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Ran a 10k - Official Thread

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2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Only +15 from MP seems aggressive.  I often run about +45 or so and I run a narrower range than most of the runners here.  

(her MP isn't 8:30)

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3 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Only +15 from MP seems aggressive.  I often run about +45 or so and I run a narrower range than most of the runners here.  

It's way aggressive. I don't like the sound of this already.

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6 minutes ago, gruecd said:

By "easy" does he mean "recovery" or "general aerobic?"  That's way too fast for GA runs (what my coach calls "glue" runs).  When I'm training to race at sub-6:50 pace, my GA pace tends to be in the 7:30-8:00 range.  If he meant recovery, that's REALLY too fast.

9-minute pace is about 7% slower than 8:25 pace, whereas 7:45 pace is 13% slower than 6:50 pace.  

It's pretty much everything that isn't a workout. 

Let these be guides. Some days you have a little more and some a little less. In this block go
on the side of a little slower if in any doubt.


Easy(E): 8:45-9:15 minutes/mile
Marathon Pace (MP): 8:15-8:30 minutes/mile
1⁄2 Marathon Pace(HMP): 7:45-8:15 minutes/mile
10k Pace: 7:25-7:45 minutes/mile
5k Pace 7:05-7:25 minutes/mile

Edited by Cowboy Dan

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2 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

It's pretty much everything that isn't a workout. 

Let these be guides. Some days you have a little more and some a little less. In this block go
on the side of a little slower if in any doubt.


Easy(E): 8:45-9:15 minutes/mile
Marathon Pace (MP): 8:15-8:30 minutes/mile
1⁄2 Marathon Pace(HMP): 7:45-8:15 minutes/mile
10k Pace: 7:25-7:45 minutes/mile
5k Pace 7:05-7:25 minutes/mile

Probably best to follow the coach's advice but start out on the slower side of the range for a while and see how it goes.

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2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Probably best to follow the coach's advice but start out on the slower side of the range for a while and see how it goes.

Disagree, and disagree with not differentiating between GA and recovery.  I'd question it.  Good lord, I'm a sub-3 marathoner, and some of my easy recovery runs are 8:30+.

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12 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Only +15 from MP seems aggressive.  I often run about +45 or so and I run a narrower range than most of the runners here.  

I also have a narrow range.  Most of my runs, which are 'easy' runs, are around 8:25-8:30, which is maybe 30-40 seconds/mile slower than MP.  So I would think Mrs. @Cowboy Dan could be running around 9:00, give or take, without detriment.  My feeling is that if I were to run over a minute/mile slower than MP, the slow tempo and short stepping is doing more harm than good.  I'd almost have to revert to heel striking at a 9:00+ pace.

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5 minutes ago, gruecd said:

Disagree, and disagree with not differentiating between GA and recovery.  I'd question it.  Good lord, I'm a sub-3 marathoner, and some of my easy recovery runs are 8:30+.

I may be the one making a mistake, but I don't have a strong opinion on GA vs recovery. I've really gotten away from the former in training. Anytime it's on the schedule I think to myself am I really going to get anything out of this? or are they just junk miles? Then I would try to map out enough time to reschedule the GA as a MLR...or add some juice to it at the end (LMF or strides)...or do that GA run on hills/trails, etc. 

For me there seems to be a couple times give or take during training a GA felt like the right thing to do. 'Glue' as you put it - bridging the gap between 2 short cycles when I don't think my body is quite yet ready for SoS and needs some extra recovery time. Otherwise it just isn't a priority for me.

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22 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

It's pretty much everything that isn't a workout. 

Let these be guides. Some days you have a little more and some a little less. In this block go
on the side of a little slower if in any doubt.


