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Merged Spygate thread

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1 minute ago, BassNBrew said:

This ain't golf.

Its who you are. If you're cheater, you're a loser before and after anything gets played.

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12 hours ago, Faust said:

Unreal they would continue to do this in the face of the NFL after the Mangini/Jets revealed they do it, after deflategate, after the owner got caught in an illegal prostitution/potential human trafficking charges, one might think they would try to keep their nose clean...I'm not sure what Goodell can actually do but the NFL version of The Death Penalty in the NCAA needs to be well thought out. They should be stripped of an entire Draft for like 3 years, turn them into an expansion team and let them climb their way out of that. 

Pats fans need to sit this one out and realize they aren't the problem here and as painful as it is to see this unfold again, you can't be angry at NFL fans from other teams being outraged or even try to act like this is common in the NFL. That video was shocking to watch and props to Cinci and the NFL for releasing it, let the public make their minds up. 

Disgusting, just disgusting. I don't care if it gives them a .00000000001% advantage, it's outlawed in the NFL and the other 31 teams seem to get the message. 

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56 minutes ago, Endowed said:

I actually do the sponsorship-business for some pro stock cars in California. And I get a little peeved at the teams that dont push the rules. True story.

:drive:

Interesting how some sports cheating is considering no huge deal and part of the tradition of the game while it's a no-no in others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo_u4pMAlx0  HOFer

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The team that has been serially caught for cheating "accidentally" cheated is like a serial adulterer tripping and falling to accidentally have intercourse with a woman.

Anyone defending this nonsense should be ashamed of themselves.

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6 minutes ago, Faust said:

 

2 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

The team that has been serially caught for cheating "accidentally" cheated is like a serial adulterer tripping and falling to accidentally have intercourse with a woman.

Anyone defending this nonsense should be ashamed of themselves.

If you read the story above and the evidence backs it up (meaning they have footage following the scout the entire week), I think "accident cheating" applies.  Especially if press credentials weren't obtained at any other NFL stadiums previously or obtained for future games.

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9 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I saw a tweet today that NE did not ask for media credentials or send a video crew to any other non Patriots game this year except that one game in CLE vs. CIN. 

I saw a tweet today that said the Patriots were caught cheating AGAIN.

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4 hours ago, FreeBaGeL said:

The team that has been serially caught for cheating "accidentally" cheated is like a serial adulterer tripping and falling to accidentally have intercourse with a woman.

Anyone defending this nonsense should be ashamed of themselves.

Terry Bradshaw, Jimmy Johnson

Strahan on the other hand was one of the few that obviously thinks they are cheaters

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WordSmiths coming out of the woods in every direction to play semantics.

The NFL and Cinci Security knew what they saw, he is employed by the Patriots and I don't care if BB and Kraft deny knowledge, they work for the Patriots and they cheated again, it's cut and dry, good job by Jay Glazer to push that video onto the air for everyone to watch. 

It doesn't matter if the "Clerk" is an intimate friend of the "Coach" or has lunch or dinner with him, none of that matters. I bet BB doesn't know this turkey very well but somebody under him that is in charge of this DOES KNOW and he was put there by BILL BELICHICK to "Do a Job", couldn't be a better title for a bogus film crew.  

 

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Substitution patterns? Seriously? This info is far more easily obtained through the all 22 that gives game context, down and distance, etc...  This appears to be B Roll footage showing what a scout sees from that vantage point. 

Tempest in a teapot.

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8 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Unreal they would continue to do this in the face of the NFL after the Mangini/Jets revealed they do it, after deflategate, after the owner got caught in an illegal prostitution/potential human trafficking charges, one might think they would try to keep their nose clean...I'm not sure what Goodell can actually do but the NFL version of The Death Penalty in the NCAA needs to be well thought out. They should be stripped of an entire Draft for like 3 years, turn them into an expansion team and let them climb their way out of that. 

 

 Cheaters cheat, it doesn't matter if they get caught, they're going to keep doing it because it is who they are.  The NFL should come down hard but they won't 

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1 hour ago, Ministry of Pain said:

WordSmiths coming out of the woods in every direction to play semantics.

The NFL and Cinci Security knew what they saw, he is employed by the Patriots and I don't care if BB and Kraft deny knowledge, they work for the Patriots and they cheated again, it's cut and dry, good job by Jay Glazer to push that video onto the air for everyone to watch. 

