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Cleveland Browns (12 Viewers)

geneyus said:
Besides the OL, Freddie is in over his head. Yesterday was a prime example. He needs to give up play calling. With a 20-6 lead and then throwing the ball instead of leaning on Chubb was stupid. Play clock and challenge flag management is abysmal. He panics and isn't wired to be a HC.
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I am skeptical about the rationale that was applied at the end of the first half.

That whole sequence in the 3rd quarter was just bizarre, but that was a Landry TD so I don't fault him throwing the challenge flag there. Optics it obviously would have been better to throw it sooner, but again - that whole sequence was bizarre.

They were leaning on Chubb plenty and 20 points wasn't going to win that game, so I don't follow that rationale being thrown out there.

 
Godsbrother said:
True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   
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Awful and lousy are hyperbole. Inconsistent though? Yep, that's fair. Ball placement and pocket management, specifically. He's done well in the pocket 2 of the last 3 games, so there's at least progress there.

 
geneyus said:
With a 20-6 lead
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See, this cannot be overlooked.  Freddie (and Monken) prepared the offense that came out firing and Freddie called the plays to build that huge lead.

The missed extra point hit the first foul note.  Blocked punt?  Right when we had the lead?  A HC who can devote time to ALL phases of the team is a good thing IMHO.  I don't think these 'perfectly ill-timed' mistakes are just happenstance.  You feel the void.  A big play/lead and then at the worst possible moment, tipped pass in the RZ for an INT, missed XP, blocked punt, fumbled PR, strip-sack.  That isn't normal or sheer coincidence or bad luck.  Their is a reason.

Their is also a reason why we built the lead in this game and in Baltimore but Freddie HAS to get ahead of the curve and not only anticipate 'worst-time-possible-mistakes' he has to be leaning into those moments expecting the best possible outcome and can't throw a challenge flag in the fourth when mathematically overturning what was called on a close play is a loss, not only of the challenge but it disrupts game flow, loss of further challenge, and critical loss of a time out in a close game.  

The frazzled look of a HC who doesn't realize basics of the challenge system is bad but the real world consequences are worse.

 
There was alot going on during that double time out fiasco.  Here's what I remember seeing.

Freddie was yelling (safe bet to the refs on the field), and yelling more, before he took the initial time out (early, I'll get to that later).  Initially, two thoughts came to mind.  Maybe he felt the play clock was not handled properly since there was some confusion if Landry was in or not, maybe he wanted it reset.  Or, I thought he was trying to possibly get the booth to review it since it was a potential scoring play....but I'm honestly not sure if that's possible.  Can the booth automatically review a goaline play that is NOT called a TD on the field?  I know if the play was ruled a TD, the booth would have looked at it as they always do.  I don't know if it works both ways but I don't think that's how it works.  I'm thinking Freddie might not either.

If he used that real time wisely before calling the initial time out instead of yelling, his people (they better exist) who review plays like that could/would have just told him to throw the red flag.  Here we avoid the wasted time out.  Further, he called the initial time out with around 12 seconds left on the play clock per my memory.  So again, he wasted the time he's afforded to decide on what to do with that little red flag as he had 10 more seconds before having to call the time out.  His brain said I know I can't get the play in and the players lined up in that amount of time....when instead he should have always just been concerned with the challenge and then call the time out if our people said not to challenge.  It was 4th down at the goaline, nobody would have batted an eye if he did that.  

I'm not sure what happened in the press conference after the game and how much this was talked about.  I'm only going by what I remember.  Just seems like Freddie is out of his element in some high pressure situations.  He's gotta learn just like this young dumb team he coaches.

Edit to add: yes, Landry was in and we should have only lost 1 time out anyways.  But, that's not the point.

 
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amnesiac said:
OBJ Film Review
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I think you guys should read/watch this one.  It's not behind the OBR pay wall.  

