'd disagree with this. Manning's receivers are underrated. Smith, Toomer, and Hixon fill me with a lot more confidence than Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers--and that's not even counting the fact that Burress is pretty good when he's not a nutcase. And hell, this year, they've been better than Pittsburgh's, where only Ward has been consistently effective.

I think another interesting question is "When was the last time the 1st 3 QB's taken in the draft were franchise QB's" add in Superbowl and playoff appearances if you like

By the way J.P Losman was 4th and it's safe to assume he hasn't worked out.

Matt Schaub was 5th, but he was drafted at the end of the 3rd and by Atlanta. Still not sure if he is franchise quality.Luke McCown was 6th by Cleveland.

Jim Sorgi is the only other QB out of the 17 drafted that year who's still gracing an NFL roster

I would rank Ben #1, Manning #2, and Rivers last. I know Rivers had a great season and put up sick numbers along with an NFL best QB rating. But I just can't get past his weaker arm. Since Ben and Eli both already have a ring and a better arm, I rank Rivers last.

I had it Big Ben, Rivers, Manning then and still do now. I will say that I expected one of Rivers or Eli to bust (didn't know which one) and was dead wrong about that.

lyon812 said:

Liquid Tension said:

The talent around Rivers is far better for a QB than either other QB. Manning has the worst receiving group, but he has the best running attack. I think Rivers would struggle playing in Pitt or NY with his weaker arm the ball would float too much. Roethlisberger has the worst OL for protection (although he does hold the ball far too long).

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I'd disagree with this. Manning's receivers are underrated. Smith, Toomer, and Hixon fill me with a lot more confidence than Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers--and that's not even counting the fact that Burress is pretty good when he's not a nutcase. And hell, this year, they've been better than Pittsburgh's, where only Ward has been consistently effective.

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I was not counting Plax as I think he played his last game in NY. Since he went down, the Giants lost 4 of 5 (of course Tuck's injury didn't help either). the guys you mention are fine, but they are not good #1's. Hixon is the best of the group, but he is not there yet. Toomer who has dropped a ton of passes over the past years, has caught the ball better this year, but gets NO separation or respect as he is always single covered (and still can't get open. I think Toomer is done and he should not start if he doesn't retire.

Big Ben is a bit overrated imo. While his offensive line does give up a lot of sacks, some of him are his fault because he holds onto the ball to long and scrambles more then he should. These mistakes lead to him being injured more then he should and making more turnovers then he should. I'm not suggesting he isn't a good quarterback, but he simply isn't as good as Eli or Rivers.

Eli Manning played amazing last year in the Super Bowl. He's proven to be a quarterback who can be trusted with the game on the line.

Philip Rivers put up big numbers this year. Definitely a very good quarterback.

I'd rank them: 1. Eli 2. Rivers 3. Big Ben. The difference between Eli and Rivers may be pretty small though.

TwinTurbo said:

I would rank Ben #1, Manning #2, and Rivers last. I know Rivers had a great season and put up sick numbers along with an NFL best QB rating. But I just can't get past his weaker arm. Since Ben and Eli both already have a ring and a better arm, I rank Rivers last.

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Thought I would have heard more of this argument. Don't like it at all. In fact, any ranking that doesn't put Eli last just doesn't make sense to me. He is the only one of the three that hasn't yet shown that he can step up and be an elite QB, one that can win without a great defense, run game. I rank Rivers first, because he looks most like he can put it all on his shoulders in a PEYTON manning kind of way, and Ben second because he just seems to put it together when it matters most.

Very interesting results here. Very few people have Eli first, but opinions are almost evenly split in every other direction.

Rivers is now 2 Lombardi's behind Big Ben, but you're only as good as the other 10 players around you.

There's no doubt in my mind that Rivers would have the two titles had he been drafted by Pittsburgh into the same situation.

Raider Nation said:

Rivers is now 2 Lombardi's behind Big Ben, but you're only as good as the other 10 players around you.There's no doubt in my mind that Rivers would have the two titles had he been drafted by Pittsburgh into the same situation.

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Rivers has had a pretty good supporting cast, although in his defense, his RB is a bit of a pansy no-show come playoff time.

