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The Unique Case of the NE Patriots (1 Viewer)

amicsta

Footballguy
2011 was a year that boasted numerous breakout offensive performances. Clearly there is much debate among the fantasy community as to the legitimacy of these performences. Are they repeatable? Will these numbers regress to the old mean or is there some "new mean" being established here? The New England Patriots however, are to me, a unique case. This post is to break down what makes them different, why it is beneficial to them, and some possible outcomes as to how they run their offense and create fantasy stardom (or bustdom).

2011 Passing Statistics: An outlier or the continuation of an ongoing trend?

One of the more debateable topics this season is that of the multiple 5000 yard passers. This is clearly new ground that we have stepped upon in the football world, as only 2 QBs had EVER thrown for 5000 yards in a season before 3 accomplishing this feat last year (and Eli Manning threw for 4,933 yards). While many would see this as an outlier year, one that is sure to "regress" in some way, I would urge you to look at this post by Butcher Boy:

2011: 117,601 passing yards

2010: 113,450

2009: 111,851

2008: 108,177

2007: 109,722

There is a definite upward trend of about 3-4% per year since 2008. I see no reason why the numbers will not continue this trend or at least stabilize at the current high number due to the current state of QB favorable rules on the field. Therefore, you can resonably conclude that there will be multiple QBs who exceed or at least come very close to 5,000 yards.
It would seem, when looking at this data, that last years passing numbers were more the continuation of an ongoing trend than the start of something new. Certainly, last season saw prolific passing statistics that we had never seen before, but keep in mind that when we talk about 5000 yard passers we are talking about just one benchmark, an arbitrary threshold if you will. It is more beneficial to look at these numbers as a whole than to focus on individual performances with such thresholds if we want to discuss a league-wide trend. I would say that if you look at the data and the way the league is trending, it is not only possible, but LIKELY that there will be multiple QBs exceeding or coming close to 5000 yards passing as the original poster stated. Keep in mind that we have spoken now only as the league as a whole, and not the specific case of the Patriots.The Patriots and the Rise of 12 Personel

So now when we look at the teams who had prolific passing offenses last season, there are 4 that jumped off the page: New Orleans, Green Bay, Detroit, and of course New England. These offenses all threw for over 5000 yards and at least 39 TDs, a clear separation from the pack. The first three, in some way shape or form, create a bulk of their offense with aggressive playcalling down the field and spread sets. What makes New England different, is that they do much of their damage in 12 personel.

For those who don't already know, 12 personel simply means that there is 1 RB and 2 TEs on the field (WRs are not mentioned, but they fill in the other 2 spots). While most of the league would seem to be shifting to more sets out of 10 personel (1 RB, 0 TEs, 4 WRs) or 11 (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WRs), New England has managed to produce historic levels of offense out of a very basic set that we would have seen more of 10 years ago. They are the only team that can do this in the entire league because they are the only team with players like Gronkowski and Hernandez. This probably isn't news to any of you. What should matter, is the fact that this gives them less of a chance to "regress" in my opinion in terms of their offensive prowess. In fact, with the addition of Brandon Lloyd, their offense should be better although it remains to be seen if this will reflect directly in their passing yards. Here is the big reason that this set gives them an advantage over the rest of the league without even considering the WRs on the outside:

Opposing defenses facing 12 personel MUST account for the run. With 2 TEs on the field already, it would not take much effort for a QB with the prestige of Tom Brady to audible to a run play, and gash a team all up and down the field on the ground. This is much different from the spread-heavy offenses who show pass on many plays, and would not have the offensive personel on the field to audible to the run with consistent success. What makes NE so effective in this set is that they have the ONLY TE tandem in the league capable of pulling this off while still being an elite passing offense. Gronkowski and Hernandez are matchup nightmares for opposing defenses. So while most teams lining up in 12 do not pose a significant passing mismatch, the Patriots last year had THREE elite passing options while still being in a traditionally run-first formation. See that this creates a unique difference when scheming to play the Patriots as opposed to these other teams. "New" defensive schematics that may trend around the league to slow down these spread attacks would not be nearly as effective against a team like New England. This is why we are seeing teams like Indianapolis try to replicate this in the 2012 draft with Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen. It is simply a tougher offense to stop IF you have the right players to do it.

Looking Forward: NE in 2012

When we look at the passing trends of the league, as well as the unique personel the Patriots use, I think that we can all agree that New England will repeat as an elite offense. But so what? Most of you probably already figured that. What we care about though is will they throw for 5000 yards? Will Brady throw EVEN MORE TDs? My projection would be yes and yes. Here's why:

The addition of Brandon Lloyd makes the Patriots offense one of the best (if not THE best) the league has ever seen:

That statement is, by itself, quite clearly an opinion. If we break it down though, I see no feasible way the Patriots can be stopped this year if everyone is healthy. Consider that the Patriots now have FOUR elite options in the passing game. When I say elite, I mean that they can beat single covereage with an expected level of consistency higher than other players in the league. Lloyd is one of the leagues best jump ball catchers and vertical threats (Matt Waldman has written extensively on this so see his work if you want a more in depth look). Welker has shown over the years with his route runnning that he cannot be contained in the slot. Gronkowski may be the toughest mismatch in the entire league when you consider his size, speed, and hands from the TE position. Corner are too small, safetys and linebackers are too slow. Hernandez also presents a size/speed mismatch. While he is smaller than Gronkowski, his speed is first class from the TE position. All 4 of these players if left in single coverage for most of the game against an average defender would tear an opposing defense to shreds. Having them all on one team makes them together unstoppable.

