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Yenrub

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High-risk play-calling doesn't appeal to Eli Manning

 

Thought I'd post this because that mindset is a stark contrast to the Manning of old. That Manning was a disciple of the Kevin Gilbride run-and-shoot option offense, who trusted his receivers unfailingly that if he threw it up where his receiver could make a play, he would. This Manning is comfortable throwing shorter passes (although he kinda has no choice at times) and taking fewer risks, and it's part of the reason he's only thrown 1 INT this year. People are making him out to be a dink-and-dunk turnover machine, but the 2nd part of that just isn't true in 2018.

 

Of course, that philosophy leads to counterpoints like this:

 

Quote

 

But what's wrong with just throwing it to Beckham down the field or in coverage? Risky? Sure. But why not trust a player who just might be the NFL's best receiver to go and make plays. Manning has a completion percentage of 74.2, and he's thrown just one interception in four games. That's swell, but who cares? The Giants are 1-3.

Throw it to Beckham in double- and triple-coverage. Heave it to him downfield. Sometimes it'll get picked off. Sometimes he won't catch it. But it's a good bet that most of the time he will.

And that's especially true in the red zone, where Manning attempted seven passes on Sunday, completing four. You know how many went towards Beckham? None. In the third quarter, when the Giants were trailing only 19-7 and had a first-and-10 at the New Orleans 14, Manning threw three passes. He didn't look Beckham's direction on any of them. On two, he ran a decoy route, barely jogging as he got off the line.

It's no wonder Beckham looked so frustrated. It's no wonder, after the game, he said "I hate to get out there and waste those 60 minutes."

And that's exactly what this is quickly becoming - a great, big waste. If Beckham isn't going to be the centerpiece of the Giants' offense, the guy they trust in the red zone, the guy they throw it to in key situations, then it's going to lead to a waste of a season, a waste of a truckload of money, and waste of one of the last years of Manning's career. He is one of the biggest playmakers in the league. He should be used that way.

Because it really is a waste if he's not.

 

It's a tough balance between ball control and feeding your best receiver with the time Eli is given. But the Giants absolutely have to find a way to get the ball to their two best offensive players... that means 17-20 carries for Saquon Barkley and more schemed deep shots for Odell Beckham Jr. For that to happen the line has to be more consistent in both phases of the game, run and pass blocking. 

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On 10/1/2018 at 11:02 AM, The Frankman said:

I made the point in the Game thread that while the O-Line is better than it was the first 2 weeks, Halapio's injury is an sbsolute KILLER. You could see in the game the pressure started coming up the middle more instead of the RT position (where Flowers used to line up and where Wheeler is). A game where the Saints were vulnerable deep... Giants couldn't find success deep because of the O-Line not buying Eli enough time and Eli missing a few throws. It's a shame because for 2.5 quarters the D stood on its head to limit the Saints to 4 FGs.

Barkely with only 10 carries in a game that was one possession for a long time is criminal  

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1 minute ago, Yenrub said:

Barkely with only 10 carries in a game that was one possession for a long time is criminal  

Yeah Shurmur admitted he messed up bad there. At least Giants may get back Vernon and Apple, plus Mauro is off suspension now.

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4 minutes ago, The Frankman said:

Yeah Shurmur admitted he messed up bad there. At least Giants may get back Vernon and Apple, plus Mauro is off suspension now.

I hope getting those guys back makes a difference (of course they don’t play offense and that’s been the biggest issue)

I’m driving over to see the game in person, so it would be nice to for them to get a win for a change.

I would rather watch it on TV but my daughter has never been to a NFL game and she just HAS to see Odell & Saquaon

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4 hours ago, Yenrub said:

I hope getting those guys back makes a difference (of course they don’t play offense and that’s been the biggest issue)

I’m driving over to see the game in person, so it would be nice to for them to get a win for a change.

I would rather watch it on TV but my daughter has never been to a NFL game and she just HAS to see Odell & Saquaon

Taking my 11 year old daughter to her first NFL game as well. Should be fun. Rooting for the Panthers though.

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OBJr. was really pissed this week that the O that is trying to keep Eli Manning upright isn't taking more risks. FOr teh record, I think this is the week Shurmur goes full "Feed The Studs: and we see a lot of Barkley and Beckham.