Easy(E): 8:45-9:15 minutes/mile
Marathon Pace (MP): 8:15-8:30 minutes/mile
1⁄2 Marathon Pace(HMP): 7:45-8:15 minutes/mile
10k Pace: 7:25-7:45 minutes/mile
5k Pace 7:05-7:25 minutes/mile

These paces aren't all that far off from McMillan when you plug in a 1:45:43 half, but McMillan differentiates between easy runs and recovery jogs. To me it looks like the coach left out recovery jog paces. Personally I am only concerned about pace when running a workout, otherwise I just go with whatever is comfortable.      

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9 minutes ago, pbm107 said:

These paces aren't all that far off from McMillan when you plug in a 1:45:43 half, but McMillan differentiates between easy runs and recovery jogs. To me it looks like the coach left out recovery jog paces. Personally I am only concerned about pace when running a workout, otherwise I just go with whatever is comfortable.      

Thanks, that's reassuring.

I'm not jumping in or interfering here. Just going to let her do her thing and hope it goes well for her. Was just curious what some of you thought as that seemed like a very narrow range.

As such, though, we won't be running together for a while. Our fitness levels are way off right now and combined with the plan, I'll just be working on getting myself back. 

Turned the corner this morning with my recovery and feel great and mentally ready to get back out there. This morning felt good.  Girls are back to school (for now) so it'll be quite easy for me to get out there each day now.

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17 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

Turned the corner this morning with my recovery and feel great and mentally ready to get back out there. This morning felt good.  Girls are back to school (for now) so it'll be quite easy for me to get out there each day now.

Cowboy Up!

:deadhorse:

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33 minutes ago, pbm107 said:

These paces aren't all that far off from McMillan when you plug in a 1:45:43 half, but McMillan differentiates between easy runs and recovery jogs. To me it looks like the coach left out recovery jog paces. Personally I am only concerned about pace when running a workout, otherwise I just go with whatever is comfortable.      

Like I told Jake Gyllenhaal over here, I hope I’m wrong!

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Howdy @Cowboy Dan 🤠

Have you seen any sample workouts to tell how much time the coach has Mrs at MP and faster?  I run on the wider range of easy (agree that easy is a feel more so than pace) particularly on first few miles and let progression happen. 

Also, any HR guidance/observation from Coach or is this pace based?

Lastly, does the coach know you frequent a running thread with multiple doctors? 

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2 minutes ago, bushdocda said:

Howdy @Cowboy Dan 🤠

Have you seen any sample workouts to tell how much time the coach has Mrs at MP and faster?  I run on the wider range of easy (agree that easy is a feel more so than pace) particularly on first few miles and let progression happen. 

Also, any HR guidance/observation from Coach or is this pace based?

Lastly, does the coach know you frequent a running thread with multiple doctors? 

Ha...

Not HR based.

First 6 weeks are all that are mapped out right now and it's a pretty slow buildup. It's 20ish building up to 35 mpw right now. 2 workouts per week and a long run, get easy runs in between. I haven't looked that closely but when I previewed it, nothing really stood out that much.

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2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

First 6 weeks are all that are mapped out right now and it's a pretty slow buildup. It's 20ish building up to 35 mpw right now. 2 workouts per week and a long run, get easy runs in between. I haven't looked that closely but when I previewed it, nothing really stood out that much.

I haven't heard anything here about possible adjustments due to looming winter weather, so you must live down south ...and therefore you're certainly adapted to warm weather runs and, in fact, must love running on a really hot summer day!

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3 minutes ago, gruecd said:

Pulled out this classic for my run this afternoon. @tri-man 47, are you and I the only two OGs left in the thread?

Ah, yes!!!  I recall having my daughter take a picture of me doing a lunge step on the steps of the Sydney Opera House in this shirt (much to her embarrassment).  

@Sand (no avatar?) is still around whenever he gets his fat butt out on his bike.  I know we're both still in touch with quite a number of the guys from the Bourbon Chase.  Finish line announcement: "Arriving now ...from, the internet ..."  Crazy Jim (pigskinliquors) driving up from Texas just for the after-party.  :lmao:

BTW, a FB feed popped up that Fall 50 pic from twelve years ago.  Word.  We've built some great memories, my friend.