Let's do some simple math here. There are only 11 defenders on the field. To double any of these 4 players on a given play would leave only 9 defenders. That would leave the other 3 in single coverage and a 6 man front to rush, cover the backs, etc. That's fairly common situation in the NFL. But we've already stated that to leave one of these guys, let alone 3, in single coverage for an extensive period of time would be football suicide. So say you double 2 of them. That leaves now 7 defenders. Now you cover the other 2 players in single coverage and have 5 players left to rush, cover the backs, etc. That leaves yourself pretty thin up front. On a very basic level, it doesn't make much sense to play man coverage against the Patriots, and at a deeper level, playing a zone would eventually expose yourself to similar matchup problems during the play. This makes NE very difficult to stop, and this is if they are telling you on a given play that they will pass.

Consider now the other side of the coin. Getting back to that 12 personel, the Patriots would still have to be taken as a legitimate run threat. To put personel on the field to defend the pass would expose the defense to getting gashed by the run. To put personel on the field to defend against he run would leave them susceptable to the pass. Any combination thereof would leave them exposed somewhere in some fashion. It is easy to see that it would take a very special combination of scheme and player talent to stop the Patriots offense.

We have just outlined just how unstoppable the Patriots offense can be at a fundamental level. Now I have seen many posts suggesting that NE will throw LESS this year based on McDaniels' history with the Patriots. Keep in mind though, that even in the record breaking 50 TD season for Brady, they did not have this kind of unique talent on the team. This compilation of weapons has NEVER happened in the NFL before. I think that you could make a very reasonable arguement for the Patriots to throw MORE this year. After all, it would make more sense for them to play to their strength. The only reason I could see the Patriots throwing less this year would be if teams 100% sold out against the pass and NE had no choice but to ram it down their throats via the run game.

So in conclusion, I do not feel that the Patriots will be due for a regression in their offensive numbers from last year. They are simply too unique of an offense to slow down. To me, they could approach 640 passing attempts this season. This would provide plenty of targets for those big 4 in the receiving game, eliminating the "too many mouths to feed" theory. I would expect Brady to not only throw for 5000 yards again, but at least 40 TDs as well (especially since Lloyd is just one more elite redzone threat). This would lend to Gronk not dropping off nearly as severely as people would think, Welker still compiling plenty of yardage, Lloyd contending for WR1 status, and Hernandez still finishing in the top 5 for TEs. In fact, here are my current projections for the NE passing game:

Brady: 640 attempts, 8.28 YPA, 5299/46/12 (TDs are admittedly probably a shade high, but I'm all in on NE)

Welker: 152 Targets, 112 REC, 11.1 YPC 1243 yds 6 TDs

Lloyd: 132/73/17/1241/10

Gronk: 130/94/14.2/1335/14

Hern: 119/77/11.9/916/9

Like I said, the TDs are probably high, but if the Patriots can produce that many attempts this season, I think these numbers are not too far off from possible.

I really appreciate those of you who took the time to read this post. Interested to see what the community has to say.

 
I agree that Brady is primed to make a run at a 5000/50 season this year. However, IMO, I think your receiving projections are a quite a bit on the high side.

Welker: 152 Targets, 112 REC, 11.1 YPC 1243 yds 6 TDs

Lloyd: 132/73/17/1241/10

Gronk: 130/94/14.2/1335/14

Hern: 119/77/11.9/916/9

That adds up to 356-4735-39 from those 4 guys alone on 533 targets. That does not account for Gaffney, Branch/Stallworth (only one will likely make the team), any leftover WRs (Edelman, Slater), and the RBs.

In 11 seasons since 2001, NE RBs combined have averaged 76-659-2 per year receiving. Eliminating the top 4 WR and/or TE each season over those 11 years, the non Top 4 receiving options still accounted for 47-582-5. Between those two data sets, that adds up to 123-1241-7.

Now, the 2012 Patriots may not pass as much to their RBs and maybe they won't use their other receivers as frequently. I might agree with the first part (not passing as much to their RBs), but I do not agree with the second part (I see them using their WR3-4 more than in the past).

Bottom line, projecting the Patriots this year will be an incredibly difficult task, as everyone wants to load up their primary players with more and more production when in reality there are A TON of mouths to feed.

 
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Rob Ryan had success the past two years doubling each of Welker and Gronk, with one of the defenders on each working to jam them off the line. I agree that adding Lloyd will make even that strategy well-nigh impossible.

I think that Edelman, Branch/Gaffney and the other receivers may not see as much production as in the past, since I don't think they'll be on the field as much. I think base personnel includes Welker, Lloyd, Gronk and Hernandez, and varies primarily between 12 personnel and three-TE sets.

Ridley's on the field in 12 personnel? Could be pass or run. Ridley comes out for Fells? Could still be pass or run. They could show a three-TE empty set with four excellent receiving threats and and a decent receiving keybreaker in Fells, and still have the threat of Hernandez switching into the backfield and running the ball with strong blocking in front.

Opponents will just have to keep up offensively.

 
Here's what I have projected for the Pats receiving distribution . . .

