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**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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Posted (edited)

Kitchens has been bad enough so far that I wouldn't really blame anyone for saying he should be fired. 

The game plan is fricken terrible.  We can't pass protect well enough for the pass routes we want to hit to develop, but let's just keep doing that over and over again until our QB starts hearing footsteps and running from shadows? It's not just this game. 

Mayfield missing a lot of throws isn't helping either, but changing it up to run some more quick hitting stuff can also get the QB in a rhythm in addition to compensating for inadequate offensive line play. 

Edited by kittenmittens
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amnesiac said:


sorry, but these lazy Manziel/Mayfield comparisons need to stop.

Manziel was a lazy coke-head with no actual football skills.


Then give Mayfield a drug test because he was existing in a different reality tonight.

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amnesiac said:


please link to a game that Manziel did better.


link

21-of-31 for 270 with 1 TD and 1 INT.

But really, I could have linked to any of Manziel's career games. Mayfield posted a 13.2 passer rating tonight. In Johnny Manziel's entire career, he never posted a passer rating that low.
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Posted (edited)

Do we give up draft picks for Trent Williams or just accept that we are what we are for this year and roll the dice?

Obviously he wouldnt fix everything but our OL has games where they are overmatched.

Edited by franchise punter
Asdf

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4 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

He's making the OL look worse than it really is. 

 

3 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Not a strength, sure. Wasnt ever supposed to be. Wasnt the expectation. Sure, once San Fran could just pin their ears back it was over tonight, but we didn't get there in the first place because of the OL. They are not the problem. 

 

3 hours ago, franchise punter said:

Do we give up draft picks for Trent Williams or just accept that we are what we are for this year and roll the dice?

Obviously he wouldnt fix everything but our OL has games where they are overmatched.

Panthers OL looked over matched in the first two games.  Despite injuries taking their toll, adding a QB with a pocket presence made them look serviceable.

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6 hours ago, kittenmittens said:

Kitchens has been bad enough so far that I wouldn't really blame anyone for saying he should be fired. 

The game plan is fricken terrible.  We can't pass protect well enough for the pass routes we want to hit to develop, but let's just keep doing that over and over again until our QB starts hearing footsteps and running from shadows? It's not just this game. 

Mayfield missing a lot of throws isn't helping either, but changing it up to run some more quick hitting stuff can also get the QB in a rhythm in addition to compensating for inadequate offensive line play. 

You are hired. It's pathetic that grown men coaching in the NFL are so stupid that they can't figure out the obvious. The idiot in CIN is the same way. PiT did it right in front of his face and couldn't figure out that he should be calling the same sort of quick pass plays with an OL that totally blows.

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7 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Not a strength, sure. Wasnt ever supposed to be. Wasnt the expectation. Sure, once San Fran could just pin their ears back it was over tonight, but we didn't get there in the first place because of the OL. They are not the problem. 

Are you saying this pathetic OL, that gives Mayfield 2 seconds Mac is not a problem? Compared to last year, it is night and day. 

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Just now, lod001 said:

Are you saying this pathetic OL, that gives Mayfield 2 seconds Mac is not a problem? Compared to last year, it is night and day. 

Mayfield was a panicked disaster in the pocket last night. It wasnt the first time this season either. He drops too deep, ball pats, double clutches, then tentatively rolls right if the first read isnt there. That's where it starts. Nothing up front matters as long as that guy is in the pocket and not the guy from last year. 

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7 hours ago, Todem said:

When your OL is one of the worst in the league.....it does not matter.....they cannot block hence they cannot move the football nor throw the football when Mayfield is scared for his life. He looks terrified. He has the yips. He is shell shocked. 

Pretty simply to see that. He looks like a nervous wreck behind that OL. That is the main source of the infection on this team. They are not a post season football team....no freaking way. They are getting mauled in the trenches. That is where football is won and lost. Watch last nights game? KC was exposed too.

The Browns are averaging 5.0 yards per carry rushing the ball. Bosa destroyed the LT last night, but a good number of times where Mayfield has fled the pocket this year he wasn’t actually under pressure yet, or he was flushed because he simply held the ball way too long looking confused. 
 

The O-line hasn’t been great in pass protection, but Mayfield is making them look worse.

Trust me, as a Bills fan who watched Tyrod Taylor do it and who watched Josh Allen do it last year and some this year, I know what this looks like.

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I don't think talks of firing the coach is inappropriate at all. He looks overwhelmed. Looks to me like maybe you kept the wrong coordinator as the head coach too.

Kitchens looks totally clueless standing on the side. He has no answers. Reminds me of Caldwell when he was in Detroit. Deer in headlights. 

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Now THAT was a ####### curbstomp...just a week off @MAC_32

And that's about all I gotta say about that.