Adebisi said:

Raider Nation said:

Rivers is now 2 Lombardi's behind Big Ben, but you're only as good as the other 10 players around you.There's no doubt in my mind that Rivers would have the two titles had he been drafted by Pittsburgh into the same situation.

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Rivers has had a pretty good supporting cast, although in his defense, his RB is a bit of a pansy no-show come playoff time.

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The OL has improved during his tenure, LT and Gates were the entire O - Rivers has never had better than servicable WR's. LT might not have been as ineffective in the playoffs if he had not been ridden into the ground by the team.

Tecmo said:

still a big fan of Ben, his game could go to any team imo

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He's the best at winning close games, he thrives in those situations, where most other QB's would buckle... Ben's Superbowl QB ratings are still off, but I think he'll go to another SB in his career.Manning will likely be in another Superbowl , chould/should have been in this one if not for Plax with Rivers you just feel like SD kept the wrong QB and let the better one leave town ( Brees).BenManningRivers

I voted Ben/Rivers/Eli, but that would've been the same before last night.

Raider Nation said:

Rivers is now 2 Lombardi's behind Big Ben, but you're only as good as the other 10 players around you.There's no doubt in my mind that Rivers would have the two titles had he been drafted by Pittsburgh into the same situation.

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Forgive the reply to my own post, but I've been thinking about this some more and I don't think Ben gets enough credit.I ask myself... would Ben have won the Super Bowl in 2007 with Eli's Giants around him? Most likely.Then I ask myself if Eli would have won the Super Bowls in 2005 and 2008 with Ben's Steelers around him. I'm not so sure.Eli is a statue. You always know where to find him -- seven steps behind the center in a cozy pocket being protected by a great offensive line. Ben can make all the throws Eli can make. (Eli probably throws a crisper 15-yard out pattern). Pittsburgh's offensive line is nowhere near as good as the G-Men, and Ben ends up running for his life all the time. But that often turns into a positive, as he actually seems to be more effective throwing on the run while outside the tackles. If Eli had to do that as often as Ben does, I don't think the results would be very good. Another thing in Ben's favor is that he is a friggin HORSE. How many times have we seen a blitzer come totally free with a clear shot on him, and the defender just drips off of him. He is crazy strong... it takes a good shot to get him to the ground.Anyway, thought of this thread after watching tape of last weeks games, and I'm just thinking out loud a bit.Rivers will probably always have the best stats of the three, but I think Ben is the most interchangeable, versatile QB.

Rivers, Eli, then Roethlisberger.

No way I'd even consider Roethlisberger over the other two, unless you get to draft the Pittsburgh defense with him. One good drive a game won't do you any good with any other team in the league.

Raider Nation said:

I ask myself... would Ben have won the Super Bowl in 2007 with Eli's Giants around him? Most likely.Then I ask myself if Eli would have won the Super Bowls in 2005 and 2008 with Ben's Steelers around him. I'm not so sure.Eli is a statue. You always know where to find him -- seven steps behind the center in a cozy pocket being protected by a great offensive line. Ben can make all the throws Eli can make. (Eli probably throws a crisper 15-yard out pattern). Pittsburgh's offensive line is nowhere near as good as the G-Men, and Ben ends up running for his life all the time. But that often turns into a positive, as he actually seems to be more effective throwing on the run while outside the tackles. If Eli had to do that as often as Ben does, I don't think the results would be very good.