It doesn't matter if the "Clerk" is an intimate friend of the "Coach" or has lunch or dinner with him, none of that matters. I bet BB doesn't know this turkey very well but somebody under him that is in charge of this DOES KNOW and he was put there by BILL BELICHICK to "Do a Job", couldn't be a better title for a bogus film crew.  

 

The best part of the video is where the film crew member is basically trying to get Bengal's security to allow him to delete the footage as if it's a favor to the Bengals to do so and it's not deleting evidence.

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44 minutes ago, Workhorse said:

Substitution patterns? Seriously? This info is far more easily obtained through the all 22 that gives game context, down and distance, etc...  This appears to be B Roll footage showing what a scout sees from that vantage point. 

Tempest in a teapot.

That is an awful lot of B roll.  Also, if they were righteous their reaction would have been much different.  Not denying and offering to delete and can't we forget the whole thing.  No, the righteous would have been, "we are authorized to be here, talk to ( whoever authorized presence), he will tell you. Yeah we will burn you a copy but this is ours, we were approved, and we need it for our production and we have a schedule, now go get (Person who authorized)."

 

This does not pass the smell test.    

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If I was calling the game yesterday I would have commented on Stephon Gilmore jumping routes and getting INT's.  "Why its almost as if he knows their signals, like he was in their huddle!"

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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48 minutes ago, Workhorse said:

Substitution patterns? Seriously? This info is far more easily obtained through the all 22 that gives game context, down and distance, etc...  This appears to be B Roll footage showing what a scout sees from that vantage point. 

Tempest in a teapot.

In the grand scheme of things this is really no big deal - but the Patriots continue to try a push the limits in every way possible and that is a big deal. I really don't knw what the penalty should be nor do I really care but I do love watching Pat fans try time and time again to show us all "there's nothing to see here" instead of just admitting that their team cheats and they don't care.

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

In the grand scheme of things this is really no big deal - but the Patriots continue to try a push the limits in every way possible and that is a big deal. I really don't knw what the penalty should be nor do I really care but I do love watching Pat fans try time and time again to show us all "there's nothing to see here" instead of just admitting that their team cheats and they don't care.

It needs to be severe if the NFL cares about cheaters.  Otherwise just let eliminate the rule and let everyone do whatever they want.

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I always think of this matter intellectually as Kraft cheating his business partners out of their fair opportunity to reap partnership benefits because that is actually what this is.

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

That is an awful lot of B roll.  Also, if they were righteous their reaction would have been much different.  Not denying and offering to delete and can't we forget the whole thing.  No, the righteous would have been, "we are authorized to be here, talk to ( whoever authorized presence), he will tell you. Yeah we will burn you a copy but this is ours, we were approved, and we need it for our production and we have a schedule, now go get (Person who authorized)."

 

This does not pass the smell test.    

I used to work for a production company back in the day.  For a 10 minute video, we would often shoot 2x-3x that time in B Roll. That's how that stuff works typically.

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5 minutes ago, Workhorse said:

I used to work for a production company back in the day.  For a 10 minute video, we would often shoot 2x-3x that time in B Roll. That's how that stuff works typically.

Sure.  But for a 30 minute video following a person for a week, his prep, his travel, his activity and responsibility where there may be 3 to 5 minutes of him in the game day booth would you shoot 8 minutes of film from the booth without him in the shot at all?    No, there would be film of him greeting other advanced scouts.  Film of him hitting the buffet.  Film of him setting up his laptop and his pregame notes, film of him looking down with his binoculars, but not 8 minutes without him at all. Sorry, not buying it.  We are talking about maybe an anticipated 20 second shot of just the sideline where he is not also in the shot.  No way they have 8 minutes of that for that type of shot.  also, had they not been interrupted it seems like it would have been more. 

 

Does not pass the smell test to me.  Does it really pass to you?  If it does I will have to rethink matters, deferring to your apparently greater knowledge base.

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19 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Sure.  But for a 30 minute video following a person for a week, his prep, his travel, his activity and responsibility where there may be 3 to 5 minutes of him in the game day booth would you shoot 8 minutes of film from the booth without him in the shot at all?    No, there would be film of him greeting other advanced scouts.  Film of him hitting the buffet.  Film of him setting up his laptop and his pregame notes, film of him looking down with his binoculars, but not 8 minutes without him at all. Sorry, not buying it.  We are talking about maybe an anticipated 20 second shot of just the sideline where he is not also in the shot.  No way they have 8 minutes of that for that type of shot.  also, had they not been interrupted it seems like it would have been more. 