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my goodness they looked awful. 
 

but are we really going back to “fire the coach, bench the QB mode”?

weren’t people talking about playoffs last week?

this rollercoaster ride is making me nauseous. 

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4 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

my goodness they looked awful. 
 

but are we really going back to “fire the coach, bench the QB mode”?

weren’t people talking about playoffs last week?

this rollercoaster ride is making me nauseous. 

No. Hot taeker's gonna hot taek. Ignore the over reactions. It's simple minded foolishness.

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Sick of dumb penalties.  Sick of running 5 wide sets inside the 10 yard line.  Sick of WRs dropping easy balls.  Sick of Mayfield's terrible pocket presence.  

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They are getting trounced by teams they should at least compete with. And it’s past the point of just being complacent and having to light a fire. Kitchens is totally out of his league. This is not a rebuilding team. An average coach should be able to make this team .500.  Kitchens is therefore below average.  Hire slow fire fast

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Wilks got his ### kicked last night by Shanahan who had two weeks to sit and prepare.

Baker looked like ####. 

Freddie using at TE to block Bosa mano-a-mano?  What in the natural #### was that???

The schedule made this an incredibly difficult game for the Browns

Quote

 

The San Francisco 49ers had two weeks to prepare for the Cleveland Browns, who had to make the long trip out to the West Coast and it looked like it. 

...the Browns were beaten by alignment. Steve Wilks has been fantastic this year in terms of game plans and getting players in position to play good defense. In this game, he was soundly beaten by Kyle Shanahan.

Specifically, the amount of times the 49ers would line up with inline tight ends with a defensive end head up on the tackle, giving up outside leverage. Whether it was a reach block or a down block from the tight end, the 49ers had all kinds of options and used them all at various points in the game.

...Baker Mayfield was dreadful and he's struggling when it comes to facing teams that can generate pressure without being forced to blitz him. In the three games he's faced teams able to get heavy pressure with four or five, dropping six or seven into coverage, namely the Tennessee Titans, Los Angeles Rams and 49ers, he's developing awful habits.

He doesn't get rid of the ball on time. Some of this is due to the fact no one is open. Mayfield then tries to extend the play, often rolling to his right and allowing the pressure to track him down for the sack.

...here are questions that need to be asked the offensive coaching staff that likely won't have satisfying answers.

The Browns are down David Njoku. Demetrius Harris has been ineffective to put it kindly. Pharaoh Brown was good against the Baltimore Ravens, but every other game has been a struggle. Ricky Seals-Jones is intriguing receiving threat, but can't block.

And yet, the Browns are not only continuing to often have two tight ends out there, they aren't just using them to help the offensive tackles block. On any number of occasions, the Browns had a tight end trying to single block Nick Bosa in the run and even passing game. And considering what Bosa did to Greg Robinson and Joel Bitonio on some choice plays, it's not a surprise how the tight ends did.

The Browns have who they have for the time being up front and if they can't count on them, they have to account for them. They do try to do things like screens and creative run concepts to help them, which is helpful and has proven to work. To seemingly understand the problem, work to deal with it and then also have situations where they have mediocre tight ends single blocking a defensive end like Bosa is two steps forward, one step back.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Judge Smails said:

They are getting trounced by teams they should at least compete with. And it’s past the point of just being complacent and having to light a fire. Kitchens is totally out of his league. This is not a rebuilding team. An average coach should be able to make this team .500.  Kitchens is therefore below average.  Hire slow fire fast

they hired a first time head coach. 
 

he will have to learn on the job.  
 

he’s 2-3, let’s not hit the panic button just yet. 

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Losing any confidence I had in Kitchens: What was Beckham doing on the field to return a punt with 7:30 left in the game and the Browns losing 28-3? He hadn’t returned a punt all year. I asked Kitchens about that. He said “Odell catches punts every day in practice and we decided to give him a whirl at it.”

Genius.

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7 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Losing any confidence I had in Kitchens: What was Beckham doing on the field to return a punt with 7:30 left in the game and the Browns losing 28-3? He hadn’t returned a punt all year. I asked Kitchens about that. He said “Odell catches punts every day in practice and we decided to give him a whirl at it.”

Genius.

Don't let me stop you from ax grinding though

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, amnesiac said:

they hired a first time head coach. 
 

he will have to learn on the job.  
 

he’s 2-3, let’s not hit the panic button just yet. 

Still a talented team.   Not sure what happened to the D but the O needs to continue to have everything flow through Chubb.   Targeting OBJ 8 times/game should be mandatory.   He is a great WR.   Use him.  

Edited by DocHolliday

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Not the issue tonight. Wide receivers were bad, Baker worse, and Shannahan schooled us on the other side of the ball.

Agree with a lot of what you’ve said so far (still catching up), but how do you write this and not mention the OL as an issue last night?

 

ok now I read all your posts, no need to beat a dead horse by replying here.