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This is a horrible misconception that always makes me wonder what people are watching in the 15 other games that aren't the Steelers.A quarterback doesn't have to be mobile to deal well with pressure. Most great quarterbacks can deal with it without taking more than a step. Look at Tom Brady for example. The guy takes the fewest sacks in the league in 2007, then in 2008 behind the exact same offensive line the much more mobile Matt Cassell comes damn near taking the most in the league.People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games? It ends up in huge losses just as often (if not moreso) than it does a positive play. Those huge losses are drive killers on that team with their poor, Big Ben lead offense. The Pittsburgh line is bad, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be. They get made to look worse because Big Ben holds the ball back there forever, even when he has time. I look at that play in the Titans game where the Titans blitzed 7 guys and got through quickly and, despite having 3 guys in single coverage and one guy uncovered, Big Ben tries to shrug off all those blitzers instead of unloading the ball quickly. Do you really believe that Eli/Rivers don't get that ball out immediately when they see that? They don't have to run around for 10 minutes to make a positive play against pressure.Besides that, every positive that people say about Big Ben can be applied to the Steelers' offense line. Like Big Ben, they always seem to play well in clutch situations, but play poorly the rest of the game. They have the same win pct as Big Ben, just as many super bowls, etc, so how come people can look past Roethlisberger's ineptitude for the first 57 minutes of every game and say "he just wins", but can't do the same for the offensive line? I understand that quarterback is the most important position on the field but the way people talk around here the offensive line is the thing keeping Roethlisberger from throwing for 4000 yards and 30 TDs every year, so obviously they feel it's pretty damn important. Why is Big Ben allowed to play poorly as long as the team wins and still be considered great, but the offensive line isn't?Do you know how many other teams had the luxury of scoring one offensive touchdown against the Cardinals through the first 57 minutes of a game last year and still had a chance to win the game at the end? Zero. If I could draft the Pittsburgh defense, I would take them with ANY quarterback over any of these three guys.

FreeBaGeL said:

People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games?

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I have watched every Steelers game Ben has played and you couldn't be further from the truth. I am not going to argue with you as we obviously have differing opinions on Roethlisberger but his stats and accomplishments speaks for itself.

Godsbrother said:

FreeBaGeL said:

People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games?

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I have watched every Steelers game Ben has played and you couldn't be further from the truth. I am not going to argue with you as we obviously have differing opinions on Roethlisberger but his stats and accomplishments speaks for itself.

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He's a notorious Steeler-hater. Best to just let it go. I keep asking the question when it comes to Ben that if the defense has carried him to 2 Super Bowls, then how do you explain the 0 Super Bowls they racked up in the 25 years prior to his arrival, when many of the defenses in that era were as good or better, and almost every team in that quarter-century stretch had a better line and a better running game? No one has been able to give me a decent answer yet. It's usually something like - "with the litany of garbage QBs they ran out there, how could they win? Any half-decent QB would have won at least 1 SB with those teams.." But no one did. Ben has 2 in 5 years, and both times he was probably the most important player in getting them to that trophy. People just don't want to see it, but those of us who truly watch every game know the score.

Evilgrin 72 said:

Godsbrother said:

FreeBaGeL said:

People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games?

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I have watched every Steelers game Ben has played and you couldn't be further from the truth. I am not going to argue with you as we obviously have differing opinions on Roethlisberger but his stats and accomplishments speaks for itself.

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He's a notorious Steeler-hater. Best to just let it go. I keep asking the question when it comes to Ben that if the defense has carried him to 2 Super Bowls, then how do you explain the 0 Super Bowls they racked up in the 25 years prior to his arrival, when many of the defenses in that era were as good or better, and almost every team in that quarter-century stretch had a better line and a better running game? No one has been able to give me a decent answer yet. It's usually something like - "with the litany of garbage QBs they ran out there, how could they win? Any half-decent QB would have won at least 1 SB with those teams.." But no one did. Ben has 2 in 5 years, and both times he was probably the most important player in getting them to that trophy. People just don't want to see it, but those of us who truly watch every game know the score.

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Do you really think the '95 Steelers couldn't have beaten the '05 Seahawks or '08 Cardinals? Think the '01 Steelers or '97 Steelers would have struggled with Jake Plummer and the Broncos? Strength of schedule and luck matters a lot when talking about one or two games.Additionally, Roethlisberger has played very well in the playoffs. That's great, and a reason Pittsburgh has won the Super Bowl two times; however, it doesn't make him any better than Jim Plunkett if he can't play well consistently. The different between average and great QBs is the ability to play well consistently; Eli Manning and Trent Dilfer had stretches where they played very well; so did Jake Plummer and Vinny Testaverde, and so did Roethlisberger and Plunkett. But, IMO, you're not a great QB just because you play 5 great games in your career, even if those great games happen to come at the most advantageous of times.The other issue is that '05 was a long time ago. Curtis Martin and Brooks Bollinger were playing for the Jets, if that helps jog your memory. So when looking at which QBs are the best in the league today, I don't think '05 deserves much, if any, weight. In '05, I think Ben was one of the best QBs in the league; I argued on these boards that he was underrated all season (and in fact, that December, I made a post saying I thought Pittsburgh would win the SB when very few other people thought they would). In '08 or '09? No. I don't want to call Roethlisberger stupid (although people have no problem saying that about Vince Young or JaMarcus Russell) but he makes decisions about as quickly as Leftwich throws passes. For all the talk about Roethlisberger's versatiliy, I think there are few offenses he could master. He has trouble reading defenses, make the right read in an instant, and getting his player the ball. If he played the way he did on a team with a poor defense, everyone would blame the QB for all the team's losses. He's well behind players like Manning, Brees, Brady and Rivers in terms of being an elite passer. On Pittsburgh, though, he's a solid fit.