Code:
Targets	Rec	Yds	TDWelker	140	100	1190	6Gronk	110	75	1000	12Lloyd	100	60	975	6Hern	90	68	815	7Gaffney	50	35	450	3Branch	40	30	375	4Edelman	8	5	50	0Slater	3	1	20	0RBs	85	50	450	4Fells	4	2	25	0	630	426	5350	42
 
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If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?while we're talking about hernandez, I just wanted to make a point on the op --- a lot of this kind of talk about scheme and personnel can be semantics.is suggs a linebacker or defensive end, etc?maybe in some packages he's a linebacker and some a clear end, but then what about a play where he shows 'backer and walks up to the line?what about a finley or hernandez who get split out wide --- tight end or receiver?obviously, these guys are slotted at positions by the team, but it's their actual usage that matters.so, while the pats might've been the league leader in so called 2 te sets, or 12 personnel, I think I read some stat that hernandez was only used as a blocking te on the line maybe a third of the time, so how many snaps did they actually use him as the 3rd wr in 3 wide sets?I think this is pretty relevant for next season, as mcdaniels always struck me as kind of a 3 wide te killer kind of guy.
 
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If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
 
If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
I would say that the RB would have to be an elite talent, a once in a generational talent. Were talking AP pre-injury, Tomlinson, Sanders etc. it would have to be someone who is just so talented, that a defense would have to choose which foot to shoot itself in. While i think rice is one of the better backs on the league, he is not enough of a freak for defenses to key on him OVER that pats passing game.
 
If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?while we're talking about hernandez, I just wanted to make a point on the op --- a lot of this kind of talk about scheme and personnel can be semantics.is suggs a linebacker or defensive end, etc?maybe in some packages he's a linebacker and some a clear end, but then what about a play where he shows 'backer and walks up to the line?what about a finley or hernandez who get split out wide --- tight end or receiver?obviously, these guys are slotted at positions by the team, but it's their actual usage that matters.so, while the pats might've been the league leader in so called 2 te sets, or 12 personnel, I think I read some stat that hernandez was only used as a blocking te on the line maybe a third of the time, so how many snaps did they actually use him as the 3rd wr in 3 wide sets?I think this is pretty relevant for next season, as mcdaniels always struck me as kind of a 3 wide te killer kind of guy.
I agree that some of it is semantics and that usage definately matters, but the fact that Hern is a 245 lb TE and not a 210 lb WR makes a huge difference when youre scheming against him on the field. There is always the threat that he could motion in line (or even the backfield as a poster mentioned) to hurt you by unexpectedly blocking (or rushing). Also, slips and fake blocks from an in line position are more desceptive than just running a pattern right away. This is something else afforded to Hern as a TE that a WR wouldnt have and it adds to the overall potency of 12 personel with these players vs 11 personel. Those are the big differences between Hern and your classic 3rd WR
 
If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
I would say that the RB would have to be an elite talent, a once in a generational talent. Were talking AP pre-injury, Tomlinson, Sanders etc. it would have to be someone who is just so talented, that a defense would have to choose which foot to shoot itself in. While i think rice is one of the better backs on the league, he is not enough of a freak for defenses to key on him OVER that pats passing game.
Would the Pats offense be better with Larry Fitzgerald instead of Aaron Hernandez?
 
haha...upping the ante makes that a tough question for me.

partly because I'm a pats superhomer, so while I won't bs anybody that ridley/vereen is jim brown / barry sanders, I'm usually pretty optimistic on our guys, and it becomes kind of a value added thing, more than absolute value.

so, if some guy i salready doing his job, how much value added do you get from a somewhat better job vs the hernandez case, where nobody would be doing that job.

but, partly just because it's a tough question, I think, although in this case I would yield to the all time great rb.

I'm one of those guys that believes rb is a replaceable component, but there are some talents that just do things on the field that individually beat defense.

the pats would be ok with fells as a second te, and lloyd/gaffney/et al as receiving options.

I would, however, qualify that I'd give up pure running ability to ensure he's a top shelf beast at blitz pick up, and a generally higher football IQ.

I don't want to derail into the greatest 5 rb, best 100 players in the nfl, blahblah, which I have no insight on, but just imagine what an adrian peterson or barry sanders might do on this team, with the defense they'd be looking at.

would rex be flooding the field with 8 db to stop brady, then?

edit: I'd actually take hernandez over fitz just because of teh scheme versatility -- I think our receiving options are good enough.

as good as fitz is, he isn't doing much to lock defenses into the wrong personnel for no huddle.

ps chase

I forgot to mention -- on pro-football-ref it says tj ward had 80 tackles his rookie year but other sources claim 95, so I don't know if that's an oversight or different source, or whatever.

 
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If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
Ummm, not sure what you are trying to get at here as it is a bit too hypothetical, but I would think that Sanders/Smith pur running wise would do really well with Gronk/Welker/Lloyd commanding attention and opening up running lanes. I also think Marshall Faulk as a runner/receiver would be ridiculous with the amount of openings he would have. Think Holt/Bruce and add a TE with the talent of Gronk in the middle and Faulk would run wild on a screen/dump off pass. I am sure there are quite a few more, but I think the point is that yes, I think they could improve with a "great" all time RB for Hernandez. Again, kind of way too hypothetical question as the Ravens would never, ever, trade Rice for Hernandez. The great RBs in the NFL today are far more valuable to their own teams than adding Hernandez.
 