Burns breakdowns

Almost as important to me as the body of the article was this line:

Mayfield is certainly not trusting his offensive line, and there's some merit to why that is happening. He has taken some hits from a group who has not protected all too well in both camp and regular season games. The Browns defensive line got after Mayfield in camp and his outside the pocket nature started to show at those points. I am sure the seed of distrust was planted at that point. He knew his offensive line would be worse without Kevin Zeitler, but the extent of which nobody knew. The right guard shuffle through the off-season didn't help and now Mayfield is left feeling panicked and distrusting what he is seeing.
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anyone catch the Kitchens presser?

sounded like he was throwing a bunch of guys under the bus without naming names. 
 

paraphrasing:  Talent has gotten you to 2-4, now it’s time to commit to doing your job.  
 

 
amnesiac said:
anyone catch the Kitchens presser?

sounded like he was throwing a bunch of guys under the bus without naming names. 
 

paraphrasing:  Talent has gotten you to 2-4, now it’s time to commit to doing your job.  
 
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No.  And while I do understand some of the Freddie bashing to a point, I really think execution is a bigger problem than the plays being called at this point.  Casual observation.

Was he grilled about Higgins?  That's the stuff I'm fired up about.  

 
Bobcat10 said:
There was alot going on during that double time out fiasco.  Here's what I remember seeing.

Freddie was yelling (safe bet to the refs on the field), and yelling more, before he took the initial time out (early, I'll get to that later).  Initially, two thoughts came to mind.  Maybe he felt the play clock was not handled properly since there was some confusion if Landry was in or not, maybe he wanted it reset.  Or, I thought he was trying to possibly get the booth to review it since it was a potential scoring play....but I'm honestly not sure if that's possible.  Can the booth automatically review a goaline play that is NOT called a TD on the field?  I know if the play was ruled a TD, the booth would have looked at it as they always do.  I don't know if it works both ways but I don't think that's how it works.  I'm thinking Freddie might not either.

If he used that real time wisely before calling the initial time out instead of yelling, his people (they better exist) who review plays like that could/would have just told him to throw the red flag.  Here we avoid the wasted time out.  Further, he called the initial time out with around 12 seconds left on the play clock per my memory.  So again, he wasted the time he's afforded to decide on what to do with that little red flag as he had 10 more seconds before having to call the time out.  His brain said I know I can't get the play in and the players lined up in that amount of time....when instead he should have always just been concerned with the challenge and then call the time out if our people said not to challenge.  It was 4th down at the goaline, nobody would have batted an eye if he did that.  
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This is what I think. Key word, think:

One official ruled fumble and another ruled touchdown. He obviously wanted clarification and given all of the issues with that officiating crew if someone told me it took them a while to clarify I wouldn't be any surprised. They conferenced for a while before getting over to him. Then he looks up from the delay and sees a play clock at :1X and screams wtf reset that thing. You couldn't tell me what the outcome of that last play was. He frustratingly called timeout then spent the timeout lobbing for it back cause it was their mistake. He is awarded the timeout back and gets the play call in. Then while they're lining whoever is responsible for relaying challenges finally is able to get his attention and tells him Landry scored. Since it wasn't obvious from one angle and needed spliced together from two different camera angles I'd expect this to not be instant. Once you see the two angles I think it is obvious and the refs quite simply messed up the challenge, but again - throw the flag isn't going to be relayed to him immediately. So he throws the challenge flag.

But while all of that is (okay, may be) explainable it also confirms he's put too much on his plate gameday. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
And while I do understand some of the Freddie bashing to a point, I really think execution is a bigger problem than the plays being called at this point.  Casual observation.
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That's about where I am. Some of it is self inflicted by Freddie, but I don't think the undisciplined nature of this team is necessarily (totally) on him. Yes, that's the coach's responsibility. He certainly bares some blame, but I'm skeptical whether what we have seen would be much better under different leadership.

 
MAC_32 said:
That's about where I am. Some of it is self inflicted by Freddie, but I don't think the undisciplined nature of this team is necessarily (totally) on him. Yes, that's the coach's responsibility. He certainly bares some blame, but I'm skeptical whether what we have seen would be much better under different leadership.
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Right, and I for one was totally in the camp of bashing Hue for his undisciplined teams.  I don't want to confuse discipline and execution though.  While they overlap, they are not one in the same.