No suprises in this poll. Rivers and Manning are very good NFL QBs but don't have the physical tools Ben has.

Chase Stuart said:

Evilgrin 72 said:

Godsbrother said:

FreeBaGeL said:

People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games?

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I have watched every Steelers game Ben has played and you couldn't be further from the truth. I am not going to argue with you as we obviously have differing opinions on Roethlisberger but his stats and accomplishments speaks for itself.

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He's a notorious Steeler-hater. Best to just let it go. I keep asking the question when it comes to Ben that if the defense has carried him to 2 Super Bowls, then how do you explain the 0 Super Bowls they racked up in the 25 years prior to his arrival, when many of the defenses in that era were as good or better, and almost every team in that quarter-century stretch had a better line and a better running game? No one has been able to give me a decent answer yet. It's usually something like - "with the litany of garbage QBs they ran out there, how could they win? Any half-decent QB would have won at least 1 SB with those teams.." But no one did. Ben has 2 in 5 years, and both times he was probably the most important player in getting them to that trophy. People just don't want to see it, but those of us who truly watch every game know the score.

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Do you really think the '95 Steelers couldn't have beaten the '05 Seahawks or '08 Cardinals? Think the '01 Steelers or '97 Steelers would have struggled with Jake Plummer and the Broncos? Strength of schedule and luck matters a lot when talking about one or two games.Additionally, Roethlisberger has played very well in the playoffs. That's great, and a reason Pittsburgh has won the Super Bowl two times; however, it doesn't make him any better than Jim Plunkett if he can't play well consistently. The different between average and great QBs is the ability to play well consistently; Eli Manning and Trent Dilfer had stretches where they played very well; so did Jake Plummer and Vinny Testaverde, and so did Roethlisberger and Plunkett. But, IMO, you're not a great QB just because you play 5 great games in your career, even if those great games happen to come at the most advantageous of times.

The other issue is that '05 was a long time ago. Curtis Martin and Brooks Bollinger were playing for the Jets, if that helps jog your memory. So when looking at which QBs are the best in the league today, I don't think '05 deserves much, if any, weight. In '05, I think Ben was one of the best QBs in the league; I argued on these boards that he was underrated all season (and in fact, that December, I made a post saying I thought Pittsburgh would win the SB when very few other people thought they would). In '08 or '09? No. I don't want to call Roethlisberger stupid (although people have no problem saying that about Vince Young or JaMarcus Russell) but he makes decisions about as quickly as Leftwich throws passes. For all the talk about Roethlisberger's versatiliy, I think there are few offenses he could master. He has trouble reading defenses, make the right read in an instant, and getting his player the ball. If he played the way he did on a team with a poor defense, everyone would blame the QB for all the team's losses. He's well behind players like Manning, Brees, Brady and Rivers in terms of being an elite passer. On Pittsburgh, though, he's a solid fit.