If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
I would say that the RB would have to be an elite talent, a once in a generational talent. Were talking AP pre-injury, Tomlinson, Sanders etc. it would have to be someone who is just so talented, that a defense would have to choose which foot to shoot itself in. While i think rice is one of the better backs on the league, he is not enough of a freak for defenses to key on him OVER that pats passing game.
Would the Pats offense be better with Larry Fitzgerald instead of Aaron Hernandez?
My answer would have to be yes, of course. What you lose in blocking/versatility with Hern you easily replace with Fitzgerald being a better and more dynamic playmaker. Fitz would be someone youd have to account for OFF the formation, and would conceivably open up more holes with he and lloyd on the outside. Not to mention the fact that the differnce in passing attack is huge. There is no scheme I could come up with to cover fitz, lloyd, gronk, and welker. Im on my cellphone soni apoligize for my brevity, but i think you understan what im getting at.
 
If the Patriots traded Aaron Hernandez for Ray Rice tomorrow, would the Patriots offense be better or worse?
I'll say worse, just because, as good as rice is, I'm not going to sell ridley/vereen short --- I think those guys can be as good as we need them to be.hernandez provides them with a better blocker, receiver, and versatility in scheme.is anybody on defense confused about what ray rice is going to do on the field, even though the guy is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield?is ray rice going to block for another rb?
Okay. Is there a running back in the NFL the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?If no, is there a running back in the history of the NFL that the Patriots could trade Hernandez for that could make their offense better?
I would say that the RB would have to be an elite talent, a once in a generational talent. Were talking AP pre-injury, Tomlinson, Sanders etc. it would have to be someone who is just so talented, that a defense would have to choose which foot to shoot itself in. While i think rice is one of the better backs on the league, he is not enough of a freak for defenses to key on him OVER that pats passing game.
Would the Pats offense be better with Larry Fitzgerald instead of Aaron Hernandez?
The Patriots are breaking records with Larry Fitzgerald.
 
But the great thing for the Patriots is that they don't have to trade Hernandez for Ray Rice.

Every team misses more often than not in the draft. Every team operates within salary and roster constraints that limit what they can achieve. Every team cannot do everything it wants to do.

Belichick acquired Welker and Lloyd in trades. He drafted Brady Ridley, Gronk and Hernandez. But he's been looking for two tight ends like those guys for a long, long time. I remember watching both Belichick and Parcells hunt desperately for two tight ends like those guys. When Parcells added Bennett to pair with Witten, it looked like he might have gotten there first.

Would it seriously take just Hernandez in trade to acquire Rice? I doubt it. I don't think trades in the NFL are quite that easy, which is why we don't tend to see trades like that. I appreciate the hypothetical exercise, because that's the kind of potential trade NFL teams have to consider in their day-to-day business. But I think the point is that the Patriots have put together an offensive personnel and system that gives them an enormous advantage over competing defenses, and that still gives them the cap and roster room to improve on defense.

 
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The Pats will be good but Brady is what, 35 now? He will be lucky to make through the season without an injury. If he goes down you can throw out those 5000/50 predictions.

 
The Pats will be good but Brady is what, 35 now? He will be lucky to make through the season without an injury. If he goes down you can throw out those 5000/50 predictions.
How many 25 year old injured QBs can have a shot at a 5000/50 season? I am not sure Brady is more at risk of getting hurt than a non 35 year old.
 
I think a player like Lesean Mccoy for hernandez makes them better.

In any case, I thnk what you are going to see from defenses this year is more of the same. Blitzing to stop / slow the pats. The truth is only a team with a great front 4 beats them. See the new york giants and the wanny dolfin teams for the way to stop brady. Everyone else has to hope for turnovers.

 
I think a player like Lesean Mccoy for hernandez makes them better.In any case, I thnk what you are going to see from defenses this year is more of the same. Blitzing to stop / slow the pats. The truth is only a team with a great front 4 beats them. See the new york giants and the wanny dolfin teams for the way to stop brady. Everyone else has to hope for turnovers.
:goodposting: I think that's why more teams are going to the 4-3. A 4-3 is effective against spread and 2 TE offenses. It's much easier to build an all purpose 4 man defensive line, than it is to find LB's and safeties that have the speed to stay with a spread, fast TE's, Large TE's and the different types of RB.
 
I am not sure that they are that unique or special. First, I think they will regress because I think teams will figure better how to defend their 2TE formations. I am not convinced that they are that much better talent wise than the next 10 best fantasy TEs. I DO think Brady is a top 5 QB and Bellicheat is one of the best schemers, which helps make their production unique.

I know that my opinion is the minority opinion and their owners and NE fans will proceed to attack me. That's fine. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it until they prove otherwise. One year does not a HOFer make.

 
to get back to the op, I wanted to post some pats stats, since 2007 is always thrown out there for comparison as the pot of gold year.

from football outsiders (thx, FO)

and pro-football-reference

2007

pass/run - 586/451

yards - 6580 - 1st

plays - 1058 - 2nd by 2 plays

off td - 67

rush td - 17 - tied 5th

drives - 158 - actually tied with indy for lowest in league

yds/drive - 41.63 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at 37)

td/drive - .424 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at .323)

DSR - .812 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at .769)

DSR represents Drive Success Rate, as introduced in Pro Football Prospectus 2005, which measures the percentage of down series that result in a first down or touchdown.

