Just a heads up, I doubt the Vikings go LB in the first round. They have young LBs that have shown great potential. EJ Henderson will start next year. Nick Rogers (6th round pick 2002) is alreayd starting and will make plays when they keep him in the lineup. They also have Chris Claiborne, who was playing great until he got hurt. Mike Nattiel has also show potential and Raonall Smith would have been the starting in 2002, but hasn't been healthy since that pre-season.DE and CB are much bigger needs. I would also put WR, TE and OG above LB priority wise.
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HERD's '04 NFL Mock - Round 1 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Goat Herders
- Start date
not to hijack because it looks like this has been pretty much settled, but during their playing time players such as Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and Bruce Smith lacked class if you ask me. Remember the days of the Bickering Bills? Remember Thurman Thomas cursing at 10 year old fans who asked for his autograph? Remember Bruce Smith using the Super Bowl spotlight to further his own personal agendas, or falling asleep at the wheel, or getting suspended for drug use? Remember Andre Reed being a crybaby and getting a huge 15 yard penalty against the Redskins in SB XXVI when he slammed his helmet into the turf when he didn't get a call, or when he was ejected against the Dolphins in a playoff game for bumping into a ref? IMO, you are wearing the rosiest glasses imaginable if you think these guys epitomized class and that Winslow is some kind of monster that will never mature into a quality NFL player.Based on your criteria, I'm guessing you'd want the Bills to dump two of our best players in Eric Moulds and Nate Clements. Moulds because he is one of the biggest trash talkers in the league and has gotten several taunting penalties in his career recently. Clements because the guy celebrates up a storm any time he makes a routine play.The NFL is an emotional game and players are bound to lose a bit of control at times. It is a part of the game. Anyway, I can understand hating specific players or coaches and not wanting them on your team...I just don't agree with you on Winslow. IMO, he's a better kid than you give him credit for, his well publicized problems this season notwithstanding. He's a difference maker at the TE position, and he'd give Bledsoe's his best TE target since Ben Coates. Personally, I'm hoping that they pick Winslow.
chinawildman
Footballguy
With the niners having so many big name UFAs, the franchise tag, as well as barlow being an RFA, it's very likely they will get some kind of draft pick comp. for somebody next season. And I don't think they'd be comfortable waiting at #16 for either Roy or Larry... The niners almost always make some kind of move on draft day (last season was the first time in a long time that they haven't), so I anticipate them moving into the top 10 to grab one of those 2.
offdee
Footballguy
first off, great thread and discussion Herd!In regards to Larry Fitzgerald...he's the complete WR package, but have been hearing that if he has a downfall it's his speed.Does anybody have any info in regards to how Fitz's speed stacks up against the likes of Roy Williams or some of the other top WR's in this upcoming draft or even some of the top WR's from last year's draft (ex. Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson, etc..)?Also, just for discussions sake...what would be the pecking order of WR's if all of these guys were in the draft together this year.- Charles Rogers- Andre Johnson- Roy Williams- Larry FitzgeraldI know last year before the draft, most scouts were saying that if Roy Williams would've come out last year that he would've been the first WR taken ahead of Rogers and Johnson, and now they are saying that even Larry Fitzgerald would be ahead of Roy Williams this year.
chinawildman
Footballguy
You've called him a head case, says he drops too many balls, and also takes plays off.... ironically those are all the traits of some of the best WRs in the NFL... :rotflmao:
chinawildman
Footballguy
It's a joke partner. I do disagree with your analysis of Roy Williams however, he has all the physical ability (and handicaps) to be the next terrell owens.Please, lets not compare Roy to TO or RMoss now, that's an insult.So two top WR are headcases, that makes it a majority?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Without knocking Rothlisberger (I've only seen highlights - he looks like the real deal), I'm just a fan of heady QBs. I think Eli has great talent, but I'm sold on him b/c I know he's been watching game film since before he could walk. Whereas some NFL QB's need time to adjust to learning the complexity of the pro game, I think Manning will catch on quickly. He'll have to make the game speed adjustments, but I'm sure he knows every type of route a WR could possibly run.I'm a believer that decision making is the most underrated skill in NFL QB's today. That's why I've been so up in arms about the Brees benching - I think he's a legit NFL QB. I'd love to see the Chargers stick with him and go another route.But if they've given up on Brees, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE take Eli. The next two weeks will be very telling.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Just how high is Gallery's ceiling? Is he in the Ogden, McKinney range as an OL prospect?As a Charger fan, if Brees plays well the next two weeks, I'm wondering if the Chargers decide to go OL. What little I've read about Gallery indicates he's a pass blocking beast, but at 6'7, 340+, he's got to be a big time run blocker also.Just thinking about LT2 having a mammoth tackle in front of him gives me shivers.....