 

Does not pass the smell test to me.  Does it really pass to you?  If it does I will have to rethink matters, deferring to your apparently greater knowledge base.

I agree with you here. 

Conflicted as it doesn’t pass the smell test but the facts don’t align with this being a team orchestrated operation to gain an advantage. 

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35 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Sure.  But for a 30 minute video following a person for a week, his prep, his travel, his activity and responsibility where there may be 3 to 5 minutes of him in the game day booth would you shoot 8 minutes of film from the booth without him in the shot at all?    No, there would be film of him greeting other advanced scouts.  Film of him hitting the buffet.  Film of him setting up his laptop and his pregame notes, film of him looking down with his binoculars, but not 8 minutes without him at all. Sorry, not buying it.  We are talking about maybe an anticipated 20 second shot of just the sideline where he is not also in the shot.  No way they have 8 minutes of that for that type of shot.  also, had they not been interrupted it seems like it would have been more. 

 

Does not pass the smell test to me.  Does it really pass to you?  If it does I will have to rethink matters, deferring to your apparently greater knowledge base.

Sure it does. The documentary is about an advance scout who is sitting in the press box talking about what he's looking for during a game:  Substitution patterns, formations, etc...  A crew would shoot B Roll of all of those things with the scout's voice-over describing those things. It makes perfect sense. As for what else they shot, we have no idea since none of us have seen that footage -- The video on Fox from Glazer was simply the recording of that video screen and a partial back and forth between them and security. I'm sure that the league has all of it since the video card was turned over.  At this point, the NFL knows better than any of us what that crew shot.

The Patriots are 100% guilty of being stupid by allowing their documentary team to exist independently of the operations folks so that they weren't in a position to put the kibosh on this kind of thing to eliminate the appearance of impropriety. 

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31 minutes ago, Workhorse said:

Sure it does. The documentary is about an advance scout who is sitting in the press box talking about what he's looking for during a game:  Substitution patterns, formations, etc...  A crew would shoot B Roll of all of those things with the scout's voice-over describing those things. It makes perfect sense. As for what else they shot, we have no idea since none of us have seen that footage -- The video on Fox from Glazer was simply the recording of that video screen and a partial back and forth between them and security. I'm sure that the league has all of it since the video card was turned over.  At this point, the NFL knows better than any of us what that crew shot.

The Patriots are 100% guilty of being stupid by allowing their documentary team to exist independently of the operations folks so that they weren't in a position to put the kibosh on this kind of thing to eliminate the appearance of impropriety. 

Even if the 'what I do on my job' part of the documentary makes sense, aren't there a number of other cities they can fly to rather than the game of your next week's opponent? There really is no explaining why they covered that component of the documentary in that particular stadium, at that time.

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1 hour ago, Workhorse said:

I used to work for a production company back in the day.  For a 10 minute video, we would often shoot 2x-3x that time in B Roll. That's how that stuff works typically.

And when someone walked in on your shooting that B Roll, was your reaction typically "Hello, can I help you?", or something more along the lines of "oh ####, don't tell anyone you saw us here and we can delete footage.  We will totally delete the footage my man, no one everrrr needs to see what we were filming here, just let us delete it, forget this ever happened, and we'll be on our way".

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3 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

The best part of the video is where the film crew member is basically trying to get Bengal's security to allow him to delete the footage as if it's a favor to the Bengals to do so and it's not deleting evidence.

How would someone innocent react in this scenario? Not at all how it played out with this guy

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46 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

Even if the 'what I do on my job' part of the documentary makes sense, aren't there a number of other cities they can fly to rather than the game of your next week's opponent? There really is no explaining why they covered that component of the documentary in that particular stadium, at that time.

I hate to take the side of the Pats in any way, but the whole point of an advance scout is sending him to a future opponent’s game to scout. So it wouldn’t make much sense to send the guy to watch Green Bay play.

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I'm actually pretty impressed that New England had the nerve to film a team's sideline after being punished for doing that exact same thing before.  You don't see that level of resolve very often, and I commend the Patriots for their commitment to cheating.

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28 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Sure.  But for a 30 minute video following a person for a week, his prep, his travel, his activity and responsibility where there may be 3 to 5 minutes of him in the game day booth would you shoot 8 minutes of film from the booth without him in the shot at all?    No, there would be film of him greeting other advanced scouts.  Film of him hitting the buffet.  Film of him setting up his laptop and his pregame notes, film of him looking down with his binoculars, but not 8 minutes without him at all. Sorry, not buying it.  We are talking about maybe an anticipated 20 second shot of just the sideline where he is not also in the shot.  No way they have 8 minutes of that for that type of shot.  also, had they not been interrupted it seems like it would have been more. 