2011

pass/run - 612/438

yards - 6848 - 2nd

plays - 1082 - 2nd

off td - 57

rush td - 18 - 3rd

drives - 173 - 4th lowest (pit lowest at 165)

yds/drive - 39.53 - 2nd (NO 1st at 42.44)

td/drive - .329 - 3rd (GB 1st at .375)

DSR - .775 - 2nd (NO 1st at .788)

rolling into 2011, I thought new england was going to be the dominant team everybody's talking about for 2012, and maybe I'm a spoiled pats fan, but I'd say 2011 turned out to be good, but not great.

comparing these 2 sets of stats, I think they're remarkably similar -- more similar than I expected, but the key difference, and this is what I DID expect, is basically drive efficiency.

there's about a .100 drop off from 2007 to 2011 in td/drive, resulting in about 10 fewer brady td's over 170+ drives.

I'll post up td/drive leaders from the past few years for comparison:

2011 - GB .375

2010 - NE .354

2009 - NO .312

2008 - NO .309

2007 - NE .424

2006 - IN .324

2005 - IN .314

2004 - IN .367

2003 - KC .306

2002 - KC .299

2001 - SL .324

2000 - SL .350

average of above subtracting 2007 - .330

so, you can see the 2007 pats did their damage just by being crazy efficient on their drives --- just about .100 above the typical leader or nearly 30%.

30% better than an annual leader is pretty efficient, and this obviously includes some of the very best offenses of the last decade - saints, indy, packers, rams.

the 2011 team weighed in at only .329 td/drive, which is just about exactly the .330 average of annual leaders shown above.

those of you looking to squeeze more fantasy points out of the pats this year can actually do so if mcd and lloyd manage to pimp that drive efficiency back up to the crazy good ted williams level.

2011: branch + ocho = 6 td

steal 3 from gronk + 1 from welker = 4 td

add 8 td from inc eff = 8 td

just to play devil's advocate, that's 18 td for the new 2012 receivers, or maybe rb, I guess.

or maybe just give gronk's 3 back to him or to hernandez, and call it +15 td.....

 
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I am not sure that they are that unique or special. First, I think they will regress because I think teams will figure better how to defend their 2TE formations. I am not convinced that they are that much better talent wise than the next 10 best fantasy TEs. I DO think Brady is a top 5 QB and Bellicheat is one of the best schemers, which helps make their production unique. I know that my opinion is the minority opinion and their owners and NE fans will proceed to attack me. That's fine. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it until they prove otherwise. One year does not a HOFer make.
If you read the OP you would know that there really isn't a good way to defend their 2 TE formations.
 
I am not sure that they are that unique or special. First, I think they will regress because I think teams will figure better how to defend their 2TE formations. I am not convinced that they are that much better talent wise than the next 10 best fantasy TEs. I DO think Brady is a top 5 QB and Bellicheat is one of the best schemers, which helps make their production unique. I know that my opinion is the minority opinion and their owners and NE fans will proceed to attack me. That's fine. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it until they prove otherwise. One year does not a HOFer make.
The Pats updgraded their receiving corps by a large margin in adding Lloyd and Gaffney. I can't prove it, but I suspect that the Pats are the only team to start a season with 6 guys that had at least 700 receiving yards the year before.Can't stop the 2 TE set? What will teams do if the Pats stick Hernandez in the backfield with 4 WR (Welker, Lloyd, Gaffney, Branch) and Gronk at the TE spot? Teams couldn't stop the 2TE set . . . but the Pats really only used Welker to the best of his abilities. Branch did ok, but clearly Ocho Cinco was a bust. Brady will have better options to go along with Gronk / Hernandez / Welker this year.
 
Their defense will be improved this year, by how much remains to be seen. Last year their defense allowed teams to march up and down the field on them. If they can force more punts this year, they will have a shorter field to operate. Maybe less yards for Brady but more TD passes I would imagine.

 
Their defense will be improved this year, by how much remains to be seen. Last year their defense allowed teams to march up and down the field on them. If they can force more punts this year, they will have a shorter field to operate. Maybe less yards for Brady but more TD passes I would imagine.
average starting drive in 2011 was about the 29, or 9th in the league.in 2007 it was the 32 or 7th in the league.last year, NO was actually 17th at about 28 yards, but finished 2nd in td/drive at .356.in 2011 NE def was 25th in punts/drive at .383.in 2007 they were 10th at .434.
 
I honestly think the patriots will be a different team next year. I bet they run the ball alot more and let a much inproved defense win them some games.

I know this isn't conventional wisdom, call it a hunch.

 
Belichick was a coach with the Detroit Lions when they had HOF TE Charlie Sanders. Sanders was so impressive that he left an everlasting imprint on young Belichick. He's always been in love with the old "Detroit offense". He once wanted to draft TE Kyle Brady, and was so upset when the Jets grabbed him that he traded down. He always likes to stock his roster with pass-catching TEs. That's just him. But he's also a brilliant coach and understood the value of the mismatches a stud TE can create.

 
Matt Light retired at LT, Logan Mankins LG tore his ACL in the AFC Championship in January...might want to look at the OLine here a bit before we pencil the offense in for 10,000 yards and 100 TDs.

 
Matt Light retired at LT, Logan Mankins LG tore his ACL in the AFC Championship in January...might want to look at the OLine here a bit before we pencil the offense in for 10,000 yards and 100 TDs.
Light has not been the same guy the past couple of years. Mankins had a partial tear of his ACL suffered in Week 15 . . . yet was able to play what 5 more games on it? He's slated to be ready for Week One. They should again be one of the best pass protecting units in the league.
 