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matrix9280
Footballguy
:rotflmao: all this hype over players who've done absolutely nothing in the league. you just have to laugh. it is that funny. feel sorry for the team that gets the number 1 pick.
matrix9280
Footballguy
how big was the signing bonus that carson palmer got last year?
jurb26
Footballguy
Yeah you guys are right. But How easy will it be to sign a quality CB in the Offseason? Not very thats for sure. Plus good corners are guys that no one wants to loose due to the fact that the are in such demand. You never know how many will get franchised. I just think that depth abounds at RB and QB this year and its time to get a better than average secondary so that the Steelers can do all those cool blitzing packages again. There is no better way to do that than to sure it up in the draft right now. I can understand the arguement though cuz we need so many players right now its sick.
:(
HULLOBUDMAN
Footballguy
Curious about Jax picking safety. How many safeties have ever been chosen in the draft that early? It does not seem reasonable that he would go that soon even if his skills deserve that much early attention.
jurb26
Footballguy
I don't know how many have been drafted that high, but IMO he is well worth it. Maybe one of the top 5-10 players out there. A lot like Ed Reed of Balt. (who also was out of Mia) only he has better size! Its actually kinda scary to even think about having to go across the middle with him there. He is a real game breaker. Simlply look at the FSU game.
EastBayFunk
Footballguy
Here's my latest take:1. San Diego Chargers - Eli Manning - QB, Mississippi - If I were San Diego I might go after a veteran like Jeff Garcia or Mark Brunell and then add another difference maker with this pick. However, if the Chargers don't get a veteran QB then I think Manning is still the pick here.2. Arizona Cardinals - Ben Roethlisberger - QB, Miami (OH) - Josh McCown has some promise, but I don't think the Cardinals will be able to pass on Roethlisberger here. This is like the situation the Lions had before they drafted Joey Harrington.3. Atlanta Falcons - Larry Fitzgerald - WR, Pittsburgh - Robert Gallery makes a lot of sense for the Falcons, but Arthur Blank is a businessman and tackles don't sell tickets. Peerless Price and Brian Finneran are both decent players, but Fitzgerald is considered a great playmaker by just about everyone.4. Jacksonville Jaguars - Roy Williams - WR, Texas - Many people consider Williams the top overall prospect in the draft and his deep speed paired with Leftwich's cannon could give the Jags something of a Moss/Culpepper connection.5. Detroit Lions - Sean Taylor - S, Miami (FL) - The Lions desperately need playmakers on defense and Taylor will help to address that need. They can get a RB later in the draft.6. Oakland Raiders - Shawn Andrews - OL, Arkansas - I really don't know if Al Davis is going to want to draft a likely interior lineman this high, especially with Gallery and Winslow on the board, but the Raiders need a lot of help on the line.7. Cleveland Browns - Kellen Winslow - TE, Miami (FL) - Butch Davis has made some mistakes in the past by passing on Miami players. I think he'll get it right this time. Once again Robert Gallery would make sense here, but the Browns have below average TE's and Winslow is a difference maker.8. NY Giants - Robert Gallery - OT, Iowa - The Giants have one of the worst lines in the NFL. Picking Gallery would be a step in the right direction.9. Pittsburgh Steelers - Steven Jackson - RB, Oregon State - With Bettis fading and Zereoue failing to show up, the Steelers have to take a RB in this draft. Jackson is the kind of back you can build an offense around and he'd fit in very well in Pittsbugh. 10. Washington Redskins - Will Smith - DE, Ohio State - I think that the 'Skins could go a lot of different directions here, but Smith is considered a top 5 talent by some and would be a fairly smart choice for the 'Skins.11. San Francisco 49ers (from Houston) - Reggie Williams - WR, Washington - The 49ers have needs on the defensive side of the ball, but if you think they're going to go into next season with Brandon Lloyd and Cedrick Wilson as their top two WR's then you're off your rocker. The 49ers will trade up to get their guy before the Jets can snatch him up.12. NY Jets - DJ Williams - OLB, Miami (FL) - Williams is probably overrated if he goes this high, but he'll post the kind of combine numbers that will make scouts drool. He's a top level athlete and will add some youth to an aging group.13. Buffalo Bills - Tommie Harris - DT, Oklahoma - Admittedly, it's unlikely that Harris will fall this far. However, I think he has bust written all over him. Either way, the Bills might take a chance on him if he lasts this long. 14. Chicago Bears - Vince Wilfork - DT, Miami (FL) - Wilfork seems to be slipping for several reasons, but the Bears will have to take a chance on him here.15. Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Carnell Williams - RB, Auburn - This is a bit of a ballsy call as most people think Kevin Jones will be one of the first two RB's taken if not the first. Nevertheless, I think Williams will remind Gruden a lot of Charlie Garner and Michael Pittman. His pass-catching skills need work, but he'll fit in nicely in Tampa.16. Houston Texans (from San Francisco) - Randy Starks - DT, Maryland - I honestly don't know much about the Texans, but I'm pretty confident that they'll go defense here after having spent a lot of early picks on the offensive side. Starks is highly thought of and would give the Texans a good prospect on the DL.17. Green Bay Packers - JP Losman - QB, Tulane - This is quite a reach, but it's common for QB's to go too soon. The Packers need to find Favre's successor and Losman could be that guy. He actually reminds me a lot of Favre in nearly every aspect of the game, including his willingness to force balls into coverage. 18. New Orleans Saints - Derrick Strait - CB, Oklahoma - The Saints made a big mistake by passing on Marcus Trufant. I look for them to right that wrong by taking a solid CB prospect this year. Gamble may be the more highly-regarded prospect, but Strait seems like a safer bet.19. Denver Broncos - Chris Gamble - CB, Ohio State - the Broncos have a ton of needs on defense and while DL and LB would make sense here, Gamble might give them the shutdown corner that they failed to land in Deltha O'Neal and Willie Middlebrooks. 20. Cincinatti Bengals - Karlos Dansby - OLB, Texas - The Bengals have the foundation for a great offense so they almost have to draft for defense here. While Marlin Jackson might be a solid pick, I think Dansby is also a logical choice. He was one of the most highly thought of players coming into this season.21. New England (from Baltimore) - Kevin Jones - RB, VTech - I'm not convinced that Jones will last this long or that he really fits in with the Patriots, but I'll go ahead and leave him here for now. I could really see Belichick waiting until round two to address the RB need as a number of workhorse types will still be on the board then.22. Minnesota Vikings - Derrick Johnson - LB, Texas - Johnson is a bit of a boom or bust player, but he has a lot of speed and athleticism. The Vikings need both of those things on defense. 23. Dallas Cowboys - Dwan Edwards - DL, Oregon State - Call it a hunch, but I think that Edwards is going to rise considerably in the rankings as the draft approaches. I know some might be wondering why the Cowboys won't go with a RB here. The answer is simple: Bill Parcells has been able to find RB's later in the draft and I think that there's a good chance that he'll continue the trend this year.24. Seattle Seahawks - David Pollack - DE, Georgia - I feel like LB and DL are the likely options for the 'Hawks. I'm going to go ahead and pick the productive David Pollack as their choice here.25. Miami Dolphins - Michael Clayton - WR, LSU - The Dolphins would like to get a QB, but with Losman taken I don't believe they'll reach for someone here. OL and DT seem like possibilities as well, but adding Clayton would help open things up for Chambers. Derrius Thompson has done nothing this year and the Dolphins would welcome another WR named M. Clayton.26. Carolina Panthers - Jonathan Vilma - LB, Miami (FL) - Dan Morgan can't stay healthy and the undersized Vilma would help to strengthen the Panther D. WR is also a strong possibility here. 27. Indianapolis Colts - DeAngelo Hall - CB, Va. Tech - Hall is a playmaker who is also a dangerous return man. I'm not sure he'll last this long, but if he does then I expect the Colts to take him.28. Kansas City Chiefs - Marlin Jackson - DB, Michigan - Jackson is a 'tweener, but probably still won't last this long. If he does then he'll be a good pick for the Chiefs because they could really use a versatile DB.29. Philadelphia Eagles - Lee Evans - WR, Wisconsin - Freddie Mitchell has shown signs of life, but the Eagles still have