Edited by Bobcat10

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26 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

Agree with a lot of what you’ve said so far (still catching up), but how do you write this and not mention the OL as an issue last night?

 

ok now I read all your posts, no need to beat a dead horse by replying here.

I hope it doesnt get distorted into that I think the OL is playing well. It's not. I just dont think it's a priority problem needing addressed. Much like last year as is a functional offense can exist. They're just a convenient scapegoat because of a preconceived bias. Nobody on that unit is any different than they were before. Regression has occurred elsewhere. 

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Some thoughts..

My main issue with the OL is that the 2 games where we’ve seen this offense at its very worst (Tenn and SF imo), those opponents realized very early in the game they could generate quick pressures on Baker while only bringing their front 4 (usually dropping 7 into zone packages). Our tackles are horrid too. This is a problem and if some people don’t think so that’s ok.

Maybe Vernon is helping Myles get to the QB overall, I’m not really sure (but sorta doubt it). I haven’t been impressed. Not good against the run, doesn’t shed the initial block. Seems like this trade is a big loss 5 weeks into the season. Someone educate me if I’m wrong. 

I still don’t have a good feeling about Monken and his influence on the offense. 

Higgins is a big missing void for Baker, more than some people want to admit. Same goes for Njoku. His 2 fav red zone guys too.

Do we still get steamrolled if Callaway makes the easy catch and it’s 14-10? Similar to the Henry screen (although not a botch by the refs this time), it’s a game altering type play.

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20 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I hope it doesnt get distorted into that I think the OL is playing well. It's not. I just dont think it's a priority problem needing addressed. Much like last year as is a functional offense can exist. They're just a convenient scapegoat because of a preconceived bias. Nobody on that unit is any different than they were before. Regression has occurred elsewhere. 

No I didn’t take it as you saying they’re playing well.
 

I thought Robinson was an upgrade compared to Harrison last year. This year it feels like he is Harrison. You’re right in that Hubbard was never any good so it’s hard to regress there.
 

Obviously RG has had major regression as a position.
 

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It's probably at least partially confirmation bias, but I think the Ogbah trade has been the bigger net loss than Zeitler. As I argued at the time you can find Murray's on the street. And we did. His name is Burris. Ogbah stepped his game up and Vernon would probably be more effective in a 40 snap role. And Kush has been fine. 

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6 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

It's probably at least partially confirmation bias, but I think the Ogbah trade has been the bigger net loss than Zeitler. As I argued at the time you can find Murray's on the street. And we did. His name is Burris. Ogbah stepped his game up and Vernon would probably be more effective in a 40 snap role. And Kush has been fine. 

I’ve seen Kush get put on his tush multiple times off the snap. He has seemed adequate though which is essentially your point the last 2 pages. It’s regression to me only because of how good Zeitler is. 

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3 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

I’ve seen Kush get put on his tush multiple times off the snap. He has seemed adequate though which is essentially your point the last 2 pages. It’s regression to me only because of how good Zeitler is. 

Fair assessment. And I think the trade off would be a good one if we still had Ogbah. We don't so we have a downgrade at RG and a fatigued DE when we could have had a quality rotation. I dont think Vernon has been as bad as the box score indicates as he creates a decent amount of pressure. I just think he'd be efficient on less reps. 

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OBJ Film Review
 

“For the first time, Mayfield admitted Wednesday that Beckham missing training camp “definitely hurt” their timing. That isn’t an excuse. It is completely accurate. Just as Mayfield isn’t trusting his offensive line in pass protection, he does not trust Beckham to be where he should on these timing routes.

That isn’t a knock on Mayfield or a dig at Beckham’s route running. Rather, these two just have not had enough live reps together for such intermediate routes to work efficiently.”
 

perhaps all the time he missed was more important than some thought?

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34 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

OBJ Film Review
 

“For the first time, Mayfield admitted Wednesday that Beckham missing training camp “definitely hurt” their timing. That isn’t an excuse. It is completely accurate. Just as Mayfield isn’t trusting his offensive line in pass protection, he does not trust Beckham to be where he should on these timing routes.

That isn’t a knock on Mayfield or a dig at Beckham’s route running. Rather, these two just have not had enough live reps together for such intermediate routes to work efficiently.”
 

perhaps all the time he missed was more important than some thought?

All I see is mayfield doesn't read a defense or even look at beckham. He was open all night vs san fran and doesn't go through his progressions. He picks were he is going with it before the snap. That needs to change.

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1 hour ago, RealReactions said:

All I see is mayfield doesn't read a defense or even look at beckham. He was open all night vs san fran and doesn't go through his progressions. He picks were he is going with it before the snap. That needs to change.