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On 9/23/2018 at 10:06 AM, Yenrub said:

Flowers benched, Chad Wheeler to start at RT  today

"Giants will release OT Ereck Flowers if he is not traded by 4 p.m. Tuesday, per source." -Schefter

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3 hours ago, kodycutter said:

"Giants will release OT Ereck Flowers if he is not traded by 4 p.m. Tuesday, per source." -Schefter

I wonder why he was released now. I don't think they have a swing tackle on the roster. 

I haven't seen anything about him being a problem in the locker room since he was benched 

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3 hours ago, Yenrub said:

I wonder why he was released now. I don't think they have a swing tackle on the roster. 

I haven't seen anything about him being a problem in the locker room since he was benched 

Longest tenured starting O-linemen with the team is...Chad Wheeler.    Think about that.     Thank you very much Jerry Reese.

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I am guessing the Flowers that got himself benched in the final game last year showed up again. I am guessing that either his attitude or words in the locker room sealed his fate. I am clearly speculating, but it is odd that Schurmur and Gettlemen got to the end of the rope now, in mid-season.

 

Either way, I am glad he is gone.

 

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Olivier Vernon (ankle) was removed from the Week 6 injury report and will play Thursday night against the Eagles.

 

It will be Vernon's season debut after missing the first five games with a high-ankle sprain. The Giants are tied with the Raiders for last in sacks.

Should rotate in rather than play major snaps, also Engram is OUT but should play next week.

Edited by The Frankman

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4 hours ago, King of the Jungle said:

Trade for Teddy Bridgewater, cut Eli. 

I don’t think the Giants have the resources (draft picks) or cap room to trade for Bridgewater right now

They don’t have a 3rd round pick next year because they used it in the supplemental draft

I think Eli has a 22 million cap hit next year, not sure if that changes if Eli decides to retire before the Giants cut him.

I guess they will look at the top QB’s in the draft this year. And look to free agency for RG & RT

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I saw a clip of Schumur on the sidelines saying "Throw the ball" after multiple Eli checkdowns.  Sometimes I feel Eli just doesn't look OBJ's way just to piss him off more for all the junk he talks.

Was hoping for some garbage time but didn't get it.  Every third down the Eagles converted, Giants should have had 3-4 more possessions than they did.

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6 hours ago, King of the Jungle said:

Trade for Teddy Bridgewater, cut Eli. 

I don't think Bridgewater is the answer ... he would likely be an upgrade of Eli at this point but not the future

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29 minutes ago, rickyg said:

SUCK FOR HERBERT OREGEON?

You mean ...Suck for the Duck !

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https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/10/15/patriots-chiefs-tom-brady-nfl-fmia-week-6-peter-king/?cid=rotoworld


 

Quote

 

t. Tell me what this list of players is: Aaron Ross, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Jason Pierre-Paul, Prince Amukamara, David Wilson, Justin Pugh, Odell Beckham Jr., Erick Flowers, Eli Apple, Evan Engram. It’s the list of former Giants GM Jerry Reese’s 11 top draft picks in his tenure running the Giants, apropos with New York’s firing of Flowers last week for poor play.

u. So only three of these 11 players drafted to be cornerstones remain with the Giants: Beckham, Apple and Engram. Engram, the promising tight end, has missed the last three weeks with a knee injury. Apple has started 22 games in three seasons, but it’s unlikely he’s a long-term keeper. Beckham is an excellent receiver, and almost as good as an incendiary device. So sort of a rough list for Reese—and an illustration why Dave Gettleman is the GM today.

x. Giants left tackle Nate Solder, the pricey one, looks like he’s not healthy.


 

In fairness, Ross looked like he'd be pretty good before injuries. Phillips was a hard hitter but never took the next step people thought he'd make. Nicks got hurt, Wilson ditto. Flowers playing hurt his rookie season I feel contributed to his suckitude now. But the point is made, Reese drafted turribly. IT will take another year or two of drafting to restock the Giants' depth. Solder not looking healthy is a new one, did anyone see anything about him being hurt?