one of the least impressive WR groups in the NFL. 30. New England Patriots - Jacob Rogers - OT, USC - Rogers may not be flashy, but he should be a nice pick up for New England.31. St. Louis Rams - Marcus Tubbs - DT, UTexas - The Rams can't seem to find that quality DT, but I think that they can afford to try again.32. Tennessee Titans - Kenechi Udeze - DE, USC - I have to say that it's extremely unlikely that Udeze will last this long. He seems to be rising up the board and may even verge on being a top 10 pick. With that said, I couldn't find a spot for him earlier than this. The Titans might lose Kevin Carter in the offseason and Udeze would help to replace him.And for fantasy purposes...Likely Second Round Picks/Fringe First Rounders:TE - Ben TroupeWR - Rashaun WoodsWR - Michael JenkinsWR - Mark Clayton (Jr.) *RB - Cedric Benson (Jr.) *RB - Chris PerryRB - Michael TurnerRB - Greg JonesLikely Third Round Picks:WR - James NewsonWR - Ernest WilfordWR - Johnnie MorantWR - BJ JohnsonRB - Julius JonesRB - Mewelde MooreRB - Quincy WilsonRB - Cedric Cobbs* denotes underclassman who hasn't declared - I only included these two because I think that they will declare. There a handful of other underclassmen who would be chosen in rounds 1-3 if they were to declare, but I won't include them until they do so.
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I can't argue with too much here, but here are a few comments I had when reading it:I don't think the Raiders will go offensive line in the 1st round. I'd expect them to possibly try and trade up, or else maybe grab Tommie Harris or a DE.
I think the Browns would grab Gallery if he is still available at their pick.
I imagine Tommie Harris wouldn't get past the Redskins, and then Will Smith could slide to the Bills pick, who have a bigger need at DE than DT.
Air Coryell
Footballguy
I think if Brees plays like he did this past week he will be the starter next season. Right now you have one of the best RBs in the league. I don't know that I would want to wait 3 years before a QB is ready to become an impact player. The O-line is a mess, D-line not any better. We need a real #2 WR, and thats assuimg Boston will pan out. I see a trade down, and wouldnt be surprised to see them go OT,OG with the first two picks.
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The one thing that jumped out at me regarding the mock immediately above, was that you do not have a DT coming off until #13 and you do not have a CB coming off until #18. I looked back 3 years and (as I thought) at least one DT AND CB were taken in the TOP 10. As a general rule of thumb, I expect to see the best QB, OT, DT and CB come off in the first 10 picks. These are the core positions.
EastBayFunk
Footballguy
Yea, you're right. It's probably just a case of my own personal opinions interfering. I really don't think that highly of either Chris Gamble or Tommie Harris and they are probably the top-rated CB and DT respectively.
matrix9280
Footballguy
the raiders offensive line is fine. they need help on the defensive line.they have only 21 sacks this season.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
You have been fighting this for months now, and I guess everyone is tired of arguing about it. There has been plenty of reports that the NFL wouldn't challenge Fitz if he wanted to throw his name into the pool, but you discard all of them. What is your infatuation with Fitz staying in school? Now he may decide to stay in school, but that isn't the argument here is it?
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Sorry I missed your response back on the 7th. Anyway, I certainly never implied that the Bills were saints (there's a good joke there somewhere). I just think that I was happy and proud to cheer for them regardless and that they did not often lose games with their on-field antics. If those are rose-colored glasses, then I have to ask if you were the same person questioning whether _I_ was a true Bills fan?Regardless, I stand by my statements about Winslow. We'll just have to see. I would much rather see the Bills grab Troupe in the 2nd (would probably have to trade up 5-6 slots) and grab a better player and young man in the 1st than Winslow. In the last two draft classes, I think Shockey (similar to Winslow and I know a Giants fan who is embarrassed by him), Teyo Johnson, Troupe and maybe even Wrightster from JAX have a _chance_ to be better pros than Winslow. Why take a chance on a player with an attitude in the 1st?