Not sure I understand this thought....If he knows where he's going and it's open, why is he holding onto the ball so long?  If it's not open, why is he moving his head around looking at other receivers if he's not going through his progression?  While I agree with some of it, I don't think it's as absolute as you put it out to be.

I do agree with his trust issues...and the only way to fix that is with more time/practice/reps.

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On 10/8/2019 at 10:06 AM, Bracie Smathers said:

Wilks got his ### kicked last night by Shanahan who had two weeks to sit and prepare.

Matt Harmon‏Verified account @MattHarmon_BYB

Interesting note from @MoveTheSticks on his pod: “There are more people spending time in the league studying Kyle Shanahan on a weekly basis than Sean McVay.” This was even true when they were losing, as teams especially wanted to study what they were doing in the run game.

1:43 PM - 9 Oct 2019

----------------------------------

Yep.  Shanny is 'wicked-smhaaart'.👨‍🎓

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2 hours ago, Peak said:

Not sure I understand this thought....If he knows where he's going and it's open, why is he holding onto the ball so long?  If it's not open, why is he moving his head around looking at other receivers if he's not going through his progression?  While I agree with some of it, I don't think it's as absolute as you put it out to be.

I do agree with his trust issues...and the only way to fix that is with more time/practice/reps.

All 3 videos baker doesn't move his head. He stares at were is going to go with it.  The reason he holds it for so long could be trust or he just isn't a good qb. He is waiting for the receiver to "appear" open before throwing it instead of throwing him open. Go rewatch the clips you posted. He doesn't spin his head left or right. From the snap he is looking one direction and patting the ball waiting for the reciever to "get open" instead of reading who already is open. Which was odell the majority of the night

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4 hours ago, RealReactions said:

All 3 videos baker doesn't move his head. He stares at were is going to go with it.  The reason he holds it for so long could be trust or he just isn't a good qb. He is waiting for the receiver to "appear" open before throwing it instead of throwing him open. Go rewatch the clips you posted. He doesn't spin his head left or right. From the snap he is looking one direction and patting the ball waiting for the reciever to "get open" instead of reading who already is open. Which was odell the majority of the night

Odell, is that you?

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Why are we this stupid?  Up 8 with under 2 minutes, inside the 10, and we are hurrying up????  And throwing an INT????

So stupid.  Run run run FG end of half.  Total idiocy.  Both kitchens and Mayfield should be fined for that level of stupidity

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It's hard to botch the final 2 minutes any worse than that.  So awful.  We did exactly what seattle was hoping we do.  Just so stupid.  No excuse for that.

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That illegal block called on landry late 3rd quarter might be the worst call I have ever seen

  He blocked a guy that ran right into him

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These WRs can't catch.

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13 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

What are people feeling about the head coach?  

i feel like he’s making some dumb mistakes, but not ready to give up 6 games in.  
 

I’ll keep saying it: they hired a first time head coach. it’s. going. to. take. time. 

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my question is, are all of these tipped ball interceptions a fluke, or does it have something to do with the way Mayfield throws the ball?  (regarding his height and the angle he has to throw from)

and before anyone says he throws the ball “too hard” i’ll refer you to Brett Favre, whose coaches always said something to the effect of shut up and catch the ball.  
 

i’ll hang up and listen. 

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14 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

i feel like he’s making some dumb mistakes, but not ready to give up 6 games in.  
 

I’ll keep saying it: they hired a first time head coach. it’s. going. to. take. time. 

Those are my thoughts. I usually let the coach really prove that he is terrible before I pile on but Freddie is heading down that road rapidly. Hard to say that he didn't cost them the game with that hurry up crap at the end of the 2nd half and the dumb challenge to waste a timeout so you couldn't challenge the late 3rd down catch. His game management is terrible.

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Ryan McCrystal✔@Ryan_McCrystal

Why is backup running back Dontrell Hilliard playing receiver for the Browns in the final three minutes of a one-score game? And who is making these terrible decisions?

--------------------------------------------------------

📽️  Freddie challenge blown time out loses challenge and TD

Tucker Boynton‏ @Tucker_TnL

Freddie Kitchens

  • challenges the previous play as his RB is going into the end zone
  • loses the challenge
  • then runs the same play and fails to convert on 4th down Browns football.

--------------------------------------------------------

Bottlegate@Bottlegate

Pete Carroll playing chess while Freddie Kitchens plays Hungry Hungry Hippos

3:54 PM - Oct 13, 2019

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OK, let’s nip this one in the bud: Chubb had a walk in TD because the Seahawks stopped playing, because the refs blew the whistle, because Kitchens threw the challenge flag. 
 

everybody got it now?

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56 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

i feel like he’s making some dumb mistakes, but not ready to give up 6 games in.  
 

I’ll keep saying it: they hired a first time head coach. it’s. going. to. take. time. 

Might want to find something else to talk about for the next 2 weeks because that's pretty much all we are going to hear. 

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