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I'm not calling him an elite passer, I'm calling him an elite quarterback. It's easy to point out Brooks Bollinger, but do you recall Roethlisberger badly outplaying Peyton Manning in the '05 playoffs as well? I really don't believe there are few offenses he could master. He currently calls at least 50% of Pittsburgh's plays - how many QBs in the league are given that kind of flexibility to run the offense how they see fit? Why give him that kind of long leash if he's "stupid"? No, he doesn't often fire the ball off to his primary read in the face of a heavy rush, but that's less a function of inability to do so as it is a belief that he can avoid the rush and make a better play downfield. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's a guy with supreme confidence in his ability - much like Favre. Does that mean you have to live with some bad interceptions and sacks sometimes? Yes. But he also makes more plays by eluding the rush and looking downfield than any other QB in the league.Finally, saying you're "not a great QB just because you play 5 great games in your career, even if those great games happen to come at the most advantageous of times" seems odd. While I agree in principle, the bottom line is that QBs in this league are largely evaluated by wins and losses. Hell, there were threads galore on here about Peyton being a choker and loser for not winning in big games until he finally got his. Likewise, Joe Montana is often named as the greatest QB of all time, even though he was never the passer that Peyton Manning is. McNabb is roundly ciriticzed in the media for never winning the big game. If guys are going to be knocked repeatedly for a failure to produce in pressure situations, then the converse also applies. Besides which, it's not like he sucks through the regular season and then comes up big in the clutch on the big stage. At this point, he has more 4th quarter/overtime game winning drives since he entered the league than any other QB, and is on pace to break all records in that unofficial stat. Likewise, he's also won more games since he came into the league than any other QB in NFL history did in their first 5 seasons. That's not a coincidence - the Steelers weren't the best "rudderless" team in NFL history and Roethlisberger just happened to luck his way into this situation. The guy was nails from the minute he first stepped onto the field and led them to 14 straight victories as a rookie (a team that I recall was about 6-8 in the 14 games prior to his arrival in the lineup.) And it certianly proves he's about more than just responding in big games. He's somewhat inconsistent, sure - but that goes with his style. He's a gunslinger like Favre, not a technician like Manning or Brady. Maybe some people see him as a lesser QB because of that, and that's fine. But we'll take him any day of the week, especially on Sundays.

If you had do it over, what should the order have been?

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Missed this poll back in January. Good topic.I think it's safe to say the Chargers would do the same thing they did. They got Rivers, Merriman, and Kaeding by drafting and trading Eli, and Rivers appears to be set to be a franchise NFL QB for many years to come. The Chargers haven't won any Super Bowls, and there is no reason to believe they would have with Eli or Roethlisberger (and without Merriman and Kaeding).I think it's safe to say the Steelers would again draft Roethlisberger. They have won two Super Bowls with him and he appears to be set to be a franchise NFL QB for many years to come. It is arguable that either Rivers or Eli could have had similar success in his place, but that is speculation, and I'm sure the Steelers view Ben as the best of the three.I think it's very likely the Giants would do the same thing they did, given they won a Super Bowl and are a strong contender for another in the near term with Eli and he appears to be set to be a franchise QB for many years to come. However, I think Eli has more to prove as a passer than the other two, and it is worth considering whether they would have done as well or better, and be better set for the future, had they not traded for Eli. They could have drafted and kept either Rivers or Roethlisberger, and had the extra picks they traded away in that deal. That said, like the Steelers, if they could go back knowing what they know now, they would probably stick with Eli, as I assume they like him more than the others... they did on draft day, and I think they are happy with their results since then.Oakland took Robert Gallery at #2; Washington took Sean Taylor at #5; Cleveland took Kellen Winslow Jr. at #6; Detroit took Roy Williams at #7; Atlanta took Deangelo Hall at #8; Jacksonville took Reggie Williams at #9; and Houston took Dunta Robinson at #10. I'm pretty sure every one of those teams would take one of these three QBs if they could go back knowing what they know now.Some people have interpreted this question as how they compare from here forward, ignoring what has happened, but I think that ignores the "knowing what you know now" part of the question. Looking at their past performance, I think Roethlisberger deserves a lot of credit for starting from day one and performing well, albeit in about as favorable a situation as a QB can get (great defense, running game, coaching, receiving targets, not having to attempt more than 295 passes in either of his first two seasons).Actually, all three QBs have been in favorable situations since they became full time starters. I'd say Ben's has been most favorable, followed by Eli, followed by Rivers. The coaching, defenses, and running games have been more consistently good in Pittsburgh and New York, and those teams have had very good veteran WRs almost the entire time (Ward and Burress). Rivers has had a good TE and receiving RB all along but didn't have any particularly good WRs until just last year when Jackson emerged.Of course, I like Rivers the best, so if I were drafting, I'd take him over the other two. I think he showed last year what he is capable of, and I doubt either of the other two will ever have a season like that. Eli really wasn't a particularly good QB in his first 4 seasons, but he may finally have turned the corner... I'd like to see another good season to make sure. So I'd take Roethlisberger second. That said, it's close. I think Roethlisberger is a bit overrated as a QB due to the Steelers' success on his watch. I mean, he deserves a lot of credit for it, I'm just not convinced that he is a great passer. I don't put as much stock in his first two seasons, since he didn't have to attempt many passes for the Steelers to be successful... and he was an average passer in two of the past three seasons.So I voted Rivers - Ben - Eli.