MAC_32 said:
This is what I think. Key word, think:

One official ruled fumble and another ruled touchdown. He obviously wanted clarification and given all of the issues with that officiating crew if someone told me it took them a while to clarify I wouldn't be any surprised. They conferenced for a while before getting over to him. Then he looks up from the delay and sees a play clock at :1X and screams wtf reset that thing. You couldn't tell me what the outcome of that last play was. He frustratingly called timeout then spent the timeout lobbing for it back cause it was their mistake. He is awarded the timeout back and gets the play call in. Then while they're lining whoever is responsible for relaying challenges finally is able to get his attention and tells him Landry scored. Since it wasn't obvious from one angle and needed spliced together from two different camera angles I'd expect this to not be instant. Once you see the two angles I think it is obvious and the refs quite simply messed up the challenge, but again - throw the flag isn't going to be relayed to him immediately. So he throws the challenge flag.

But while all of that is (okay, may be) explainable it also confirms he's put too much on his plate gameday. 
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"I think" that's a good synopsis.  So they did give us the TO back?  I'm still confused with the entire situation I guess.

 
Bobcat10 said:
"I think" that's a good synopsis.  So they did give us the TO back?  I'm still confused with the entire situation I guess.
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Yes. Because we then lost the challenge and had two timeouts left after the Baker int at the end of the game. 

 
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Bobcat10 said:
Was he grilled about Higgins?  That's the stuff I'm fired up about.  
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yes. he simply said he just came off injury and thought he needed another week.  
 

they then asked if he was in his doghouse and he denied it.  then they asked him if he had a doghouse.  it was a strange exchange.  

 
amnesiac said:
yes. he simply said he just came off injury and thought he needed another week.  
 

they then asked if he was in his doghouse and he denied it.  then they asked him if he had a doghouse.  it was a strange exchange.  
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Playing Callaway week 5 with those results (and backlash) probably fogged this decision.  

 
Godsbrother said:
True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   
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Maybe Baker should be asked to do less if he isn't capable of doing what has been asked him so far this season.    The Steelers hid their QB last night by playing great D, running the ball, and throwing short passes.   Good teams find a way to win.     

 
He is due 11 million this year and 12 next year and is holding out?  Didnt realize that.

Maybe a 3rd.  He is gonna want a lot obviously

 
ghostguy123 said:
He is due 11 million this year and 12 next year and is holding out?  Didnt realize that.

Maybe a 3rd.  He is gonna want a lot obviously
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Still dumb. We have payday's coming up and need cheap, cost controlled draft picks as that's the best way to continue to sustain the quality of the team. 

We need to finish at worst 7-3 to make the playoffs and are expecting a guy that's been sitting on his couch to come in and instantly gel with the rest of the group. 

And this team's record if we had Trent Williams starting September 1? 2-4. 

Don't do it, Dorse. Don't ####### do it. 

 
You cant give up a 1st for a 31 year old OL no matter how good he has been. They had Joe Thomas for 11 years. That's what you want out of your LT.

 
Dawgs By Nature‏ @DawgsByNature

Just a reminder, the Browns turned that 2nd round pick into Nick Chubb. So yeah, that worked.

------------------------------------------------------

SpotracVerified account @spotrac

Brock Osweiler retires from the #NFL having earned $41.3M across 7 seasons w/ the #Broncos, #Browns, #Texans & #Dolphins. In 2017, Houston traded away a 2nd round pick to avoid paying him $16M. …

1:29 PM - 16 Oct 2019

 
lod001 said:
You cant give up a 1st for a 31 year old OL no matter how good he has been. They had Joe Thomas for 11 years. That's what you want out of your LT.
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Its a bad idea on multiple levels.