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Shooter McGavin
Down the middle
Doubtful, even if he somehow managed to get into the draft. With missing a year of playing, and NFL teams focusing so much on "character" when drafting, I wouldn't be surprised if Clarett fell, much like SOD, but probably not as far. 3rd round isn't out of the question.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
The following RBs will all go before Clarrett...JacksonJonesJonesBensonTurnerCobbsHoustonPerryI suspect Clarrett would go about the same time as Melwe Moore and Anthony Davis, depending on the preference of the team that is drafting. As such, he's probably a 3rd rounder at best. HERD
Mad Cow
Welshers and Dawdlers Beware!
I highly doubt anyone would take Cobbs or Houston before Clarett. Cobbs has shown to have very poor character in his time as well, and his injuries make Chris Chandler look like Superman. Houston has shown nothing overly impressive in his 1 season to shine. Teams will take a chance on Clarett who showed brilliant talent in his one year, and while he has shown questionable character to date (which we can only hope he improves and gets his head on straight), he has sooooo much more upside, that he will be much higher than those, IMHO.
Goat Herders
Footballguy
Well, I wouldn't be surprised either way, but keep in mind that the University of Tennessee has shown it knows a thing or two about suiting up top-notch RBs. The team ran the ball extremely well at the beginning of the year and Houston has the body-type for a RB that makes scouts drool. He dealt with an amazing amount of tragedy last summer (Grandmother, Father, and Mother all dying in a 6 week period, IIRC) and still was able to bare down and play well. HERD
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I agree with you about Cobbs, but I think Houston is about even with Clarrett. I think those two and Moore are probably right around mid 3rd. You're correct that teams love upside and will overlook character to get it, but:1) Clarrett had a great year last year, but don't forget that he did get dinged up a number of times. Teams may downgrade him a little for that. 2) He is not very mature as a 19 year old. Talent is great, but NFL teams really can't afford to babysit players until they are ready to make the NFL a job. NBA teams try this, but I don't think it always works out and there are a number of high school or Freshmen busts in the NBA.3) Only playing one season gives teams a lot less of a "resume" than most players have. Yes, he looked great, but was that just a fluke? Yes, he had some nagging injuries, but was that just a fluke?4) I think that given how blown up in the media and P.C -concious the NFL is becoming (see T.O, Horn, Sapp, Millen, Shockey, Raider steroid players, etc), I think that teams will become more concerned with "character" than in previous drafts. As RKade and Aaron have pointed out, character is usually defined by the media and may not always be correct or absolute (see Aaron's posts re: Winslow and the Bills). It will be interesting to see if this happens, but I think Clarrett will be hurt by his perceived lack of maturity/class with the lawsuit threats and circus that has occured at OSU. I'm very interested in how the whole Clarrett situation pans out.
almost guaranteed that Chicago goes for an OT, whether it be to trade up to get gallery or take the next best available one at the time. There really aren't any other really pressing needs on the team right now. Maybe a DT in the 2nd or 3rd round to add depth but there are 3 young DT's on the team already in Boone, Scott and Lafavor with probably one more year out of Traylor. a QB will go 2nd or 3rd round also.
EastBayFunk
Footballguy
I was reading a Texas message board last night and I think a lot of people expect Benson to leave. Sure, he may not even be a first round pick, but he won't last past the early second and is it really worth risking serious injury to move up 15 spots? I think that once the season ends he's going to realize that now is as good a time as any to leave. I'd put Cadillac Williams in the same boat as well.
Country Boy
Footballguy
Everything I'm hearing is that Benson stays at UT 1 more year, thinking about the Sr season Ricky Williams had. With the development of Vincent Young, Benson probably stays.
more draft news:
junior OT Shawn Andrews, a potential top 5 prospect at the 2004 draft, has announced that he will be entering the 2004 draft.
Tennessee junior OT Michael Munoz and classmate LB Kevin Burnett are leaning toward entering the 2004 draft.
Texas junior LB Derrick Johnson reports that its still "50-50" whether he stays in school or enters the draft, although his "gut-instinct" is to return for his senior season
Another Texas junior, RB Cedric Benson, also says that its also still "50-50" whether he jumps to the pros this off-season; Benson, however, appears to be thinking that he could make himself "millions" if he returned to school next fall and had another good season, instead of being selected, at best, late in this year's first round.