Matt Light retired at LT, Logan Mankins LG tore his ACL in the AFC Championship in January...might want to look at the OLine here a bit before we pencil the offense in for 10,000 yards and 100 TDs.
funny you should mention that because I was talking all this over with a fellow pats fan a couple hours ago, and after proclaiming how awesome the pats might be in 2012, I listed light's retirement as a possible flaw -- if you need to find some.LT will be a 2nd year guy, which isn't automatically a bad thing, but vollmer had some back issue last year, and if one of those guys goes out it becomes more of a depth issue, where you might press a cannon or gallery into service at tackle.I'd be more comfortable with a legit 3rd tackle, but there are probably lots of teams that wish they had a problem like this to worry about, so I'm not complaining.on the plus side, gronk is kind of like a 3rd tackle on the field if any of those guys needs the help.and we still haven't sifted through the cutdown fodder yet -- there might be cap casualties that can still play.we didn't sign waters until sept and he turned out ok.
 
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I guess im the only pats fan in the universe that is universally unimpressed with Hernandez.

I would love to see Ray Rice with the pats.

 
I guess im the only pats fan in the universe that is universally unimpressed with Hernandez.I would love to see Ray Rice with the pats.
I think ridley was something like 5.4 ypc on 1st down and he looks good catching the ball.that's before we even mention vereen.ridley had a 20+ yard run every 17.4 carries.rice had a 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries.
 
I guess im the only pats fan in the universe that is universally unimpressed with Hernandez.I would love to see Ray Rice with the pats.
I think ridley was something like 5.4 ypc on 1st down and he looks good catching the ball.that's before we even mention vereen.ridley had a 20+ yard run every 17.4 carries.rice had a 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries.
Would be interesting to see if he could maintain that pace with 250 carries...
 
I guess im the only pats fan in the universe that is universally unimpressed with Hernandez.I would love to see Ray Rice with the pats.
I think ridley was something like 5.4 ypc on 1st down and he looks good catching the ball.that's before we even mention vereen.ridley had a 20+ yard run every 17.4 carries.rice had a 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries.
Would be interesting to see if he could maintain that pace with 250 carries...
Get into the 350-400 touch area and we can begin comparing Ridley and Rice, and yes lets not even get into Vareen, the unproven unproven back.
 
I guess im the only pats fan in the universe that is universally unimpressed with Hernandez.I would love to see Ray Rice with the pats.
I think ridley was something like 5.4 ypc on 1st down and he looks good catching the ball.that's before we even mention vereen.ridley had a 20+ yard run every 17.4 carries.rice had a 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries.
Would be interesting to see if he could maintain that pace with 250 carries...
Get into the 350-400 touch area and we can begin comparing Ridley and Rice, and yes lets not even get into Vareen, the unproven unproven back.
my point exactly, apples and oranges...
 
well, fortunately, we won't need to see 400 touches from ridley because this isn't a single back cam cameron offense.

if it was, ridley would probably look like tomlinson.

everybody always has such short memories, so I thought I'd look a few things up.

a few years ago, back when he was just rookie ray rice, before he became RAY RICE :eek: !!, it looks like he logged 107 carries, which compares pretty evenly to ridley's 90, with a 4.2 ypc compared with ridley's 5.0.

rookie ray had one 20+ yd run for every 35.6 carries, so he's improved a bit to his current 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries, but still not quite as good as ridley's 17 carry mark, which was on par with forte, fred jackson, and mcfadden last year.

maybe give him another few years and people will be naming ridley in their would you rathers.

ps

since I threw tomlinson's name out there, he had a 3.6 ypc his rookie year, with one 20+ run every 48 carries.

 
Wait, I can't get over the part that says the Pats have 4 elite weapons on offense. Seriously? The Pats maybe have 2 elite weapons on offense, Gronk and Welker. I'm not sure I would consider Welker truly elite either. Personally, I think Welker has largely benefited from the supporting caste in NE over the years more than anything. Not that he isn't a very good player. The threshold to elite is a totally different thing though.

How is the strength of Gronk and the NE 2 TE sets any different than say the strength of say, Calvin Johnson? No player in the NFL demands more doulbe coverage or attention than Calvin. Not only does Calvin demand double coverage, but he also stretches the field as a premier deep threat.

In games that mattered most, AFC Champ game and Super Bowl last year, both Balt and NYG did a very good job of shutting down these supposed "elite" weapons. Here are the stat lines;

Vs. Balt

Brady - 239 yds, 0 TDs, 2 Ints

Gronk - 5 rec, 87 yds

Welker - 6 rec, 53 yds

Hernandez - 7 rec, 66 yds

Vs. NYG

Brady - 276 yds, 2 TDs, 1 Int

Gronk - 2 rec, 26 yds

Welker - 7 rec, 60 yds

Hernandez - 8 rec, 67 yds, 1 TD

Yes, they can be stopped. It simply takes the proper scheme and execution on defense. Llyod is not an elite talent to drastically change anything IMO.

On top of this, as mentioned before, I can't see how the Oline isn't at least somewhat of a question this year. If you ask me, NE would be best served this year to lean more on their running game and hope that the slew of additions they made to their defense pay off.

I've mentioned in other threads before that I think NE is very wise and in a lot of senses ahead of the "curve." Their use of 2 TE sets is a great schematic way of simply taking advantge of some of the modern rule changes in the NFL. Many teams are seeing hue increases in passing stats becuase of these rules but NE appears to be unique in how they are choosing to go about manipulting them. I don't see it as any significant advantage vs. any other team though. As a matter of fact, I think NFL defenses are really going to start focusing on better schemes to slow this rapid rise of TE produciton down. Eventually, they catch up.