  • Right now our 2020 first round pick would be #7
  • He's 31
  • He's been injured and hasn't played a snap since last year
  • He'd have to learn on the fly while getting up to game shape/speed  
Dorsey's well aware of what pick he would be giving up and how waiting till next year's draft to land an OT prospect who is a decade younger would make much more sense.  If he does pull the trigger now then he'd better not deal next year's 1st.  The time to go after a big name/draft-expensive guy like Trent Williams in in the off-season so he could come in and have camp and settle in, not mid stream.

We've had issues at LT, RG, and RT on the O-Line.  We traded two picks for the OG from Buffalo so look for him to take over the RG spot during the BYE week.

Buffalo Bills trade offensive lineman Wyatt Teller to Cleveland Browns for draft picks

...Teller was a fifth-round pick of the Bills in 2018 out of Virginia Tech and started seven of the eight games he played. He was known to have a nasty streak in college which led the Bills to select him, but in his time last season he wasn’t all that effective, though no one on the Bills’ line was.

This was the impetus for general manager Brandon Beane going on a free agent shopping spree for offensive linemen, and then drafting Cody Ford in the second round. With the competition heated up, Teller didn’t play himself off the roster. In fact, he looked pretty good, albeit against other backups.
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Kush is soft and we haven't been able to punch out any short yardage plays behind him and that has hurt us on those odd looking pass plays down near the goal line.  Teller is big and strong Teller will come to Cleveland and immediately be one of the strongest players on the team and his insane strength dates back to his red-shirt season at Virginia Tech where coaches said he lived in the weight room.  and has a 'nasty streak' so here's hoping we see an improvement once he takes over but it should be noted it took Teller two months to get acclimated.  It would not take Trent Williams that long but it would still take time. 

The time to make a 'big move' paying high picks for an offensive lineman like Trent Williams is during the off season so he would get a full camp and know assignments.  Not now where we don't know what shape he's in let alone how long it would take him to get into game-shape and to learn assignments/assimilate.  

 
Bracie Smathers said:
Its a bad idea on multiple levels.
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Greg Robinson has trouble with speed rushers.  He's not the answer we're looking for, but he's decent most times.  

I can't give up the 2020 #1, but #2 is in play as well as future picks.  

DBs and WRs could provide a source of additional assets to add to the deal.

Timing & size of a new contract has to factor in.  3 years? 

 
daveR said:
Greg Robinson has trouble with speed rushers.  He's not the answer we're looking for, but he's decent most times.  

I can't give up the 2020 #1, but #2 is in play as well as future picks.  

DBs and WRs could provide a source of additional assets to add to the deal.

Timing & size of a new contract has to factor in.  3 years? 
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Before getting to the logistical issues, the difference between winning and losing in 2019 is not Greg Robinson or Chris Hubbard vs. Trent Williams. And then it's not as simple as just plugging in Williams to the existing roster beginning in 2020. It's plugging him in and (likely) deducting current player(s) from it, probably Joe Schobert. And that's a deal breaker. Kirksey is going to get whacked and if Vernon returns his cap # won't be $15.5 (among other things), but our current cap # is $168.6 before accounting for draft picks. Re-signing Schobert is the priority then figure out the rest of the cap, but there is not much space to work with. By all means, use the available funding. But do not use the funding AND draft capital on one (old, oft injured) player.

 
MAC_32 said:
Before getting to the logistical issues, the difference between winning and losing in 2019 is not Greg Robinson or Chris Hubbard vs. Trent Williams. And then it's not as simple as just plugging in Williams to the existing roster beginning in 2020. It's plugging him in and (likely) deducting current player(s) from it, probably Joe Schobert. And that's a deal breaker. Kirksey is going to get whacked and if Vernon returns his cap # won't be $15.5 (among other things), but our current cap # is $168.6 before accounting for draft picks. Re-signing Schobert is the priority then figure out the rest of the cap, but there is not much space to work with. By all means, use the available funding. But do not use the funding AND draft capital on one (old, oft injured) player.
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I don't follow the browns that close so I'm dumbfounded how they are close to the cap. They hardly have any good players not in rookie contracts.

 
voiceofunreason said:
I don't follow the browns that close so I'm dumbfounded how they are close to the cap. They hardly have any good players not in rookie contracts.
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They signed a bunch of guys to high dollar amounts the last 2 years, plus gotta remember a lot of good young guys will need to be resigned in a year or two.  