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4 hours ago, tri-man 47 said:

Ah, yes!!!  I recall having my daughter take a picture of me doing a lunge step on the steps of the Sydney Opera House in this shirt (much to her embarrassment).  

@Sand (no avatar?) is still around whenever he gets his fat butt out on his bike.  I know we're both still in touch with quite a number of the guys from the Bourbon Chase.  Finish line announcement: "Arriving now ...from, the internet ..."  Crazy Jim (pigskinliquors) driving up from Texas just for the after-party.  :lmao:

BTW, a FB feed popped up that Fall 50 pic from twelve years ago.  Word.  We've built some great memories, my friend.

We sure have, GB.  :thumbup:

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Got an email from nyrr to pick up my race t-shirt and medal from the 1/2 that got cancelled in March in one of reserved timeslots over the next three days.

At first I felt like...bleh...didn't race it, so why get that stuff. But then I figured I paid for a t-shirt at least, so checked the available slots. All full. ####### nyc.

Still no word on rescheduling for next year.

Nice 0.2m pickups this morning. Feel like I've been lagging on my workout runs since going back into an office. Tough to want to exert right after waking up without a long warmup. I only have time to run 4-5m in the mornings, so not much time for a warm-up  

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In news that should surprise absolutely nobody, Boston officially postponed until AT LEAST the fall of 2021.  :thumbdown:

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17 minutes ago, gruecd said:

In news that should surprise absolutely nobody, Boston officially postponed until AT LEAST the fall of 2021.  :thumbdown:

Glad they were smaht and announced this early. It was inevitable. Just hoping it restarts in 22 then I can make a run at qualifying for 23.

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2 hours ago, gruecd said:

In news that should surprise absolutely nobody, Boston officially postponed until AT LEAST the fall of 2021.  :thumbdown:

I'm disappointed, but not surprised.  I'd be OK with fall'21, as that would avoid winter training.  I'd rather train in the heat and then catch a cooler day than the other way around.  For now, I guess I keep my base going!  

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300 miles on my hokas, first 250 were dreamy and last 50 were painful.  As a 210 pounder is there a heavier duty shoe I should be looking at to get 400 miles?

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52 minutes ago, lumpy19 said:

300 miles on my hokas, first 250 were dreamy and last 50 were painful.  As a 210 pounder is there a heavier duty shoe I should be looking at to get 400 miles?

No answer to actual question but were you alternating shoes or running daily in same pair?  The former will extend foam life. 

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5 minutes ago, bushdocda said:

No answer to actual question but were you alternating shoes or running daily in same pair?  The former will extend foam life. 

I wasn’t alternating shoes but I wasn’t running daily either, alternating bike and run basically all summer to preserve my old body parts.

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I’m extremely hesitant to say this but here it goes. It may get down to 68 degrees for the low on Saturday morning. That’s glove running weather for the old @JShare87.

Edited by JShare87
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1 minute ago, JShare87 said:

I’m extremely hesitant to say this but here it goes. It may get down to 68 degrees for the low on Saturday morning. That’s glove running weather for the old @JShare87.

If it gets to 65, do you bust out the tights? 

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1 hour ago, lumpy19 said:

300 miles on my hokas, first 250 were dreamy and last 50 were painful.  As a 210 pounder is there a heavier duty shoe I should be looking at to get 400 miles?

I’m 210ish and I wear relatively light shoes. Generally get 400 miles without any problems.

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54 minutes ago, Brony said:

If it gets to 65, do you bust out the tights? 

I’m an adult male, I don’t own tights. 

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Welp.  Signed up for a trail ultra marathon on Sunday.  If I'm not gonna do long runs while training, I might as well just sign up for races which will force me to run.

 

Smaller race with nearly 5,000 feet of elevation.  Its a 5 loop race....each loop is a 10K.

 

I haven't been running much and I've been babying my glute.