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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25058936/pat-shurmur-new-york-giants-no-regrets-2-point-attempt-loss

https://www.sny.tv/giants/news/new-york-giants-takeaways-from-week-7s-loss-to-the-falcons/299505178

 

Quote

 

The math backs up Pat Shurmur's decision to go for two down eight points with less than five minutes to go. Going for it then gives Shurmur an informational advantage. If the Giants convert, then on their next touchdown they know they only need to kick a PAT to take the lead (assuming no other scores). If they fail, which they did, they have an opportunity to go for it again to tie. The long and short of it: converting once is much more likely than failing twice.

...

The Giants ended up failing on the first two-point conversion attempt and converting the second. It proved irrelevant because the Falcons kicked a field goal in between.

 

At the end of the day, I still feel you guys are arguing the wrong issue. Giants ran the first two-point play, got the guy open and Eli threw a strike to OBJr. ... and he flat dropped it. I find that more troubling than anything else. Also:

Quote

 

Maybe the more costly late-game decisions came with less than a minute left to play. Down 23-12, they had the ball at the Atlanta 1-yard line with 45 seconds remaining. That's when Eli Manning ran a quarterback sneak and was stuffed on first down. Second down was a repeat as valuable time ticked off the clock.

The Giants were finally forced to throw on third down, when Manning connected with Odell Beckham for a touchdown with five seconds remaining. They converted the two-point conversion to make it 23-20, but without much time left.

"We got to get them in, right? We got to sneak it from the 1," Shurmur said. "I don't ... again I just saw a mush pile there, so I don't know why it didn't work. But from the 1-yard line there, we got to get it in."

Shurmur wouldn't have preferred a pass in that situation to protect from getting stuffed and the clock ticking.

"No, that's a defeatist deal," he said. "You should be able to convert on a sneak. We've all seen him do that, and for whatever reasons we didn't get it done."

After years of not being asked to do quarterback sneaks under Tom Coughlin and Ben McAdoo, that has been a staple of the Giants' offense this season. And they have been generally successful.

The weird thing is that somehow Shurmur called for Eli to sneak it... That's as odd as the playcalls in the 3rd quarter 2nd and goal.

Quote

What a strange series of plays early in the third quarter, after Manning -- of all people -- ran seven yards down to the Falcons 1. That's usually where good teams just power it in from there, right? But clearly Giants coach Pat Shurmur is afraid of his offensive line. On third and goal from the 1 he runs a jet sweep to Barkley -- basically a stretch run to the outside. It of course doesn't work. Then on fourth and goal he calls for a rollout pass that ends up being broken up. He moved the play away from his line both times.

 

Edited by The Frankman

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Actually thought the Giants looked pretty good last night, outside that o-line. They were getting smoked left and right. That sack where Takk bull rushed Solder to the inside and basically tackled him and Eli was flat out embarrassing. 

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4 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

Actually thought the Giants looked pretty good last night, outside that o-line. They were getting smoked left and right. That sack where Takk bull rushed Solder to the inside and basically tackled him and Eli was flat out embarrassing. 

That's the biggest issue plaguing the Giants now; the rush is coming up the middle where before it was mainly on the outside. Once Halapio went out for the year they tried Greco at C and he was getting killed. They tried Spencer Pulley, a highly rated OL from the Eagles and Chargers but that didn't seem to work because Greco at guard was still getting beat and Pulley looked bad. Solder has been nowhere near his play from last season.

Edited by The Frankman

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two point decision cost them the game....

with a seven point deficit, I don't know that Atlanta has the stones to kick a 56 yarder...

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3 minutes ago, Rove! said:

two point decision cost them the game....

with a seven point deficit, I don't know that Atlanta has the stones to kick a 56 yarder...

? Tavecchio had that kick from 60, he's always have a big leg from the Raiders. And Quinn already stated he felt comfortable from that distance. I'd argue getting stuffed 2nd and goal on the 1 was a bigger tipping point.

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12 minutes ago, The Frankman said:

? Tavecchio had that kick from 60, he's always have a big leg from the Raiders. And Quinn already stated he felt comfortable from that distance. I'd argue getting stuffed 2nd and goal on the 1 was a bigger tipping point.

they wasted too much time at the goal line....

I think there is a big difference between an 8 or a 7 point deficit in making the call to attempt that FG and risk giving the Giants the ball at midfield...GT has a strong leg, but he also hasn't attempted an NFL kick this year....big risk...having the cushion of the Giants needed a TD AND a conversion, I am sure, changes the math on what the right decision is there ...