 

Does not pass the smell test to me.  Does it really pass to you?  If it does I will have to rethink matters, deferring to your apparently greater knowledge base.

IMO, there is a major difference between cheating (intending or conspiring to get a competitive advantage) and a rules violation (breaking a league rule by accident, stupidity, or miscommunication). To me, this is the latter.

Based on what has come out . . . 

- The Do Your Job web series has featured all types of people involved with the Patriots organization . . . trainers, equipment people, game day operations staff, scouting for draft prep, dieticians, video production, etc. (most of the people featured have NOTHING to do with coaching).
- It does not appear they have ever put anything together for the Do Your Job series at another stadium before. The crew in question had never shot any footage for the show that involved any team other than NE on game day before.
- The main Kraft Productions film crew was in NE for the Chiefs game and this was a contracted crew sent to put a piece together on an advanced scout.
- NE approached the Browns and got permission and credentials to bring in a crew, equipment, and to tape things from the press box.
- The advanced scout in the video was scouting the Bengals . . . which only makes sense seeing how that's who they were facing next. If they really wanted to covertly get an advantage over someone . . . wouldn't they have tried to do it against the Ravens or Chiefs rather than the Bengals?
- The press box in Cleveland is on the visiting side of the field . . . and anything a scout would see looking straight down would be of the visiting team not the home team.
- People apparently have done the research and found that the Patriots did not ask for video credentials to shoot at any other NFL game this season . . . so it does not appear that there was an ongoing scheme to pretend to send a fake video crew to tape the field from the press box.
- Some folks have reviewed the Browns / Bengals game and found that the Bengals called all their plays over the head set and they did not use secondary hand signals to audible plays or alignments. Essentially, everything that was observable on the NE taped footage was accessible through other legal videotape footage.
- If, as alleged by NE, the video crew was showing things from the perspective of the scout looking over the field, it would make sense that they wanted to show some of what happens in game and what they might be looking at. It makes sense to me that they would have some B roll footage to cut to when explaining what the scout sees. The production team likely should have known better, but a guy brought in just to shoot at a different stadium as a newbie contractor may not have known (but probably should have). The producer definitively should have known (seeing how he said he was involved shooting stuff for NE for 18 years.)

Blending all of that together, I happen to believe the story NE is selling . . . that it was miscommunication and was an isolated incident (as far as the Do Your Job crew goes) and was not something that came from or would be used by the coaching staff. Why the videographer was sent to Cleveland to shoot the footage he did seems like just a dumb decision. 

That being said, NE lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago, but to me this does not indicate a massive cover up and I don't think this was an attempt to intentionally cheat to gain a competitive advantage. Thus why I said I think it is a rules violation and not an on-going cheating scandal. Given other game day rules violations by other teams, if another team did something like this, I would expect a $250,000 fine and being docked a late round draft pick. Since it is NE, I would guess they will be fined double to triple the going rate and lose a middle round draft pick (ie, one of their compensatory picks). Maybe someone in the front office will also get fined or get pinned with a brief suspension. I don't think anything will happen to BB. That's my opinion, and everyone can have their own opinion and conclusions.

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1 hour ago, GroveDiesel said:

I hate to take the side of the Pats in any way, but the whole point of an advance scout is sending him to a future opponent’s game to scout. So it wouldn’t make much sense to send the guy to watch Green Bay play.

Meh, on a documentary about what a guy does I don't see why it needs to be concerning a real opponent the next week. It could be any team. It's not like a viewer cares about whether what s/he is seeing in the documentary is actual prep or a general approach to prep. And that's the thing... aren't they saying it is not actual prep, and if it were actual prep that is a problem?

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5 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

In the grand scheme of things this is really no big deal - but the Patriots continue to try a push the limits in every way possible and that is a big deal. I really don't knw what the penalty should be nor do I really care but I do love watching Pat fans try time and time again to show us all "there's nothing to see here" instead of just admitting that their team cheats and they don't care.

The Patriots cheat, and I don't care. 

Still, at this point, I'd be happy with suspensions for BB & Kraft for being jackasses. I'm pretty tired of their overstepping of the lines leading these asinine weeks of media frenzy, be it due to ignorance or continued intentional instructions.

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Fact is the greatest dynasty in sports will be forever tainted with the smell of cheating.