 

Only 84 entrants, of course 23 of which are in the 40-49 age group.  In 4 months, I'll be in the 50-59 age group which would guarantee me a top 3 placement as there are only 2 entrants for 50-59 AG. 

 

I'm going to try to run with a woman who wants to try to break the women's record in the event of 5:34.  She said her goal is to run a 1:05 for each of the 10K.  Not sure if I can stay with her as she runs a lot of trails and lots of elevation.  Her first road marathon was last year and she ran a 3:40.  I may fade badly at the end.  We will see.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

nearly 5,000 feet of elevation. 

I haven't been running much and I've been babying my glute.

I'm sure this will end well for you.  :unsure:

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13 hours ago, JShare87 said:

I’m extremely hesitant to say this but here it goes. It may get down to 68 degrees for the low on Saturday morning. That’s glove running weather for the old @JShare87.

40F this morning for me in DFW (people tell me this is unseasonably cold for here).  Windy.  Went with a long-sleeve, shorts, and gloves.  Ball cap, no touque.  

I have tights, but find them largely ineffective.  Either I wear shorts (down to about 20F), or soft shell pants (below 20F).

Will still take this weather vs @JShare87's 10 times out of 10.

Edited by Zasada
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13 hours ago, JShare87 said:

I’m an adult male, I don’t own tights. 

:rolleyes:

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51 minutes ago, Zasada said:

Will still take this weather vs @JShare87's 10 times out of 10.

:goodposting:

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14 hours ago, JShare87 said:

I’m extremely hesitant to say this but here it goes. It may get down to 68 degrees for the low on Saturday morning. That’s glove running weather for the old @JShare87.

I thought of you when I busted out the gloves last week when it was 42 and windy.  Was definitely the right choice :bowtie:

Also, I'll add that the correct answer for us of the simian persuasion is shorts above 40, pants below 40, shorts and pants below 20 for general runs.  For I race, shorts until down around 25-30 depending on the wind.

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@Harris -- haven't heard from you in a bit, and France is going back into lockdown.  All OK with you there?

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6 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

I thought of you when I busted out the gloves last week when it was 42 and windy.  Was definitely the right choice :bowtie:

Also, I'll add that the correct answer for us of the simian persuasion is shorts above 40, pants below 40, shorts and pants below 20 for general runs.  For I race, shorts until down around 25-30 depending on the wind.

My clothing decisions depend more on the 'feels like,' amount of snow (if applicable), and whether the sun is out than temperature. Type of workout also matters but if the conditions are that bad I'm probably not doing a workout unless it's the middle of winter, there have been several bad weather days in a row, and I don't have access to a dreadmill.

I won't race in anything but shorts and agree that 25 is about the cutoff. If it's below 25 then I just won't race. Regular running? Between about 25 and 40 depends on a lot of factors. Last winter when I started paying more attention to these details established that hands and ears need covered once into the 40's, but everything beyond that is variable. It's gotta be REAL cold a/o snowy for me to go with tights/pants rather than tights/shorts or just tights though. I'll double up on socks before resorting to pants.

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12 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

My clothing decisions depend more on the 'feels like,' amount of snow (if applicable), and whether the sun is out than temperature. Type of workout also matters but if the conditions are that bad I'm probably not doing a workout unless it's the middle of winter, there have been several bad weather days in a row, and I don't have access to a dreadmill.

I won't race in anything but shorts and agree that 25 is about the cutoff. If it's below 25 then I just won't race. Regular running? Between about 25 and 40 depends on a lot of factors. Last winter when I started paying more attention to these details established that hands and ears need covered once into the 40's, but everything beyond that is variable. It's gotta be REAL cold a/o snowy for me to go with tights/pants rather than tights/shorts or just tights though. I'll double up on socks before resorting to pants.

Wind briefs FTW

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11 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

My clothing decisions depend more on the 'feels like,' amount of snow (if applicable), and whether the sun is out than temperature. Type of workout also matters but if the conditions are that bad I'm probably not doing a workout unless it's the middle of winter, there have been several bad weather days in a row, and I don't have access to a dreadmill.