Alabama junior OG Justin Smiley has announced that he will be foregoing his final year of college eligibility and entering next April's draft. The 6-4, 305 Smiley, who is one of the quickest OGs in college football, will be looking to grade out as the #1 OG prospect in the 2004 draft field come next April.As for Clarett, I think if the Texans were willing to part with a 2nd round pick (which ended up being a very high 2nd round pick) for Tony Hollings with a torn ACL after he played only 4 college games at RB, AND the Bills were willing to part with the 23rd pick overall for McGahee with 3 torn ligaments in his knee, then I doubt Clarett lasts past the 2nd round because of a couple nagging injuries he suffered. He was a huge reason for Ohio St winning a national championship as a true freshman and his character concerns don't seem to be as great as they have been for some other players that have been drafted highly recently.
junior OT Shawn Andrews, a potential top 5 prospect at the 2004 draft, has announced that he will be entering the 2004 draft.
Tennessee junior OT Michael Munoz and classmate LB Kevin Burnett are leaning toward entering the 2004 draft.
Texas junior LB Derrick Johnson reports that its still "50-50" whether he stays in school or enters the draft, although his "gut-instinct" is to return for his senior season
Another Texas junior, RB Cedric Benson, also says that its also still "50-50" whether he jumps to the pros this off-season; Benson, however, appears to be thinking that he could make himself "millions" if he returned to school next fall and had another good season, instead of being selected, at best, late in this year's first round.
Alabama junior OG Justin Smiley has announced that he will be foregoing his final year of college eligibility and entering next April's draft. The 6-4, 305 Smiley, who is one of the quickest OGs in college football, will be looking to grade out as the #1 OG prospect in the 2004 draft field come next April.As for Clarett, I think if the Texans were willing to part with a 2nd round pick (which ended up being a very high 2nd round pick) for Tony Hollings with a torn ACL after he played only 4 college games at RB, AND the Bills were willing to part with the 23rd pick overall for McGahee with 3 torn ligaments in his knee, then I doubt Clarett lasts past the 2nd round because of a couple nagging injuries he suffered. He was a huge reason for Ohio St winning a national championship as a true freshman and his character concerns don't seem to be as great as they have been for some other players that have been drafted highly recently.
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Yep, he'll be the first QB off the board. He is this year's Palmer and Manning is this year's Leftwich. Even though Lefty did it for more years and possessed all the intangibles, the best NFL prospect (e.g. the size, the tools, etc.) will come off the board first again, and that's Roethlisberger.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
My issues:1. If Larry Fitzgerald is in the draft he does not make it out of the top 5. I would be shocked if he makes it out of the top 3. 2. The Falcons will almost definetly go D3. Ben Troupe doesn't make it out of the 1st round. He should be a top 20 pick.Fun to start to talk about it.
beef
Footballguy
To Herd and EastBayFunk, great job making a mock. 
It's a lot easier to rip one apart than it is to make one. I give you both a lot of credit for your work and explainations.I really do like getting into draft talks and talking about mocks and all the yes and nos, but some people just take these mocks too serious to enjoy.We can all try as hard as we may to make the most perfect mock, but when the draft is done we may be lucky to have half of them right. Guys like us and scouts don't think the same way some teams do. There will always be surprizes and there will always be guys that fall. There never has been and never will be a draft that can be easily figured out or mock that is real close to it.Keep up the good talk everyone and for those who want to bash the wonderful efforts of Herd and EastBayFunk, I'd like to see you make a mock that pleases everyone. Ain't gonna happen.
It's a lot easier to rip one apart than it is to make one. I give you both a lot of credit for your work and explainations.I really do like getting into draft talks and talking about mocks and all the yes and nos, but some people just take these mocks too serious to enjoy.We can all try as hard as we may to make the most perfect mock, but when the draft is done we may be lucky to have half of them right. Guys like us and scouts don't think the same way some teams do. There will always be surprizes and there will always be guys that fall. There never has been and never will be a draft that can be easily figured out or mock that is real close to it.Keep up the good talk everyone and for those who want to bash the wonderful efforts of Herd and EastBayFunk, I'd like to see you make a mock that pleases everyone. Ain't gonna happen.