Credibility... much like virginity... once it is lost, well, ya know.

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Not a Pats fan....

So what was so bad about videoing, aside from the fact that videoing an opponent is against the rules?  I mean can't they just got the all 22 tape (that the average fan can't get)?  The regular TV feed can show who goes in and out on different plays.  So what extra could they get from this?  There are no signals anymore, it's all audio in the helmets, right?

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On 12/10/2019 at 8:44 PM, Buffaloes said:

Pats* fans have played this wrong imo. The victim, poor us shtick is unbecoming of a heel.

Heels walking out like Hollywood Hogan playing the guitar on the fake championship belt while buff bagwell films the opposition's hand signals, Kevin Nash sneaks into walk through, Scott hall lets air pressure out of the balls, and Scott steiner pops some PEDs before winning super bowl mvp.

 

Pats* fans, you guys are heels in this entertainment industry. Own it. Or in the parliance of new England, Do your job.

I dabble with this strategy occasionally, but it typically results in a ban.

So the standard schtick is you all are wannabe crybabies who can't own up to the fact that your teams are second rate, so you take solace in the comforting embrace of the asterisk.

Good thing we deflated those balls; never would have beat the Colts without that advantage.  Oh wait...

 

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2 hours ago, BigJim® said:

Meh, on a documentary about what a guy does I don't see why it needs to be concerning a real opponent the next week. It could be any team. It's not like a viewer cares about whether what s/he is seeing in the documentary is actual prep or a general approach to prep. And that's the thing... aren't they saying it is not actual prep, and if it were actual prep that is a problem?

For the video it wouldn't matter. However, for the scout to actually do his job he has to be scouting the team they're going to play.

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15 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

I dabble with this strategy occasionally, but it typically results in a ban.

So the standard schtick is you all are wannabe crybabies who can't own up to the fact that your teams are second rate, so you take solace in the comforting embrace of the asterisk.

Good thing we deflated those balls; never would have beat the Colts without that advantage.  Oh wait...

 

Your team cheated to beat the Bengals.  That's like running a race against crippled children and deliberately jumping the start.

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The Patriots have won 6 superbowls. I don't think Kraft, Belichick, or Brady will lose any sleep if there are sanctions for this latest infraction. They are all fat and happy. 

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1 hour ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

I dabble with this strategy occasionally, but it typically results in a ban.

So the standard schtick is you all are wannabe crybabies who can't own up to the fact that your teams are second rate, so you take solace in the comforting embrace of the asterisk.

Good thing we deflated those balls; never would have beat the Colts without that advantage.  Oh wait...

 

The * is the truth. You're the one living the lie

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3 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Your team cheated to beat the Bengals.  That's like running a race against crippled children and deliberately jumping the start.

Somehow I can picture BB in his racing hoodie doing exactly that.

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https://www.businessinsider.com/espn-report-patriots-spygate-scandal-2015-9

Quote

Soon, advanced scouts would be sent to the games of upcoming Patriots' opponents to film the play signals. The scouts would go undercover as media members, with media credentials listed under "Patriots TV" or "Kraft Productions" and were prepared with excuses of what to say they were filming if security asked.

Seems awfully familiar 

Edited by Dr. Dan
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8 hours ago, BigJim® said:

Even if the 'what I do on my job' part of the documentary makes sense, aren't there a number of other cities they can fly to rather than the game of your next week's opponent? There really is no explaining why they covered that component of the documentary in that particular stadium, at that time.

Doesn't the advance scout scout the team you're about to play?

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17 minutes ago, DropKick said:

Doesn't the advance scout scout the team you're about to play?

Yes, I guess that makes sense. Still, 8 minutes of footage of the sideline without this guy in the video (ETA: reportedly)? It's stretches logic.  

Edited by BigJim®

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53 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

Yes, I guess that makes sense. Still, 8 minutes of footage of the sideline without this guy in the video (ETA: reportedly)? It's stretches logic.  

I only saw about 20 seconds online... looked about as useful as a TV shot.  I think this is a guy just being stupid but let the league dissect it.

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10 hours ago, Mark Football said:

The Patriots have won 6 superbowls. I don't think Kraft, Belichick, or Brady will lose any sleep if there are sanctions for this latest infraction. They are all fat and happy. 

Fat, happy, and cheaters.  Always have that going for them....along with that *

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15 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Your team cheated to beat the Bengals.  That's like running a race against crippled children and deliberately jumping the start.

/thread

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