I won't race in anything but shorts and agree that 25 is about the cutoff. If it's below 25 then I just won't race. Regular running? Between about 25 and 40 depends on a lot of factors. Last winter when I started paying more attention to these details established that hands and ears need covered once into the 40's, but everything beyond that is variable. It's gotta be REAL cold a/o snowy for me to go with tights/pants rather than tights/shorts or just tights though. I'll double up on socks before resorting to pants.

Yeah, once I get into it last year, I finally got a feel for how to dress.

Gloves for anything 40's or below.  If it's upper 40's and sunny, they might come off.  Otherwise, they stay on the whole time.

I usually do fine with shorts in the 40's.  If it gets to low 40's and there's no sun and/or it's windy, then I'll throw the tights on.  Funny thing is that wearing shorts when it's really cold has never bothered me much but I THINK I run better/feel better with the tights for whatever reason when it gets that cold. 

My biggest variability is tops/layers, neck covering, and hat.  In the 40's, I sometimes get by with just a single layer long sleeve top, especially if it's sunny or if I'm running a little harder.  Otherwise, especially if gray and/or windy I'll throw on a short sleeve shirt and a light zip up.  I'll end up a little warm but it doesn't bother me that much.  No neck/face covering, no hat.

In the 30's, I'm usually doing 2 layers.  Lower 30's I have a slightly thicker zip up, but still do fine with that.  During the winter, this is where things usually felt the best.  Feel warm enough at the start (maybe a slight chill) and by the end feel really comfortable.  Neck/face covering if windy.  Hat only if in low 30's.

In the 20-30 range, I'm wearing a thermal layer and then a 2nd zip up layer.  Almost always a face/neck covering gaiter, and almost always a hat.  If it's sunny, the hat comes off mid run.

Less than 20, I just wear whatever it takes to feel comfortable at the start and I deal with whatever warmth I have.  If I need to shed a layer I will, but I'm usually at 2 and will get to 3 layers if it gets into the single digits. 

The worst thing isn't the cold.  It's the lack of sun and/or wind with it.  If it's sunny and 15, that's still a good day and much better than 35-40 with gray skies and wind.

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16 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

My clothing decisions depend more on the 'feels like,' amount of snow (if applicable), and whether the sun is out than temperature. Type of workout also matters but if the conditions are that bad I'm probably not doing a workout unless it's the middle of winter, there have been several bad weather days in a row, and I don't have access to a dreadmill.

I won't race in anything but shorts and agree that 25 is about the cutoff. If it's below 25 then I just won't race. Regular running? Between about 25 and 40 depends on a lot of factors. Last winter when I started paying more attention to these details established that hands and ears need covered once into the 40's, but everything beyond that is variable. It's gotta be REAL cold a/o snowy for me to go with tights/pants rather than tights/shorts or just tights though. I'll double up on socks before resorting to pants.

You're definitely right that it's more than just temperature.  On a perfectly calm sunny winter morning in the 20's, I might entertain the idea of shorts.  Same temperature but no sun and 20mph wind and I'm thinking about extra layers for the groin area.  I'm curious as to how the snow factors in, though - I never consider snow or lack thereof?

Also, as I mentioned before, I feel like length of run is a big factor.  If I'm only going for 30-40 minutes, I might overdress just because I don't feel like dealing with the 10 minutes of discomfort at the beginning, and by the time I'm getting overheated I'm done.  Try to do the same thing for a 90 minute long run and you're stuck in a sine wave of suck between sweating and freezing.

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Did a little speed session last night (loosely defined), and I struggled to do 4 x 800M repeats at paces I was using for multiple mile repeats last fall.  Hell, my first one was 6:31 pace, and previously I was closing out fast-finish long runs at that pace.  Ugh.  Went 3:16/3:13/3:08/3:04 with 2.5-minute jog recoveries, but it wasn't easy.