 
Source: NFL Network - Mike Garafolo

Washington Redskins OT Trent Williams won't be traded this season, according to Mike Garafolo of NFL Network Saturday, Oct. 19. Garafolo adds Cleveland Browns general manager John Dorsey made repeated attempts to acquire Williams but was told no. There are indications a deal could be made in the offseason.

 
The Man With No Name said:
Source: NFL Network - Mike Garafolo

Washington Redskins OT Trent Williams won't be traded this season, according to Mike Garafolo of NFL Network Saturday, Oct. 19. Garafolo adds Cleveland Browns general manager John Dorsey made repeated attempts to acquire Williams but was told no. There are indications a deal could be made in the offseason.
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Bruce Allen at work. "Let's show Trent. We'll refuse to trade him, then end up with 1/4 as much next year when he refuses to play again. Winning!"

 
MAC_32 said:
amnesiac said:
Ok, how about the line actually sucks even though you say it doesn’t?

there was one play that Mayfield nearly got crushed from the left and Hubbard got a penalty for holding on the right side.  he nearly got destroyed by both sides on one play, which should never happen. 
 

i appreciate your analysis but saying the oline is “below average” is being kind.  
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Never once when watching the game today did I ever think to myself they're a problem. If you vacuum it down to a play or two you can skewer every player on the field. 
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Dorsey attempted to trade for OT Trent Williams.

Report: Redskins not interested in trading OT Trent Williams despite John Dorsey's repeated attempts

Freddie says he is going to get 'the best' players on the offensive line.

Browns working on O-line shake-up: ‘It’s our job to get the best people out there,’ Freddie Kitchens says

-------------------------------------

Do you think they are happy with the offensive line?

I think we will see changes on the offensive line as soon as this Sunday.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
Dorsey attempted to trade for OT Trent Williams.

Report: Redskins not interested in trading OT Trent Williams despite John Dorsey's repeated attempts

Freddie says he is going to get 'the best' players on the offensive line.

Browns working on O-line shake-up: ‘It’s our job to get the best people out there,’ Freddie Kitchens says

-------------------------------------

Do you think they are happy with the offensive line?

I think we will see changes on the offensive line as soon as this Sunday.
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It's the wrong question. We aren't losing because of the line. 

 
MAC_32 said:
It's the wrong question. We aren't losing because of the line. 
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It is the primary contributing factor.

We have the second leading rusher in the NFL but our run blocking ranks 16th.  How is this possible?

2019 OFFENSIVE LINES Regular season totals, through Week 6 Revised as of 10/15/2019

Our 'Power Ranking' is 26th in the league for run blocking which pretty much nails what I've said about Kush at RG who has the lowest individual ranking on our line.  Grading the Browns’ offensive line: A unit in flux and searching for answers

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- At his Wednesday afternoon press conference, Browns general manager John Dorsey made it very clear: Tackles Greg Robinson and Chris Hubbard need to play better.

“I would like Greg to be more consistent," Dorsey said. "Just be more consistent as a football player.”

...So how is the offensive line doing so far this season? Let’s take a player-by-player look, then offer a grade:

Tackle

LT Greg Robinson (PFF grade: 67.8)

... Robinson is likely being benched for his lack of consistency.

There are times when he looks like the long-term answer and then other times he gets Baker Mayfield crushed or blows a run block assignment.

After the bye week, it sounds like Robinson will move to the bench. But with how inconsistently both tackles are playing, he could easily see the field again.