 

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57 minutes ago, Rove! said:

they wasted too much time at the goal line....

I think there is a big difference between an 8 or a 7 point deficit in making the call to attempt that FG and risk giving the Giants the ball at midfield...GT has a strong leg, but he also hasn't attempted an NFL kick this year....big risk...having the cushion of the Giants needed a TD AND a conversion, I am sure, changes the math on what the right decision is there ...

 

Dan Quinn is an aggressive coach and Atlanta typically goes for aggression. If you want math, math says end the game right there as opposed to having a D that was having ... moderate  issues stopping the Giants.

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46 minutes ago, The Frankman said:

Dan Quinn is an aggressive coach and Atlanta typically goes for aggression. If you want math, math says end the game right there as opposed to having a D that was having ... moderate  issues stopping the Giants.

you very ell may be right.....

the call/ penalty on Apple when they had Atlanta inside the 10 was a killer too

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What in the world?

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1054775193124683777

 

Quote

Saints acquired CB Eli Apple from the Giants.

 

The Saints were reportedly in the market for Cardinals CB Patrick Peterson, but it does not seem like Arizona is open to moving their star corner. Apple had a rocky run in New York and is not near Peterson's level, but he has played pretty well this season. This is a good get for New Orleans at a great price. Following this trade, the Saints are now without their first-, third-, and fourth-round picks in the 2019 draft.

Sudden much?

Edited by The Frankman

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2 minutes ago, The Frankman said:

Wow. That's not much of a return. Is he going to be a free agent or something, or is his rookie deal over after the year? Sounds like the GM is jettisoning Reese's reach.  

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31 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Wow. That's not much of a return. Is he going to be a free agent or something, or is his rookie deal over after the year? Sounds like the GM is jettisoning Reese's reach.  

Apple is maddeningly inconsistent. Plays well one week, terrible the next. If Saints can keep the bad weeks to a minimum it works for them.

35 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

Is his mommy going with him?

You mean the one with brain cancer? Classy.

 

EDIT: I should state she had a brain tumor in Novermber 2017 removed, and had to be in recovery for months... she does not have cancer now.

Edited by The Frankman
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1 minute ago, The Frankman said:

Apple is maddeningly inconsistent. Plays well one week, terrible the next. If Saints can keep the bad weeks to a minimum it works for them.

You mean the one with brain cancer? Classy.

My brother is a huge Giants fan. He seems to think he's okay, but I was there when they made the pick and he was stunned by it. He didn't care much for Reese, though.  

If the bolded is true, and the poster knew it, ooooof, 

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5 minutes ago, The Frankman said:

Apple is maddeningly inconsistent. Plays well one week, terrible the next. If Saints can keep the bad weeks to a minimum it works for them.

You mean the one with brain cancer? Classy.

Hadnt followed the story. Just remember the video of her dropping him off at his first practice.

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Apple is the No. 55-ranked cornerback in the NFL by Pro Football Focus, which is good enough for tops on the Giants.

 

By trading Apple, the Giants saved about $1 million in salary cap space in 2018 and $2.5 million in 2019. The Giants would have had to decide by next May whether to pick up the fifth-year option on Apple for the 2020 season.

Hmmm... still stunning because they don't have depth right now. I mean I know they're making room for CB Sam Beal next season, but still.

Edited by The Frankman

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33 minutes ago, fruity pebbles said:

Is his mommy going with him?

Exactly and I mean exactly, what do you mean by this?

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Exactly and I mean exactly, what do you mean by this?

Simple misunderstanding that is cleared up now, he didn't know she was sick back then.

Edited by The Frankman

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Just now, Joe Bryant said:

Explain what you mean here. Use your words here. 

Exactly what I said above. Remembered the talking heads laughing at him when his mom dropped him off at his first practice. Had no idea she was diagnosed with cancer later on, I don’t follow the Giants. I’ve never been a troll on these boards. Never had any kind of suspension. Why don’t you cancel my membership, spend too much time here anyways. Save the tough guy routine.

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Just now, fruity pebbles said:

Exactly what I said above. Remembered the talking heads laughing at him when his mom dropped him off at his first practice. Had no idea she was diagnosed with cancer later on, I don’t follow the Giants. I’ve never been a troll on these boards. Never had any kind of suspension. Why don’t you cancel my membership, spend too much time here anyways. Save the tough guy routine.