 
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Vs. BaltBrady - 239 yds, 0 TDs, 2 IntsGronk - 5 rec, 87 ydsWelker - 6 rec, 53 ydsHernandez - 7 rec, 66 ydsVs. NYGBrady - 276 yds, 2 TDs, 1 IntGronk - 2 rec, 26 ydsWelker - 7 rec, 60 ydsHernandez - 8 rec, 67 yds, 1 TDYes, they can be stopped. It simply takes the proper scheme and execution on defense.
I'm glad you brought this up, even though you're spreading some misinformation --- I wanted to post something similar.gronk wouldn't have even been playing in the superbowl if it was a regular season game -- he had to have ankle surgery for an injury suffered in the balt game, so it's a little misleading to assume the nyg shut him down.unless the nfl is going to adopt the lead pipe to the ankle defense.in the reg season game nyg gave upbrady - 342/2/2gronk - 8/101/1welker - 9/136/0hern - 4/35/1of course, in 2007 the pats ran it up in the reg season, and we saw how that turned out in the postseason.........but it's a good point , and people should slow down on this best offense in history stuff.last year, the pats played 4 games against 3 legit playoff teams, I think (no, I don't count den).they were 1/4,and easily could have been 0/4, scoring around 19 ppg.so, before they have a historically great offense, maybe they should start by creating an offense that can beat playoff teams in 2012.psI think tyvon branch was about the only thing to stop gronk last year.
 
I am not sure that they are that unique or special. First, I think they will regress because I think teams will figure better how to defend their 2TE formations. I am not convinced that they are that much better talent wise than the next 10 best fantasy TEs. I DO think Brady is a top 5 QB and Bellicheat is one of the best schemers, which helps make their production unique. I know that my opinion is the minority opinion and their owners and NE fans will proceed to attack me. That's fine. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it until they prove otherwise. One year does not a HOFer make.
Teams have had two years to "figure out" the two TEs and so far the only answer has been Bernard Pollard.
 
Wait, I can't get over the part that says the Pats have 4 elite weapons on offense. Seriously? The Pats maybe have 2 elite weapons on offense, Gronk and Welker. I'm not sure I would consider Welker truly elite either. Personally, I think Welker has largely benefited from the supporting caste in NE over the years more than anything. Not that he isn't a very good player. The threshold to elite is a totally different thing though. How is the strength of Gronk and the NE 2 TE sets any different than say the strength of say, Calvin Johnson? No player in the NFL demands more doulbe coverage or attention than Calvin. Not only does Calvin demand double coverage, but he also stretches the field as a premier deep threat. In games that mattered most, AFC Champ game and Super Bowl last year, both Balt and NYG did a very good job of shutting down these supposed "elite" weapons. Here are the stat lines;Vs. BaltBrady - 239 yds, 0 TDs, 2 IntsGronk - 5 rec, 87 ydsWelker - 6 rec, 53 ydsHernandez - 7 rec, 66 ydsVs. NYGBrady - 276 yds, 2 TDs, 1 IntGronk - 2 rec, 26 ydsWelker - 7 rec, 60 ydsHernandez - 8 rec, 67 yds, 1 TDYes, they can be stopped. It simply takes the proper scheme and execution on defense. Llyod is not an elite talent to drastically change anything IMO.On top of this, as mentioned before, I can't see how the Oline isn't at least somewhat of a question this year. If you ask me, NE would be best served this year to lean more on their running game and hope that the slew of additions they made to their defense pay off.I've mentioned in other threads before that I think NE is very wise and in a lot of senses ahead of the "curve." Their use of 2 TE sets is a great schematic way of simply taking advantge of some of the modern rule changes in the NFL. Many teams are seeing hue increases in passing stats becuase of these rules but NE appears to be unique in how they are choosing to go about manipulting them. I don't see it as any significant advantage vs. any other team though. As a matter of fact, I think NFL defenses are really going to start focusing on better schemes to slow this rapid rise of TE produciton down. Eventually, they catch up.
Good thing they don't have to face the Ravens and Giants every week. The Packers got shut down by the Giants, too, so I suppose we should write off their offense as easy to defend.I don't see how adding Lloyd and Gaffney can be viewed as HURTING the offense and their productivity. Having a deeper set of receivers will only HELP the offense by giving them more options. They now have capable players, while not elite, know what they are doing and can be counted on to be where they are supposed to be. Between Lloyd and Gaffney, they added two players that had almost 2,000 combined receiving yards last year. Of the top passing teams from last year, which other team got better in that area?
 
Here's what I have projected for the Pats receiving distribution . . .

Code:
Targets	Rec	Yds	TDWelker	140	100	1190	6Gronk	110	75	1000	12Lloyd	100	60	975	6Hern	90	68	815	7Gaffney	50	35	450	3Branch	40	30	375	4Edelman	8	5	50	0Slater	3	1	20	0RBs	85	50	450	4Fells	4	2	25	0	630	426	5350	42
Just curious, are you projecting any injuries? I don't think Gaffney or Branch see the field that much if the top 4 guys play 16 games.
 
Here's what I have projected for the Pats receiving distribution . . .