RT Chris Hubbard (PFF: 52.2)

Hubbard missed one game due to injury but his five starts make him a key part of this offensive line and his PFF grade indicates he is the second-weakest part of the unit. Where Hubbard is hurting Cleveland most is run blocking. PFF grades Hubbard as only a 40 overall run blocker, which explains why Nick Chubb is averaging a season-low 3.7 yards running off the right guard.

T Justin McCray (PFF: 64.1)

McCray started one game this season, a Week 3 loss to the Rams. He could see more opportunities after the bye week should Robinson be benched. In 121 snaps, McCray graded as a much better run blocker than pass blocker. In pass protection, he grades out at 53 overall compared to his 77.1 run block grade.

Guards

LG Joel Bitonio (PFF: 81.3)

RG Eric Kush (PFF: 48.0)

Kush wasn’t expected to start but won his training camp position battle against the recently traded Austin Corbett. Kush is not playing well, though. Pro Football Focus grades him as the lowest-performing Browns lineman. Of all 77 guards ranked by PFF, Kush is 65th.

Center

JC Tretter (PFF: 70.1)

Tretter joins Bitonio as the other bright spot at offensive line. Chubb is averaging 4.6 yards per carry running behind Tretter. Also, he ranks fifth among graded centers by PFF. Tretter is a team leader and, along with Bitonio, has only been flagged once.
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Our pass blocking ranks 26th in the league.

We can't get any power from the right side which kills us in short yardage/down near the goal line and that has been the reason behind some of the 'odd' pass play calls and turnovers in the RZ.  

The poor/inconsistent pass pro speaks for itself especially when the GM calls both tackles out in his PC.

 
amnesiac said:
why are they losing, and what do you think they did to correct the problem over the bye week?
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What do I think they did? :shrug:

What do I think they should have done? On the field - chemistry between Baker and his pass catchers with a dosage of subtle reminders to Baker about his pocket management the last 3 weeks - him managing it well @ BAL and vs. SEA and how pitiful he was @ SF. Off the field - situation management and play calling sequencing.

Defense - fundamentals. They lost their way leading into the bye. I think part of it was the lack of confidence in the offense I voiced over the last few weeks. Instead of doing their job they focused on making big plays, which led to them getting beat.

I understand at this point I'm fighting a losing battle when it comes to the OL. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and until I actually see it on the field no one is going to change mine. We'll see where the cards fall at the end of the season. I think you all, including Browns management apparently, are wrong about problem identification with this team. The OL is not good, but it also is not the problem. It can be schemed around. And I think it has. When good pocket manager Baker shows up anyway. But the drifter is a sitting duck. There's a time and a place to address the OL, but it probably isn't October. If a seller will give you a decent rental for a 4th round pick or whatever, by all means. Those generally don't exist though.

 
  Browns | Eli Ankou headed to Cleveland    Tue Oct 22, 02:14 PM

Jacksonville Jaguars DT Eli Ankou was signed to the active roster of the Cleveland Browns off the practice squad of the Jaguars on Tuesday, Oct. 22.

  Browns | Cleveland picks up Montrel Meander    Tue Oct 22, 02:27 PM

Free-agent DB Montrel Meander (Browns) was signed to the practice squad of the Cleveland Browns on Tuesday, Oct. 22.

 
"[John] Dorsey has really accumulated a high level of talent all the way across the board. We have five days now to do our best to prepare for a very good Browns team that has had extra time to prepare, they’ve already practiced for us [on Monday]. They’re way ahead of us, we have a lot of work to do. They’re extremely well-coached, have a lot of great players. So it’s a big challenge for us.''

kiss of death. 
 

i just hope it’s not a huge blow out.  

 
amnesiac said:
"[John] Dorsey has really accumulated a high level of talent all the way across the board. We have five days now to do our best to prepare for a very good Browns team that has had extra time to prepare, they’ve already practiced for us [on Monday]. They’re way ahead of us, we have a lot of work to do. They’re extremely well-coached, have a lot of great players. So it’s a big challenge for us.''

kiss of death. 
 

i just hope it’s not a huge blow out.  
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The Pats don't expect anyone to really believe they are worried about the Brown do they?

 
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