I've been doing plenty of mileage but very little quality, and in order to run fast, you obviously need to run fast.  I'm starting back up with my coach in early December, but how do you guys think I should approach the speedwork between now and then?

 

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6 minutes ago, gruecd said:

I've been doing plenty of mileage but very little quality, and in order to run fast, you obviously need to run fast.  I'm starting back up with my coach in early December, but how do you guys think I should approach the speedwork between now and then?

RF;DBAP

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@Juxtatarot & @pbm107 -- what kind of streaks are you rocking right now?  Feels like I've seen you guys running every day for quite some time.

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6 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I usually do fine with shorts in the 40's.  If it gets to low 40's and there's no sun and/or it's windy, then I'll throw the tights on.  Funny thing is that wearing shorts when it's really cold has never bothered me much but I THINK I run better/feel better with the tights for whatever reason when it gets that cold. 

I know exactly what you're talking about.  I hate being cold in the torso or feet but cold legs don't bother me too much.  I have run into some times in the winter where I try to do intervals and so wear shorts, and it almost seems like my leg muscles don't want to fully fire and I have trouble hitting my normal paces.  Maybe there's some shivering action that you don't realize is going on?  Blood flow issues?  We need more doctors in the thread.

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

You're definitely right that it's more than just temperature.  On a perfectly calm sunny winter morning in the 20's, I might entertain the idea of shorts.  Same temperature but no sun and 20mph wind and I'm thinking about extra layers for the groin area.  I'm curious as to how the snow factors in, though - I never consider snow or lack thereof?

Also, as I mentioned before, I feel like length of run is a big factor.  If I'm only going for 30-40 minutes, I might overdress just because I don't feel like dealing with the 10 minutes of discomfort at the beginning, and by the time I'm getting overheated I'm done.  Try to do the same thing for a 90 minute long run and you're stuck in a sine wave of suck between sweating and freezing.

Your average annual snowfall is 29". Ours is is 72". You're correct to not expend any time nor energy on it. For me, means of survival. :lol:

But if you're curious just for general knowledge purposes this is a good, brief primer. 

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1 minute ago, Dr_Zaius said:

I know exactly what you're talking about.  I hate being cold in the torso or feet but cold legs don't bother me too much.  I have run into some times in the winter where I try to do intervals and so wear shorts, and it almost seems like my leg muscles don't want to fully fire and I have trouble hitting my normal paces.  Maybe there's some shivering action that you don't realize is going on?  Blood flow issues?  We need more doctors in the thread.

Yep.  And since the tights don't bother me, I just ended up wearing them more and found I did better.  I never tested it out, though.

And I know that @gruecd guy likes to rail against it, but the reason I wear shorts over tights is for pockets.  If I know there's a good chance I'm taking the hat and/or gaiter off, I want pockets to throw it in and able to put back on if need be. 

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13 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The worst thing isn't the cold.  It's the lack of sun and/or wind with it.  If it's sunny and 15, that's still a good day and much better than 35-40 with gray skies and wind.

:yes:

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12 minutes ago, gruecd said:

Did a little speed session last night (loosely defined), and I struggled to do 4 x 800M repeats at paces I was using for multiple mile repeats last fall.  Hell, my first one was 6:31 pace, and previously I was closing out fast-finish long runs at that pace.  Ugh.  Went 3:16/3:13/3:08/3:04 with 2.5-minute jog recoveries, but it wasn't easy.

I've been doing plenty of mileage but very little quality, and in order to run fast, you obviously need to run fast.  I'm starting back up with my coach in early December, but how do you guys think I should approach the speedwork between now and then?

Once per week. Actual paces don't matter. Just make yourself suffer.

Timely post since this fairly well describes what I did yesterday. Basically whenever I got to a stretch of sidewalk that appeared somewhat (wet) leaf free I'd do a speed interval until the surface changed. How long of a rest after each interval just depended on how long that interval was - and when I could find another clear stretch of sidewalk. 

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