Code:
Targets	Rec	Yds	TDWelker	140	100	1190	6Gronk	110	75	1000	12Lloyd	100	60	975	6Hern	90	68	815	7Gaffney	50	35	450	3Branch	40	30	375	4Edelman	8	5	50	0Slater	3	1	20	0RBs	85	50	450	4Fells	4	2	25	0	630	426	5350	42
Just curious, are you projecting any injuries? I don't think Gaffney or Branch see the field that much if the top 4 guys play 16 games.
I think the Pats will rotate personnel more than in the past. I can't see either Lloyd or Gaffney coming to NE to hold a clip board. Branch might be the odd man out as he seems to have lost his ability to get separation and lost a step or two. I also think the big three (TEs and Welker) were utilized as much as they were due to the fact that Branch didn't bring much the latter part of the year and Ocho did close to nothing. I'm not sure how you go about predicting injuries for receivers and tight ends. What I projected was only 100/3 more than last season . . . but I can see the Pats exceeding those numbers. Easy schedule, still a soft defense, mostly unproven running game, etc. I still see the offense moving the ball through the air a lot more than on the ground.
 
I think the Pats will rotate personnel more than in the past.
YES!Finally someone who draws logical conclusions from the limited information we have, Belichick is not bringing in WR vets to ride the pine - they will be used unless they are idiots (see eight-five) - and both WR vets he brought in this year have familiarity with the system.
 
Good thing they don't have to face the Ravens and Giants every week. The Packers got shut down by the Giants, too, so I suppose we should write off their offense as easy to defend.I don't see how adding Lloyd and Gaffney can be viewed as HURTING the offense and their productivity. Having a deeper set of receivers will only HELP the offense by giving them more options. They now have capable players, while not elite, know what they are doing and can be counted on to be where they are supposed to be. Between Lloyd and Gaffney, they added two players that had almost 2,000 combined receiving yards last year. Of the top passing teams from last year, which other team got better in that area?
Way to take things completely out of context. When did I say we should write off the Pats offense? I'm simply providing support that contradicts the notion that "no NFL D has answers for them." That seems to be the OP thesis and it is simply untrue.Also, when did I say adding Lloyd and Gaffney would HURT them? Again, I'm simply pointing out that this is NOT a team with 4 elite options in the passing game.
 
but it's a good point , and people should slow down on this best offense in history stuff.last year, the pats played 4 games against 3 legit playoff teams, I think (no, I don't count den).they were 1/4,and easily could have been 0/4, scoring around 19 ppg.so, before they have a historically great offense, maybe they should start by creating an offense that can beat playoff teams in 2012.
:goodposting: Pretty much how I see it too.I forgot about the Gronk injury for the SB. Good call.The fact still remains that NYG adapted and played NE significantly better the 2nd time around. Perhaps the rest of the league will look at what Balt, NYG and Pitt (a team I didn't even mention before) did and be better prepared to slow the Pats down.
 
I agree that Lloyd didn't come to NE to hold a clipboard, and I don't think that will be his role. Gaffney, however, probably came to see limited action as a steady vet. I can't imagine he has any illusions about his abilities in 2012. We've see Gaffney on other teams, and my memories of NE's playoff games with Rechebar Gaffwell at WR still chill my soul.

I think the OP's motivation was to point out that, for all the focus on what did and didn't work for the Patriots offense in 2011, the addition of Lloyd and maturation of the established players take things to another level.

You win in the NFL by drawing double teams. Gronk and Welker both require double teams. Rob Ryan doubled both and had some success because he had decent one-on-one options to handle Hernandez and "Other Pats WR." Hernandez and Gronk should continue improving. Now Lloyd comes in, demanding yet another double team. You have to choose one (or, more likely, two) or the receiving options to leave poorly covered, and each of the four receivers is dangerous enough to make you pay. Whoever is left alone on Gronk becomes invisible. Play off of Welker and Brady uses him as a running back with short passes. Single coverage on either Lloyd or Hernandez means big gains down field.

I have one dynasty league (contract style), and the only Pats player I have is Gronk. I'm not a Pats homer. That said, I really am looking forward to seeing what this offense can do next season.

 
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I feel that Welker fills the place of an already underrated NE ground game. Welker creates tons of 2nd and 2 opportunities. I am inclined to agree that this could be the best offense ever. Belicheck has proven to not take his foot off the medal and Brady with that many weapons is just plain frightening. Man it sucks being a Jets fan.

 
well, fortunately, we won't need to see 400 touches from ridley because this isn't a single back cam cameron offense.if it was, ridley would probably look like tomlinson.everybody always has such short memories, so I thought I'd look a few things up.a few years ago, back when he was just rookie ray rice, before he became RAY RICE :eek: !!, it looks like he logged 107 carries, which compares pretty evenly to ridley's 90, with a 4.2 ypc compared with ridley's 5.0.rookie ray had one 20+ yd run for every 35.6 carries, so he's improved a bit to his current 20+ yard run every 32.3 carries, but still not quite as good as ridley's 17 carry mark, which was on par with forte, fred jackson, and mcfadden last year.maybe give him another few years and people will be naming ridley in their would you rathers.pssince I threw tomlinson's name out there, he had a 3.6 ypc his rookie year, with one 20+ run every 48 carries.
This is a joke right? rookie year YPC defining careers?amount of 20+ yard runs being a defining factor of a RBs skills?...since when?you cannot even begin to compare situations. How would Ray Rice do with the Patriots o-line and Tom Brady throwing the ball? nothing against Ridley, I actually kind of liked how he looked his rookie year, but, this might be the most ridiculous logic I've heard in a while LOLI'm gonna take this as some really, really professional shtick...
 
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