Thanks. Send an email to help@footballguys.com and they'll take care of it. Sorry it didn't work out. 

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5 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Send an email to help@footballguys.com and they'll take care of it. Sorry it didn't work out. 

Joe - Why so quick to alienate your paying customers? Those DFS partnerships must really be paying well! The poster said nothing wrong yet here you are playing tough cop. It’s a bad look dude. Just being honest. 

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4 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Joe - Why so quick to alienate your paying customers? Those DFS partnerships must really be paying well! The poster said nothing wrong yet here you are playing tough cop. It’s a bad look dude. Just being honest. 

Not at all. I got reports we were allowing people to mock a mother with cancer. We take those seriously. I asked quickly for him to explain what he meant exactly. I have no idea who here pays or not. And that makes zero difference in what we allow people to post. He asked to cancel and I said ok. 

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I think that cooler heads can prevail here. I'm also not sure why people reported without waiting for a chance for him to explain himself. fruity, no need to leave, man. You explained yourself, and adequately in the end. Don't let your fun get ruined by this.  

My two cents since I sort of made a comment about what he said, though I didn't report. At all. 

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5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I think that cooler heads can prevail here. I'm also not sure why people reported without waiting for a chance for him to explain himself. fruity, no need to leave, man. You explained yourself, and adequately in the end. Don't let your fun get ruined by this.  

My two cents since I sort of made a comment about what he said, though I didn't report. At all. 

No worries. All good. 

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1 hour ago, rockaction said:

I think that cooler heads can prevail here. I'm also not sure why people reported without waiting for a chance for him to explain himself. fruity, no need to leave, man. You explained yourself, and adequately in the end. Don't let your fun get ruined by this.  

My two cents since I sort of made a comment about what he said, though I didn't report. At all. 

I thought everyone knew about Apple and his mom deal, but maybe that's just in the Giants bubble I'm in. ?‍♂️

As far as the trade, I'll take a 4th. Rumors he was going to get cut outright in the offseason. Just another Reese dud for the list.

Edited by Jed
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3 minutes ago, Jed said:

I thought everyone knew about Apple and his mom deal, but maybe that's just in the Giants bubble I'm in. ?‍♂️

As far as the trade, I'll take a 4th. Rumors he was going to get cut outright in the offseason. Just another Reese dud for the list.

Ah, I see. I've seen him post for years and that would be surprising for him to do that. 

As far as the 4th and 7th, that's what I was trying to suss out. Contract status, whether he was going to get cut or not, was Gettleman wanting to bring in his guys, etc.  

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Lions acquired NT Damon Harrison from the Giants in exchange for a fifth-round pick.

 

The Lions' defense has been bulldozed for a league-high 5.3 YPC this season and were in the market for any help up the middle. Regarded as one of the league's best run-stoppers, "Snacks" should assist in the trenches immediately. Harrison has notably garnered Pro Football Focus' No. 4 grade among 169 qualifiers on the interior in run defense this season. He figures to play over Sylvester Williams in the old Alan Branch role in coach Matt Patricia's defense. Harrison is already the second domino to fall for the re-building Giants, following in the footsteps of recently-shipped CB Eli Apple.

Giants expected to get major cap relief, which is why it's only a 5th. My reaction

 

EDIT: Full breakdown here

Quote

According to Vacchiano, the move will clear roughly $4.5 million off the salary cap.

Vacchiano notes that while the return for Harrison seems light, it's actually about right given his age (29) and amount of money remaining on his contract. The 24-year-old Apple netted the Giants a fourth-round pick in 2019 and seventh-round pick in 2020. 

Harrison is in the third year of a five-year, $46.25 million deal he signed before the 2016 season.

He is earning $7.75 million this season, and will make $6.75 million in 2019 ($8.6 million cap hit) and $9 million in 2020 ($10.85 million cap hit) before being eligible for unrestricted free agency.

Giants are trying to load up on mid-round picks to fix depth issues or set themselves to move up in the draft. #SuckfortheDuck

Edited by The Frankman
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Draft picks and cap space. Keep 'em coming,I'll brush off this season. Sometimes it's interesting to watch a rebuild.:popcorn:

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