Chase Stuart said:

Do you really think the '95 Steelers couldn't have beaten the '05 Seahawks or '08 Cardinals?

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The 05 Seawhawks were a extremely good team. I'd easily pick them over the 95 Steelers, or even in a rematch against the 05 Steelers.

I think Ben has the most talent, but he's simply way too injury prone. And yes, being injury prone is a real phenomenon. In particular, he's taken way too many concussions, and medical studies have shown that people with a history of concussions are FAR more likely to get them in the future. I think at some point in the next couple years Ben is likely to take that inevitable BIG hit a la Steve Young that makes him hang his cleats up for good.

This really comes down to Rivers vs Eli for me, and Rivers is the easy choice.

Rivers, Manning, Roethlisberger is the correct call.

Evilgrin 72 said:

Godsbrother said:

FreeBaGeL said:

People love to talk about Big Ben's scrambling because it worked so well in the super bowl. That was one game. Do you watch other games?

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I have watched every Steelers game Ben has played and you couldn't be further from the truth. I am not going to argue with you as we obviously have differing opinions on Roethlisberger but his stats and accomplishments speaks for itself.

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He's a notorious Steeler-hater. Best to just let it go.

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I have absolutely nothing against the Steelers, I am completely indifferent to them. Nor do I have anything against Roethlisberger. In fact, if you go back a couple years, you'll see me arguing that he was poised to become a great QB. It just never happened.What I am notorious for is thinking that Big Ben even being involved in discussions about great QBs here in 2009 makes him one of the most overrated players I've ever come across.

Evilgrin72 said:

I'm not calling him an elite passer, I'm calling him an elite quarterback. It's easy to point out Brooks Bollinger, but do you recall Roethlisberger badly outplaying Peyton Manning in the '05 playoffs as well? I really don't believe there are few offenses he could master. He currently calls at least 50% of Pittsburgh's plays - how many QBs in the league are given that kind of flexibility to run the offense how they see fit? Why give him that kind of long leash if he's "stupid"? No, he doesn't often fire the ball off to his primary read in the face of a heavy rush, but that's less a function of inability to do so as it is a belief that he can avoid the rush and make a better play downfield. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's a guy with supreme confidence in his ability - much like Favre. Does that mean you have to live with some bad interceptions and sacks sometimes? Yes. But he also makes more plays by eluding the rush and looking downfield than any other QB in the league.

Finally, saying you're "not a great QB just because you play 5 great games in your career, even if those great games happen to come at the most advantageous of times" seems odd. While I agree in principle, the bottom line is that QBs in this league are largely evaluated by wins and losses. Hell, there were threads galore on here about Peyton being a choker and loser for not winning in big games until he finally got his. Likewise, Joe Montana is often named as the greatest QB of all time, even though he was never the passer that Peyton Manning is. McNabb is roundly ciriticzed in the media for never winning the big game. If guys are going to be knocked repeatedly for a failure to produce in pressure situations, then the converse also applies. Besides which, it's not like he sucks through the regular season and then comes up big in the clutch on the big stage. At this point, he has more 4th quarter/overtime game winning drives since he entered the league than any other QB, and is on pace to break all records in that unofficial stat. Likewise, he's also won more games since he came into the league than any other QB in NFL history did in their first 5 seasons. That's not a coincidence - the Steelers weren't the best "rudderless" team in NFL history and Roethlisberger just happened to luck his way into this situation. The guy was nails from the minute he first stepped onto the field and led them to 14 straight victories as a rookie (a team that I recall was about 6-8 in the 14 games prior to his arrival in the lineup.) And it certianly proves he's about more than just responding in big games. He's somewhat inconsistent, sure - but that goes with his style. He's a gunslinger like Favre, not a technician like Manning or Brady. Maybe some people see him as a lesser QB because of that, and that's fine. But we'll take him any day of the week, especially on Sundays.

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That about sums it up

Philip's teams consistently fall short of expectations.

Eli is clearly the 3rd-best QB of the '04 draft.

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

Ben is one of a very select qb to make 3 superbowls. Hard to argue against him.

ben, eli, rivers.........is rivers a better passer? sure....but he hasnt won a ring yet and eli was instrumental to one when nobody gave the giants a chance.

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

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By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

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By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

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I was watching the game where they were up 24-3 at the half. Did you want the Steelers to go 5-wide all second half?Edit: Good job leaving out the TD he ran for, and the fact that the safety wasn't his fault.

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

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By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

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Yeah disregard Ben's rush TD and clutch scrambles for 1st downs. Safety play was center's fault. He didn't play lights out obviously, but he played good enough for the W and for his 3rd Superbowl appearance.

rivers is the best qb of the 3.

ben and eli have had better teams.

Interesting that Raider Nation brought back this thread tonight. I feel even stronger that it's Ben, Rivers, then Eli- and at this point, Eli may be trailing the other two by quite a bit.

spider321 said:

rivers is the best qb of the 3.ben and eli have had better teams.

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SD had a terrible team this year they only ranked #1 and #1 on D and O for most of the season.

spider321 said:

rivers is the best qb of the 3.

ben and eli have had better teams.

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Thats a good excuse.No thank you to Rivers in Pitt, instead of Ben. Pitt wouldnt win nearly as many games in the playoffs. But the passing stats would be loftier.

The Steeler team is built for Ben and Ben is built for the Steeler team. He is better option if winning is your priority. Especially if he has to lead them to these wins.

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

Click to expand...

By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

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Winning>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Passing stats.Its a sport called football. Not a college math theorem class.

Choke said:

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

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By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

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Winning>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Passing stats.Its a sport called football. Not a college math theorem class.

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Any QB could have won with that Steelers running game and defensive performance today. It's not 1-on-1.

Truman said:

Choke said:

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

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By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?

I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

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Winning>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Passing stats.Its a sport called football. Not a college math theorem class.

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Any QB could have won with that Steelers running game and defensive performance today. It's not 1-on-1.

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There are more ways to skin a cat (win) then putting up passing yards. And not any QB would have made the physical moves needed, like Ben did today.

People like Brady, Manning and Rivers often get worked in those type of situations. Ben thrives.

He is far different then almost any other QB. And its about far more then todays game.

Choke said:

Truman said:

Choke said:

FreeBaGeL said:

Raider Nation said:

All Ben does is win... any way he has to.

Click to expand...

By cheering really loudly for his defense?Why would you bump this on a day where he went 10-19 for 133yds with 0 TDs, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles, and a safety?I'm sure Eli and Rivers could have never hoped to put up that line today.

Click to expand...

Winning>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Passing stats.Its a sport called football. Not a college math theorem class.

Click to expand...

Any QB could have won with that Steelers running game and defensive performance today. It's not 1-on-1.

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There are more ways to skin a cat (win) then putting up passing yards.

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Yeah, like with the running game and defense.

Truman said:

Yeah, like with the running game and defense.

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Like being able to handle a pass rush every snap when you are the Steeler QB. Rivers? Rivers? gtfooh with Rivers. You wanna tout Brady and Peyton? Im all for it. Knock your socks off. (Might be another thread though)

It's an inspiring story. How one QB overcame playing alongside the league's best defense and a running back restricted to just 121 yards to lead his team to glory.

Choke said:

Truman said:

Yeah, like with the running game and defense.

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Like being able to handle a pass rush every snap when you are the Steeler QB. Rivers? Rivers? gtfooh with Rivers. You wanna tout Brady and Peyton? Im all for it. Knock your socks off. (Might be another thread though)

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The Steelers o-line is garbage in pass blocking and they better hope Pouncey is ready in 2 weeks. That is the weakest unit on the Steeler team and one where Big Ben's mobility is exceptional.